The Declining Middle class and the Coming Civil War

Greetings my friends, very very good thread!!

It's not just the US! It's happening here in Europe as well. Look at a country like France where large scale riotting is going on, in the larger cities, right now as we speak. Even here in Holland people are increasingly getting frustrated about the fact that an ever smaller number of people is benefitting from the riches our economy is providing at the moment. We have had our share of corporate-corruption scandals wherein top managers get huge bonusses even when they have failed to deliver! I get the distinct impression that capatalism is at it's peak and the capitalists know that! I think it somehow all tie's in to some of the world changing events like the 1st gulfwar and the 9/11 attacks, the PNAC New Pearl Harbour!! Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists! What is the best way to keep people down? SPREAD FEAR!! It works every time! It's called a DICTATORSHIP!

I read an article about 4-5 weeks ago where government sources were saying that the next attack on America could involve a WMD on a major city by homegrown terrorists.

Translation: The NWO may do another False Flag Operation on us soon, and blame it on "Militias" instead of "Islamic fundamentalists", and then use that as an excuse to go after them hardcore. Waco and Ruby Ridge did a lot to put the fear of government into people. This of course is all speculative.

"Socialism" seemed to come up earlier, i'm not into that, but this Corporatocracy has to go. Capitalism is cool, but capitalism run amok sux! Too much of anything is bad for you after all. I want to get Ron Paul elected, because he wants to restore our Constitutional Republic. On YouTube, often the subject of going to a full Democracy seems to come up. The founding fathers saw inherent problems with this as 49% of the people would have no say. That's why both houses of congress have to reach a compromise bill to send to the Presidents desk.

No one should want to have a civil or revolutionary war to fix all the problems that have been pointed out, but, we can all pragmatically agree that it may come to that. Some previous posters think its 1-4 decades away. For it to be successful it should come sooner rather than later, as another poster mentioned. There is an unmistakable truth though. Just like PNAC said in "Rebuilding America's Defenses", it will require a "Catalyzing Pearl Harbor like event", in this case for us, the assassination of Ron Paul. If that happens, that's it! In the words of Buggs Bunny "You do realize of course, this means WAR!"

Let's say it comes to that. Are all of a sudden are the anti-gun lib's going to figure out why exactly we have a 2nd Amendment? Not to fall into the Hegelian Dialectic, but I can't help but think that we can count them out as nothing more than protesters holding up signs instead of shooting. They can't even justify killing an animal for food, and they horribly bash hunters

Are there enough Americans with the testicular and ovarian fortitude needed to do whats necessary if it comes down to it? There are 10 million gun owners in America. Are they are going to go into survivalist mode and head to the hills with their families or go on the offensive in the cities? If generalizations are true then the former is more likely than the latter. This would accomplish the regionalization alluded to earlier, and that only provides short term security and prolongs the inevitable, as it allows the Federal gov't to finnish their conquest of the major cities, and then once ready, move into the outlying rural areas, spreading their control further and further every day, aided by satellites and technology.

We the People are too disorganized, lazy, and dependent upon creature comforts and technology. I don't see any General George Washington type figure out their recruiting for the "New Continental Army", for obvious reasons. If it starts, it will be in Texas. They are up in arms over the Trans-Texas Corridor / NAFTA Super Highway crap that's resulting in eminent domain / land confiscations, but that may just push them to Succeed from the Union.

We need Ron Paul to win, and to stay alive! I'd take a bullet for him to save America if that's what it took. The bankers had Lincoln, Kennedy, and Reagan shot. Notice how after Reagan was shot, all of his talk about our "unfair tax system" came to an abrupt halt?

The chances of some revolution or civil war being successful look bleak. I am not promoting it, so to the mods I hope I didn't break any board rules. It would be such a disaster that pussified metro America would be begging for UN help, and then we'd be really screwed, cuase while we are fighting against a U.S.-centric NWO of PNAC and Bushes, we'd have many of our own people willing to accept the U.N.-centric NWO of the Clinton's. :/

Good topic, but we should adhere to the rules too.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Though socialism has an inherant control issue (regulation of the economy, media, and government) that control issue can be used for the people by the people (democratic socialism anyone?) Socialisms dedication is to the welfare of the people and profits be damned, Capitalisms dedication is to the accumulation of profits and the people be damned. Id rather throw my chips in with a government that aims to make life better, than one that aims to make itself better.

