One-fifth of world's surveillance focused on Brits!

Stu, mate, I have to say it - you may as well go and smack your head up a wall.

You aren't dealing with someone who wants to listen.

Greatlakes does not care about our points of view, our culture or the fact that the UK does things differently.

We're second class people in Greatlakes eyes - we aren't American. We deserve to be talked down to, patronised and ignored. Can't you see that?

[edit on 7/0607/07 by neformore]

And another "TRIAL" system being "tried" in the UK, i believe this has been covered in another thread, but this one has the trial aspect of the system. A police drone:

With literally hundreds of thousands of cameras -- some sporting speakers and microphones -- trained on its poor citizens from the moment they step out of the house in the morning until their hasty retreat inside at night, we're not sure why the UK needs yet another set of eyes scoping out so-called 'anti-social behaviour' among the populace, but that isn't stopping the vanguard of Big Brother technology from deploying its first unmanned police drone next month.

In what is being perhaps optimistically billed as just a three-month trial, Merseyside police will unleash a one-meter wide, night-vision camera-equipped mini-helicopter into the skies (up to 500-meters high) above their jurisdiction, and task it with gathering evidence for court cases as well as the less glamorous job of monitoring traffic congestion.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by greatlakes]

Neformore, I know..But I have to try anyway.....

Originally posted by greatlakes
Whats the difference? Its simple, HUMAN EYES vs. ELECTRONIC EYES.
Electronic eyes (cameras) data can be catalogued and referenced and analyzed in milliseconds, checking and recording EVERY license plate that happens by it, every face and analyzing it against facial recognition systems. Try doing that with HUMAN eyes attached to a police officer.

And that, my paranoid friend, is exactly the freaking, bloody point!!

Jeebus....

Whilst America may be content on having thousands of Police officers (or Troopers....go figure) sitting beside highways, eating donuts and catching no one, whilst wasting huge amounts of money, we in the UK have decided it is far easier AND cheaper to have a camera catch you do it.

There is no argument, there is no defence. You are caught on camera doing 100mph, you get a fine through the door. Meanwhile, our police can focus on doing something more productive with their finite resources.

Originally posted by greatlakes
If you don't know or see it for yourself then I can't inform you of which of the privacy rights are being affected.

Er... your in public. You have no privacy.

Again, I'll ask you, what privacy is being invaded?

Don't try and sidestep it with another patronising remark, sunshine.

Answer the question, or stop this nonsense.

Greatlakes, again, I ask a question..

With that drone, what is the difference between that and a Police Helicopter?

Apart from the blindingly obvious point that it is FAR CHEAPER and will save the Police hundreds of thousands of pounds a year.....

Privacy in public places.

This article, written for a symposium on the intersection of the Fourth Amendment and technology, contests that stance, at the same time it questions whether the traditional, "probable-cause-forever" view of Fourth Amendment protections makes sense in this technological age. Based on an analysis of the panoptic effects of government camera surveillance – among them "anticipatory conformity," fear that private facts will be exposed, and possible decreased loyalty to a surveillance-driven government – this article first argues that the courts should recognize a constitutional right to anonymity in public places.

Although courts have rejected constitutional challenges to public camera surveillance, they have yet to address the constitutionality of overt camera *systems*, with zoom and nightvision capacity and the storage and dissemination advantages that digitization brings. Such camera surveillance can chill speech and association, infringe on the rights to movement and repose, and undermine the general right to privacy. It also infringes the Fourth Amendment interest in avoiding unregulated government intrusions.

To bolster the latter point, the article reports a study I conducted to ascertain the relative intrusiveness of overt, systematic camera surveillance in the eyes of the public. The results of a survey of almost 200 prospective jurors indicate that camera surveillance is viewed as more intrusive, to a statistically significant degree, than a number of investigative techniques the Supreme Court has found to implicate the Fourth Amendment, including roadblocks.

papers.ssrn.com...

[edit on 7-6-2007 by greatlakes]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Police state my arse, check this thread out and then come back and call us a Police state...

Jeebus H. Christos....

A new Waco could be underway as reports come in of law enforcement, APC's and SWAT team personnel descending on the home of Ed Brown, the tax protester who has threatened to use force to defend himself against authorities.

Fred Smart, a close friend of the Brown's confirmed that Brown's phone has been cut and that at around 8:30PM last night a silent surveillance drone with a bright beaming light encircled the Brown's property as if conducting reconnaissance.

Emphasis mine.....

I laugh at your paranoia....

Originally posted by greatlakes
Privacy in public places.

