Liberalism is self defeating

Siege, In a perfect world unions wouldn't be necessary but this is far from a perfect world. I work for the state in corrections. Our Director has stated that he doesn't want a work force that stays til retirement. He would like to implement policies that would essentially force out officers who have worked in the prison for 20 plus years. I've been there over 17 years and until we closed the shop and went Teamsters I had never had a pay raise over 2 percent and every time they did give us the raise they raised our health care premiums and we ended up getting less on our checks. This year we are getting a large pay raise that still puts us under parity but at least it is a start. We have a very specific contract that spells out what can and can't be done; it's very clear. Yet as a Shop Steward I have to remind managers to follow the contract. It's not new; its the same one for the last two years. Without the Union I would be forced out of my job; I would have no benefits and no retirement. Yet; if the state treated us fairly we would never have voted the Teamsters in.

Semper; I know you truly believe that without Unions corporations would treat the work force fairly but that just isn't true. Don't believe me take a look at Wal-Mart and watch the movie "The High Price of Low Prices." It might make you think. I avoid shopping at Wal-Mart because of how they treat employees. Yes, I know what they do first hand. When my sister was injured on the job they moved her to a lesser paying job and cut her hours which elminated her health insurance. Caring employer? I think not.

Notice, Gallopinghordes, you and I are public sector. A training session I had the other day pointed out that this is the only part of the workforce in which union membership is increasing. Fact is, a lot of unionised jobs...industrial sector jobs...have gone offshore

Xpert,

Of course you don't want to deal with the fact you claim you want the government to leave you alone and yet (there are signs of change which is good ) the Conservative movement in the US wants to do otherwise. Such things don't fit your argument so you just ignore them.

If you truly believe that than either....

1. You have never read any of my posts

or

2. You just really have no idea to whom you refer

Either way, apparently my concepts are either unclear to you, or you have a basic inability to understand the principles I reference..

GH,

Semper; I know you truly believe that without Unions corporations would treat the work force fairly but that just isn't true.

That is not my contention at all my friend.... Not even close....

How the corporations treat anyone should be irrelevant to anyone that wishes to succeed....

It is MY responsibility to make myself attractive to any work force... It is NOT the corporations responsibility to hire me if I am not competitive. It is not their responsibility to keep me employed if I am failing to meet their standards, regardless if they change them or not....

It IS the responsibility of each and every one of us to provide for our own individual future... At what point did the government become the nursemaids to the populace?

Seeing the writing on the wall, I have been preparing for a retirement, either early, or late, for 30 years...
At any point I could lose my job, if that devastates me, is it the governments fault? NO and NO... it is mine..
Anyone doing less deserves what they get and fully deserves their future... I hope it is a full one, and that no tragedy strikes...because I will NEVER support the government supporting anyone...

I apologize if this hurts anyones feelings, but to depend on the government for your future is the ultimate expression of foolish..and plain stupid..

This thread was not really about unions, though I am against them, I can understand their use in the past and even some limited use now.... This is about those individuals that think they can TELL someone how much money they can make, how much is obscene... Of course as I stated before, if they were making it, it would never be obscene, only when it is someone else....

That form of Liberalism is Hypocrisy at its shiny best...

It is about those that either do not want to exert the effort to provide for themselves, or feel the government owes them a living... That the government should just provide to us all and individuals are wrong for wanting to succeed, if they succeed too far of course...

The hatred and animosity expressed toward Rush Limbaugh is fully understandable on reading the posts here. The reasons the liberals choose to call him names and ridicule what he does.. It is because he is successful and speaks common sense.. He is I guess OBSCENELY successful so of course he makes too much money for the liberals to stomach.. He has the largest listening audience in the history of radio, but all those millions have to be wrong and the few of you right.. HMMMMMMM Again, the common sense issue raises it's ugly head...

The comments recently about silencing talk radio, it is clear in it's intent and understandable.... Liberalism like any infestation, must hide from light. Talk radio shines the light of common sense on the stupidity of Liberalism...

It is about the very real and most destructive force in this country, Liberalism..

Here is a FINE example of Liberalism at it's very best..

The ACLU, Liberalism's cult club, the same organization that takes the 10 commandments out of courtrooms, is supporting the use of Public Tax Dollars to install Muslim foot washing stations in the University of Michigan...

WOW!!

But there you go..... The only wrong religion is Christianity, at least to liberals who will gladly placate Muslims at the expense of our tax dollars, but fight to abolish any Christian icon in existence...

Liberalism truly is the religion of hypocrisy...

Semper

It's true that it is our responsibility to make ourselves attractive to the employer (I try I really really do I mean I put on make up every day LOL). All kidding aside that's why I'm going back to college and why I'm putting my daughter through college. But Semper; why should I be forced out of my job when I've done nothing wrong but work there. I stay in shape and watch my health and complete all required training. I assist in the training of new officers despite the fact that during their initial training they are told NOT to listen to the senior officers. How stupid is that? Does the state want a riot? Now they are hiring 19 year old kids to manage inmate lives. Do I really need to say how well that is working?

I work in the public sector I do my job to the absolute best of my ability; I'm planning for my retirement and I've never even collected unemployment.

GH,

I agree that you should not be forced out, I think that is unfair and it stinks,
but yours is a different situation than .. say.. Microsoft or Exxon, you actually work for the Government.. You have no choice but deal with the Government.. Any other situation I would say the Government needs to STAY OUT OF IT....

