The Declining Middle class and the Coming Civil War

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

I dont see capitalist states willingly turning into socialist states. Not without massive popular agitation from the people. And by that i mean social and economical revolution.

Well, Inspiteof, I don't particularly have the positive outlook on socialism that you do. However, I will say this, if there is a civil war, the government of this country will agree to help the people because a government in fear will do what it deems necessary to survive.

If a civil war breaks out, we certainly will have a government in fear. That, without the least bit of hesitation, I can guarantee you of.

I think a civil war is the only solution at this point, the sooner the better.

Originally posted by Jillian_Bacardi
I think a civil war is the only solution at this point, the sooner the better.

Jillian, it may be. It is pretty obvious to me that our politicians aren't going to make the proper decisions to bail us out of the mess they have so conveniently woven. Until the people in this country finally say enough is enough, I don't see much changing.

Here is some more data that supports what I have said up to this point:

# Families are increasingly unable to save for a rainy day. Five years into an economic recovery, average job growth is one-fifth that of previous business cycles and wages are flat when inflation is factored into the equation. At the same time, the cost of families’ top five expenditures—medical care, housing, food, household operations and cars—have risen more than twice as fast as the cost of the bottom five items. To maintain their day-to-day consumption, families took on a record amount of debt equivalent to 126.4 percent of disposable income in the first quarter of 2006.
# Families capable of weathering this financial crunch are diminishing. Less than a third of families boast accumulated financial wealth equal to three months’ income (counting all financial assets, including retirement savings accounts minus debt), a decline of 6.3 percentage points to 32.5 percent in 2004, the last year in which this data was available, from 38.8 percent in 2001. This trend is particularly pronounced among typical middle class families—dual income couples between the ages of 36 and 54 who earn between $18,500 and $88,030 a year. Families in this middle 60 percent of income distribution who have three months’ income stowed away in liquid financial wealth declined 10.5 percentage points over the same period: to 18.3 percent from 28.8 percent.

Nothing to fall on

This is a great discussion, and one thing I would like to add is I think it would be constructive for people to stop buying so much crap!

It's going to happen anyway, certain luxury items will no longer be affordable for the shrinking middle class, once that starts to happen, the companies will hurt and have to change.

Most of the time, people, citizens are referred to as "consumers". Think about that...we are defined by what we purchase, this is wrong on so many levels. It's dehumanizing to agree to that - you become a slave to your credit card debt -this is not an accident.

Think about the preditory companies selling you high interest rate cards and pretty much turning people into indentured servants because they want "stuff" they can't really afford.

A few years ago, I got rid of all my cards and will never get another one as long as I live. That responsibility lies with the individual-people need to be better educated about debt but unfortunately something so practical and necessary is not broadcast nearly as much as ads for flat screen TV's and other nonsense.

Debt is a ball and chain for individuals and the country as a whole. Let there be solvency on earth, and let it begin with me.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, Inspiteof, I don't particularly have the positive outlook on socialism that you do.

And thats fine, thats what makes this site so fun. I just see it as this, on one hand we have a choice between a social system that allows class differences to reach monumental proportions furthing the discord of the masses. And on the other we have a system which attempts to balance the class divide by eliminating the souce, personal capital accumulation. My personal choice is with the latter. Though socialism has an inherant control issue (regulation of the economy, media, and government) that control issue can be used for the people by the people (democratic socialism anyone?) Socialisms dedication is to the welfare of the people and profits be damned, Capitalisms dedication is to the accumulation of profits and the people be damned. Id rather throw my chips in with a government that aims to make life better, than one that aims to make itself better.

EDIT: Its not that i have a positive outlook on socialism, rather that i have apositive outlook on the will of the people. All governmental bodies can succumb to corruption, but if the people will the change they want to see, it can happen.

However, I will say this, if there is a civil war, the government of this country will agree to help the people because a government in fear will do what it deems necessary to survive.

If a civil war breaks out, we certainly will have a government in fear. That, without the least bit of hesitation, I can guarantee you of.

