One-fifth of world's surveillance focused on Brits!

Camera's that listen to you won't ever happen, for three reasons:

1. The DPA
   
2. The Human Right's Act
   
3. The Official Secrets Act
   

End of.


[edit on 6/6/07 by stumason]

I'm not exactly sure what the numbers currently are in Chicago, but they're definatley going up. The mayor is hoping to get a camera on pretty much every street corner by 2016 as Chicago would like to host the Olympics, so the plan is to get security high enough to prevent any problems.

I figure by 2016 (whether we get the Olympics or not) Brits will still be recorded on camera the most as a national average. But the city of Chicago will most definatley beat out London or any other British city.

I watched a news program about this last weekend. I can not remember which channel and I feel dumb because I recall thinking; Why is this not being discussed on ATS. I should have written it down and found a tape or transcript.

I just found one story on Fox News on Brit Hume's show. Here is a link to the transcripts which includes the interview in Great Britain -
Link to transcript.

A quote -

The newest tool in law enforcement in Britain is not a fancy new gun or computer program, it is relatively traditional loudspeaker. And the way those speakers are being used has some people saying they can hear the voice of Big Brother.

This next quote would seem to back up what the OP is saying -

KELLOGG (on camera): Great Britain is already crammed with CCTV cameras. The average Brit is photographed 300 times a day by some estimates. (voice-over): And for that reason, a lot of people call Britain "Big Brother Nation." They say that security cameras are intrusive enough, but putting speakers on them would add insult to injury.

The interview was conducted in the surveillance room. They showed examples of peoples reactions to the loudspeaker. The show I watched showed a lot more examples than this piece, but this transcript will give you the idea.

I think 300 times a day is getting pretty Big Brotherish. This sounds more like something I'd expect to see in Cuba or China. Not in Great Britain!!!

It looks like you can expect a lot more of these in London. The officials even suggest that this system would "play well" in the United States. This is pretty scary stuff.

KELLOGG: Local officials even suggest the system could play in the states with local concerns in the U.S. about community security. That remains to be seen, but it's moving ahead here. Similar systems will be installed in 20 areas in the coming months.

Here is an article from BBC -
BBC

This quote I find particularly scary.

The committee pointed out that CCTV was very popular with the public, which often called for its installation.

It would appear that the general public in Britain is not concerned about this intrusion into their everyday lives and privacy. I wonder how we would react here? I think this would not get the same response, but then again it might. There was not much reaction when Clinton admitted to the existence of ECHELON (spelling?) in an interview while explaining his taking over Utah State Land for a park. It was that older Lady who has been interviewing Presidents for many generations in the White House Press Conferences. She is fun to watch but very nasty.

There are up to 4.2m CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people - and the UK also holds 3.6 million DNA samples, which is the world's biggest database.

Everyone really should take the time to read both the transcripts and the article.

Blah blah blah Police state, blah blah blah, cameras, blah blah blah American Paranoia, blah blah blah

9/11 Activist Arrested and Charged with Espionage at Repiblican Debate

Look closer to home for your police state and please stop projecting your paranoia onto my country.

Originally posted by neformore
Blah blah blah Police state, blah blah blah, cameras, blah blah blah American Paranoia, blah blah blah

Denial is not just a river in Egypt
I think neformore needs a stern talking to from one of those shouting UK CAMS.

Originally posted by greatlakes
I think neformore needs a stern talking to from one of those shouting UK CAMS.

No.

What neformore needs is for people who don't live in the UK to stop grabbing figures off the web, adding two and two together, making five and then posting crap on here.

The whole premise of ATS is supposed to be "Denying Ignorance"

Both Stumason and myself have, in recent weeks, patiently explained in several posts the actual situation regarding cameras in the UK. We have stated tirelessly that the majority of the cameras are privately owned and for security purposes and not linked together.

We've explained about the lack of police on the streets in the UK, and the legal system preferring video evidence.

But, instead of listening to people that live here who are trying to deny ignorance, we get repeated "camera" threads and repeated "big brother" threads and repeated "Police State" threads, from people who are - to be frank - ignorant.

