Liberalism is self defeating

Again you do not discuss the issues. I have said before my contempt for mush loosebowels stems from his hypocricy, his lies and disinformation.

I have given plenty of material on this thread to discuss issues with and other than unions you have simply refused.

Why not go back to the definition of a liberal I provided and discuss what it means or does not mean?

Why not go back and discuss the points of the Democratic party platform and discuss those issues?

Why not?

Grover instead of discussing me, why wont you discuss the issues?

WHY

Why do you continue to ONLY ever blame others for not discussing issues, when you in point of fact have not addressed the OP issues?

WHY

I told you it is the Liberal way of confusion and bifurcation, and that you are exhibiting those qualities proudly...

And you continue...

WHY

If you can not, or will not address the issues of Liberal fear of the truth, Liberal Socialist Agenda and the Liberal Desire for Control of ALL people, then I can not continue to respond to you as you are disrupting the thread and not on topic in your attempts to discuss only me...

Sorry Grover but you are FAR short of the wagon on this one...

Semper

The CURRENT facts are these..

They are simple and VERY easily understood...

1. Liberals want to CONTROL people.

2. Liberals want a MASSIVE government that rewards people for NOT working.

3. Liberals want SOCIALISM so bad they can taste it.

4. Liberals want MUSLIM foot washing stations, Government provided, but nothing Christian.

5. Liberals want to CONTROL the airways and what people listen to.

6. Liberals want to tax the people that make more MONEY then they do, but never themselves pay taxes.. (Loopholes for T.H. Kerry and T. Kennedy easily available via Google)

7. Liberals want to TAKE the PROFITS from corporations and DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEM.

8. Liberals want to ABOLISH at least one Constitutional Amendment.

What part of those 8 is not true?

Semper

That is such a big heaping stinking pile of bullhooey, every last word of it. I am amazed. Do I have to go back and repost everything on here again where I have tried to discuss issues?

Get it through your head... there are as many ways to be a liberal as there are to be a Christian or any other religion or ideology including conservatism.... IT IS NOT... I REPEAT IS NOT A MONOLITHIC STRUCTURE LIKE YOU SEEM TO BELIEVE. For every statement I would make about being a liberal there is a liberal out there who would vigoriously disagree with me.

BTW you have focused on me as well Semper... it is not nor has it been a one way street.

Try reading this thread: www.abovepolitics.com...


I just reread this whole post and at every step of the way I have most certainly tried to discuss the issues with you.

If you go back to the very first page on my second post I posted the accepted definition of liberal.

On my third post I posted what it meant to me.

On my fourth post I posted the Democratic party platforms...

AND that is just the beginning. I have discussed labor unions and I have tried to engage you in a discussion of your attitudes about liberalism which is BTW unavoidable given the nature of you initial offering so I do not see how you can say that I have not even attempted to discuss the issues when it is obvious that I have.




[edit on 24-6-2007 by grover]

there are as many ways to be a liberal as there are to be a Christian or any other religion or ideology

WOW

So it really is a religion with you people...

That explains a lot..

Again I ask...

What part of the list I provided is untrue?

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
1. Liberals want to CONTROL people.

2. Liberals want a MASSIVE government that rewards people for NOT working.

3. Liberals want SOCIALISM so bad they can taste it.

4. Liberals want MUSLIM foot washing stations, Government provided, but nothing Christian.

5. Liberals want to CONTROL the airways and what people listen to.

6. Liberals want to tax the people that make more MONEY then they do, but never themselves pay taxes.. (Loopholes for T.H. Kerry and T. Kennedy easily available via Google)

7. Liberals want to TAKE the PROFITS from corporations and DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEM.

8. Liberals want to ABOLISH at least one Constitutional Amendment.

What part of those 8 is not true?

Semper

So, on those counts, you get comfort from your conservative government...the one that calls your Constitution 'some goddam piece of paper'? And is rewriting your Bill of Rights as a series of suggestions?Dude, you're right...I just don't get it.

All I can say is that our Amercan cousins don't do anything half-assed. Both the liberals and the conservatives are over the top, and the depth of their separation is visceral. Our leading parties are much more centrist. For example, on the gay issue, the Conservatives were regarded as fascists because they would go no farther than to support civil unions, while the Liberals...well, most of them...were in support of gay marriages. South of the border, either attitude would get you ridden outta town on a rail in most jurisdictions.

But I'll still run a Tory off my land, just outta general principal.

[edit on 24-6-2007 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by semperfortis

there are as many ways to be a liberal as there are to be a Christian or any other religion or ideology

WOW

So it really is a religion with you people...

That explains a lot..

Again I ask...

What part of the list I provided is untrue?

Semper

No I did not say that and you know it... I was using an analogy; I am sure you know what that is.... if you are going to quote me quote me correctly:

"there are as many ways to be a liberal as there are to be a Christian or any other religion or ideology including conservatism"

As for the list the whole thing is a pack of lies and propaganda.

