One-fifth of world's surveillance focused on Brits!

CCTV cameras that are privately run are systems set up inside a shop, casino , Bank , the equiptment sits in a lock box or on a desk top, they usually comprise of three main components ,

1) Multiplexer - which channels all the static cameras into one viewing area (a monitor)

2) Matrix - this combines Ptz's with the statics and allows telemetry to operate the Ptz's also allows connection to another monitor or controller.

3) Recording device - either a time lapse VCR or Hard drive.

The systems that i have installed and maintained have never had any other connection to anywhere else, only within the premises where it is installed. it is purely run by that owner to monitor his goods , premises , and staff. It is all his property no body can remove any PART of his property including recordings without a warrant ..

If there was a crime such as a rape in the area the police may ask the owner to view recordings around that time to see if there was anything untoward caught on the system, if any suspect is recorded on his premises, they have to ask the owners permission to take the recording for further analysis. They cannot just walk in and take it . with the new hard drive systems they just take the footage that is relavent and burn it to disc. It would not be very helpful to the rape victim if the owner of the system said no , , would it ???

The "privately run" systems are just that , nothing else like me running my own Photocopier ! Fax ! or dishwasher ....

I cannot speak of Council run systems or police systems as i know nothing of their rules n regs ....

git

Originally posted by completenuttergit
The systems that i have installed and maintained have never had any other connection to anywhere else, only within the premises where it is installed. it is purely run by that owner to monitor his goods, premises, and staff. It is all his property no body can remove any PART of his property including recordings without a warrant ..

I cannot speak of Council run systems or police systems as i know nothing of their rules n regs ....

Thanks for the insight and post git! Just wondering, how do they control the PTZ parts of the cams operation, for the most part? All of the web interfaces seem kind of chincy, are there other mechanical joystick versions as well available and possibly in use over there? Also I have google searched finding many personal webcams, webcams that should NOT be able to be accessed by anyone public, are these just not passwd protected or user error?

For instance these are some 'G' rated versions of available CAMS

213.141.95.146...
62.164.202.118...
130.111.231.69...
82.116.33.70...


[edit on 6/8/2007 by greatlakes]

GL - the majority of Ptz's are controlled by joystix but some have really pants buttons which are very hard to control -

If u move the joystick say upward it will send for instance a +9v voltage to the control board which will make the motor on the Ptz move upward and a neg 9v to move down the left and right are on a different voltage. Zoom +/- are the same .

I do believe the cams on the web are put there by users and some stupidly too !!!

I would like to say i have seen some different things on some of the cctv systems and most of the time the operators are 100% honest with the operation and the power they hold ... i have however come across some not so honest ops .. like cameras in ladies toilets and changing rooms , which i have removed !!

Yes i have followed a beauty round a large store but that is it , u can get gr8 shots from them dome cameras u know ... luckily the systems were not recording when i was testing them lol ....

But in the end its supposed to be just a deterent and that is mainly it , nothing else, its amazing when u go back to an installation after a year to find that thefts and assaults have virtualy stopped. It can work !!

cheers
git

Here's that link that has "big brother' Uk in your dust bins. I can't make this stuff up!

Householders who keep putting out their bins on the wrong day could be caught out by secret spy cameras hidden in tin cans and bricks and branded "envirocriminals".

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Ealing is the latest council to use electronic gadgets like cameras to monitor the waste disposal of homeowners.

More than 30 councils have already secretly fitted microchips to wheelie bins as the Government comes under increasing pressure to increase recycling rates. The penny-sized electronic chips - nicknamed "bin bugs'' - can weigh the rubbish households throw out. CCTV cameras have also been hidden inside bins by other councils.

