Existance of Ufo's/E.T.'s Have Been Proven!!!

I have posted before, and so it seems, once more... Why is it so important to the believers that skeptics become converted or must be condemned in print as the lowest of the low?

Evidence is an individual thing. Proof is yet another thing. There is much evidence of ... Wait for it ... Something unusual. That is not ever in doubt among most of us skeptics. But to put my foot out and say, there is something unusual occurring, and in my paradigm, the only thing it could be is aliens, and therefore it is aliens, doesn't make much sense. At least not in the greater scheme of things.

Frankly, as an "Ace" Skeptic, and one of the charter members of the now defunct, Fair Skeptics (sadly done in by prima donna attitudes among skeptics), I'd love nothing more than to be able to pin a definite causative agent with the UFOs. It (the whole UFO phenomena) could be aliens from Munimula, it could be beings of light from Heaven, it could be evil demons from Hell, it could be beings from a different time period, it could be beings from a whole different universe or spatial reality, it could be an advance race of beings who have cohabitated on this planet since day one, it could be ... it could be ... it could be detritus from our own space programs ... Oooor it might even be an amalgam of any or all of the above.

The truly interesting thing about the UFO issue, in my mind, is that since 1947 when it all "truly" began in earnest (That's 60 years ago), we are no closer to having objective evidence of anything regarding UFOs, much less proof (And there is a big difference).

Evidence is the truly subjective part of the various aspects of UFOs. What, as evidence, that serves to convince someone of the veracity of UFOs, is only evidence that something is happening. I think most skeptics accept that something is happening, yet through the years there have been so many hoaxes, and misidentifications (purposeful or otherwise) that we are no close to having that proof, and so, we remain skeptical of the "final proof".

I, along with a number of others have been lambasted for not jumping on the various issues that we may see as hoaxes or incompletely defined and proven episodes. Still, when enough evidence has amassed itself to become incontrovertible proof, I also, may jump on the band wagon.

Until such a time, I will simply look on as "hard core" believers continue to wonder why we Fair Skeptics are so "stupid" that we cannot, in any way, shape, or form, see something that constitutes "Proof Positive".

This caught my attention when I did a search. I'm not a ufo believer nor a skeptic.

But I heard about all kinds of hoaxes and such from buttons to hubcaps.etc.

This is neither.

www.ufoevidence.org...

www.ufoevidence.org...

www.ufoevidence.org...

I would have to say these three are perhaps the most detailed of the photo's I've seen so far of ufo's.

I now feel...We are not alone. I see different kinds of UFO'S and I wonder if they were deloveped in secret by the Air Force. Or something totally different.



[edit on 5/28/2007 by Leyla]

Thankyou leyla for your solid contribution to our thread. I saved that sight to my fav's.
You know the only thing for me is that I have had many close up sightings both day and night, and yet I get SOOO frustrated looking at pictures of Ufos! Strange huh? I guess I am a skeptic at heart and if it were not for my personal experience I would be a total Skeptic... I am not but do you know what I mean?
I have to say that the first couple of pictures peaked my interest as the lights were not uniform as in most I have placed in the 'hoax' pile. There are a couple of types that I have seen that have lights that do not have symmetry that makes sense to me.
And another important thing is that it is as if the physics they are controlled by do not apply in this dimension. For instance they can bend and change shape, and do not seem to be completely visible.
One more important thing I have noticed again about the lights on off world craft is that they seem to have natural light sources and not man made.

Originally posted by sigung86
I have posted before, and so it seems, once more... Why is it so important to the believers that skeptics become converted or must be condemned in print as the lowest of the low?

Evidence is an individual thing. Proof is yet another thing. There is much evidence of ... Wait for it ... Something unusual. That is not ever in doubt among most of us skeptics. But to put my foot out and say, there is something unusual occurring, and in my paradigm, the only thing it could be is aliens, and therefore it is aliens, doesn't make much sense. At least not in the greater scheme of things.

An excellent post and a better expression of my earlier point. I don't know how many times I've been told that when disclosure happens, I and all the other skeptics will eat our words, be humiliated, run for the hills, et cetera...

Uh, well.. no, I won't. If any form of disclosure happens, I will be as blown away, amazed, and excited as the "believers." I do believe something is happening, and I do want proof. Until we get it though, I think it's pointless and dangerous to treat all testimony and evidence as "real until proven false." It discredits all of us.

I think there is a ton of compelling testimony out there. Personally, I believe a fair amount of it, especially the military/NASA stuff. But I can't prove anything about aliens, and so far, neither can any of the people giving the testimony.

So while I love to speculate as much as anyone else, I'm not going to follow a trail of fantasy logic and sit around and pretend we know all kinds of things about Zeta Reticulans, as if that would make me open-minded.

There is no proof solid proof about the existance of E.T.s, etc, etc, blahbalbhalblah. You already have heard this before and it's pretty much as close as you can get to the truth. But theres much to deny.

UFOs do exist. Yes. They are objects with are unindentified. Simple as that. But theres no proof that they are of alien origin.

