Liberalism is self defeating

Grover, good points. A huge portion of the outsourced jobs are things like telemarketing and transcriptionists, none of which have a union. Kind of proves it wrong to say that unions are responsible for outsourcing.

There are way too many people in this country who aren't making a living wage, yet work full-time or even 2 jobs, just to put food on the table.

As for the TVA, to be fair, yes they helped the South a great deal, but don't forget that they also took people's land away without paying them very much. I live in NE Tennessee and there are alot of people here who lost their land, people who had 2,000 acres that had been in the family for 200 - 300 years, they even took the family graveyard in some instances. Land was the only thing of worth these folks had and they weren't paid much for it.
That's the dark side of the TVA projects.

Originally posted by grover
As for outsourcing... unions are just an excuse, non-union jobs are being shipped overseas as well. The real culprit is a cut throat capitalism that puts profits above everything else; except of course obscene CEO pay.

I think it's partially because of rising wages and standards of living in America. Not to mention the discriminatory minimum wage, which prevents anyone whose abilities don't warrant that pay from getting employment. Then you have the massive tax by the government... And then the simple fact that operating costs are higher here.

That is why I said for all its (the TVA) faults Forest lady. There are some on here who are so dogmatic in their belief system that they cannot see good that government CAN (and often does) if it came up and bit them in the ass.

The reality is if government were so unremittingly bad we (the human species) would have found a better way of doing things.

That is why I said for all its (the TVA) faults Forest lady. There are some on here who are so dogmatic in their belief system that they cannot see good that government CAN (and often does) if it came up and bit them in the ass.

The reality is if government were so unremittingly bad we (the human species) would have found a better way of doing things.

When all the rhetoric is stripped away, the purpose of government is to provide a safe place to raise crops and children. The rest is merely icing on the cake. The question is, what is that a mandate for? Is it solely a mandate for internal policing and external defense leaving everything else up to a laissez-faire marketplace and the individual? Or, is it a mandate for broader social and environmental concerns as well? For the conservative the answer is yes to the first question. For the liberal the answer is yes to second also. Put another way, the conservatives claim the rights and freedoms of the individual are deemed paramount. For the liberal, the rights and freedom of the individual must segue with, and at some point give way to the greater concerns of community.

Originally posted by grover

I stand by that. Leaving everything up to the market place really is shortsighted on a good day.

There are some points about Unions that I would like to address. There are both pros and cons about Unionism and while I'm delighted to be a Teamster I'm not so blind that I can't see the faults as well.

Unions came into existence because big business were screwing the employees. They remain on the scene because corporations refuse to treat employees with respect and dignity in regards to fair wages and benefits. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions; but this is far from a perfect world. Unions fight for the rights of workers because individually we have no real power but as a whole we are indeed a force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately unions themselves became corrupt and themselves started bringing harm upon their members as in the case of Semper's family. Today however, we are policing our unions much better and illegal activities within aren't tolerated. Believe me Semper I have no problem reminding the Secretary-Treasurer of our local just who he works for. My dues pay his wages and he answers to all the members. You may not know this about me but I've no problem at all telling some one just exactly what the bear does in the woods. I believe strongly that a strong Union benefits both management and labor just as I understand that Unions have forced some businesses to close their doors. That is unfortunate and ultimately not the goal of unions.

I assure you I watch my Union's leadership closely and that ultimately is what keeps things in check.

Semper this might just make a fun debate. It is a subject I feel strongly on as do you. I enjoy being active in my Union and being a Shop Steward gives me a great deal of satisfaction.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by gallopinghordes]

1. The only good Government is one that leaves me alone..

The more and more that Government interferes in my life the more screwed it becomes. I am FAR and away to self reliant to ever NEED to be coddled by any group of people such as a Government.
I am responsible for my actions, my choices and I take the good with the bad and don't sit around on my duff waiting for the loving arms of the government to bail me out every time I make a bad decision.

That is NOT what the Government is for..