Microchips in trash bins sounds as Orwellian as anything - and even he didn't envision it - but this is exactly what is happening in the U.K. Recently, 72 year old Cyril Baker of Bournemouth discovered a chip in his trash bin. Apparently he didn't take kindly to it and ripped it off. After the incident he appeared on television to instruct his neighbors on how to do the same. As reported by the Daily Mail , trials have begun in which "Nearly 250,000 households have had microchips fitted to their rubbish bins in a test of the equipment necessary for sending families bills according to how full their bins are."
SOURCE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

~ Benjamin Franklin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...and this information seems very odd and orwellian...



In 2002, posters were showing up all across London displaying artwork looking like that of 1940's propaganda. "Secure beneath the watchful eyes" read the eerie poster.

Yet more bizarre propaganda can be seen in a video for the DVLA, broadcast over television, reminding citizens of the unblinking cameras watching them as they travel down the road. Set to the tune of "Chitty Chitty bang bang," this makes for a surreal scene.

WATCH VIDEO HERE...

How on earth can you find that video sinister and disturbing? I've never seen it on TV, or anywhere else for that matter, but it made me smile.

Its an excellent way to get the message across, you seem hell bent on protecting the rights of criminals, tax dodgers and other law breakers to do what they want and get away with it. Your paranoia seemingly knows no bounds. Why on earth should people be free to drive around on Britains roads without tax or insurace (in cars that are frequently unsafe because they have no MoT either), while I am driving perfectly legally. What if these morons hit my car or run over my child and simply disappear? Hey, that would be fine because their civil liberties would be intact! Bollocks.

Don't preach about what you don't know, or shall I start telling you why Americans should all be forced to give up their guns, or is it none of my business?

[edit on 9-6-2007 by waynos]

Hey Waynos.

You'd be better off talking to a wall than trying to reason with this guy. He's in a fantasy paranoia world of his own sitting at a compuer in the US and nothing anyone from Britain says means a damn thing.

Looking back through the thread I fear you are right Neformore, maybe we have more than our fair share of common sense in Yorkshire

No disrespect to the British posters on here, but I think you need to look at the bigger picture as it relates to personal privacy. How many of those cameras can see in the windows of someones house??? Even though they appear to be focused on one spot, the field of vision of a camera can be much larger than you think.

Also, my opinion is that as a countries people are conditioned to be subservant to the Government and conditioned to accept violations of there rights because a Government uses the guise of "Protecting the Citizens" than where do you draw the line????

In my City of 400,000 people (give or take a few thousand) I heard on the radio that they proposed a $100 Million dollar budget for the Police. I almost swerved off the road. This is a astronomical sum that makes me worry as a citizen. Part of this budget was installing cameras in every school. This makes the students conditioned to accept this massive policing by cameras and as they get older what else will they accept????

So, the bottom line is that I believe what is happening in Britain is that your citizens are being conditioned to accept these new ways and in the near future you wont be able to do anything without looking over your shoulder to make sure you not going to get in trouble.

Instead of using Billions of dollars on SPYING maybe we should use that money to help Parents teach there kids how to be respectful to property, laws, people, animals, etc. If we can revert ourselves somehow to raising our children right so we dont have to worry about so much crime. A criminal isnt born a criminal and it comes down to there environment they live in, there parental situation, how there taught about life, etc. I dont think parents are living up to there duty to properly raise there kids to have respect.

Last question, does England allow citizens to have Guns????

Originally posted by waynos
How on earth can you find that video sinister and disturbing? I've never seen it on TV, or anywhere else for that matter, but it made me smile.

Why on earth should people be free to drive around on Britains roads without tax or insurace (in cars that are frequently unsafe because they have no MoT either), while I am driving perfectly legally.

Its not the 'message' that is eerie and strange and odd, it's HOW the message is delivered. It rings of propaganda and psychological warfare, which is:

en.wikipedia.org...
"The planned use of propaganda and other psychological actions having the primary purpose of influencing the opinions, emotions, attitudes, and behavior of hostile foreign groups in such a way as to support the achievement of national objectives.

But in this case this is used to influence a countrys' own people. And propaganda:

"Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist." Source: Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion, 4th edition, 2006.

Let's look at how the communist country of China operates its control, manipulation, fear and oppression campaigns to rule over its' people.

