Preemption Needed to Stop Iran, Former War Pilot Says

Originally posted by id123

Preemption Needed to Stop Iran, Former War Pilot Says

www.crosswalk.com

Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - If the United States and the Western world do not stop Iran's nuclear program soon, Israel will have to launch a preemptive strike, just as it did against Egypt, Jordan and Syria at the beginning of the 1967 Six Day War, an Israeli Air Force official told Cybercast News Service

(visit the link for the full news article)

What's this "United States and the Western" crap?! Fine. Do it. Why do they want to look for us to do it?

Bush hasn't already backed us into a dark enough corner?

Walk the Walk, big boy, and quit waiting for Blunderdog Bush to save the day.

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
This too falls under the NPT treaty even though Israel is not a consignor since the heavy water came from an NPT country.

How do you know the heavy watter came from a NPT country? Or any other country in particuler?

Did it appear out of thin air? There was a huge scandal about it in the 60's. The UK,Israel and Norway were all involved.

Washington had refused to supply heavy water to Israel without a guarantee it would only be used for peaceful means.

US President John F Kennedy's defence secretary from 1961, Robert McNamara, told BBC News he was "astonished" by the cover-up.

"It is very surprising to me we were not told because we shared information about the nuclear bomb very closely with the British.

"The fact Israel was trying to develop a nuclear bomb should not have come as any surprise.

"But that Britain should have supplied it with heavy water was indeed a surprise to me."

The heavy water - surplus from a consignment bought from Norway in 1956 - was shipped from a British port to Israel.

They just seemed to be concerned with making a bit of money

Former Conservative defence and foreign office minister Lord Gilmour

Officials presented it as a deal between Norway and Israel.

Source

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

During first Gulf war they had to be bribed not to launch their nukes which was why we ran and gave them the patriots so quickly.

I haven't read that anywhere before. Reference?

Mordecai Venunu the man who exposed the goings on at the Dimona reactor has also said we do not know what future head of the Israeli state could be irresponsible enough to use nuclear weapons as well as to speak out that an accident at the Dimona plant could kill millions of people if an earthquake or other unforseen accident were to occur. Since Israel is such a small place the damage could spread into Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and even Egypt.

Even though Israel doesn't admit to it, we all know Dimona is being used to make nuclear weapons (or the parts, supply of things needed for Nukes). As for whether a future leader of Israel would use them or not, well, I guess one could. Just like a future leader of America could try to use American nuclear weapons, or a future Russian leader could try to use Russian nuclear weapons. I guess theres always a possibility. Same with an accident. One could happen, and it would be bad. But again, one could happen anywhere. Sure, there might be people inspecting others more, but as long as we're play with possibilities, well, anythings possible. Can anyone promise that theres 100% chance that nothing like Chernobyl will ever happen in America, or anywhere else thats NPT? Dimona has been operating sense the 60's, and while I would feel better if they allowed inspections and other things for safety, they seem to have done pretty good as far as safety is concerned.

So I guess you can look at what might, possibly, potentially happen with Israels nuclear program, someone coming to power and using weapons or an accident at a nuclear plant, and look at the possibility that Iran might use its gained nuclear capability in the future for energy and positive affect. Or you can look to the past and present, where I see an Israel that has never had a nuclear accident and never used it's nuclear weapons in almost half a decade, and sense they never signed the NPT, they aren't breaking it by not allowing inspections, and where Iran has repeatedly attempted to attack Israel and continues to threaten them and has expressed a desire to use any gained nuclear weapon against Israel. You can always worry about what might happen, but in the end, who knows what might happen in the future? The fact is Israel has shown itself to be more reliable (on this matter). Do you think Israel would give terrorists nuclear weapons to use against America, or western countries? Do you think Iran would if it got nukes? Considering they already give tons of weapons to people fighting Americans and allies in Iraq and Afghanistan? As long as we're going with potential futures, can you promise me that Iran won't give nuclear weapons to terrorists?

Originally posted by demorior
Do you think Israel would give terrorists nuclear weapons to use against America, or western countries? Do you think Iran would if it got nukes? Considering they already give tons of weapons to people fighting Americans and allies in Iraq and Afghanistan? As long as we're going with potential futures, can you promise me that Iran won't give nuclear weapons to terrorists?

