The Declining Middle class and the Coming Civil War

Conservatism NEVER moves a society forward.

Well, there is the Scripture about when evil comes to power, the righteous hide themselves.

However. Conservatives brought society out of slavery.

Conservatives increased medical care and education around the world.

Those are historical facts.

Your assertion is opposite the facts.

. . . why bring religion into it . . . a thread about economics . . .

Guess it's my error.

I thought it was a thread about plausible, predictable elements of a civil war in the USA.

Perhaps a warning at the beginning that the discussion was only to be about economic aspects of the predicted civil war would have been helpful.

I didn't realize that only kosher, sanitized, censored elements of such a predicted civil war would be allowed in the discussion. I incorrectly ASSUMED that any elements of, contributing toward, such a civil war would be fair grist for the mill.

Where do I deposit my mea culpas?

Since religion is now in the mix in this topic, I'd like to add a couple thoughts, I hope it's ok and I promise I wont proselytize or anything.

There are some legitimate concerns about economy that are in the Bible. I think somewhere it says something about "honest weights and measures". This is in reference to gold and silver. It also says something about usury (interest) and that it's bad and we shouldn't do it. I think today some Islamic nations still follow that. It also says we shouldn't be in debt. I'm no theologian, and there is no way I could actually look up the scriptures, and I wouldn't want to out of deference to folks not into that.

The reason why I think it is relevant is because these are principals founded in the Constitution. "And Congress shall have the power to coin money". Here it clearly says "coin" and not "print. I think the framers were wise enough to foresee the inherent problems in a paper money system. For practicality, paper is fine, as long as it is backed by honest weights and measures of gold and silver at a 1:1 ratio, not the 100:1 like we had in the fractional reserve model, and now we don't even have that, lol.

Back in the 50's and 60's older people tell me that being in debt was seriously looked down upon, probably because it went against teachings in the Bible. Today, if you are not in debt, you are looked down upon, and our society is both economically and morally bankrupt.

In closing, there is this guy Jason Hommell who has a site www.silverstockreport.com... and this guy is probably the worlds leading expert on silver. He advocates going back to a silver/gold standard, and he wrote a plan on how to do it and make it work. Something about linking silver to gold at a set ratio like 50:1 so they rise and fall together. That way government can't play 1 off the other and cause problems like they did before.

being badly in debt was feared...

my mom could remember the poorhouses that waited for those that couldn't pay their debts...

en.wikipedia.org...

before that, it was the debtor's prisons.

and many that went through the depression were even more conservative, heck with being in debt, make sure you have a nice nestegg for when times got overly rough.

Americans now days, are ripe for the picking, future slaves waiting to be used for whatever purpose that it is decided that they can be used for....throughout history, there is more time that things like slavery, debtor's prisons, and poorhouses were used for those not holding their own, or hopelessly in debt than our more kinder method of today.....social welfare, bankruptcy, and more lines of credit.

www.counterpunch.org...

and, I see that I ain't the only one thinking about this..

[edit on 3-6-2007 by dawnstar]

In the days of Rome the conservatives threw Christians to the lions.
The conservatives of the day opposed Muhammad.
The conservatives of the day opposed the Reformation.
The conservatives of the day burnt so-called witches and other heretics at the stake.
The Tories were the conservatives during the American revolution.
The Royalists were the conservatives during (and after) the French revolution.
The conservatives of the day were the slave holders and their allies during the Civil War.
***NOTE: The abolitionists were considered radicals, not conservatives since they
threatened the status quo***
the KKK is a conservative organization.
The Nazis and the Fascists were extremely conservative political parties.
Every armed militia I have ever heard of are right wing conservative.
Jim Crow were conservative laws designed to keep the status quo and blacks down.
The conservatives of the day opposed the new deal which got us out of the depression.
The conservatives opposed civil rights.
The White Civic Leagues were conservative organizations.
Conservatives supported aparthied in South Africa.
Conservatives oppose the woman's right to chose.
Conservatives opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.
Conservatives oppose gay rights including marriage.
Conservatives generally are opposed to environmental regulations.
Conservatives oppose universal health care for all Americans.
Conservatives oppose the notion of human influenced global warming.... etc. etc. etc.

Need I go on?

So tell me again whats so positive about about conservatism?