This is where we disagree (well, another place anyways.) History has shown that when the plutocrats, dictators, and aristocrats are backed into a corner, the repressive abilities of the state come in. Virtually every social revolution that has occured in South America and elsewhere has been attacked, encircled, embargoed, and sabotaged by the previous reactionary regiem (often with dollars and guns from Captailist states like the US.) For the express purpose of protecting the existing social and economic order.

If there was a civil war in the US (again) the state apparatus would come down heavily on the population, and would spare no one that stood in its way of protecting the existing social order. Capitalists arent turncoats unless it benefits them. Socialism threatens the very lifestyle the state protects, IMO, they would rather go out fighting (or flee into exile) than just flip side and hand their luxuries over to the people. History, in this instance, is on my side.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Originally posted by Pilot
This is a great discussion,

Agreed

It's going to happen anyway, certain luxury items will no longer be affordable for the shrinking middle class, once that starts to happen, the companies will hurt and have to change.

This is where i dont agree. Luxury items were never intended for the middle and poor class citizens. They were intended for the elite. THe middle class just happened to be making democratic headway and worked themselves up the ladder. But of course, as you pointed out, this is changing.

To further my point, look at third world Capitalist state like Ziaere or Nicaragua. Luxury items are there and puchased from oversea's, but only the upper echelon can buy them because the rest of the population is working at subsistence wages (while that upper class thats purchasing these items rakes in huge sums of money, and the overseas investers makes even more.)

What i see happenning in the future is the rich 2% will continue to buy luxury items that the rest of us make, while we scrable day and night to make enough to feed ourselves and our families.

Compaines that produce luxury itmes will probably see a loss in profit at first, while the wealth is still transferring itself up the class ladder, but once its pretty much consolidated, those same companies will see an increase in puchases. After all, when your a rich land owner with a thousand surfs at your bidding, what the hell do you buy? food for them and their families? Or a new ivory backscratcher?

I have read over at least 100 different signatures of people but this one is the best for the moment and I am now putting it up for you to read:
“America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.”
-Claire Wolfe, 1995-Nov

We truely are at an awkward stage, too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot them because there is just not enough support YET.

Any future civil war will more than likely start out as a revolution, no direct one vs. one but a unknown force fighting a group or groups. Later on it will turn into a civil war after sides have been drawn.

Another note is that every single private interest group such as radical christian successionists to Neo-nazi, KKK, skin-head, black seperatist, white seperatist will do a bid for power. They are small but when you factor in all them together you have a problem. So yes another war will take on a racial application and even religious pending on who is fighting whom. At the same time we have Aztlan and La Raza running around...

How to fight the above off? Treat people equally, treat them with dignity and respect. That easy folks, that is how above said groups gain power and momentum: hate, fear, inequalities and being spat on or downtrodden. Remove those factors and you have already done a severe number on them.

Nationwide, well if it is long and drawn out you face one heck of a devastating war, and I mean that sincerely. The shorter the war the better, however there is no doubt in my mind a war like this would last LESS than 5 years. No way no how. Just too much darn land to have to keep track of for EITHER side!

Next you must remember that it will probably go down into Mexico and North into Canada, all three nations will be torn appart, Mexico because the CIA sponsors their dictators and drug cartels, then the Corporations who shread everyone even the Canadians. We are all in this together or we loose. That easy and flat, sorry folks, that is reality:
All or Nothing.

Next we have the problem of 4th parties trying to get in, China, Europe, etc. The world will be looking at us and be forwarned that they could try and slash us while we are weak and take over during the chaos! So you must be able to maintain a two front war at all times. Hard? Oh yeah. Impossible? No, so long as you stay on your toes and know what your up against. Know Thyself and thy enemy. Read up on Sun Tzu.

Economically it will be harsh, and I mean HARSH! China will be upset along with India because of loss of factories and "technilogical jobs (tech support...)" so be ready for hate mail metaprohically speaking. Also as the revolutionaries gain ground, the other side with the superior technology will bomb the bejesus out of the newly aquired towns and cities with little to no remorse for loss of life. So LA might not exist if it is taken, they will carpet bomb it before giving it up. Also if you make factories they WILL bomb the unholy hell out of the factories. So things are going to be brutal for employment untill viable and realiable anti-air defences are established.