*snip*

Firstly, US law doesn't apply here. Shocking I know, but it's the truth....

Secondly, the US Supreme Court (and lesser courts) has always taken the view that Privacy Laws do not apply when CCTV images of someone in public are concerned. I know that much about your country. So spin away, chum...

Stumason like the cheese of Cheshire I find your comment 'mildly' amusing (boom boom ehem).

I think one of the points Greatlakes is suggesting that will the monitoring become more pervasive as we become accustomed to the all cameras. Indeed when they first brought CCTV to my home town I have to admit to being a little freaked out every time the camera focused on me as I casually walked down the street (doing nothing wrong I might add) but these days I hardly notice them. So do you think our acceptance of the cameras we have now which are basically public monitoring systems, reduce any fear we may have of individual monitoring systems that may be introduced in the future? For example, a computerised tagging system AKA human chipping?

I'm against chipping and would refuse point blank to have one. That is Government tagging of the population.

Watching us public places via a camera mind you is no different than watching us with Human Police.

I would rather the Police be deployed more effectively, given the limited resources they have, rather than expected to be everywhere and see everything at once, which if we are honest, is what we expect them to do and we always moan "where were the Police?"...

EDIT: When I said Cheshire, I did mean salt. As the entire UK production of salt comes from Cheshire....

Also, I will reiterate that 90% of CCTV in the UK is NOT Government owned or controlled and as such, we are not a "surveillance society"...

[edit on 7/6/07 by stumason]

I see Greatlakes has been shocked and appalled by the revelation of what is happening in the US right now with regards to that Tax dodger and has now left the building....

Come back, Greatlakes, don't be sad....

Haven't seen this video yet regards to the 'talking to' CCTV cameras.

"The use of these cameras amounts to psychological warfare. We will watch you, we will monitor you, we will control you. What sort of country have we become?" Aye that.



PAPERS PLEASE!



Random roadside FINGERPRINT program. But hey it is only a TRIAL Theres that word again, also the words "PILOT PROGRAM" come up with this technology often. Wow, I thought only criminals were fingerprinted and gathered? Hmmm. But hey its only a TRIAL.


CCTV FRIEND OR FOE?

Originally posted by greatlakes
Random roadside FINGERPRINT program. But hey it is only a TRIAL

Theres that word again, also the words "PILOT PROGRAM" come up with this technology often. Wow, I thought only criminals were fingerprinted and gathered? Hmmm. But hey its only a TRIAL.

What the hell?

Police can take your fingerprints at will anyway, but they take you down the station for it due to the facilities there.

At least this way, your saved the inconvenience.

Same with DNA, if they want, they can make anyone give a DNA sample to compare against evidence. Would you rather do it quickly and easily, or down the station?

And here is where ANYONE can gain access to a CCTV camera that is located in the UK (one of the many). There are some that can be controlled zoom and pan and tilt as well! Can any of this data be used maliciously? Sure can, and since the NET of CCTV cameras in the UK is so prevalent, the case for potential abuse is scary.

cam1.east-ayrshire.gov.uk...

[edit on 7-6-2007 by greatlakes]

I think North Korea is good example of what a true surveillance society is and sets the definition of in this modern age.

Its certainly true that a lot of data is recorded about an individual in the UK but we are no different from any other developed nation.

Perceptions play a big part in our understanding of CCTV cameras and this topic and the comments posted within have certainly has highlighted some good truths about UK surveillance cameras - so a big to all contributors. I've certainly learned something and i'm not just talking about salt lol

Accountability as a cultural trait?

This really should not be a UK vs US squabble,its senseless but its coming to a neighbourhood near u at some point . Get used to the idea.

As was said by my countrymen earlier 90% of the CCTV (CLOSED circuit television) is privately run. the rest is council or police operated.

The police have to get permission from the crown to use the footage in any way shape or form, we are NOT controlled by these camera's please please understand that , they are there were used to them. i probably have been watched countless times today but i dont know it , it has made no impact on my life!!

I sat and ate a curry (Ceylon wiv pilau n peshwari) tonite and in the restaurant were little silent witness cctv cameras keeping an eye out, not to see if i was eating with my mouth closed but to catch any idiot drunk doing a runner without paying!!!

Never ever heard of wheelie bin tagging!!!!! whats that all about?? wheelie bins with ASBO's???

That drone helicopter thing Wont take off !! excuse the pun , we may be British but we will not put up with that kind of malarky!! bloody noisey too i expect...