I don't know. If it was to commit a false flag I don't know how far a person may go. As far as weapons go..ANY weapon sold to Israel under the export act is to be used for DEFENSIVE purposes only. Have a look and see how many times they have been caught with their pants down using our weapons and arms in Offensive uses against our agreements. They have already tried selling our technology to china so I trust them as far as I trust Iran which means not very far for either one.

With all the billions of dollars stolen as well as oil stolen, and weapons stolen, the weapons in the Iraqi insurgency can be coming from ANYWHERE including Israel. They have several of the biggest arms dealers residing there, and with Irans economy not being so hot you tell me that an Iranian with access to an armory may or may not be smuggling guns for money? As though even in America we dont have people doing the same thing except weapons being used here on our own soil against other americans in crimes? Its a BILLION dollar industry. The weapons dont have to be coming from Iran they can be coming from anywhere. There is NO conclusive proof that the Iranian government is supporting anything. So far it is only Bush and Israel making these claims and no proof.

Can you say Niger yellowcake document? Need I say more?

PieMan, I don't disagree with most of what you said in your last post. I think I see a difference between offencive actions and pre-emptive actions. But yes, there is problems with Israel and their actions in the past and present. There's arms dealers living there as well as in Iran and America and anywhere where lots of weapons are avalible to smuggle, buy and sell. I've seen no evidence of a connection between Israel selling any weapons to Iraqi insurgents, but its possible independant arms dealers are. Some people will do anything for money, greed overpowers concern for others a lot. But what I am trying to focus on in this thread is more of nuclear weapons. And as for as I have read and studied, they haven't ever tried to give them to terroriest or anyone else. They don't even admit to having them, let alone giving them out. But Iran admitidly would like to use them against Israel and if they could get them to terrorists to use against the 'Evil Satan' of the West, than I'm sure they would. For those reasons, I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, and support the resolutions by the UN against them developing nuclear weapons and support any strategical strike against their nuclear development facilities, so long as sufficiant proof is found of the level of their nuclear development. I'll say it again though, I wouldn't care if another country in the middle east, one that is more moderate and not going to use any nuclear tech. in an agressive way, developed some level of nuclear tech. It's Iran with nukes that concerns me.

Originally posted by demorior
They don't even admit to having them, let alone giving them out. But Iran admitidly would like to use them against Israel and if they could get them to terrorists to use against the 'Evil Satan' of the West, than I'm sure they would. For those reasons, I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, and support the resolutions by the UN against them developing nuclear weapons and support any strategical strike against their nuclear development facilities, so long as sufficiant proof is found of the level of their nuclear development. I'll say it again though, I wouldn't care if another country in the middle east, one that is more moderate and not going to use any nuclear tech. in an agressive way, developed some level of nuclear tech. It's Iran with nukes that concerns me.

I dont know where you get your info from but I have never seen anything other then Israeli rhetoric in regards to Iran wanting to get and use nuclear weapons specifically so they can attack Israel. Its foolish to even think that with all the hubub over an idea that they even want nukes that if they ever got them that they would live long after even getting to shoot off the first ICBM. Its ridiculous and its foolish. The only reason israel constantly brings up the subject (And they have claimed Iran was "this close" to having the bomb since 1995) is to keep the status quo in their own favor. You seem like an intelligent person. How is it that you are believing this junk that Israel is trying to pass off as being factual? Did you also believe that Iran was forcing Jews and Chriustians to wear colored badges too?

I've said it before and I will repeat myself. Once Iran is up and running they realize the Petroleum business is not long for this world. There are over 30+ reactors planned to come online within the next decade and Uranium is one of the hottest commodities on the market today, they intend on selling nuclear fuel and adding that to their list of Fuels to sell. Not only will this help them financially but it will finally prove once and for all that Israel is a cause of major problems in the Middle east. They are allowing this to prolong for a reason. They are going to make Israel look totally stupid. Do you really think if they wanted a bomb they couldn't have bought one already premade and fully tested? There are only 6million Jews in israel...you dont need an awful lot of bombs to do much damage. Their conventional weapons alone are quite capable of inflicting heavy casualties.

How The Israeli Government Works

This should give you an idea as to how the mind of the Israeli government works when things do not go their way, they turn to vilification and namecalling.

A former Politician and staunch Zionist who is no longer involved in Israeli politics and has since moved away has changed his mind and says the idea of zionism is wrong, and that the "Right of Return" top Israel should be abolished . The current Administration there reacts violently and threateningly

MK Otniel Schneller (Kadima) said Thursday that former Knesset speaker Avraham Burg, after his comments about Israel and Zionism must be prevented through legislation if necessary from being buried in the section in the Jerusalem cemetery on Mount Herzl reserved for national leaders.