2. The only obscene profits, are the ones that YOU are not making...

The very comment "Obscene Profits" is indicative of a jealous and envious nature very unbecoming of a person. If you were making that money, you would not consider it obscene. YOU are all making obscene profits compared to third world countries, you going to give some back ??? NAW, those are your profits and so NOT obscene... You have as good a chance of making profits such as those, as anyone in America. If you choose a life of complaining because others are successful, and not one of becoming successful yourself, that is your choice.
That one statement alone is so very descriptive of the Socialist/Nazi/Fascist wanna-be's that have no regard for anyone except themselves and somewhat effectively hide that in false actions of caring for the underprivileged..


3. The BIG BAD business is "treading" on the poor workers....

Then they should seek employment elsewhere. No law against that. IT IS THEIR CHOICE to stay there. This is a BIG country and lots of places to go and make a living...

YOU choose to stay around your home where there may be a lack of work..
YOU choose to remain in employment where you are being taken advantage of...

I can tell you this, come here.... YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO DO THAT....
I went from low 20's to a 6 figure income in a little over 4 years...

YOU can choose to come here and do the same thing..

All your own choices, not the BIG BAD business...

Or you can sit around and complain that the Government is not doing for you what you should be doing for yourself.. SUPPORTING YOURSELF...
That way it is never your fault...

And what is the constant reference about domestic and foreign autos?????

Who cares!!!!!

What is a Foreign auto anyway???
Toyota? Made in the USA
BMW Made right here in South Carolina
NISSAN USA

So what is your point on the auto have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Semper

Wow, this is getting a little heated. Semper not every body can just pick up and move. In any case without influences by the workers businesses can and have kept wages low and benefits non-existent. That is where Unions come in. I consider my dues cheap insurance to maintain my standard of living where it is.

Also for the record, I've never expected the government to bail me out of anything. I expect it to do what it is supposed to do. I can and will continue to support myself. What I expect; no demand from my employer is fair treatment. As I said before I've earned everything I've ever gotten I've never asked for a hand out nor do I expect one. I've gone from working two jobs and cleaning other people's homes to owning my own home. Just because I support unions doesn't mean not even for an second that I don't pay my own way.

Semperfortis there aren't always other jobs available.
The problem is two fold first you once again somehow managed to miss my point how convenient ......
You see all these people who go around preaching the Free Market can be compared to a child they want to play the game but when they don't like the result they cry foul.

As for the US Car car makers they haven't been doing so well Goo gle search like I have already said somehow someone else's fault that US car makers aren't doing so well.

So you want to be left alone by the government so do I but you are forgetting that the beloved hallmark of US Conservatives the Republican party has become the party that wants to create a state ruled by the Christian version of the Taliban.

GH,

Not heated, just LIVELY!!!!
LOL

Nothing better than a good lively exchange of ideas...

As for wages and benefits, that is where the free market steps in... Business would have no choice in order to compete, if the government left it alone, than offer good wages and bennies, if they did not, workers would go to the business that did... Common sense..

The problem is in people that insist on working in one job, or one city. Statements such as "I should not have to move" are simply and perfectly self-defeating and the individuals choice..


Xpert,

Show me ANY city, ANY ONE where there are NO (0) jobs in the classified.. HINT.... You can't...

How is it that I missed your "point" when this is my first direct response to YOU????
I have been responding to Grover this entire time..

Child? Foul? What point is it you are trying to get out? That makes no common sense at all...

Oh the car thing... sorry... Using one single example of the massive industry in the United States to exemplify a socialist state is completely without merit.. As indicated by the foreign manufactures coming here to produce their vehicles, our free market system is STILL attracting business. The name plate on the vehicle is meaningless to a market..

The Christian comment is just paranoia and not worthy of this debate, Sorry...

Semper

So if the government is so bad Semper; why are you part of it?

As for obscene profits please don't tell me you are defending huge CEO pay while the people who actually do the work that earns him that, get squat?

Originally posted by grover

As for obscene profits please don't tell me you are defending huge CEO pay while the people who actually do the work that earns him that, get squat?

Just about anyone can put bolt A into hole B, just about anyone can flip a burger. Hells bells, the cash register tells the girl/boy how much change to give the customer back.