Originally posted by neformore
Both Stumason and myself have, in recent weeks, patiently explained in several posts the actual situation regarding cameras in the UK. We have stated tirelessly that the majority of the cameras are privately owned and for security purposes and not linked together. yadda yadda yadda

Thank goodness not all Brits share your opinions over the matter as evidenced in those past ATS threads you speak of. I see Brits weighing in on BOTH sides with valid concerns and research to back up the claims.

From THE INDEPENDENT. Headline reads "Big Brother Britain 2006: 'We are waking up to a surveillance society all around us"

Britain has sleepwalked into becoming a surveillance society that increasingly intrudes into our private lives and impacts on everyday activities, the head of the information watchdog warns.

Repeat after me: "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT".

New technology and "invisible" techniques are being used to gather a growing amount of information about UK citizens. The level of surveillance will grow even further in the next 10 years, which could result in a growing number of people being discriminated against and excluded from society, says a report by the Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas.

Repeat after me: "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT".

This includes the systematic tracking and recording of travel and use of public services; automated use of CCTV; analysis of buying habits and financial transactions; and the monitoring of telephone calls, e-mail and internet use in the workplace.

Repeat after me: "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT".

The major surveillance techniques include:
* Video cameras monitoring buildings, shopping streets and residential areas. Automatic systems can now recognise vehicle number plates and faces.

* Software that analyses spending habits and the data sold to businesses. When we call service centres or apply for loans, insurance or mortgages, how quickly we are served and what we are offered can depend on what we spend, where we live and who we are.

* Electronic tags to monitor offenders on probation.

* DNA taken from those arrested by the police and placed on a database.

* Information stored about foreign travel.

* Smart cards in schools to determine where children are, what they eat or the books they borrow.

* Taps on telephones, e-mails and internet use that can screened for key words and phrases by British and US intelligence services.

* The Government also still plans to introduce a new system of biometric ID cards, including "biometrics" - fingerprints and iris scans - linked to a database of personal information.

The group of academics who compiled the report have also predicted future trends in surveillance in the next decade. The include:

* Shoppers being scanned as they enter stores. This will be matched with loyalty card data to affect how they are handled, with big spenders given preferential treatment over others.

* Cars linked to global satellite navigation systems which will provide the quickest route to avoid congestion and allow police to monitor speed and to track selected cars.

* Employees subjected to biometric and psychometric tests plus lifestyle profiles with diagnostic health tests common place. Jobs are refused to those who are seen as a health risk.

* Schools using card systems to allow parents to monitor what their children eat, their attendance, academic and drug test results

* Facial recognition systems to monitor our movements using tiny cameras in lampposts and walls, and unmanned aircraft above.

Repeat after me: "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT".

Britain under surveillance

* The national DNA database holds profiles on about 3.5 million people.

* There are an estimated 4.2 million CCTV cameras in Britain: one for every 14 people.

* More than half of the UK population posseses a loyalty card issued by the firm that operates the Nectar scheme.

* Since 2002 there have been more than 8 million criminal records checks for jobs, of which around 400,000 contained convictions or police intelligence information.

* There are plans to expand capacity to read vehicle number plates from 35 million reads per day to 50 million by 2008.

* Some 216 catalogue companies in the UK are signed up to the Abacus data-sharing consortium, with information on 26 million individuals.

* The database of fingerprints contains nearly 6 million sets of prints.

* An individual can be captured on more than 300 cameras each day.

* By the end of 2002 law enforcement bodies had made more than 400,000 requests for data from mobile network operators.

* The number of motorists caught by speed cameras rose from 300,000 in 1996 to over 2 million in 2004.

* In the year to April 2005 some 631 adults and 5,751 juveniles were electronically tagged.

Repeat after me: "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT".

Now is this happening elsewhere, like for instance in the USA? YES a resounding YES, but I believe that the bulk of the people DO find it intrusive and a major invasion of privacy, and thus the schemes to incorporate the surveillance have been on a MUCH LOWER SCALE than what is seen in the UK.

But at least the people are aware of it being A BAD THING and thats the 1st step in prevention of such a thing happening, acknowledging it it exists.




[edit on 7-6-2007 by greatlakes]

Repeat after me.

STOP BEING SO BLOODING PATRONISING AND PROJECTING YOUR PARANOIA ONTO MY COUNTRY

Originally posted by neformore
Repeat after me.