Conservatism by its very definition stands in opposition to change and in favor of the status quo.

From my college paper on the subject:

" In many ways, this conservative approach, is, if not admirable, then certainly understandable. Change for changes’ sake eventually becomes sterile, and a culture that embraces it without reservation loses authenticity, the power to inspire, and ultimately all reason for being."

At the same time a society that does not change or there is no progressive movement forward becomes equally sterile and eventually dies. According to Oswald Spengler, such a society can last thousands of years but is essentially dead. A prime example would be Egyptian society between the end of the New Kingdom and the coming of Christianity. No matter who ruled the state, the culture had become stagnate and had long since ceased being a vibrant, creative one; only the hollow forms remained.

This is also from my college paper:

"These charismatic churches looked back to the early church of the apostolic age, and the miracle of the Pentecost as its model and inspiration. At the same time they embraced the classic Calvinist ideal of a “shining city on the hill”, and a truly just Christian society. This Christian ideal led many of the mid-nineteenth century evangelic churches to embrace a stunning array of progressive, indeed liberal causes, ranging from the abolition of slavery, to the temperance movement to ban alcohol, to such feminist causes as women’s right to vote, as well as penal and educational reform. In this sense they continued to embrace logos as their guide. They reasoned, along with the great thinkers of the time about the ultimate perfectibility of man. They believed that by working towards a just and honorable society centered on Christian ideals, they would be creating a world in which each soul would be able to reach their full potential in Christ."

I see very little of that progressivism remaining in modern American evangelic Christianity... it exists but a rabidly conservative funnymentalism that embraces such notions as the rapture which is a 19th century interpretation of scripture by Charles Nelson Darby seems to be the norm.


Regardless all this is off thread.



[edit on 3-6-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
In the days of Rome the conservatives threw Christians to the lions.
The conservatives of the day opposed Muhammad.
The conservatives of the day opposed the Reformation.
The conservatives of the day burnt so-called witches and other heretics at the stake.

Grover, I think you are equating conservatives with fundamentalists. A conservative is not necessarily a fundamenatlist. While I am, at least for the most part, a conservative, I certainly am not a fundamentalist when it comes to doctrine.

I am just trying to point out who were the conservatives during those specific times.

I have no respect for funnymentalists or any other extremists of either political leaning.

Again, conservatives and fundamentalists are not the same thing. You keep trying to use the two terms interchangeably.

I know the difference and no I am not using them interchangeably.

I was specifically responding to BO XIAN and his statements like this one:

["Christians, conservatives as we are the only ones of significant conviction and motivation to hinder their rush to the tyrannical global government.']

and my little list was in response to this:

["Progressives" is an oxymoron . . . they've helped us progress all the way back to the corruption and hedonism of Sodom and Gomorrah."]

When you look at the one group that leans most heavily towards authoritarianism it is the funnymentalists, Christian, Jewish, Muslim... it doesn't matter.

I was pointing out each of those in my listings that you emphasized were the conservatives of their day. Funnymentalism of the type you mean is a recent phenomenon, historically speaking, and is a response to the pressures of a modern secular society and as such....the term does not apply further back than 150 years or so.

I can respect a conservative, political or religious, even though I am not likely to agree with them... I have no respect for extremists... as I said earlier.




[edit on 3-6-2007 by grover]

The revolution will never come they say. But then again will the revolution be televised?

According to the old Gil Scott Heron song... "The Revolution will not be Televised."

I suspect that when all hell breaks loose in this country, it will be seen worldwide.

Well thats only because we are so egotistical and self absorbed that we think the rest of the world will stop what they are doing and pay attention to us simply because we are who we are.... kinda like Paris Hilton... then again if hell breaks loose here the odds are its going to be just as bad if not worse elsewhere are people will be too busy to pay attention to those damned fool Americans.

Originally posted by grover
then again if hell breaks loose here the odds are its going to be just as bad if not worse elsewhere are people will be too busy to pay attention to those damned fool Americans.

How would it be that Americans would be "foolish" by standing up against the corruption that is bringing down the middle class in this country? We are only being foolish by standing by and allowing it to continue.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Because we won't. We are far too comfortable to rock the boat or to seek any form of radical change within the system until things are so far out of control that any change would have debatable results.