There is no proof solid proof about the existance of E.T.s, etc, etc, blahbalbhalblah. You already have heard this before and it's pretty much as close as you can get to the truth. But theres much to deny.

UFOs do exist. Yes. They are objects with are unindentified. Simple as that. But theres no proof that they are of alien origin.

Cidcaldensfey, I have to disagree with you on your first point. The reason for creating this thread and for it to stand alone is because 'I' do believe that there is all the proof needed for people to make up their own minds with the body of evidence that is out there.
I have said before and will say it again and again, any time you make a decision to be for some thing or to refute it, you must first take a long unbiased look at 'all' of the evidence presented.
This means a serious weeding out process of what you find subjective and classifying that which is considered to be in the grey area, and then to finally side with the evidence you find conclusive and that fits for you.
When people began to refute that the earth is flat, they had nothing more than a hunch to go by.
Everyday science is discovering more unbelievable truths about our planet, our solar system and of other galaxies. When the Hubble brings in new and enlightening evidence that I do not understand, I simply look at the pictures and sit in awe.
I do not need to know the hows or whys, I can simply enjoy from my little corner of the world the technology that has developed in my life time that allows me to see into what was once unheard of.
I do not see the photos as hoaxes to be shredded, they very well could be you know?

Why is it so important to the believers that skeptics become converted or must be condemned in print as the lowest of the low?

Sigung, your choice of words here is right on. I often get the sense that the pro-UFO movement is a kind of faith seeking to convert those who still doubt. The whole movement seems to be permeated by a kind of religious mist, which makes rational discourse difficult at times.

Then again, if I knew without the shadow of a doubt that aliens were coming to Earth, I would probably act the same way. Imagine knowing something that huge and not being able to prove it...

That said, I don't know that aliens are coming to Earth. Just like you wrote, and like I implied in a previous post in this thread, these entities -- if entities they are -- could be terrestrial, transdimensional, psychological, etc. I simply don't know, and my belief that they are aliens is based on my personal assessment of the evidence. It is a provisional hypothesis, and nothing more.

Antar, if you are telling the truth when you say that you know -- and I emphasize *know*, rather than *believe* -- that is amazing. However, it is pointless to try and convert those who haven't had the opportunity you've had of experiencing the phenomenon first hand. Bottom line: I believe you, but I don't know that you are telling the truth. That's as far as my skepticism will allow me to go.

As far as aliens go, I am 90% sure that they are coming and 10% totally unconvinced.

To answer your last question, Antar, I believe there is a strong possibility that extraterrestrial life of one kind or another will be identified and confirmed within the next decade. It may be that aliens reveal themselves, but I don't know. They have remained pretty elusive for centuries; there is nothing to stop them from hiding indefinitely.

Most likely, the first real disclosure will be of some kind of extraterrestrial bacteria. That sounds lame, but it will prove once and for all that there is enough life in the universe for some of it to spill onto our planet.

Since I can't predict the future, I don't know when or how this will happen. The comment that you were referring to concerned people who categorically deny or who ridicule the possibility of extraterrestrial civilizations.

Hi Cambrian, You sound well grounded in your ideas. I wish that I could say with certainty it would happen that way and soon. But alas you are probably correct in stating it could go on indefinitely if they choose. I tend to believe it is more the choice of the E.T.'s to remain in the shadows than of some deep dark Gov. conspiracy to keep it from us. That is not to say that they don't keep secrets from us because they have been proven to keep many secrets.

I always love to tell the truth, it is always so much more fantastic than a lie!
I am sorry if I implied that I 'know' anything more than anyone else, perhaps we all know more on a deeper level. I am here to live and grow just the same as everyone else.

Originally posted by skip_brilliantine
I'm not going to follow a trail of fantasy logic and sit around and pretend we know all kinds of things about Zeta Reticulans, as if that would make me open-minded.

Well said! I'm reminded of the old saying, "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out." I have often wondered why credulity is so often confused with open-mindedness. People who believe in lots of things and are never very critical of anything they hear are held up as shining examples of open-mindedness and virtue.

My sig-line says it all...

(Quote by Sigung86)I have posted before, and so it seems, once more... Why is it so important to the believers that skeptics become converted or must be condemned in print as the lowest of the low?

Sigung86, you must understand that is not at all where I am coming from, and if you will read some of the eairler posts here you will discover that as a fact.
I cannot recall anyone that has added to this post implying in any way what you have suggested above.

You are bright and intelligent and have a clear and open minded impression of what you have seen read and heard on the subject. That does not make you the lowest of lows to me or any of the posters that have come through here.

Once again I will say that you are the exact type of person that I have written this post for. I am not searching for atomotons to agree with me in an airy fairy fashion. I am seeking people of like mind (good luck on my part) That have come to the conclusion of choice based on the body of evidence we have presently available.
I am not here to convert anyone or thing. I too would be a devout skeptic had my personal experiences not lead me in another direction.
I have alot of doubt when I see most of the ufo video and pictures, and honestly I go in without expectation and have yet to see anything that I would believe 100%. That is because I did not take the pic or video my self.