STOP BEING SO BLOODING PATRONISING AND PROJECTING YOUR PARANOIA ONTO MY COUNTRY

Let him scream all he wants mate, you too stu (I'm a poet dont ya know it ) , because frankly what does this actually matter to the simple british punter?.......Can anyone else hear the tumbleweeds blowing past? Thats right because frankly he:
A) Does not live in this country
B) Doubt has even seen when he is talking about apart from looking through the actual cameras he is complaining about.....
C) And lastly, if he's complaining about invasion of privacy....what about the newspapers today? How many times has a national paper been brought into court for slander, invasion of privacy or tresspassing?

But these will fall on deaf ears my friends, the american nation was born out of paranioa and will continue to live in such until the next time they have a revolution. One thing I have to say though, if britain is such a big brother state....then why is there no tresspassing laws in scotland....? I mean apart from chopping down a fence or blowing your way through a wall there are no laws against tresspassing...if you wanted you probably could walk onto an MOD firing range and not be arrested (possibly getting shot is more worrying IMO)

Why is it we have the EU human rights laws? (Which I might add the US has not agreed to either....)

Why does the united kingdom allow mass riots and demonstrations?

Some areas of the US have lots of cameras much like London does, here in Las Vegas the camera count is pretty high with all the casinos and what not. You get used to them and ignore them they only come into play if some crime is suspected and the authorities decide to check the tapes.

I have posted on this subject a few times myself.

It seems that every time someone from the US see's an article about camera's in the UK they think "Big Brother" and invasion of privacy.

So here's a couple of story's from people I know.

I used to live and work in Birmingham - went to college there too, so I had quite a lot of friends in the city. Also. because of various factors it used to be one of the most dangerous cities in the UK.

One friend (a small unassuming kind of guy) had been mugged several times, simply due to his appearance and demeanour. This particular day, not long after police CCTV had become prevalent throughout the city centre, he had been out shopping for a new walkman.
He was followed and then accosted by 2 guys in what they thought was a quiet spot, ideal for their purposes.
The 2 guys cornered him, demanded he hand over his goods, money etc and threatened him with a knife, slapped him around a bit etc.
As they were doing this, they were observed on CCTV - the 2 louts (obviously enjoying terrorising him) were grabbed as they were leaving the vicinity, roughed up a bit (they resisted arrest) and thrown into the back of a police car.
Turns out that CCTV operators had been monitoring the guys as they started to follow my friend and then immediately it became obvious a crime was being committed sent the cops.
The 2 guys were arrested, charged, held without bail (due to previous crimes) and eventually sent to prison for a couple of years each.
In court they tried to protest their innocence - until the CCTV was shown, then they changed their minds about the BS stories they were trying to sell.
Their other defence was that cops had jumped on them because they were afro-carribean - this too was laughed out of court.

Another friend worked for the police as a civilian CCTV operator, whose job it was to monitor the camera's.
Unfortunately he got sacked.
It was the summer months, and the girls in the city were wearing less formal clothes than they might at cooler times of year.
He was sacked for continually scoping out the girls - zooming in on a particularly attractive chest for example.
So obviously someone watches the watchers.

As for me, I have repeatedly said that I feel safer with CCTV around.
It's even here in the small (about 22,000 population) town where I now live.
But then we've had a big influx of eastern european migrant workers, who have a bit of a bad element amongst them.
We had a few muggings and a rape, couple of knife fights - all the perps were locked up because of CCTV evidence, and then deported (down here they don't mess about - they just get rid).
In town there used to be free for alls pretty much every weekend - not any more, now you can walk home with no problems except that of keeping a straight line if you've had a drop too much.


So tell me, all those paranoid trans-atlantic cousins, how this makes us a police state?



BTW we now see lots of guys with hoods up, and caps underneath the hoods all year round in an attempt to avoid identification - what they don't seem to realise is that this simply alerts the operators to the fact they are up to no good - still not many criminals are bright sparks are they?

[edit on 7/6/2007 by budski]

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by neformore
Repeat after me.