Now I can keep going but I am going to conclude rather than bore you with even more information of how things would work out. Just sit down and think about it logically for a while and you will get my drift pending on how much information you have available to you right now.

In conclussion I will give one last problem faced, not us though, but other nations:
Taiwan, Japan, South Korea.
Remember, North Korea wants SK, China wants Taiwan back. Japan is stuck smack dab in the middle of this inferno. Currently the USAF and Navy is all that keeps war from breaking out, that and good will, as for the Koreas... a giant mine field which could be taken out in a few days hands down... So if we lapse into war these three will be on their own for over 10 years minimum untill we get a navy working again and can bring out AF into those regions. They might last, they might not, will they be mad because they got dumped? Yes. So we must keep ties going with them or not at all, that is the choice, cut off and focus like mad and end it sooner so we can get there faster, or face a possible THREE FRONT war which is beyond questionable when it comes to survival. So pray they can hold while be duke it out and if we the people win that we can get to them in time. Who knows, if Japan puts its technology to use in warfare they might throttle the Chinese from a distance for all we know, shoot the Japanese are more advanced than the USA as it stands. THE most usage of technology in the world, and whenever you give them a rocket they find ways of making it simpler and better... They did that with rockets used for space just recently, they modified the USA's model and made it better and so it can be assembled in 1/3 of the time... They know what they are doing, give them a little credit folks...

Also here is the final remark:
What if we loose? What if the dictators win or the ELITE as they are also known? The NWO folks is another name for them. That is reality too, we cannot promise who will win, but you know what? We will be able to say one thing if we fail: "Those SOB's are going down with us! We fought them! We did not stand asside and let this come to pass!"
We will have taken a more honorable route if it comes to warfare, pending on how we fight the war.

I would like to quote a man from Michigan:
"The pen is mightier than the sword, but always keep a sword handy for when the pen fails."

Thank you and goodnight, flames and hate-mail are to be directed to my message box.

There isn't going to be a civil war in America any time soon don't kid yourselves. There is not going to be a race war, there is not going to be a class or religious war either.

Once the constitution is totally shredded by this and the future occupant(s) in the White House, and the economy collapses, (probably in the 2020's) which it will; there is no avoiding that, what you will see a splintering of America into regional states.

Whether what is left of the federal government is willing to put up a fight to hold the nation together afterwards or not will be the issue. Somehow though I doubt it will happen for the prosaic reason that it won't have any money to do anything with.

America as a federal system is doomed. Both parties are responsible for this and their failures to address on a meaningful level the issues in front of us have sealed our fate. It doesn't matter if its global warming, the budget deficits, the problems affecting social security and medicare, the environment, they have passed to buck on every single one of them and the point of no return is rapidly approaching and there is no evidence that they are even going to attempt to do anything.

The dwindeling middle class and a civil war?

It will take a while for a concensus to form to see the mindset in a group of people decide to revolt.

THe times now are starting to give kindleing material to get the rumbleing to start. Immigration reform is going to be a match head that could set off a revolt in 20 to 30 years, when the total collapse of our social security system starts to fail. This right now is the only thing I see that will affect enough people at the same time to start a revolt.

The middle class will dwindle down slowly, so it will not be intense enough to spark a uprising.

If a civil war is to happen there will have to be multiple catylists similtaniously occuring so as to get a large enough discent to actually have a impact. Otherwise it would be crushed before it started.

The reality is that most of us go about our lives, to busy to concentrate on the reality that surounds us. Even those of us that think of these things only do it in a short amount of time, never really staying concentrated on it. We look at the news, visit some websites, write some replies and get back to life, our small, immediate life, where we focus keeping ahead in a rat race society.

The reality is that most of us go about our lives, to busy to concentrate on the reality that surounds us. Even those of us that think of these things only do it in a short amount of time, never really staying concentrated on it. We look at the news, visit some websites, write some replies and get back to life, our small, immediate life, where we focus keeping ahead in a rat race society.

Boy aint that the truth, but can we prepare?

I have gotten rid of all my credit cards, and car payment,

I watch my friends getting further in debt and wonder why "things" are so important to them.