Originally posted by antar
Once again I will say that you are the exact type of person that I have written this post for. I am not searching for atomotons to agree with me in an airy fairy fashion. I am seeking people of like mind (good luck on my part) That have come to the conclusion of choice based on the body of evidence we have presently available.

But, Antar, you are kind of contradicting yourself. The title of this thread claims that the existence of UFOs and ETs has been proven, and your first post begins: "There is no more proof needed"... and then you say:

Originally posted by antar
The reason for creating this thread and for it to stand alone is because 'I' do believe that there is all the proof needed for people to make up their own minds with the body of evidence that is out there.

...and there's the problem, because then you say:

Originally posted by antar
I have alot of doubt when I see most of the ufo video and pictures, and honestly I go in without expectation and have yet to see anything that I would believe 100%.

You've shown that you are a civil poster, skeptic or not, but I think you're throwing the word "proof" around when what you're really talking about is levels of belief. If you believe in the body of evidence enough that no more proof is required for you, that doesn't mean that anything has been proven.

Saying that we'll never have the proof we're looking for doesn't mean that we should lower our standards for what constitutes proof in our reality. I know it does for some.

Ok skip_ brilliantine, You have read a few posts here. Now lets discuss your take on it.
Yes 'I' have come to the conclusion on a personal level that no more proof is needed to prove the existence of Ufo/ET's.

Once again I will apologize for your misinterpretation of the title.

If all of the people fighting diligently for the ultimate disclosure was a sham or a farce then it would have fallen long ago by the wayside.

I have to say other than my personal accounts, some of the most sincere arguments come from ordinary people without a pedigree.

Unfortunately that is always dismissed and forgotten so what we are left with are the professionals and their expertise and scores of data.

John Mack is a great example; You can find an interview here that is very grounded and balanced. www.ufoevidence.org...

Here are some interesting interviews by John mack;
www.ufoevidence.org...

Now mind you I am not necessarily bringing the subject of Abduction to this particular thread (but I most likely will in a subsequent thread))however I just want you to take a look at one very credible source that although analytical, has the ability to forge ahead and remain open to any and all directions that this fascinating topic has to offer.
Unfortunately John Mack was most probably murdered for his interest.

Originally posted by antar
John Mack is a great example; You can find an interview here that is very grounded and balanced. www.ufoevidence.org...

Here are some interesting interviews by John mack;
www.ufoevidence.org...

Those two links are the same, was that a typo?

Originally posted by antar
I just want you to take a look at one very credible source that although analytical, has the ability to forge ahead and remain open to any and all directions that this fascinating topic has to offer.
Unfortunately John Mack was most probably murdered for his interest.

Antar, John Mack was hit by a drunk driver in a Peugeot, who stayed on the scene after the accident. He was 74 years old and was in the middle of speaking at a symposium on... Lawrence of Arabia. Otherwise, as you pointed out, he was a moderate who kept an open mind and wrote primarily about the spiritual and psychological aspects of the abduction phenomenon.

What possible reason could you have for believing that he was "most probably murdered for his interest"? What's worse, why would you say a thing like that without any references or corroboration whatsoever? Where did you hear it in the first place, and why did you assume it was true?

It took me seconds to find out the circumstances of his death, from his institute's own website.

Statement regarding the passing of Dr. John Mack

This is the kind of thing that angers me, because there are a lot of posters (just like yourself) who will repeat this bit of hearsay forever, just because you have no filter for crap.

And the mysterious deaths of some of our leading scientists, can be explained away as well. Nice neat and tidy. No questions, no conspiracy, just an uncomplicated coincidence.


www.stevequayle.com...


I am exhausted from being shredded for this Thread. But you know at the end of the day I have not sought to hurt or put anyone down for their dreams ideas and goals.
I am a decent person that wants the best in everything. I am perfectly within my rights to think and feel the way I do about the subject of Ufology and Exopolitics. For me no more proof is needed. I cannot be convinced to not believe what I do.

I love this subject and enjoy so much discussing it with people that share my interests. Yes I probably have a lot more faith in the subject because of personal experience, but then there are so many more like myself that have that in common.
I did not create this reality from some delusional fantasy.
I have never been looking when I have found.
And really for many who havecome to the same conclusions, no more proof is needed. That does not mean I will not continue to watch this superior story unfold.

And Yes Kid B. it was a typo, but I see you found a good link.

Does anyone have proof (concrete irrefutable) that UFO/Aliens do not exist?
If you do please post here so that we can close this thread.
Until then I stand by my original theory, that all the credible proof we have to date should warrant some specific answers from our top world leaders.
And I challenge ANY Government officials that may be reading these posts to join the forum and to secretly or openly disclose to us any information to the contrary...
Thankyou in advance Antar

I have a recording that has changed my mind of ETs. It was a recording of a UFO convention where a researcher, and ex Navy Seal, told his experiences and truths about ETs. I think his name was Cooper, and he talked about working on a project called Grudge 13. If anyone has info on this will you please let me know?