First google search yields that China boasts that it has the WORLDS largest ID database of its people on record, 1.3 BILLION people and all collected within FIVE YEARS of collections. Everything as also electronically tied in to the central computers there. China's excuse *ahem* explanation is that it cuts down on fraudulent ID cards and reduces its rampant crime in this area...
www.informationliberation.com...

Smile! You're on Communist camera! Some Chinese are beginning to fight back against the invasive STATE owned cameras that dot the city there.

BEIJING -- The two young lovers are embracing tenderly in a secluded spot beside a Beijing lake -- until they notice the video camera.

Hidden behind the tinted glass of what appears to be a lamppost, the all-seeing eye of the camera has them under surveillance. Dozens of video cameras are dotted around the lake, concealed as street lamps. Each has a range of 200 metres and can swivel 360 degrees.

Jin Ni, a 22-year-old secretary, jumps out of the arms of her boyfriend when it is pointed out to her that a camera is nearby. "It's a violation of our rights," she says angrily.

Her boyfriend, 23-year-old Lu Xuan, defends the security officials. "They need the cameras to monitor crimes," he says. "Who would pay attention to you and me? They only care about public security."

Ms. Jin disagrees. "How can you trust them so easily?" she retorts.

All across China, the debate is erupting. With the latest high-tech spying equipment proliferating, and with an estimated 200,000 surveillance cameras installed in Shanghai alone, Chinese citizens are beginning to fight back. For the first time, they are asserting the newfound notion of privacy.

Source
www.prisonplanet.com...

So China has opted for a high-tech response: sophisticated video cameras to keep watch over hotels, restaurants, parks, residential buildings and other popular gathering spots.

Even an ordinary provincial city, Zhengzhou in central China, already has 40,000 surveillance cameras in place, with another 60,000 planned in the next five years. China's biggest city, Shanghai, is planning another 200,000 cameras within the next five years, in addition to the 200,000 already operating.

Some of the people are OUTRAGED that they are being spied upon, its one thing for people to take photographs out in public quite another when its state sponsored. Some reactions by the Chinese:

Public outrage over the surveillance cameras is mounting. One Chinese magazine wondered whether China is turning into an Orwellian society where Big Brother is always watching.

"When were these cameras installed?" asked a 28-year-old man who was swimming in Shichahai Lake in Beijing when the hidden cameras were pointed out to him. "We never knew about it," he said. "Otherwise we wouldn't swim here. Nobody wants to swim under a camera."

A survey by China Youth Daily found that 74 per cent of those polled were unhappy with cameras in the corridors of university dormitories. "When I think of myself living under monitors, I feel frightened," a female student told the newspaper.

"In the current situation, anyone can install cameras freely and make a videotape and do whatever they want with it. How can you feel comfortable if you know that someone is secretly watching you?

"How can people have a privacy right if cameras are installed in residential compounds and university dormitories? The right of privacy is a basic human right."

Video monitoring, of course, is not unique to China. More than 4.2 million closed-circuit surveillance cameras have been installed in Britain -- the largest number in any Western country. British civil-liberties advocates have been alarmed by the dramatic rise in surveillance cameras. Studies have concluded that most British camera systems are ineffective in preventing crime or making people feel safer.

Surveillance cameras are much less common in North America. Some U.S. cities, including New York and Chicago, have installed cameras in city streets and public areas, although the numbers are far smaller than in Britain or China.

Last month, Vancouver abandoned a plan to install 23 surveillance cameras on several downtown streets after the Vancouver police concluded that the British cameras had been ineffective.

[edit on 6/9/2007 by greatlakes]

Originally posted by hoochymama
No disrespect to the British posters on here, but I think you need to look at the bigger picture as it relates to personal privacy. How many of those cameras can see in the windows of someones house??? Even though they appear to be focused on one spot, the field of vision of a camera can be much larger than you think.