And it can be argued that that is sort of the system that China is heading towards. While we are quick to label China as "communist," a cursory glance of China shows that they are not the typical communist/socialist state. They actually seem to be trying to mix communism with a form of democracy and it almost seems to be working for them.

Next we have the problem of 4th parties trying to get in, China, Europe, etc. The world will be looking at us and be forwarned that they could try and slash us while we are weak and take over during the chaos! So you must be able to maintain a two front war at all times. Hard? Oh yeah. Impossible? No, so long as you stay on your toes and know what your up against. Know Thyself and thy enemy. Read up on Sun Tzu.

Vekar, very, true. I have said that if this scenario comes to fruition, it's not going to be a good situation for America. While we are fighting one another, outsiders will be coming in, Islamic terrorists mostly, to add their bit into the damage. They will view it as a perfect opportunity to strike. Unfortunately, I think that sooner or later, it is an inevitability if we as a nation continue along the path we have been on for the last 20 years.

Originally posted by grover

Both parties are responsible for this and their failures to address on a meaningful level the issues in front of us have sealed our fate.

As are the people who continue to vote for only Republican and Democrat candidates. If you want change, change your voting habits. It's really that simple. Unless an independent wins an election some time soon, nothing will change.

Originally posted by Kelldor

Waco and Ruby Ridge did a lot to put the fear of government into people. This of course is all speculative.

Yeah, Waco really opened my eyes. I was fifteen years old when that happened and I came to the conclusion then in there that the federal government and the federal agencies that do the federal government's whims are rotten.

I believe we have been gradually desensitized by the corporatocracy and government. Their game in the late 1990's was how much can we take away from the workers without starting WW3. It was actually quite a lot, wages were reduced, benefits were dropped and Americans spend more time working than our European counterparts. Likewise we now accept a government that tortures, lies, surveilles our own people, outs our own agents, refuses to acknowledge complete failure during 9/11 and has never felt the need to explain anything to the American public at all, in fact they have keep virtually everthing they have done a secret. Just what will it take to forment this 'revolution'? Or are we too comfortable and invested in keeping whatever it is the power that be will allow us to keep?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
And it can be argued that that is sort of the system that China is heading towards. While we are quick to label China as "communist," a cursory glance of China shows that they are not the typical communist/socialist state. They actually seem to be trying to mix communism with a form of democracy and it almost seems to be working for them.

We must be looking at a different china. Maybe your confusing Democratic reforms with free market reforms? Because belive me, the two do not go hand in hand. IMO, China has very little deomcracy, both political and economical, but it certainly is sliding down the slippery slope of free market capitalism. Theres already a depressed reserve army of labour, little occupational saftey laws, little to no child labour laws, little to no environmental protection laws. No, i dont see china becomming a democratic socialist country, but i sure do see it becomming a free market paradise much like Nicaragua, Chile, Mozambique, Angola, Ziaere, or Grenada.

I work for a living I usually pull in about 100 hours every 2 weeks if I’m lucky. The thing is with all those hours and all the money coming in, I’m still living paycheck to paycheck. I refuse to use government systems and aid because I believe it shouldn’t be used unless for really dire situations. My kids never go hungry my wife never goes without. We don’t have the best things in life but we make do with what we have.

What irks me and upsets me is that I see a family going into the housing and aid offices in my town while driving around in their new Ford Expedition, or when I help one of my neighbors get her food wages because she doesn’t have a car to go in and you see a mom getting out of her 4-Runner or Explorer that’s new. Why are these people allowed to do this? If you can afford a car that is that high value and gas consuming why cant you afford food or housing? Why does my paycheck have to suffer because you want a better car?

I believe we are in a situation that the richer are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer. This situation will never change. What would need to occur is a fundamental conversion to a world or state that works on equality than greed. As long as everyone wants big business and money nothing will change. Yes I do sit there sometimes and wish I could afford that new truck my wife wants, or buy the TV and computer I want. Sometimes I wish that I could buy my kid all the things he wants but I believe in this way he will appreciate more what he has than giving him all he wants and not having a value of it.

