Liberalism is self defeating

Semper as a moderate I will try to explain what that means; at least to me. I'm neither conservative nor liberal. I would define myself as pragmatic. As an example let's use welfare since that seems a hot button to most on this thread. I don't like welfare as it is now; but I can see the need for help to be available. Let's use my sister as an example; why because I can LOL. She was left to support two young children when my ex-brother in law went to prison (I thank the Good Lord he's an ex). She had zero job skills or work experience. She went on welfare and went to school to become a nurse; she completed a 3 year program in 2. Now while I have issues with her otherwise she only used welfare for 2 1/2 years to get on her feet and support her kids. When people use it like that I've no issue with that; however, when they stay on it forever and hatch out more kids that I have an issue with. There should be limits on welfare but it shouldn't be eliminated completely.

Let use another example medical care. It should be available for all and affordable. I'll now use my Dad as an example. When my Mother died of cancer back in 1990 he was almost wiped out. Both my parents believed that CHAMPUS would be there for their medical needs after all my Dad earned it. He is a vet who fought in 3 wars. Guess what it wasn't my Dad not only lost his wife but almost everything because of medical bills. We had to almost force him to go to the state for help. The state gave him medical coupons to pay the bill. Was the help he received charity? No and no again says I. He worked all his life he more then earned that help.

I'm moderate because in a perfect world social programs to help people wouldn't be needed but this isn't a perfect world so we do need programs to help. That being said those programs should indeed must be only a helping hand. However it should only be temporary help.

Like you Semper I learned the power of working hard and I believe I have achieved a great deal. But, would you agree that sometimes life deals you blows that even with all your hard work will destroy you if you don't have help? As a moderate I believe in people working hard to achieve their dreams but I'm not adverse to providing help as long as they are willing to work to achieve independence.

I believe that if people can visualize their dreams they can achieve them and indeed achieve greatness.

My lovely daughter is an example; she wants to help children who have been abused in every way possible the stories of these children would make your blood run cold. She started with her current employer as a volunteer in her senior year of high school she worked hard this year she is one of 6 full-time employees and next year is in line to run the program when it expands. She is only a sophmore in college next year and already holds a level 1 certification in the Egala program. Not bad for a kid not yet 20.

The thing is johnmike is that there were no jobs being created in the area period, and what work that there was paid a pittance. But I guess thats alright with you no taxes at any cost let business take care of it types.

Originally posted by grover
The thing is johnmike is that there were no jobs being created in the area period, and what work that there was paid a pittance. But I guess thats alright with you no taxes at any cost let business take care of it types.

If it was as profitable a venture as you say, then private enterprise would have taken care of it. But the New Deal took care of that. Companies shut down because they couldn't compete with the onslaught of regulations they had to pass so that businesses couldn't compete with the TVA, making it a fascist monopoly. But no one talks about the jobs that were destroyed as a result, do they?

Oh please...spare me your rhetoric... I swear some of you guys sound like broken records.

The rural south was an economic mess no one wanted to invest in long before the New Deal came along. AND still as late as the Johnson era, there were parts that were still economically blighted, that even the new deal hadn't touched. WHY? Mostly rural, mostly very poor, predominately black. AND in places where race wasn't a factor you had almost slave like conditions in the mills and mines that kept the owners rich and the people who made them that way destitute and dependent on the company store.

It is obvious you know nothing of the economic history of the south between reconstruction and the civil rights movement.

All I did was explain why the Tennessee Valley Authority did damage to the private sector. I hope you weren't blinded by any rhetoric; any use of it was explicitly to make my point(s) more understandable and not to mislead you.

Perhaps you should check with some people from the area to see if they felt harmed by it instead of assuming that they were.

Grover,

I grew up and lived through most of the mess of the UMW and I must tell you that you are 100% WRONG..

I have/had uncles working in the mines before/during and after the strikes and resultant violence, so I DO KNOW OF WHAT I SPEAK..