STOP BEING SO BLOODING PATRONISING AND PROJECTING YOUR PARANOIA ONTO MY COUNTRY

Let him scream all he wants mate, you too stu (I'm a poet dont ya know it

) , because frankly what does this actually matter to the simple british punter?.......Can anyone else hear the tumbleweeds blowing past? Thats right because frankly he:
A) Does not live in this country
B) Doubt has even seen when he is talking about apart from looking through the actual cameras he is complaining about.....
C) And lastly, if he's complaining about invasion of privacy....what about the newspapers today? How many times has a national paper been brought into court for slander, invasion of privacy or tresspassing?

But these will fall on deaf ears my friends, the american nation was born out of paranioa and will continue to live in such until the next time they have a revolution. One thing I have to say though, if britain is such a big brother state....then why is there no tresspassing laws in scotland....? I mean apart from chopping down a fence or blowing your way through a wall there are no laws against tresspassing...if you wanted you probably could walk onto an MOD firing range and not be arrested (possibly getting shot is more worrying IMO)

Why is it we have the EU human rights laws? (Which I might add the US has not agreed to either....)

Why does the united kingdom allow mass riots and demonstrations?

Even more to the point, because of human rights laws, islamic hate preachers are allowed to spread their poison until it becomes too much - then they can be arrested and imprisoned or deported.
Abu Hamza has been imprisoned and some of his properties "confiscated", all benefits stopped and facing deportation when released.

Why is it we have the EU human rights laws? (Which I might add the US has not agreed to either....)

You do know the UK can opt put of the Human rights act at anytime right, they have opted out of EU Laws before. One thing about the UK it has become so frakin PC, You are not allowed to say anything incase it is deemed as racist, or deemed to be hatred towards other religions. The Police will soon have powers to stop and question you without given
you a valid reason..(can see alot of arrests as a result of this). People are being fined, stupidly for dropping litter, even if it is not their faults, or it was a accident. (Stupid Idea).

Abu Hamza has been imprisoned and some of his properties "confiscated", all benefits stopped and facing deportation when released.

Yuh look at how long it took for them to do so, He was allowed to spew his crap all over the UK before they did anything about it.

To me its more scare mongerin than anything else. Oh terroists, quick lets put cameras @ every street corner in the UK, yah oks I'll drop my pants a moonshine yas, nevermind the intrution into peoples private lives, (and Yes even CCTV has been abused before).

Us in the UK are to easily lead by the Gov. New Anti terroism Laws are being introduced, oh great more Intrusion on our lives.

1) Detention without charge beyond 28 days
2) Questioning after charge
3) Allowing intercept information in court
4)Register of convicted terrorists

We coped with Nazism, we coped with the cold war, we coped with Irish republicanism with seven days detention. That was all.

Then we went to 14 days, now we've got 28 days. If these people are innocent, when they are released they will become the most powerful public relations,

SOURCE

What ever happened to innocent before proven guilty?? This Gov is railroading us in to a Police State, and we as British citizens are gulable enough to do as we are told.

Got to watch those damned sneaky British... they are always up to something.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
You do know the UK can opt put of the Human rights act at anytime right, they have opted out of EU Laws before. One thing about the UK it has become so frakin PC, You are not allowed to say anything incase it is deemed as racist, or deemed to be hatred towards other religions.

Yes I do but could you see them getting it put through parliment? No I very much doubt it, MP's like the idea of police being unable to beat you to death on some lonely layby.

The Police will soon have powers to stop and question you without given
you a valid reason..(can see alot of arrests as a result of this).

Yeah did you not see how effective that was in Northern Ireland? Stop and question powers are nothing new, if they really want to talk to you they can do so.

People are being fined, stupidly for dropping litter, even if it is not their faults, or it was a accident. (Stupid Idea).

How is it "not thier fault" if they drop litter? If an officer SEES them doing so then frankly they deserve it, I personally like the idea of keeping our streets clean do you?

Look if you dont want to believe us then fine go ahead and believe what you want...believe the men in black suits are at the door...believe the army has a UAV above your house everyday because frankly I couldnt care less. Never mind the evidence presented to you because frankly if you fail to believe us then why should we believe you....perhaps it is "you" who is the blind sheep being led on by corporation controlled media and spin......just to mention mate your living in the one of the most liberal of the 4 states of the UK, we have no tresspass laws (go ahead...look it up)..

The government are not the only players in the game...