Most of these cameras are installed in shops and on gantries in town/city centres, and not in residential areas, unless they are cameras put up by private householders for security purposes. I realise that if you read the paranoid rantings of your compatriot on here it might appear that theres several of these of these things on every street. There isn't. Cameras in semi-residential areas (say City Centre apartments etc) are usually restricted in movement and unable to be focused on windows etc.

Just to prove a point here, I set out to observe the number of cameras I would see on my way to work on Friday. I live in a major conurbation in the UK that follows the M62 Motorway Corridor, and work 8 miles from my home. The whole area is Urban

My route to work and home again is covered by exactly 0 cameras.

Last question, does England allow citizens to have Guns????

Yes, as long as you are licensed, have passed a background check and keep the weapon stored in a tamper proof container when its not being used for legitimate purposes. Carrying weapons on your person is forbidden except for in extreme circumstances

[edit on 9/0607/07 by neformore]

No disrespect to the British posters on here, but I think you need to look at the bigger picture as it relates to personal privacy. How many of those cameras can see in the windows of someones house???

And there is a perfect example of not understanding the subject properly, we do not have residential areas covered by cameras, even if they could look into someones house, even if they were under govty control and even if such an activity wasn't illegal. Where I live in Maltby there is a speed camera just before the boundary, there are CCTV cameras monitoring the High Street and there are CCTV camera in several, but by no means all, shops. One thing all these cameras have in common is that not one of them overlooks anyones house, at all.

Also, my opinion is that as a countries people are conditioned to be subservant to the Government and conditioned to accept violations of there rights because a Government uses the guise of "Protecting the Citizens" than where do you draw the line????

Again, speaking from personal experience, I live in a part of the UK that is nicknamed 'The Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire' precisely because it is deeply entrenched as militant and anti-establishment. It is an exaggeration, but its there. Look up the 1984-5 miners strike for an example of this militancy. I was one of those miners too, albeit a young trainee one at that time and I struck and went without any income whatsoever for 12 whole months in protest against the Govt, living on free dinners and clothes sent in parcels from supporters in other parts of the country and abroad. Subserviant to my govt I am not, you need to gain an understanding of the country that goes beyond the bland generalistations that so many seem to take as fact.

The cameras issue just ISN'T what the web warriors are making it out to be, it really is about safety and security. Not from 'terrorist' activities - we have no such thing and nor do I 'fear' such activities. However I DO want the thugs and criminals caught and dealt with, the young shiftless lazy sacks of puss who makes decent citizens lives a misery. What is so hard for you to understand? Like I said before, where is the privacy being eroded? Cameras in public places have nothing to do with privacy.

Part of this budget was installing cameras in every school. This makes the students conditioned to accept this massive policing by cameras and as they get older what else will they accept????

Or, jusdt maybe if you look beyond your paranoiac agenda, it just might be so that, due to the rapid alert it would allow, these pupils can be kept safe from a marauding gunman - it seems eminently sensible to me.

So, the bottom line is that I believe what is happening in Britain is that your citizens are being conditioned

You are, of course, free to think whatever you like. However ill informed or misguided.

Instead of using Billions of dollars on SPYING maybe we should use that money to help Parents teach there kids how to be respectful to property, laws, people, animals, etc. If we can revert ourselves somehow to raising our children right so we dont have to worry about so much crime

Now that WOULD be great. However real life isn't like that in our current Chav infested unemployment blackspots it is often the parents, and their disinterest and neglect, that is the problem.

Last question, does England allow citizens to have Guns

No, except under strict scrutiny thank god. Everyday my 12 year old son goes to school I can be 100% certain no one will shoot him.

I can think of many American parents who would love that to be the case over there, for far too many it is already too late.

[edit on 9-6-2007 by waynos]

So, I am misinformed and basically ignorant on the exact locations where you live. But, I have seen videos of London and there must be 4-10 cameras on every single street light which I guess covers every square inch of area in London. I don't believe those are private unless private companies own the street lights. Have you read 1984 by George Orwell??? What I am saying is that once you get used to your basic rights taken away, once you get used to the police no longer allowing peaceful protest, once you allow every portion of your day being filmed and analyzed, are you really free????