There are ways you and your fellow employees can deal with that situation. Not knowing the full details, I am sadly ignorant of the situation, but "Collective Bargaining" comes to mind.... That is what got me an early retirement. The sitting down with ones employers and discussing the situation and possible ramifications of their actions.. We changed our contract and I retired at 40..

Again, not ALL unions are bad, just like not ALL Liberals are bad, just confused.. LOL

Semper

This is one of the most entertaining threads I have read in a long time.

Frankly, I find the use of all of the labels found in this thread utterly meaningless. In fact, the more I consider the matter, the more I’m convinced that ‘party’ or ‘ideological’ labels are what have brought us to this disgraceful point in our political history.

We want our politics in short digestible sound bites, where single words or phrases help demonize an opposing view and never resemble the truth…

Our brand of politics now dangerously converts simple political differences into a grotesque form of mental defect… As a nation, we have simply lost respect for one another… Maybe it has always been that way.

I know it’s a bit like complaining that water is wet, but it would be nice if the word “nuance” wasn’t such a dirty word.

We actually got Collective Bargaining about two years ago and at the same time closed the shop.

That's the only reason we got a raise this year and a settlement from the state when they charged us more for our health care premiums then they should have. That is actually a good example of how the state treats it's work force; when the over charge was discovered by the Union the state refused to pay back the money until the Unions threatened to take them to court and go to the press. Our retirement will improve over time at least I hope so but I'm not counting on it. The sad fact is an officer can't afford to buy a house on our wages. I got the last of the bargains when I bought mine. Improvement in conditions happen slowly and only because we are now united; at least now there is hope.

Originally posted by semperfortis
1. You have never read any of my posts

I have read your posts and I treat them on a post by post basis just like anyone else's.

2. You just really have no idea to whom you refer

How could I ?
You avoid the issues that don't suit your case when the issues get tough the political hacks like you get going.

Either way, apparently my concepts are either unclear to you, or you have a basic inability to understand the principles I reference..

I understand perfectly you expect workers to operate entirely in the Free Market but you chose to ignore or don't apply the same standard to the elements of the private sector that get hand outs from the US government.

Not a clue Xpert,

You either still can not grasp what I an talking about, or refuse to...

Whatever the case, your accusations as to myself, or any poster, having presented you with issues you either can not, or will not face, resort to name calling, "Political Hack", and the very Liberal sidestepping of an issue and attempts to confuse what others are talking about...

Don't you understand that the rest of us were engaged in a REAL conversation about REAL political issues and no one wanted to discuss whatever automotive grudge you have to grind? Take that to the Auto Forum where it belongs...

Because I did not want to degrade my part of the discussion and lower it to your level of "Car Talk" is no reason to resort to name calling... Besides we all know that the only ones that do, besides violating the T&C, are the ones that can not engage in the debate...

SO,

Please, professionalism from now on if you please, and to the topic....

Semper

WTF ?
Liberal sidestepping ?
For the record calling someone a partisan hack is no worse then calling someone a liberal or conservative.
Your so far off base that the topic isnt worth pursing unless other members are of course other members are welcome to deal with points I put forward. As for the topic deny ignorance people don't let the corrupt two party system and partisan hacks suck you into the poisonous partisan divided that is orchestrated so well by politicians and the media.

Originally posted by semperfortis

That is an absolute oxymoron. LOL

But, what do you expect?

Only if one is so preprogrammed by socialist influence to believe that WELFARE is CHARITY..

It is not

Not in any way shape or form

Semper

Hey Semp,

How many politicians do you think would be charitable if you take away the tax breaks for such charity...This isn't a conservative or liberal issue it's a political truth there is no difference in these groups.

TS,

I agree with you that the current crop of standing "Politicos" are basically the same. My thoughts expressed are in reference to basic foundational principles and the concepts that are "supposed" to be upheld by the parties....

Being completely honest, President Bush's stance on the Illegal Alien Amnesty Bill has destroyed my confidence in him.. At least on domestic issues...

The very idea that when over 80% of the American Public is AGAINST something and the politicians just continue to ram it down our throats, is disconcerting to say the least... and possibly treasonous.

See, the Governments job is .. IS.. to protect our borders, not to welfare us to death or redistribute our wealth...

So I really have no argument with your assessment of current politicians..

When the "rubber meets the road" we are all part and parcel a mixture of Conservative and Liberal. With the very rare exception, I have never met a complete Conservative or for that matter, a 100% Liberal. (Close at times)

It is all about basic beliefs...

I do not believe that ANYONE has the right to tell me what I can do, own or say within the constraints of the law... That those laws should be as unrestrictive as humanly possible...
That the Government has no business in our private lives what so ever. They should NEVER support us, never restrict our futures or ability to provide for ourselves at what ever level WE deem appropriate.. If I was 50 Yachts, that is my business...

So, no argument here TS, not with most of the current batch anyway..



Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis

I do not believe that ANYONE has the right to tell me what I can do, own or say within the constraints of the law... That those laws should be as unrestrictive as humanly possible...
That the Government has no business in our private lives what so ever. They should NEVER support us, never restrict our futures or ability to provide for ourselves at what ever level WE deem appropriate.. If I was 50 Yachts, that is my business...



Semper

Here Semper we are in complete agreement. Now if you could just understand the Union thing..........I do believe that within the bounds of what you said Unions have their place. They aren't part of the government and exist to help the workplace not hinder it. Government shouldn't support the citizens but temporary help in the form of welfare should be available and I do mean temporary; generations shouldn't be on it.