I apologize for this rant but thanks for listening and a great thread by the way!!


[edit on 31-5-2007 by ghostryder21]

Terrorists are peanuts compared to what we could face with 4th parties DOMESTICALLY! Remember I named off the groups inside the USA that would vie for a piece of the pie, they are a far greater danger. If the war manages to touch the far southern tip of Mexico we could employ the ZAPATISTAS to help hold the far Southern Mexican boarder against those who would try and sneak in. At the same time we could GROUND all air travel into or out of the USA to make sure no one gets in that way. As for ships: a ship comes in, 100 people go onboard and do a complete raid long before it docks and each person is counted as they come off of the boat, anyone who was not counted orginally: bang. Sorry folks, were at war, declare yourselves beforehand not after the bullets are let fly.

A lot of the reason people around the world hate the US government (not necesarilly us Americans) is because of foreign policy, the fact that we would be fighting to get rid of the same ones who cause these troubles would hurt anyone who wanted to harm Americans in general. We would be proving to the world we are trying to do something about it, we would then only have to deal with the real nutjobs.

Now let me touch on rebuilding quickly, should the revolutionaries who support the constitution WIN, then we can once again pull on an old favorite of America when it comes to rebuilding: industry. Shoot, we put the USSR out of business who had more factories than us, we are better at production, always have been. If we employ even half the technology that has been developed over the past decade we would be able to rebuild the whole of North American overnight so to speak. Instead of making mines, lets go raid the garbage dumps and junk yards for our metals, they are already refined. Also it would open up more technology because of the need for large scale recycling plants all across the Americas.

All of North America is in the same boat essentially, and it is sinking. So long as we keep killing each other, it will sink faster, if we realize we have a common enemy we can start bailing water and hopefully reach the shore before we sink. Is there a point of no return? Always. But when you hit the bottom, the only way left to go is up.

I guess you could say that another revolution or civil war might just bring forth technologies that have never been seen before. Technologies corporations have supressed because they are far superior to their own current technologies. Electrical vehicles have already been out since the early 1990's, 100 miles on one charge. Change the old batteries to a modern one and you might just hit 200 miles per charge. Guess what? No emissions. If the revolutionaries push the supressed technologies heavily to advance themselves they could quickly overrun enemy positions because of the amount of power it would give them in the long run. So in the long run we could put the world to shame technilogically if we push all that has been supressed and go gung ho with it. That is our advantage over them, these technologies are quality not quantity based. The military wants an electric tank, why? Its dead silent! Other than the tracks and the blast of the cannon you will NOT be hearing it untill it is too darn late. But guess what, they want it to run on DIESAL #1 and always and only have electric for the last 2 minutes of approach into a place, blast something, switch back to diesal since the suprise is gone and keep fighting. They are going to keep pushing the same old junk systems.

The world will truely be an interesting place when they find out the USA, Canada and Mexicans have banded together in outright total annihilation based revolution against the corporate elite and their allies.

Here is something critical though: revolution breaks out, no communication with the outside world permitted, why? Every other nation on the world who wants a piece of the Americas is going to be listening in for who is weaker and can be knocked off. Keep them in suspence and even with their satellites they will be unable to tell who is truely weaker untill it is too late.

Oh the idiocy of the rich... Without the middle class most of the rich will fail too.. The only ones who won't are the top 1/2 of 1% and the rest will be poor as well.. You see every time we get into this situation, the world economy fails... Who is going to buy all the junk the rich sell to the middle class??? Ford Motor Company is already heading down, will be history in the next two to three years, GM will go down with them, they are doing okay now but their customer base is erroding faster than they can make up for it as the middle class people who buy their crappy cars are no longer able to afford them... As I say, the rich will go down with us, and the funny part is that the poor will eat the rich, they are not afraid to get physical when the time requires it and the rich are afraid to be physical, they hide behind their lawyers and their money.... Soon there will come a time when the poor will rise up and take down even the richest man in the world... That time is soon....

In order to keep control a level of chaos is needed in their case, money is peanuts compared to the fact if they win this battle they will have absolute, unquestioning control over the whole of North Ameria. Not to mention they are working as we speak on gaining total control of China through economic control systems. They are not falling per say, mearly dropping their pieces into place for the final showdown. The final battle being your choice when it comes to joining in or standing asside. They know the risks, but not many of the people do, this is their bonus, the unintended concequences. They still have the element of suprise.