Your rhetoric not withstanding, I might be able to educate you some on that score..


Semper

Originally posted by grover
Perhaps you should check with some people from the area to see if they felt harmed by it instead of assuming that they were.

That's moronic. How they felt? How does how they felt make any difference? The TVA destroyed jobs and businesses. No amount of "feel good" can say any different.

That's so idiotic that I'm not sure if that was an attempt to troll.

You are stuck in your dogma. The TVA for all its faults created jobs where there were no jobs, created electricity and brought it to one of the last areas in the country to get it, controlled flooding and helped bring cities like Knoxville into the 20th century. Businesses did not do this... they had had plenty of time to do so and instead they just moved outside the area. The TVA helped create the new south.

You are just laughable yourself. It doesn't matter what the people affected think or thought is just too funny.

You know the trouble with people like you is that in the long run you want a free ride... the same thing you accuse the poor of. Taxes are the price we pay to live where we do. Taxes pay for our over glutted military and the services that make this country so damned liveable. Don't want to pay taxes then turn off your services, stop driving your SUV on our roads and move to some place like Liberia.

So Semper who started the violence, the miners or the mine owners? I make no justification for violence on any side. Those strikes however are one of the reasons mining pays as well as it does now.... $50,000 and up from what I understand. A far cry owing your soul to the company store and living in the company house.

Originally posted by grover
You know the trouble with people like you is that in the long run you want a free ride... the same thing you accuse the poor of. Taxes are the price we pay to live where we do. Taxes pay for our over glutted military and the services that make this country so damned liveable. Don't want to pay taxes then turn off your services, stop driving your SUV on our roads and move to some place like Liberia.

Ah, I see your colors now. You're flipping out and refusing to use logic for some reason, but I understand. You equate taxation with getting services. That's where you've gone wrong. Perhaps it's because you've fallen into the trap of believing it when you're told that you need the government (well, maybe not explicitly, but it's implied a lot). I don't know why, but this isn't uncommon.

You do NOT need the government to live everyday. The only thing that you really need it for maintaining the law and providing for defense. Everything that the government does will always be more costly and less efficient than if citizens did it, it's an inherent part of government intervention. Just because I don't think we should pay for things like the TVA does not mean that I don't want to pay taxes. However, it does mean that I think more good could be done and more lives could be saved if we left that money in the economy instead of taking it out as tax.

Simply put, we don't need the state to play mommy for us to be prosperous or to help the poor. At first glance it would appear that such socialistic or fascist practices help the poor, but in reality, you do much more harm than good.

I have been perfectly clear in what I have to say and am not flipping out. Don't go reading things into what I write because I know how to say exactly what I mean.

I am not so devoted to the government as you think I just feel it has a greater roll to play than you do. You are totally wrong about tax dollars being removed from the economy, they get turned around and filtered right back into it.

You can believe what you want about the TVA and the role it played in bring about a modern south, I really could care less, but I live in the area and I think my prespective is a little closer to home than some dude out on Long Island. Trust me the south was in bad shape and the local businesses were not investing in the area, but were moving out. Not so different really than what the corporations are doing today. Big difference is that we are in better shape to withstand it now but still there are places south of here where the unemployment rate is in the double digits.

Originally posted by grover
You are totally wrong about tax dollars being removed from the economy, they get turned around and filtered right back into it.

Sort of. The economy has systems of checks and balances, basically supply and demand. When you remove money, hurting the economy, and then do something with it, you're completely disregarding these systems and forcing the money to be used for something much less efficient than what it could be used for. Government intervention is nothing but destructive in terms of economics (especially economics), culture, and liberty.

The violence started with snipers in the hills shooting at the company trucks..

The deaths were all caused by the workers...

They took human lives for a few dollars more...

At the time I remember my Uncle making around 100 dollars a day, and I am pretty sure that was AMAZING money for the time. Especially as he had a 4th grade education...

He placed his faith in the UNION.. what a crock...

Know where he is now???