Sure, right now it may seem SAFE but what happens if you have kids, and your child gets out of line in public and you need to give them a little spanking to straighten them out?? Some camera sees you and next thing you know the cops are there taking your kids away from you for child abuse??? This might be paranoia but this is what is happening in my country and we don't have the cameras in place yet. They are relying on people to TELL ON YOU and watch every move you make to make sure THEY FEEL SAFE until they get the cameras in place where everything is basically subjective.

Do you know how many kids have been killed by Lunatics in schools where I live??? ZERO. There has NEVER been a so called lunatic at any school in my city waiting to blast as many kids as possible. Although, every time the police are looking for a suspect the News LOVES to make the statement "the gunmen was 5 miles from the school" and "the gunmen was seen in the General vicinity".

I am not attacking you or your country just bringing up points that I think are important. I would ask that you stop stating how uninformed, paranoid, don't understand the thread, etc as I have never said that to you about this topic we are discussing and I would not do that to you. If we can keep to this debate without getting personal I have not problem, but as soon as you make it personal I do have a problem with it.

Thanks.

I wasn't getting personal, and have no intention of doing so, I was simply trying to put over the facts as I see them. I am sure that, as far as the things you have seen online go, you are extremely well informed. That however is part of the problem. The position as put across on the webpages linked, and many others beside are absolutely dripping with agenda, as you say;

I have seen videos of London and there must be 4-10 cameras on every single street light

I can categorically guarantee you that this is very far from the truth, if it were you would have a point, but you are coming to this 'police state' conclusion via flawed information.

What I am saying is that once you get used to your basic rights taken away,

But what basic rights have I lost through having CCTV in the streets and shops? None whatsoever.

nce you allow every portion of your day being filmed and analyzed, are you really free????

Every portion? Far from it, for about 98% of every day I am nowhere near a camera. Analyzed by whom? the only camera's where I might be filmed and analyzed are the ones in the High Street which I pass twice a day at most. As has been explained already in the thread, the vast majority just film and refilm, re-using the same tapes/memory and are only ever looked at if a crime has been committed.

Sure, right now it may seem SAFE but what happens if you have kids, and your child gets out of line in public and you need to give them a little spanking to straighten them out?? Some camera sees you and next thing you know the cops are there taking your kids away from you for child abuse???

Except I would never and have never hit either of my children, however, the scenario is a fantasy, 'what if', do you think no parent in the UK has ever smacked their child in view of a public camera? Where are the arrests? It doesn't happen, this is where the paranoia comes into it.

ut this is what is happening in my country and we don't have the cameras in place yet. They are relying on people to TELL ON YOU and watch every move you make to make sure THEY FEEL SAFE until they get the cameras in place where everything is basically subjective.

Well in that case, if true, you might well be right to worry and develop a sense of paranoia about it. But make no mistake, this is not how cameras are being used here.

Do you know how many kids have been killed by Lunatics in schools where I live??? ZERO.

That is truly excellent, of course, and may it for ever remain so, but you brought up guns and while they are so freely available in the USA the possibility of 'the nutter with the gun' must also remain ever present. I am extremely glad that it is illegal here, may that never change.

Given a choice between a camera on every corner or a gun in every home, I'll take the camera's every time.

London isn't that big. Maybe 4-10 cameras on EVERY STREET LIGHT was a little over estimated, but not much. Im not saying you live in a Police State, YET. I am saying maybe you should be concerned with the amount of cameras that are being integrated into your daily lives. At some point in time it may be used against you. If you dont limit the power of the Government as far as monitoring its citizens and suppressing gun ownership you wont be in a position to have any strategic advantage to fight back when you need to take over our country back. We need to limit our Governments advantage of suppressing those, when the time comes, to be able to defend themselves when someone gets into power who is power hungry. England has had a revolution as well as the US. There are reasons for revolutions. But, when you give the Government an inch they take a mile. It may not be today but it most likely will be tomorrow.