As a people we are spoiled and pampered. When for example: I (who am on a meager disability from the Social Security and the VA) could move to just about any other part of the world and live like royality on what little I get here something is wrong.

No the way things are done in America will not change until we are forced to by circumstance, and possibly not even then.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by grover]

This civil war will not be two-sided. As more people are pushed into groups that ideologically think the same, agrarian hamlets will be the outcome. City-States of the rich and powerful will re-emerge, separated also across political lines. I can't see the middle class--the backbone of america--lowering its standard of living any further than is forecast within the coming decade.

I think if things go bad with this election via rigged voters or voter fraud like it most likely will- a civil war will be the only way to stop the madness. People need to stop being told what to think- and think for themselves.

This is the first time I have seen this thread - Excellent post SpeakerOfTruth and lots of insightful input from everyone as well. I flagged it.

I think that there are certainly rumblings that people, particularly the middle class, are unhappy. However, I think that society in general is sadly too comfortable and too distracted to initiate any real change. At least for the time being.

As discussed briefly in another thread, I think that the citizenry is in a state of cognitive dissonance. In other words, all of their experience and observation tells them that things are not right in the U.S. but the government and media tell them differently. They can't deal with the mental conflict this causes, they internalize it as their own failure or incompetency and so they just dial out and become apathetic. It's easy to do because our society is quick to ply them with distractions like celebrity gossip and salacious news stories. Consequently nothing changes.

Examples:

Most middle class people are having trouble making ends meet even though most families have two income earners - but the government and media constantly spin economic data to reflect growth and stability. The stock market always goes up, etc. A family might feel like its just them, they're doing something wrong. The husband blames the wife and vice versa, they don't talk about it to anyone else, they are isolated and overwhelmed, they dial out. Nothing Changes

Most middle class people would say they are concerned about the effect of immigration on their communities, education, healthcare, wages and homeland security. They want the borders closed and monitored - but the government has just recently failed to pass any meaningful legislation regarding the issue and insists that immigration is a necessary part of our economy and really the foundation of our heritage. The middle class might feel disillusioned, unappreciated and over-taxed to support all these people getting a free ride. They see the America they know disappearing before their eyes, they don't recognize their towns anymore. They feel isolated and overwhelmed, they dial out. Nothing Changes

Most middle class people do not fully understand or accept the government's rationale for war in Iraq or what of any real significance we have been doing there for four years - but the government keeps beating the drum, asking for more troops, more time and just last week asked for double the money. Most middle class Americans would admit to supporting the troops but not the action in Iraq. Now add the prospect of war with Iran to that confusion. They feel isolated and overwhelmed, they dial out. Nothing Changes

These are just three, admittedly overly simlified, examples. The results are the same and also apply to many other topics. The average middle class person has a mental disconnect with what they know to be true and good for America versus what the media and government tell them. They can't reconcile the two, they can't seem to effect any real change and so they just give up. Isn't this really what the government wants? A compliant populace.

Until such time that the inconveniences and economics of an over-bearing and out-of-control government outweigh the comforts and distractions of modern culture - I am sad to say the American people will be content to keep playing video games and talking about celebrities.

Originally posted by BO XIAN

Conservatism NEVER moves a society forward.

Well, there is the Scripture about when evil comes to power, the righteous hide themselves.

However. Conservatives brought society out of slavery.

Conservatives increased medical care and education around the world.

Those are historical facts.

Your assertion is opposite the facts.

I'll think you'll find that was the Republican Party, not Conservativism as a political philosophy. The two are quite distinct, I assure you. To paraphrase Edmund Burke (because I can't be bothered to dig through his hefty tomes for a single quote), Conservativism is the belief that tradition and culture should dictate the policy of the nation. Since slavery was widely practised throughout the world, it is practically a tradition, even in the USA.

Futhermore, those Conservatives who back change, back it slowly. A true Conservative would have phased slavery out over time, if he felt strongly enough that it needed to stop. Since the philosophy is inherently opposed to large scale change and upheaval, many true Conservatives of the time would have been at least wary of attempts to abolish slavery.

The ONLY thing that will shake the average " Joe six pack ' people from their slumber will be when it is too late. If the paychecks stop, and the mortgage defaults, and the middle class find themselves homeless, they will WELCOME a nice Halliburton built ' transition zone ' as their new homes. The middle class is being killed, literally as well as figuratively.