"He should look for a grave in another country," the MK said, though Burg is not yet dead.

Burg will be entitled to a burial reserved for national leaders both because he served as head of the Jewish Agency, and because he was Knesset speaker.

In an interview in Haaretz Weekend Magazine, Burg said that he is no longer a Zionist, that he is in favor of abrogating the Law of Return and calls on everyone who can to obtain a foreign passport.

Schneller called Burg "Avraham-Azmi-Leibowitz," combining his name with those of Azmi Bishara, the former MK in self-exile wanted in Israel over treason charges, and Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz - an orthodox Jew and prominent critic of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians, who coined the term "Judeonazi."

Source

This is just someone who doesn't toe the line of Zionism. Imagine what happens when you have another country that is threatening their power in the region? They are going to try to destroy them and use every sympathy they can lay their hands on. Just read that article!

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
There is NO conclusive proof that the Iranian government is supporting anything. So far it is only Bush and Israel making these claims and no proof.

Here is the proof you were makeing refrence to.

NATO officials say they have caught Iran red-handed, shipping heavy arms, C4 explosives and advanced roadside bombs to the Taliban for use against NATO forces, in what the officials say is a dramatic escalation of Iran's proxy war against the United States and Great

abc news
thread

The UN have recently said that Iran is at least 3 years away from having the capability to create a nuclear weapon.

If anyone is going to attack the Iranian plant at Bushehr - it isn't going to be the US. Why would the US go to the bother of creating a ABM defence system in the Czech republic and Poland?

It's entirely possible that Israel would launch such strikes, but I dare say they would need a nod of the head from the US first.

Originally posted by RedGolem
Here is the proof you were makeing refrence to.

NATO officials say they have caught Iran red-handed, shipping heavy arms, C4 explosives and advanced roadside bombs to the Taliban for use against NATO forces, in what the officials say is a dramatic escalation of Iran's proxy war against the United States and Great

abc news
thread

You saw proof in that article?

It is inconceivable that it is anyone other than the Iranian government that's doing it," said former White House counterterrorism official Richard Clarke, an ABC News consultant.

inconceivable doesnt sound to sure to me.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates stopped short earlier this week of blaming Iran, saying the U.S. did not have evidence "of the involvement of the Iranian government in support of the Taliban."

wow I see STOPPED SHORT and DID NOT HAVE EVIDENCE here by the Secretary of Defense

But an analysis by a senior coalition official, obtained by the Blotter on ABCNews.com, concludes there is clear evidence of Iran's involvement.

"This is part of a considered policy," says the analysis, "rather than the result of low-level corruption and weapons smuggling."

But wait...we have an ANALYSIS by an UNNAMED PERSON which sounds promising.

The coalition analysis says munitions recovered in two Iranian convoys, on April 11 and May 3, had "clear indications that they originated in Iran. Some were identical to Iranian supplied goods previously discovered in Iraq."

and here we have INDICATIONS


Analysis, indications, inconceivable, stopped short and no evidence was found.


I guess that must mean its Definitely Iran!! Lets attack the evil bastards now!! OMFG The Sky is falling.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
..................
During first Gulf war they had to be bribed not to launch their nukes which was why we ran and gave them the patriots so quickly. If they had launched the nukes we would have lost a majority of the arabs that were working in the coalition.
................

Care to show facts and not fiction?....

The Israelis did not use their nukes against Iraq, nor Iran, even after every other day or so there are threats coming from Iranian officials about the annihilation of Israel...

Show facts please, instead of dwelling in your fantasy world.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
.................
Someone else said France sold them the technology, yes but under what pretenses. If the deal was legitimate then why were documents for Heavy Water for the plant falsified in order to be delivered. This too falls under the NPT treaty even though Israel is not a consignor since the heavy water came from an NPT country.

France not only sold them the technology, but they built the Israeli reactor Dimona.

If anyone tried to buy off Israel was also the French government.

On 3 October 1957, France and Israel signed a revised agreement calling for France to build a 24 MWt reactor (although the cooling systems and waste facilities were designed to handle three times that power) and, in protocols that were not committed to paper, a chemical reprocessing plant. This complex was constructed in secret, and outside the IAEA inspection regime, by French and Israeli technicians at Dimona, in the Negev desert under the leadership of Col. Manes Pratt of the IDF Ordinance Corps.