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Want some statistics? Not a single car on my street, or in my neighborhood has been broken into the past year. Not a single person has been murdered in my city the past year. Not a single houses has been broken into or vandalized in my neighborhoodwithin the past year. There is not a single part of the city, let alone the area itself that I would avoid at night simply because I am "unarmed." In a city of 45,000 people, I can safely say that we are surviving fantastically without the need for constant surveillance..

"Any many who sacrificies liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Originally posted by Axe0312
Want some statistics? Not a single car on my street, or in my neighborhood has been broken into the past year. Not a single person has been murdered in my city the past year. Not a single houses has been broken into or vandalized in my neighborhoodwithin the past year. There is not a single part of the city, let alone the area itself that I would avoid at night simply because I am "unarmed." In a city of 45,000 people, I can safely say that we are surviving fantastically without the need for constant surveillance..

"Any many who sacrificies liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Unfortuantly mate, your not living in my area....there are many areas I would not walk alone (hell there are quite a few I would drive through alone) and frankly would prefer if I could borrow a chally for the day if I needed to go down some roads.

I wasn't gonna post here as my fellow UKers are doing a splendid job of putting the less knowledgable in their place. But on reflection, one more nail in the coffin of the uneducated won't hurt.

I drive to work. I drive past at least 50 CCTV cameras. Apart from two GATSO cameras which are placed to catch speeding drivers, none of the 50 are used to monitor me individually. They are to detect traffic problems, which can then be used to highlight the issue (ie. Accident Ahead. Slow Down.) to other drivers and thus reduce the number of incidents. Despite the fact that I must have been seen on these cameras doing 100mph+ on occasion, I have not had a single visit or fine from the Police or Big Brother for doing so, because the cameras aren't there for that.

When I fill my car with fuel, there are cameras again. The sinister reason behind this is to potentially stop me filling up with fuel and then driving off without paying, as my car number plate and me are visible on camera.

At work there are 28 cameras all linked to 1 CCTV system inside my building. They are there to deter thieves and to ID them, whether they are my colleagues or customers. If an incident occurs which requires Police involvement, they will come and collect the CCTV footage and use it as evidence for a prosecution. Outside my place of work are another 10 or so CCTV cameras. These are monitored by the local Police, as on a weekend there are a few hundred drinkers all leaving drinking establishments at the same time. Should a disturbance occur, the Police can be on the spot in a couple of minutes to deal with the situation.

"IF YOU'RE NOT PARANOID, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR OR WORRY ABOUT"

The UK is a fantastic place, and if CCTV helps to keep crime down by just 0.001% then it's a good thing.

Britain is definitely more police statish than the US. Ive been living here for a year and a half, and I never am ceased to be amazed by the amount of cameras and intrusion of the nannystate it is here. My husband certainly noticed when he was in the states. He asked me where the speedcameras were, and I asked him what a speed camera was. We simply do not have them in the majority of areas in the states, where it seems they are all over the place here. I also notice far more cameras, both government owned and in private, in general. We have CCTV in the states in a number of places. But nowhere NEAR the level Ive seen it used here.

Not to mention numerous other state controls. Like microships in your dustbins to make sure you are recycling. Talk of per use road tax with microchips on cars. Massive burocracy just to add a flagpole to your property or convert your home. Spy sattelites to take pictures of your house to see if you have added on any improvements so they can tax you accordingly.

Sure. The US is definitely marching steadily towards police state status. In some areas, like New York City, are almost there. But Britain is there. And people here seem to have embraced it with little protest.

If Americans don't wake the hell up and start protesting LOUDLY surveilance as fervently as they protest gay marriage, we could end up in the same miserable situation.

The majority of cameras are, as stated by Stu Mason, privately own in shops and such. However, half a million cameras that are owned by the authorities and all technology has been abused in someway.

I believe that we Brits are test subjects for many things because of our character. The saying "step on an Englishman's foot and he'll apologise" springs to mind. We accept things that are forced onto us more than other nations might. We just don't complain about things.
I don't particularly like the idea of cameras everywhere in an ideal world, but we are not in an ideal world, and I have to accept that, and therefore have to accept the cameras too.
Some venues now have optical face recognition technology; been in development for about a decade apparently. Cameras can now flag-up people of interest to operators. i.e. known hooligans at football matches. That is the future I am afraid. Link