I don't think the majority of Americans realize how easy they have it. Sure you work hard for your money, who doesn't?...but you have a home, transportation, accomodations, and government services available should you become unemployed. Our economy isn't in crisis, it is simply undergoing changes and during periods of change it is natural to see fluctuations in rates. Just because you can't pinpoint the cause of every fluctuation does not mean that you should start panicing and declaring a civil war on your neighbors. That's a bit childish if you ask me. Remember kids: Patience is a virtue.

Boy, we seem to be shifting all the blame onto our fine government.....

not that they don't deserve their share, but, ummm...

I really think that "we the people" have played a role in this.

Ya, make a fortune through real estate!!! And, when the price for the real estate exceeds the ability of many people to pay, well, just convince them that they can afford it!! the people are gullible, they'll buy it!

Same could be said of most of the goods we are buying, people really can't afford them, but well, they have made it appear that they are affordable, even the $100 sneakers made by slave laborers in china or whereever....
just get another piece of plastic is all.

all this is serving to just drive up the cost of living more, which then proceeds to put a heavier demand on the businesses to provide keep up with the cost of living, and when they fail, well, it puts a bigger demand on the social programs, the taxpayer, which increases the cost of living more.

two things are at play...

one is greed, it was greed that caused the people involved with the real estate deals to convince people to buy what they couldn't afford, it's greed that convinces the ceo's of big corporations to pocket a few more million while their employees have their earnings and benefits slashed again.

and the other is our willingness to buy those things that we can't afford now....chosing instead to either reach for the plastic, or beg the gov't for help...(not trying to saying anything negative about the many who have to do this)....but well, if I live according to what my boss pays, and f ind I can't have a roof over my head, food in my stomach, gas in my car, well, that's gonna hurt, not only me, but by boss, hey he might decide I need more money, and those that are selling their wares, hey they might decide that their price is too high!!

I had an interesting experience at work today, a girl came up to my supervisor to tell her she had yet, another appointment that she had to take off work for... She is pregnant, unmarried, but pregnant again...and well, she's had to take off work for doctors, to apply for medicaid, and this one was for hud....lol...ya.....

well, the supervisor had a fit, told her that they would have to let her go if she made many more appointments.....

I think I made my tongue bleed forcing myself to keep quiet through this....

The only way I can afford to live is because I have a husband....they don't pay me enough to keep myself alive, and fed and sheltered... they don't her either, let alone her kids...
so, well, I wanted so bad to tell my supervisior, hey, it's the price you pay when you don't pay enough to people to live on, they have to find time to go begging, kissing arse, somewhere else...live with it, and I'll live with the fact that some of my tax money is paying for her to have another baby that she can't afford...

it's not all the government's fault, and well, much of what can be attributed to them wouldn't be if they hadn't played on the wants and desires of select groups in the country...

we the people need to accept the idea that what is good for us individually just might be detrimental to the country as a whole.

oh, and by the way....

remember the lords are used to living a pampered life...they have others do the stuff they should be doing, but don't want to...so, well, what happens when they have no one to do this for them.....um...they can't do it themselves, they've forgotting how, or are too out of shape to be able to....ya, the lower class will eat them up, they haven't forgotten how to struggle through life.

[edit on 31-5-2007 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by dawnstar

I really think that "we the people" have played a role in this.

Yeah, we do. We have continued to idly stand by while the federal government does as it damn well pleases. That is how people have contributed to the mess. You're right.

There is a whole other aspect to this problem. What does it say about the future of those who are single? Well, folks, if you are single and plan on being that way for a while, then you might as well plan on living with relatives for a while as well.

Middle class barely treads water
By Christine Dugas, USA TODAY
Millions of middle-class families can no longer afford to live on two incomes.

A generation ago, a typical American middle-class family lived on the income of a single breadwinner. In recent years it has taken two working spouses to live the modern middle-class dream. Now, it seems even that is not enough to survive the skyrocketing cost of housing, health care and college while saving for retirement and shouldering growing debt loads.