Both the scale of the project and the secrecy involved made the construction of Dimona a massive undertaking. A new intelligence agency, the Office of Science Liasons, (LEKEM) was created to provide security and intelligence for the project. At the height construction, some 1,500 Israelis some French workers were employed building Dimona. To maintain secrecy, French customs officials were told that the largest of the reactor components, such as the reactor tank, were part of a desalinization plant bound for Latin America. In addition, after buying heavy water from Norway on the condition that it not be transferred to a third country, the French Air Force secretly flew as much as four tons of the substance to Israel.

Trouble arose in May 1960, when France began to pressure Israel to make the project public and to submit to international inspections of the site, threatening to withhold the reactor fuel unless they did. President de Gaulle was concerned that the inevitable scandal following any revelations about French assistance with the project, especially the chemical reprocessing plant, would have negative repercussions for France's international position, already on shaky ground because of its war in Algeria.

At a subsequent meeting with Ben-Gurion, de Gaulle offered to sell Israel fighter aircraft in exchange for stopping work on the reprocessing plant, and came away from the meeting convinced that the matter was closed. It was not. Over the next few months, Israel worked out a compromise. France would supply the uranium and components already placed on order and would not insist on international inspections. In return, Israel would assure France that they had no intention of making atomic weapons, would not reprocess any plutonium, and would reveal the existence of the reactor, which would be completed without French assistance. In reality, not much changed - French contractors finished work on the reactor and reprocessing plant, uranium fuel was delivered and the reactor went critical in 1964.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
..................
During first Gulf war they had to be bribed not to launch their nukes which was why we ran and gave them the patriots so quickly. If they had launched the nukes we would have lost a majority of the arabs that were working in the coalition.
................

Care to show facts and not fiction?....

The Israelis did not use their nukes against Iraq, nor Iran, even after every other day or so there are threats coming from Iranian officials about the annihilation of Israel...

Show facts please, instead of dwelling in your fantasy world.

Hey at least I dont need to go to racist websites for a source.

You really needed me to get a source to tell you that Arab countries that were part of the coalition would have left had Israel become involved in the war? or if Israel decided to drop a nuke in retaliation for scud attacks??

Emergency meeting

The Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir, called an emergency meeting of the ministerial defence committee of senior ministers and military officers to decide Israel's response.

After the day-long meeting, the Foreign Minister, David Levy, told journalists no decision had yet been taken on whether to retaliate.

"Israel reserves the right to retaliate in the manner and with the scale and method of its own choosing," he said.

Any Israeli military action could break apart the multi-national coalition against Iraq by provoking the Arab members to withdraw their support.

Meanwhile, the Allied air bombardment of Iraqi military targets is continuing at the rate of 2,000 sorties a day.

Source

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Hey at least I dont need to go to racist websites for a source.

You really needed me to get a source to tell you that Arab countries that were part of the coalition would have left had Israel become involved in the war? or if Israel decided to drop a nuke in retaliation for scud attacks??

Say what?...the only person making "racist comments" and linking to "racist websites "has been yourself so far...

I asked you to back your claim and state which part of the website i gave about Israel was wrong... So far you have not presented anything to back your claim, and instead you yourself produced a "racist website with nothing more than racist claims and lies" and then claimed I am racist....when I have stated both have committed atrocities but you obviously just want to blame everything on Israel and you just keep making your racist claims...

Nowhere in any of the excerpts that i posted were there any racist comments....

You really need to get a dictionary to find out what a racist comment is...because you make them and apparently don't know it...

And nothing which you excerpted corroborates your claim btw.

Nowhere in that exceprt you gave says Israel had to be bought to not use a nuke.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by Muaddib]

I don't know if I read that statment by the Israeli government the same way, they said "He should look for a grave in another country." after the guy spoke out against Zionism. Now, while I think anyone should have Freedom of Speech without retribution, look at it from the Zionists point of view (bare with me on that). In their mind, they see Zionism as equal to the State of Israel. So in their minds, by speaking out against Zionism, he was speaking out against Israel existing as a state, and as such, he would have no rights to be buried in a country he doesn't think should exist. They didn't say they where going to put him in his grave, or anything to threaten his life directly. I don't nessesaraly agree with their statement, I just don't see it as a death threat.