If it is so hard to own a gun that most people just give up trying, if there are Government cameras everywhere watching every move you make (this is happening in London, maybe not where you live) than what are the chances of the people retaking control of there Government when the time comes to do so, and trust me, there WILL be a time to do so.

We always need to keep an eye on our Government, not the other way around. What I propose is that we/you create a Citizens group to install cameras in every Government building, office, entrance to Government buildings, in meeting rooms, in the court rooms, etc. so WE CAN MONITOR THEM. When is the Government ever held accountable for there actions.

I just ran across this site and it doesnt look like you as a citizen has any choice in what your Government chooses for you. You cant even elect your own representatives.

Please take a look and let me know if this is for real or not.
Subjects, not citizens

OK. I'm sick of this.

Its called LIVING IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

Suprisingly, people in other countries DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

Oddly, they have DIFFERENT LAWS

Strangely enough, they have DIFFERENT CUSTOMS

Thats because their country IS NOT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Now, you may wish to try and talk down to us in the UK if you wish, because for some reason you can't understand what I've written above, but at the same time please realise that your continued, patronising arrogant ignorance of those facts will not win you any friends in the UK.

In fact, what you will find is that the more you push the issue of your own ignorance, the less tolerant people become.

In fact, its these issues from Americans like yourself on a national scale that has caused the problems that the US experiences all over the world with its global image, because, to be frank, you aren't listening.

Now I don't know why the hell you feel the need to carp on about things. Its not to educate yourself for sure, because you've ignored whats been said and even - it appears - resorted to posting the same argument from a different screen name to try and back up whatever point you wish to make.

All you have proved is that the US is a different country from the UK. As stated previously, we do things differently here.

But yet again you are coming back at us with if's buts and maybe's without any evidence to back it up. This is exactly the sort of paranoid scaremongering I was on about. Maybe it is understandable as you live in what is, rightly or wrongly, regarded as the most paranoid nation on earth (Communists, Muslim's etc - all good stuff to make sure people stay 'patriotic') but all you are doing is taking some basic information and immediately extrapolating it into the worst possible outcome. Things happen differently here, as nefrormore said, we don't want to be a clone of the USA, there are aspects of life in America that are very appealing, naturally, but there are also things we don't like at all, and I'm sure that works both ways.

You talk of gun prohibition in the UK as if it is a bad thing that needs putting right. The perception here is that too many Americans think they are living in a Clint Eastwood movie and it is YOU that have it wrong. In your country it is possible (and has happened) that someone could shoot you dead for parking outside their house and blocking their gates, yet Americans will rise up in mass protest if anyone tries to take their guns away!!!

Americans regularly mis-quote the constituion to justify carrying guns when that is not what it says at all, Note that even the often misquoted Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution grants citizens a right to bear arms only in the context of “well regulated militia”, but that part is always left out! We are different from you, we don't want to be you. What you must understand is that different people think differently, that is not a bad thing and if more Americans, especially ones in power, could grasp that basic idea your standing in world opinion would go up immensely, IMO.

Please take a look and let me know if this is for real or not.

Again, the basic facts in this are correct, but it is written in a slant which promotes a paranoid agenda. The link in that which pans the BBC is a case in point. The technical term is 'misrepresentaion of the facts'. The portrayal of the BBC as some sort of Govt puppet is so laughable as to be untrue. The License fee is not 'oppressive', it allows the BBC to have a precious independant editorial policy, free from the possibilities of corruption that come from not daring to upset advertisers and sponsors.

It seems to me that some conspiracy theorists want their cake and eat it as there are several pages about how the BBC is all for the Govt and under its control, they seem to forget the furore during the Gulf War when the BBC sent its reporters on both sides of the conflict and reported the facts of what was going on instead of just the propaganda side of things. They were the only broadcaster to do this, as far as I am aware, and there were calls to curb them at the time, thankfully unheeded. These people can't have it both ways.