So ... please please stop calling us a police state , we are not , i feel safe and in control of my life , i do not have the KGB watching my every move on every street corner, Im free to come and go as i please, and if i get the urge to mug a pensioner i know i will be spotted and caught sooner than later and thrown in prison if there is room , not sit at home laughing about the old coot i done over for 15 quid !!!

git.

I think everyone is getting a bit hyped-up about the CCTV issue. All CCTV operators whether private, or public, have to abide by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. I've seen CCTV stations that have windows to houses etc. blacked out on their screens so that they can't see in. Also, you have to query the quality of most CCTV - the only systems that are worth their salt are those operated by local authority councils - because they can afford it!

As for taking everyones DNA, fingerprints and photograph? That can only be done if you've been arrested for a 'recordable offence', otherwise its illegal for the police or any other law enforcement agency to do it.

Yea heres one that can be CONTROLLED, zoom, pan, tilt etc.


bccars.dyndns.org...

Heh, I drove a rental Corsa when I was over there, then in Italy rented a pretty peppy 3 cylinder car manual.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by greatlakes]

That is an open access PTZ no suprise there !

Look, Greatlakes, if all your going to do is post without replying to any of my many counter arguments against your paranoia, what is the point?

This isn't a debate or even a discussion, your treating this thread as your own private showcase, whilst ignoring us who have real life experience of what your banging on about.

If you question the tactics that are going on now in the UK AND THE USA (stu an nefor will be pleased), here are some quotes in another thread regarding CONTROL in 1st hand account...

Originally posted by hansen
Hello guys,

I have read this whole thread and I feel I have to say something for the ones who're ready to live in a world without any privacy and freedom of thinking/acting.

First of all, I am from Romania. Yes, it's that Romania from where the above-mentioned "Romanian type immigrants" are coming.
Despite of the fact that Romania is far from a perfect country - I know that and I will never deny it -, I want to remind the scared-by-Romanians guy that we have here, in our prisons, few British citizens charged by mollesting and raping Romanian kids and also few British cons.
There are also Belgians, a French guy and - damn! - an American, the famous Kurt Treptow, who also filmed the kids - 9 - 12 year old boys, actually - he raped and ****ed in every hole.
So speaking as a decent human being, please stop mocking around about the Evil-Romanian-Immigrants-Who-Want-To-Take-Over-Britain".

Period.

Now, returning to the subject.

I am 39 so I lived in the communist era here, I felt it on my own skin - and bones, I might say. For those with less knowledges about this matter, Romania was ruled by communists between 1945 and 1989.

You guys who aren't worried at all about your rights to own your private space, let me tell you something: you have absolutely no idea about living in a psychological / physical prison in size of a country.
During the communist regime, the secret police - Security, based on the Romanian word - was so active that it has been able to infiltrate everywhere, from kindergardens, spying on kids and their parents to the churches where the dead ones were starting their last road to the grave.
Of course, the technology wasn't so advanced then but hear this: imagine you were stand on a looong line in front of an empty store, waiting for some so low quality food that even a pig would refuse. Standing there for hours - from 3 a.m. to 5 p.m., it's true! - only to get some chicken legs ( legs! the ones with claws on them! ) you say: "Damn these bastards, they keep us starving on purpose!" and guess what: the guy behind you pulls an ID, says "Secret police, come with me", grabs your arm, throws you in a car and for the next month you find yourself in the cell. The guards beat you 3-4 times a day, they don't let you sleep, they keep you starving, no shower, no phonecall, noone from your family knows anything about you.
This is a real scene, which actually happened.

Your 14 y.o. kid can be the one who turns you in because you're listening Radio Free Europe or Voice of America; your brother can be one of them, the priest you're confessing to is one of them in 80 cases from 100, you're watched everywhere on the streets, on the working place, you are afraid to talk to anyone because you don't know who are you talking to - it could be one of them.

From 10 millions phones, around 6 millions were tapped; the letters were intercepted, the typing machines were recorded to the police, in the TVs were microphones, in the ashtrays on restaurants were microphones, on the parks were directional microphones in the trees, agents were on every street corner, standing there and watching everyone's move, bank accounts were monitored - citizens weren't suppose to own other money than romanian ones - your neighbour could be the one who send reports about you to the police. They had one person on every 20 families who actually spied on them, reporting every move to the police. The travels abroad were forbidden and if you had enough guts to ask for a passport you were actually had your name written on a "suspects list"; you could end being fired, your wife could be fired, your kids could be thrown away from any school.

These aren't exagerations, guys... ask any Romanian immigrant about this. Feeling yourself like the candle in a lamp, watched and listened from everywhere, trust me, it's a special feeling. You have to feel it to understand... search about suicide rate during those years in Romania.