BTW the only ones responsible for what the ACLU does are its board of Directors. There are times I agree with them and times I throughly disagree with them... they do not speak for all liberals.... they attempt for better or worse to make sure the laws of the land are applied equally. And for the record they have even come to the assistance of Jerry Falwell and other groups and religions both conservative and liberal, Christian and non Christian.

You mean the same tax loopholes that wealthy conservatives take full advantage of as well?






[edit on 24-6-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by semperfortis
The CURRENT facts are these..

They are simple and VERY easily understood...

1. Liberals want to CONTROL people.

2. Liberals want a MASSIVE government that rewards people for NOT working.

3. Liberals want SOCIALISM so bad they can taste it.

4. Liberals want MUSLIM foot washing stations, Government provided, but nothing Christian.

5. Liberals want to CONTROL the airways and what people listen to.

6. Liberals want to tax the people that make more MONEY then they do, but never themselves pay taxes.. (Loopholes for T.H. Kerry and T. Kennedy easily available via Google)

7. Liberals want to TAKE the PROFITS from corporations and DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEM.

8. Liberals want to ABOLISH at least one Constitutional Amendment.

What part of those 8 is not true?

Semper

(1) Gee what party wants to tell women that they cannot have an abortion or that gays that they can't marry or have the same rights as a married couple if they are in long standing relationships?

(2) Gee what two presidents have presided over the largest growth of government in recent history?
Answer: Reagan and bush minor... and Nixon wasn't far behind.

(3) Some liberals lean towards socialism and others don't. Again being liberal doesn't mean that we all subscribe to the same things... we don't.

(4) Answered that in the previous post.

(5) If you are referring to Josbecky's most recent thread... if you actually go read the article it says nothing even vaguely like that... it calls for a diversity of ownerships of radio stations and a diversity of opinions aired on it instead just right wing talk radio... unless you only want to hear things that reinforce your pre-existing ideas, a diversity of opinion is a good thing... it makes for an informed electorate.

(6) Responded to that in the previous post.

(7) Oh so its alright for large corporations to reap the profits of doing business in this country and have an off shore "headquarters" to get out of paying their fair share of taxes huh?

(8) What president referred to the constiuition as a GD piece of paper?
A: bush minor.

Just so you all know I'm in a good mood and therefore must be ornery.

Semper and Grover,

I've read and reread this entire thread and one thing is very clear to me; both of you care deeply about this country and it's people so you have that in common. Yes; it's true you two do agree on something.

It seems to be that you both have been sort of dancing around the issues; neither one of you for example like tax loopholes that allow some on both sides of the coin to avoid paying their fair share. I would like to emphasize fair share. Would you both agree that instead of the current tax system that a flat rate of 5% per taxpayer with no deductions would work? The government would then have to learn to live within it's means just as we all must and which I've noticed neither party seems able to do for one reason or another.

Would you both agree that social programs should be available to assist people back on their feet but not allow them to stay on welfare for generations? I would think 2-4 years while completing job training should be sufficient and perhaps while on these programs the people could perform what would amount to community service there by putting back something and having a sense of personal worth.

Elder care is something that both sides should be serious about. A society is judged on how it cares for it's elderly. We have elderly who have no family to care for them and are unable to afford medication, food and housing. That is a problem that must be addressed. I don't really care which side of the coin you fall on the care of our elderly is a national disgrace.

I fully agree that taking money from the wealthy solely because they are wealthy and redistributing it wrong in every way but there should be a way to ensure that every citizen is encouraged to make something of themselves. If however, a person refuses to work or obtain training so that s/he can obtain employment then I feel no obligation to support that individual. I also feel that family has an obligation of blood to support and help each other so that each member is able to be a contributing member of society. Semper, your Grandmother is such a shining example of that what an awesome lady and an example to all.

Anyway it's my opinion that both of you have the love of this country in common and perhaps that could be the launch point of liberals and conservatives to work together and achieve much.

I could not agree more... GH,

My only exception is I support the Fair Tax...

I have been involved in the Fair Tax for sometime now. I have attended numerous meetings and started things moving here in the FOP...

If people take the time to read the Fair Tax, it is clearly the best for all involved in the country...

Your premise is exactly in line with my beliefs and feelings on the subject..

I do believe that Grover loves the country...

It is just that his policies will Love it to DEATH....

Semper

I generally agree with you GH except on the flat tax... any form of flat tax or sales tax will inevitably fall hardest on the poorest. I would rather close ALL loopholes period for individuals and especially for corporations.

I have told semper before if he and I were to sit down over a few beers and chat I think he would find we have far more in common than he thinks.

Okay now I'm interested in your views on taxation. Let's be honest we all hate paying taxes but they are an evil reality. How would you fix our tax woes?

Semper, could you expand on the Fair Tax idea. To be honest I've never heard of it. It sounds interesting.

The Fair Tax is simple really....

but allow me to let the experts explain it...