The internet is a wonderful place as you can basically write what you want to promote whatever agenda you believe in at the time and you can sure that someone, somewhere will agree with you.

It seems to me that we will never agree on this subject so maybe we had just better agree to differ? You think the cameras are a symptom of the UK sliding into an Orwellian nightmare - I think you are overreacting and reading into it a meaning that is not there - whatever else we say that basic premise is not going to change as far as I can see.

[edit on 10-6-2007 by waynos]

There's a fair amount of paranoia about this that is unnecessary from a UK perspective imo. It's a cultural thing, everyone can see the benefits of the CCTV cameras, and yes I guess they could be subverted by shady underground groups but... it will never get to the BB stage, brits just would not accept that. CCTV cameras may be the wrong thing for the US or elsewhere, I don't know, but for the UK they are great. I live in a city centre and every aspect of my modern life is recorded on some camera, public and private. Every shop I walk into has a camera in it... I don't worry about Tesco watching me pick my nose or scratch my balls.

On the other hand there's less crime here, other than people pouring out of nightclubs drunk, but people can't get away with crime in the city centre, and in the worst spots in neighbourhoods etc. Local shops have CCTV outside them. I can't remember the last time I heard of a bank robbery in this country.

For me, if there's an enemy to be concerned about it's the corporations... but of course they already know everything about our lives and habits, and if we have mobile phones they know exactly where we are at every second of our day.

So I'm not so paranoid about CCTV because there's an even greater evil than government out there, and it already does all the things that people fear the gov doing!

If we're being paranoid about it, maybe those who kick up a fuss about the gov and their microchips are distracting people from this corporate spy network?

I guess all of Americans with guns think were all part of the same militia, the American militia. I should visit Britain one of these days so I can understand what your talking about as the cultural meaning brought up by the Gratex cleared it up for me as far as your reasons why this sort of thing doesn't bother you.

Scotland does not have an independant government, it is very close to one but it does not have one , can the first minister control the military or enact special powers unless they declare a state of emergancy? Noooo they cant.

Sorry mate but scotlands not quite there yet.

Might not be an independant country, but we are classed as not a state within the UK but A Country, and btw, Scotland does have a independant Justice/Law system from england, wales and northern ireland, also an Independant National Health Service, Independant Police Force, Independant Education Service, What Laws are made IN Westminster does not affect Scotland, only unless the Scottish Parliement implements them. That is a total different subject.... Back on topic...

And another "TRIAL" system being "tried" in the UK, i believe this has been covered in another thread, but this one has the trial aspect of the system. A police drone:

This is what I was refferring to im My previous post... So yuh it is the Police who now have use of these Police Drone crafts to watch everyone....

Police can take your fingerprints at will anyway, but they take you down the station for it due to the facilities there.

Unless they have a Valid reason as to why they are taken your finger-prints, they cannot take ur finger prints unless they charge you with something, is against the human rights act, how would u feel if t he police stopped you in the middle of the street and asked you for your finger prints without given you a valid explanation as to why your finger prints are being taken, you wouldnt be very happy about it would you. I know for one I wouldn't be happy about it.

I also find it kinda alarming that children are being finger- printed an this is being kept on databases up and down the country without the parents/guardians knowledge...

Surely Parents have the right to be informed in the first place, or permission sought to either or not their childs fingersprints should be stored in this way..

anyway, i think greatlakes is bringing it to you stu and the the other dude...

you keep saying stuff like your argument holds more water cause you live there but there are others that live there that have posted and are not to happy about this.

Thanxs Boon for pointing this out, not all of us Brits are happy with the way the Present British Gov is going, trying to enforce everything on us British folks without public consultaion, mostly they just railroad us into everything.

But one thing I will agree on, if you havn't lived in the UK, then you dont have a clue what ur on about, the same goes for anyone who comments on US Issues, who have not lived there either.....