It's difficult to find some one who can keep a billion dollar company solvent. These people come up through the ranks of the business world. They have success after success and that is why they get the big bucks.

The funny thing is ( not funny haha but funny sad) that 50% of the people in the USA are/ or believe they need to be dependent on the "obese centralized government" for their welfare.

Roper

YAWN!!! Would somebody take that broken record off?

Yeah anybody can flip a burger true... but how many want to? Every employer I have had respect for worked their way up from dishwasher on... Every employer I had no respect for had some sort of degree that claimed he knew what he was doing and had spent his entire working life managing (or mismanaging) and couldn't even flip that burger much less put a round peg in a round hole.

It is not the managers that make this country work; its the people who do it. Don't you know if all the ditch diggers, muck shovelers and dishwashers took the day off this country would come to a stand still?

Originally posted by Roper
Just about anyone can put bolt A into hole B, just about anyone can flip a burger. Hells bells, the cash register tells the girl/boy how much change to give the customer back.

It's difficult to find some one who can keep a billion dollar company solvent. These people come up through the ranks of the business world. They have success after success and that is why they get the big bucks.

The funny thing is ( not funny haha but funny sad) that 50% of the people in the USA are/ or believe they need to be dependent on the "obese centralized government" for their welfare.

Roper

Mwoohahahaha...

You believe that? Every board member for the company i work at has wonderful idea's on how to make the company work "better", but at the end of the day, they have to listen to the front line staff on how to actually make it better.

All the grandiose plans they implement from the top down invariably fail in the long run, unless they "consult" the workers, then the initiative is usually much more successful.

I think it's kind of ironic that your against top-down government, but support top-down business practice.

Any board can increase revenue by cutting jobs, but at the end of the day, to make a business successful takes alot more than a few MBA's from some fancy pants Uni. Most of the successful businesses in the world value their employees and their input.

A rising tide lifts all boats only to the degree of how seaworthy the boats are in the first place.

The middle class in this country is shrinking and it is not because of unions and it is not because of illegal aliens and it is not because people would prefer being on welfare... the middle class is shrinking because of these so called managers who put profit before everything else and their stock holders that support them. As a result they downsize making fewer people do more with less, and out source jobs overseas, or hire illegals to do what they want for a pittance in comparison to what the average Joe gets paid.

AND still you idiots support them and still you idiots claim you support this country. Get it through your pointy little heads the middle class is shrinking and that does not bode well for this country and its not liberal policies doing it. Don't you understand the policies you support do not spread the wealth to the benefit for the country; it moves it up into the hands of the few? And, it is not because they have earned it; its because it has been given to them with tax cuts slanted that way.


[edit on 20-6-2007 by grover]

As for obscene profits please don't tell me you are defending huge CEO ou, Groverpay while the people who actually do the work that earns him that, get squat?

Are they slaves? Or are they working for the pay they were told they would earn doing the job they are doing?

More likely the second scenario and here is you, Grover, all up in the air because some poor poor worker, is making exactly what he was told he would make by the BIG BAD CEO... MAN YOU CRACK ME UP...

Of course you have now ruined all of my fun....

You got insulting with the Pointy Head Comment and the "idiots" comment... Your gonna get another warn there buddy.. careful...

Sad really, insults indicate either a weak argument or a direct inability to argue the point.. Now I know the argument you make is ridiculous, but I did think you believed in it, apparently not... And this was so much fun...

See your entire foundation is based on YOU telling someone else what is best for them.. JUST LIKE IN THE RIFLE THREAD.....

YOU and others like you have taken on GOD like powers and decided that Person 1 is not making enough money and person 2 is making too much money.... WOW What powers you must aspire too...

Liberalism is like that though, you all think you are omnipotent and have such wonderful ideas for all the rest of us.... When in reality you are weak in your arguments and the very foundation of your principles have been proven faulty again and again... All the conservative do now is wonder how long you all will beat that there dead horse.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And I work as a Police Officer because I want to do something positive for my fellow man as he.. GET IT .. (HE) goes about HIS business working where HE chooses for the money HE chooses to work for... I help him do his job so that HIS BOSS can make money and HIS BOSS all the way up to the CEO... I work as a Police Officer because I want the pay I WAS OFFERED... I don't cry because the Governor make a TON more than me.... He must be evil too huh? Just like those MONSTER CEO's HUH????