Back in the day more then one generation households were common,

I have known for a long time one day we would have to learn how to live alternativly, utilty bills are killing us, I bought a generator,

And BTW, how can people fight back against the utility companies?

Also I go to garage sales, and the goodwill, and flea markets.

and it wouldn't hurt to know how to hunt and stock up on game.

Seriously, I see this coming.

the united states last chance is RON PAUL and i'm not even sure that he can write the ship or actually stay alive to make the changes. it's not like the globalist thugs will just watch there plans unravel thanks to some patriot

Canada Mexico and United States WILL become integrated, the plans have been made it is a matter of time. the only question i have is how many deaths will there be? hopefully very low however that will be the standard of living as well. there is a solution. MOVE

this issue is larger than the united states. i'm afraid this has been planned for century's.

If you are not already doing so, some of you folks need to check out things in the Survivor Threads. This thread and many over there go hand and hand.

There's a lot of folks thinking that getting ready is a good idea.

Can't we put off this civil war until I have secured my very own Nintendo Wii? Please wait until I have a Wii or I will be so very unhappy as a consumer of fine japanese products.

I'm afraid the rumble has already begun. It's now turned into a dull roar. People are getting fed up with the way they are being forced to live. Everyone, and I mean everyone that I speak to feels the same way. They all say that things need to change, and that they don't think things are going to get any better until something drastic happens.

What's that drastic thing going to be? Anyone's guess, as far as I'm concerned. Is it a bad thing that we're discussing things such as this? No. Actually, it's a healthy thing, since everyone needs to be involved in the way their country is run. Besides, they were warned that this would happen over 200 years ago by the Founders themselves. What's going on now is simply an awakening phase. We've been asleep for so long now that we had no idea how bad it was here, until recently.

The time is coming....

TheBorg

Here's a solution: 100% death tax, destroy the elitist families in a single generation.

I don't have time to read the entire post right now so I hope this hasn't been mentioned. Anyways, a very close relative of mine was high up at a public energy company in one of the midwestern states. The company had a Security Division of course, it was headed by a fmr/retired Office of Naval Intelligence Officer. This relative told me he along with the other top execs have been briefed on the fact that it is predicted their will be Militiias of people fighting over scarce water sometime after 2050. Elaborated these "militias" were merely farmers organizing he didn't elaborate on what the urban populations would be doing by then, maybe urban society collapsed who knows. just a thought.

At the current rate of decline, I have my doubts that the US will still be here in 2050 in the capacity that you speak of. I think that if something doesn't change within the next 5 years at least, that we're going to all have something to worry about. It's a scary scenario that I don't want to think about, yet am forced to every time that I buy gas.

For Freedom,
TheBorg

For every person who drops from self-sustaining taxpayer down beneficiary of the social programs, there is one less taxpayer, and a greater burden on the tax pool. It shouldn't take a master's degree to figure out where this is heading. As more of the burden is placed onto the "powerful wealthy", well the more they will scream about the overtaxation, and the social programs. Nothing will happen until they get their way in these two issues. If, or when they get their way and the burden is shifted off their backs, and there's only one other class to shift it to....the dependants.....who about at the same time will find themselves no longer able to depend on the gov't for sqaut!! Then the social unrest will hit big time!!

And the colleges and universities are already putting out at least twice as many graduates in the math, science, and information science areas that there are new jobs created in these areas, yet the companies are complaining about a lack of workers....ummm...ya.....a lack of workers able to live on the wages they want to pay! And, I guess that they've figured out that outsourcing kind of leads to massive trade deficits...so what's a country to do??? thus the neat new immigration policy, yes, we'll bring more workers to us, force those wages down!! I would be very hesistant in the present atmosphere to go too deeply in debt trying to get that peice of paper from a university....I think it's value will drop faster than any the houses are about to.

What if there is no way out now??

Originally posted by carnival_of_souls2047
Can't we put off this civil war until I have secured my very own Nintendo Wii? Please wait until I have a Wii or I will be so very unhappy as a consumer of fine japanese products.

Did you know that Nintendo was going to call it the wii until the last minute? Do you know what they were going to call it?

The Nintendo "Revolution"

No B.S!