Bill and Terry Will of Chesapeake, Va., together earn about $70,000 a year, and yet it's a struggle to provide for their family and pay off their credit card debt. Terry, 44, is a nurse and Bill, 50, manages a warehouse that ships food and supplies to other countries.

The deeper it goes

The deep we delve into this problem, the more the problem evolves into other problems.

Now, I have said for quite some time that many are leaving above and beyond their financial means. As a result of this, we have incurred the "nuclear family." Families aren't really families anymore. Mom and dad both are working all of the time and the kids are essentially left to raise themselves. Now, while I don't want to derail this thread, I do think it imperative that one looks at this problem as it is, multifaceted.

While this is just from an opinion page, what this lady says in her answer is probably true.

Thanks for writing. To all those who may be delaying marriage so they can achieve financial stability, I would remind them that two can live more economically than one. A newly married couple paying for one apartment, can make their money go further than two singles, both working, renting two. There's a pragmatic reason to marry.

Also, it's been shown that married men earn more, on average, than single men do. I know from personal experience that our financial picture improved after we got married, probably due in part to the fact that as we've gotten older and more experienced, we're able to earn more. And those higher earnings started around the time we started having children.

The Economics of being single

Now, considering that many are waiting longer to get married, some people, if they ever marry, don't marry until they are in their mid- thirties or early 40s.

Now, some may ask, "what does this have to do with the topic?" Well, since I am single myself and am not apt to marry any time soon, given that I am not even in any dialog with a female right now, it is very important to me.I am sure that it is an important issue to others here as well.



[edit on 31-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Don't confuse democracy with capitalism. China is still very much a Maoist communist country,what they have adopted to survive and compete and defeat the western countries is capitalism.They are allowing private enterprise but believe me they are only allowing certain controlled freedoms.
Once they have destroyed all the democratic/capitalist countries be assured reforms will take place.This is what we get by allowing for the last forty years their children to come here, receive and education, and then take that knowledge back and use it against us.

Originally posted by calcoastseeker
Don't confuse democracy with capitalism. China is still very much a Maoist communist country,what they have adopted to survive and compete and defeat the western countries is capitalism.They are allowing private enterprise but believe me they are only allowing certain controlled freedoms.
Once they have destroyed all the democratic/capitalist countries be assured reforms will take place.This is what we get by allowing for the last forty years their children to come here, receive and education, and then take that knowledge back and use it against us.

I agree with a lot of what you have said, but seeing as Foreign investment capital has no allegience to any one country, id say whats going to happen is a switch. China will become the next intervention power at the behest of foreign investment capital, much as the US is currently.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
And it can be argued that that is sort of the system that China is heading towards. While we are quick to label China as "communist," a cursory glance of China shows that they are not the typical communist/socialist state. They actually seem to be trying to mix communism with a form of democracy and it almost seems to be working for them.

We must be looking at a different china. Maybe your confusing Democratic reforms with free market reforms? Because belive me, the two do not go hand in hand. IMO, China has very little deomcracy, both political and economical, but it certainly is sliding down the slippery slope of free market capitalism. Theres already a depressed reserve army of labour, little occupational saftey laws, little to no child labour laws, little to no environmental protection laws. No, i dont see china becomming a democratic socialist country, but i sure do see it becomming a free market paradise much like Nicaragua, Chile, Mozambique, Angola, Ziaere, or Grenada.

Yes, and what is not discussed in the media is that the majority of the factories in China are fronts for the Peoples Liberation Army.They are using slave labor to cheaply make the products.These products are exported to be sold in the western world mostly at Walmart. ALL profit that these factories make is used in the manufacture and development of their,planes,ships,missiles,guns,etc. Which they will eventually use on us.
You're paying for your children's destruction. Free market capitalism what a great western concept.

Originally posted by calcoastseeker

Yes, and what is not discussed in the media is that the majority of the factories in China are fronts for the Peoples Liberation Army.They are using slave labor to cheaply make the products.These products are exported to be sold in the western world mostly at Walmart. ALL profit that these factories make is used in the manufacture and development of their,planes,ships,missiles,guns,etc. Which they will eventually use on us.
You're paying for your children's destruction. Free market capitalism what a great western concept.

Thats acutally quite interesting and something i didnt know, do you have a source for this? Id really be interested in reading it.