HOW DARE PEOPLE MAKE MONEY!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now please, no more insulting and childish outbursts and lets have some fun.. OK????

Semper

Semper and Grover : You both make very good points. I agree with both
of you at times, and disagree with both of you too at times.

Unfortunately, I believe in both liberalism and conservatism, and believe
the situation should dictate the decision-making.

I think unions have served their purpose, but are no longer necessary.
A person should not get paid better just because they're a member of a
union. Job performance should be the reason. Initiative, ambition, savvy.

I also feel the word "Elitism" is moving to the top of the list. The richer get
richer, the middle class begins its descent into the poorer class. CEOs
make salaries they basically do not earn, and like someone else said on
this thread, appreciation for investments far outweighs the appreciation
for labor. The "haves" versus the "have nots".

Hmm semperfortis you do realize that in an competitive job market it is very difficult to get job via an advertisement in a newspaper ?
Common sense should also tell you that if the number of people outwork is ever greater then the demand for jobs the market then workers would have to accept what ever is on offer .

You missed the point when you first comment about US auto makers and the price of eggs in China. Of course you don't want to deal with the fact you claim you want the government to leave you alone and yet (there are signs of change which is good ) the Conservative movement in the US wants to do otherwise. Such things don't fit your argument so you just ignore them.

Where a car is assembled doesn't effect how the make and model will do in the market place.

Now I am going to ask a question and I want you to give me a straight answer.
Do you regard the subsidies that the US government gives to farmers , drug companies e.t.c as a form of socialism ?

Originally posted by SIEGE

I think unions have served their purpose, but are no longer necessary.
A person should not get paid better just because they're a member of a
union. Job performance should be the reason. Initiative, ambition, savvy.

In a perfect world, seige, you'd be right. But this ain't it, and I've come to the solid conclusion that the only employers whose workforces unionise, are the ones that deserve it. If the workers are happy and fairly treated...why bother paying dues? Why organise?

I'm a tradesman in the public service. Our annual increases used to be tied to that of the professional cadre...less, but proportional. One year the 'big boys' got a raise, and we all got a pay cut. That's the year we became Steelworkers and that kinda crap came to an end with our first collective agreement. Cui bono?

I'm a Chief Steward. I help to 'police' the CA...a document which is signed by the employer and serves as the rules. Wanna know what the biggest problem here is? Poor management. Plain and simple. Mid-level bosses that ignore the rules and make it up as they go along. Mostly making people work for free...hell, the British Empire banned slavery 50 years before Lincoln, and I still have to remind folks that the law says you must pay for overtime.

I'm not all for 'putting it to the man'. Some union locals are and have been simply bad news, but the vast majority are not. Don't blame the global economic shift on unions. Blame it on greed. What are Chinese workers paid to make those shoes? What do they sell for here? Do the math. Cui bono?

Not sure what unions have to do with Liberalism...maybe just that it's now frowned upon to machine-gun organisers, but hey, even Pinkerton's had to start somewhere, right?

Originally posted by xpert11
H

Now I am going to ask a question and I want you to give me a straight answer.
Do you regard the subsidies that the US government gives to farmers , as a form of socialism ?

As a production agriculturist, I'll answer, yes. With out the Ag- subsidies you would be paying 10.00 $ for a loaf of bread.

I would like it that you payed that much. I would be in high demand. $$$$$

If it has a heart beat or grows in the ground, I can make it work.

If you really want to talk AG-subsidies, best start a new thread, it's a killer.

Roper

If I'm not mistaken, there is some kinda cross-border debate about Canadian subsidies which America contests...vis-a-vis the fact that the Mississippi transportation corridor keeps a'rollin' partly due to the 'subsidised' efforts of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Frankly, if we want to regulate some economies...lets get ours car sold in Asia instead of letting them dump here. Just wait 'til the Chinese get seriously on line in that regard!