When the sleepers get off the Tv hypnosis and see what is really happening, the elements of control will already be in place. Too late. We are a nation of sports and Nascar and Fox news and always one paycheck away from disaster, and that is EXACTLY where they want us.

I live in a very rural area in Appalachia, in the mountains of far western North Carolina, and the people here have degraded so far so fast it is sickening: All of the mills and factoris have closed, gone to Mexico, and scores of illegal Mexicans have moved here to take the jobs from the local boys; they will work for less, and so get the work. The locals are forced into menial jobs, not trades, or move away. Those who stay in their hometowns are either going to get a college degree and become a government worker or teacher in the schools, or just end up working whatever odd jobs they can get.

It used to be a generation agho that the family small farm provided the bulk of the food for a family, with the men and often the women working seasonal jobs or trades to supplement the farm. But the farms are ALL gone, basicallyu, due to development for the people fleeing the cities. The only jobs here now are in the building trades for the rich people building new or summer homes here, and those are the ones the Mexicans have taken over. They are using social services to a disproportionate degree, are becoming a major part of the criminal justice system locally, and are resented locally by the people who se them as brazen criminals for being allowed to get away with all this: When the illegals are stopped for driving without a license, they get a $ 160.00 fine and go right back to driving, no insurance, and many times drunk.

Sure, some of them are Ok and just trying to get ahead..but the fact that they are ilegals and do not get deported, and take American jobs, is not right.The jobs here are NOT the ones that ONLY Mexcians will do, they are the skilled and semiskilled trades that used to fetch 10-15 dollars an hour: brickmasons, carpenters, landscapers,etc. Now the going rate in 8-10 bucks an hour to hire a Mexican, paid in cash of course with no taxes taken out: These gangs of illegals hang around gas stations and wait for people to come get them to work, and this is in tiny towns and hamlets, with only a few thosand population. Imagine it on a huge scale in the cities and you can see the potential for a war between ' us and them ' in the future.

I can envision in some future time of lack, when every man is trying to keep a roof over his families heads and food in their bellies, middle class desperation, that the first to be attcked will be the illegals: Black gangs always hate Mexican gangs anyway, and the natural animosity will only add to the likleihood that several elements of society will band together to fight for survival against tghe government forces.

It is possible that many middle class people will find out that the urban gangsters may be a saving grace and not a threat when it all comes down: Urban gangs are better equipped and trained in street skills and survival already, and would no doubt be the allies in case of a major problem. Inner city gangs moving into the countryside in search of space and supplies and safety; residents ready to share with them in exchange for some protection from shared enemies..then after the illegals are gone we have to deal with the government forces, who will be suppressing us to degrees that we cannot fathom right now.

think about it, are you aware of how many MILLIONS of Americans are ONE check away from ruin? It is a fact. Many of us in this nation would PANIC if the social security checks stopped coming; they would be left unable to pay rent, electric or other bills. Just a three or four month glitch in the system say if the compters all went haywire or were destroyed, could cause a massive series of catastrophic events to occur;millions displaced onto the streets, naturall headed to the CAMPS set up for just such ' emergencies '. Too easy to do; just shut the checks off for a while and watch chaos start.

All it takes in a complicated and electronic society is one or two events that can cripple the entire system, and cause panic and chaos. The people who pulled 9-11 off have plans for all of us, and they include forcing us into open warfare against each other and then in order to institute the rules that will finally enslave us. The rich will ALWAYS live in protected and guarded places where they are immune from the problems, the rest of us will be divided into two groups: those who serve and protect the rich, and those who are either in camps or under close survelliance at all times, a closed society,, and all for our own safety of course!!

It is coming, the writing is on the walls, and when the next false flag attack from the Cheney gang happens, watch for the situation to degrade so fast that new and harsh measures against us will be immediate and ruthless. The controllers have set all this up and will not allow interference.Anyone who tries to stop it will be " wellstoned " and killed or converted to their side.

I think it is too late and that it will happn, and soon. If the middle class people find themselves without a roof, it will jump off, and you can lose a home today in a heartbeat.One heartbeat away from ruin and chaos, great place to live, huh?