My information regarding Iran's desire to use Nuclear weapons against Israel stems from Iran's repeated threats to attack Israel, as well as quotes like the one earlier in this thread (see link: www.iran-press-service.com.... So I think the threat there is real. But I don't believe everything that is told, I try to see if theres multiple sources, credible leads. I don't believe what was being said about Iran making Jew's and others wear markings on their clothes. In fact, the best reports seem to show that Iran treats the Jew's in their country relatively well. Like I've said, I don't think one side is always in the right and another in the wrong. All sides have things that need to be resolved. But Iran is the more unstable one, as far as potential to misuse weapons of mass distruction. If they were simply building reactors to provide power and a resource to sell, I would be fine with that. But if thats the case, why don't they let inspecters in to verify that, as per their NPT agreement? Waiting to reveal that won't make Israel look at more foolish, it can only lead to them potentially getting a pre-emptive attack and losing all their progress and potential to make a product, and I don't think they would do all of that just to make a point with Israel.

Thank you for your well thought out discussions PieMan, even though we see some things differently, I can see your a intellegent person as well.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Analysis, indications, inconceivable, stopped short and no evidence was found.

As to the no evidence part of the above quote.

The April convoy was tracked from Iran into Helmand province and led a fierce firefight that destroyed one vehicle, according to the official analysis. A second vehicle was reportedly found to contain small arms ammunition, mortar rounds and more than 650 pounds of C4 demolition charges.

Reminds me of something I was once told, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, it is most likely a duck. Or no matter how make up you put on a duck, it is still a duck.
sorce

[edit on 7-6-2007 by RedGolem]

Originally posted by demorior
I don't know if I read that statment by the Israeli government the same way, they said "He should look for a grave in another country." after the guy spoke out against Zionism.

The whole point of it was the vilification. They attacked his character. Just as they did with Desmond Tutu, with the former head of the UN Koffi Annan, the new leader now Ban Ki, and Former president Jimmy carter...anything or anyone going against their grain is vilified and discredited. The same way you see Israeli rhetoric regarding Iraq , the same way you are seeing it for Iran.

Its just like Benyamin Netanyahoo said following 9/11 It was good for Israel...why? because it gave them a boost in the arm to do and speak freely agasinst arabs without fear of negative PR. America was hating arabs then too at the time. It makes things very easy for them to say things and not have people question it.

This labeling of "Arabs" and "Jews" is so disturbing to me that it almost makes me sick. If Jews are from "Arabia" and the "Arabs" are from Arabia, isn't that the same thing???? I think there are two forces at work here, the Arabs who want a Caliphite (small group I think) and the Jews who want there OWN Caliphite in Western type culture and Capitalism. You can label it what you want, but I just dont believe in LABELS.

This is the same 'ol stuff that has been happening for CENTURIES and EVERYONE in this world needs to STOP labeling each other and learn to get along.

I have met many of Arabs and I have met many of Jews. There just people, like you and me. Our DNA is the same and the only thing that divides us is Religion, Color, and culture. If we ALL can learn to accept that these three things are pushed upon ANY society whether there in Africa, Russia, The Middle East, Asia, ect. than we can and should learn to accept each other for who we are.

My mind is so clear on this because living in Fresno, CA where you could walk the street and see a Black Person, Arab Person, Asian Person, Caucasion Person, Mexican Person, and each and everyone of them are Brainwashed to believe we should look at Religion, Color, and Culture to define who we are, it just doesnt calculate. We need to look beyond this and just take people for whom they are as a PERSON.

The US was the same way only until the 70's as far as "Womens Rights" and "Blacks" but I feel in a personal way that the only reason we still have the same problems that other Countries have as far as the three reasons mentioned above is that its basically FORCED upon us.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
[Hey at least I dont need to go to racist websites for a source.

Pieman, don't try to say your not a racist!

Your the biggest bigot on this board!

You hate everything Israeli, Republican, or Christian, and you spend all day on message boards proving it!

[edit on 6/8/07 by FredT]

Originally posted by BugZyZuncle

Pieman, don't try to say your not a racist!

Your the biggest bigot on this board!

You hate everything Israeli, Republican, or Christian, and you spend all day on message boards proving it!

HI BUGZY!! They let you out from under that bridge tonight?? What do they feed trolls anywayzzzzz? Purina Troll Chow?

You just see Israeli criticism and it makes your blood boil huh? too bad.


Now go back under your bridge like a nice troll will ya!