These points address common questions regarding the FairTax plan:
􀀹 The FairTax is revenue neutral at $0.23 out of every retail dollar spent.
􀀹 The FairTax lowers the lifetime tax burden for most Americans.
􀀹 The FairTax benefits retirees who depend mostly on Social Security.
􀀹 The FairTax preserves the overall progressivity of the federal tax burden.
􀀹 The FairTax dramatically improves the U.S. economy.
􀀹 The FairTax improves the international competitiveness of American producers.
􀀹 The FairTax promotes home ownership better than the current system.
􀀹 The FairTax simplifies tax compliance, thereby reducing tax evasion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The FairTax rate of $0.23 out of every retail dollar spent on new goods or services works.
The Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University and Laurence Kotlikoff, Professor of Economics
and noted public finance expert at Boston University, recently teamed up to provide a sound
methodology for estimating the FairTax base and computing the FairTax rate.1

~~~~~~~~~~

The FairTax lowers the lifetime tax burden for most Americans.
In other research, Dr. Kotlikoff finds that the FairTax lowers marginal tax rates on work and
saving, cuts remaining average lifetime tax rates,5 and enhances overall progressivity.

~~~~~~~~~~

The FairTax benefits retirees who depend mostly on Social Security.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• Low-income households experience a 26.7 percent welfare gain under the FairTax
• Middle-income households experience a 10.9 percent welfare gain
• High-income households experience a 4.7 percent welfare gain
This is a very progressive long-run outcome.
Fair Tax Fundamentals

As you will read, it eliminates ALL Federal Taxes, Income and FICA and Welfare, replaces them with a tax on NEW purchases.... There is also an "Offset" payment the Government will send to EVERY person and family to offset "Necessary" items.. That amount is dependent on the number of people in the family from 1 to whatever...

This has been studied by the finest economic minds in the country and they have yet to find true fault with it... The problem with it is it removes some amount of control from the government and so the Liberals are REALLY against it and even many Conservatives...

If you read the info provided you will see the MASSIVE benefits...

Semper

And pray tell how does a poor person or family benefit when sales taxes inevitably fall hardest on the poor?

Semper,

That sounds pretty darn good however good luck getting both sides to agree to it. Neither side wishes to give up control of us the taxpayer and where the money goes. Would property taxes also be eliminated? Here is our area those have gone out of sight; many of our seniors who have lived and worked here all their lives can no longer afford to own their own homes. That seems unfair to me owning a home is part of the American Dream and to be forced to leave your home; the home you raised your family in is just plain wrong. Do you have any ideas how that could be lowered if not eliminated?

[edit on 24-6-2007 by gallopinghordes]

Grover,

How about a flat tax ranging from let's say 5% for people who make 65,000 and above, 2.5% for incomes between 30,000 to 64,999 with no taxes for those who make less then 30,000 combined income per year? I know that I would pay far less tax under that then I do now as would most.

I'm just pulling those percentages out of the air they could go higher or lower as needed. But the best solution is for the government to learn to live within it's means.

[edit on 24-6-2007 by gallopinghordes]

You have to read it Grover....

It benefits the poor the most..

It is just plain common sense and EVERY one receives a "Payout" especially the POOR...

You have to read it first though to understand what your talking about..

Semper

Semper,

I think the Fair Tax is certainly an improvement over what we now have of convoluted rules and loopholes. How would you convince the government to implement it? We can both agree I believe that many currently in government would be reluctant to give up the current tax system and the control it affords.

How do we implement change?

Bye the bye Good Morning all.

I still think if you closed all the loopholes, especially for corporations the current system would work, after all its the loopholes, tax credits and small details that make it so cumbersome in the first place... I say set reasonable amounts of tax based on the income brackets of individuals and families and that is it period. The key word there is reasonable. I think that is is so wrong that Joe Blows Iraq reconstruction war profiteer company for example hasn't paid taxes in years thanks to loopholes or off shore "headquarters yet year after year gets money back. I also am opposed to farm subsidies that for the great part bypass small family farms and go to ADM and company. Simply put my attitude is if you do business in America you pay taxes in America no ifs ands or buts and I also think that American companies that ship jobs overseas or out source them leaving American workers high and dry should be penalized because point blank in doing so they are putting profits first and their country somewhere further down the list.

To claim that to take away incentives and tax cuts and loopholes for large businesses and corporations would be to hurt them and encourage them to take their business elsewhere is disingenious... no company is going to abandon the largest economy in the world just because they have to pay their fair share.

[edit on 25-6-2007 by grover]

Also if you really want to save money for the taxpayers in this country, pull out of Iraq for one, eliminate ALL foreign bases and ALL foreign aid... if we are going to have bases, have them here and support our local economies. During the Republican led (yes despite lies to the contrary it was Republican led and was started under Bush senior, and completed under Clinton. Remember the peace dividend we never got?) downsizing of the military after the end of the cold war they shut local bases when they should have been shutting foreign ones. Then reduce our military to a reasonable size. After all we spend more on our military then our top 5 competitors combined. No one is going to invade the United States (except Mexicans) we are too strong and even the Chinese don't have the whereforto. And the most important ingredient... mind our own bloody business in the world and stop trying to reshape it... get it through our heads that we don't have the right to even try and they don't want it.

Eliminate foreign bases.
Eliminate Foreign aid.
Downsize the military to a reasonable size.
Mind our own business.

NOW those really are conservative principles despite what those who call themselves conservative maintain.