He is almost 70 and has to cut wood for a living at 10 dollars an hour to buy food.... I send them money so that they don't lose the farm.. You see, that loving, wonderful Union turned on him and others like him and forced them out with NOTHING...

When you are around him and his other disenfranchised miner buddies, the word Union is considered cursing...

I have been there, lived through it and it SUCKS

Semper

OK Semper I must chime in on the anti-union part. I'm a proud Teamster and we do not advocate violence. Times have changed the period you are referring to were by their nature violent. Without the Teamsters we would be totally and completely out of luck. We would not have health insurance, vacations, sick leave or our bid system. We would in fact be at the mercy of the state and it has no mercy. I'm sorry that your uncle and his friends were treated badly and they undoubtedly have the right to be bitter but I wouldn't work where I do without union representation.

Just different views GH...

I can understand yours and I am happy that you understand mine....

Unions are just like anything else, without the proper controls they run amok...

It is my opinion that the very reason so many of our jobs are now being shipped overseas, is the fault of the Union and their meddling in the free market. Driving the cost of manufacture up so that legitimate business have no recourse but go where labor is cheaper...

Some unions are valuable... I benefited from a Union of sorts, Collective Bargaining actually, and was able to retire the first time at the ripe old age of forty. It is the age old, tiresome rhetoric of the POOR POOR soul slaving to support the BIG BAD business that just makes me wonder if there is any common sense left in the world...

Semper

Its everyone's fault but by mine this is pretty much the line from elements of the American right.
Lets review.
"Its all the union fault that myself and other people buy the cheaper crappier goods from China. "
"Its all the union fault that US car makers continue to produce designs that the market has rejected. "
"Its all the media fault and Anti American Liberals , Europeans and people like me fault that the occupation of Iraq was botched. "
The American right screams blue murder either way if the market is doing its job and the likes of US car makers cry foul. The American right got the war they wanted and went things went down hill they still managed to blame someone else .

Unions interfering with the Free Market ?
Good one by the American rights thinking it is wrong for the average Joe to seek a fair deal but it is perfectly OK for drug company's to have a monopoly that is supported by politicians. You see I actually support people having access to a better quality of life via the Free Market. Allowing the private sector to have monopoly(s) is like having the government run services the only difference is where the profits end up.

average Joe to seek a fair deal

What does "Average Joe" have to do with the FAT CAT, Megalomaniac Unions?

Your use of the term "Average Joe seeking a fair wage" is exactly the fair market that has been shown to work time and time again..

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
What does "Average Joe" have to do with the FAT CAT, Megalomaniac Unions?

Umm I was speaking in more general terms rather then specify about a single union. You Average Joe is the person who takes a pay and benefit cuts while corporate directors pay increases while a company is performing badly. Some how you missed or chose to miss my point.

So I will spell it out often when the American right get what's it wants it doesn't like the result and cries foul (read blame someone else for the problems at hand ! ) see the examples I gave above. I'm not a huge fan of unions but I don't see how people can support the Free Market , bag unions and yet support the existence of monopoly(s) .

So why don't all the people that preach the Free Market demand that drugs from places like Canada be imported to the US which would give people access to cheaper drugs with min government involvement ?

So why don't all the people that preach the Free Market ask why US Car makers continue to produce designs that are rejected by the market you preach ?

I am a supporter of the Free Market but at least I examine all aspects of the market and I don't avoid the difficult issues and I certainly don't blame other people for the results the Free Market produces.

It is unfortunate that the union leadership was deliberately taken over by organized crime just as it was coming into its own as a political force in this country. That sad reality does not change the overall good that unions have done. They made the little guy a force to be reckoned with as opposed to each man played off the other. Were there problems? Yes of course. Was there abuse? Yes of course there was but when looked at as a whole, unions helped make the middle class in this country.

As for outsourcing... unions are just an excuse, non-union jobs are being shipped overseas as well. The real culprit is a cut throat capitalism that puts profits above everything else; except of course obscene CEO pay.