Tomorrow the FBI will be able to invade everyone's internet.

Saying "If you're not doing anything wrong..." is Tripe.

The old chestnut about "if you're not doing anything wrong, there's nothing to fear" is completely, utterly ignorant tripe. It's escapism and fantasy of the highest degree. Such a claim is an invitation to your government to monitor every single communication, every monetary transaction, every movement you make, and to allow your entire life to be on display to unseen eyes, 24/7/365.

Most every single one of you break laws on a regular basis. I doubt you'll admit it publicly (especially now that your internet usage is being monitored), but even if you're convinced you aren't breaking a single law, chances are extremely high you are. There are obscure laws still on the books that are never, or rarely enforced, in every single state. No one prosecutes them because they are hard to catch, and when they are caught, it is seen as a waste of time.

Maybe you occasionally partake of an illegal substance in the privacy of you or your friend's home. Perhaps you have a habit of doing "California rolls" through backroads stop-signs (where you slow down instead of stopping). Maybe you have a habit of letting your vehicle inspection or registration or driver's license lapse for a few weeks or months (or years) before renewing. Maybe you've let your lawn grow past the 5-inch limit in your city code. Perhaps you and your partner enjoy certain bedroom activities that technically illegal in your state (in some states, any position beside missionary between man and wife, is illegal). You might have even held a garage sale without buying a permit, or taken 3 aspirin when the bottle said 2.

Laws constantly change, far faster than you could possibly read or keep up with them. The more privacy you sign over to passive and active surveillance, the more you assure your eventual prosecution for petty crimes on a daily basis, until your life outside of sleep and work becomes a constant struggle to meet and comply with any and all laws, no matter how obscure or ridiculous. You invite draconic regulation of anything, and everything, until you live in constant fear of breaking a law. This is to say nothing of the fact that everything, including what you do in the bathroom and shower, will be watched by someone.

Suing the police for harassment will no longer be an option because they will have proof of each infraction thanks to the monitoring you have allowed. And thanks to the prevailing ignorance of "if you're not doing anything wrong," you won't find a single sympathetic ear to help you.

And when you break a law, and you will, no matter how inadvertantly, you will find yourself a priority surveillance target. At that point, simply expressing exasperation or disgust with the government's constant ream of violation fines might get you declared an "enemy combatant", and land you indefinitely in one of those offshore detention facilities. You know...those torture facilities you allowed to remain open because you weren't doing anything wrong?

"Oh, but that will never happen. We'll not stand for it."

Really? At what point? When will you finally say "that's enough?" and at that point, how effective will it be?

You will say "that's enough" when it begins to infringe upon your personal life. Until then, it's not really your problem is it? Except the people who could have helped defend you are themselves either silenced or converted by their own monitoring, and instead smile wanly and tell you that if you're not doing anything wrong, there's nothing to worry about.

This is why intelligent people whom enjoy their freedom fight each "standard surveillance" practice, every step of the way, and why we are so thoroughly disgusted by people who live under the fantasy that only wrongdoers suffer under a police state.

[edit on 5/15/2007 by thelibra]

This all goes back the the same document from the PNAC "rebuilding America's Defenses".

There is a whole section about "taking control of cyberspace..."

Read up.

No one asked himself if users from the other side of the wire will be able to defend themselves. I could easily think about that security measure as some software package which is hackable...
Also, as every protocol and package has it's rules binded by unique program language with which it's made, it's easy to conclude that there will be cracked version or hack of some kind for that...

Certainly, not on large scale but also very much possible.
Gladly, I'd be the first one to use it, whether or not I'm a criminal.

I think as many others that that measure will result in totall and complete failure. Internet is like Napster from it's beginings... It evolved in Kazaa... and after there are meny Limewires and alikes...
Since all them are slow it resulted in DCC net services and finally in unstopable HTTp based BitTorrent service which is global in scale...
Scale is going chronologically or is evolving which is the same as Ppl will adapt their IP's with some countermeasure...

One big thing is also. Such a large network like Internet (like P2P services was) could never accept a new rule, faster then mass of users would change it... It's was and continues to stay main rule for P2P networks which Internet humbly is, not more nor less...

Originally posted by Triad979
No one asked himself if users from the other side of the wire will be able to defend themselves. I could easily think about that security measure as some software package which is hackable...
Also, as every protocol and package has it's rules binded by unique program language with which it's made, it's easy to conclude that there will be cracked version or hack of some kind for that...

The security measures are just sniffers. They will simply mirror every single piece of data between you and whoever to a device for analyzing. You can't really hack it in the traditional sense. You can obfuscate the dataflow and sources but that is just buying time. Further you won't know because the inline device will probably be in promiscuous mode which only allows data to be received not transmitted. Given todays network speeds and capacities you would not have a clue that it was being done as none of the payload is modified or subject to latency.

brill

Originally posted by brill

Originally posted by Triad979
No one asked himself if users from the other side of the wire will be able to defend themselves. I could easily think about that security measure as some software package which is hackable...
Also, as every protocol and package has it's rules binded by unique program language with which it's made, it's easy to conclude that there will be cracked version or hack of some kind for that...

The security measures are just sniffers. They will simply mirror every single piece of data between you and whoever to a device for analyzing. You can't really hack it in the traditional sense. You can obfuscate the dataflow and sources but that is just buying time. Further you won't know because the inline device will probably be in promiscuous mode which only allows data to be received not transmitted. Given todays network speeds and capacities you would not have a clue that it was being done as none of the payload is modified or subject to latency.

brill

In plain English that means the FBI will be in the dark no matter what they do, right?

I've been checking into a little matter here and I'm sure all of you know about the USA Patriot Act. But September 11 was the attacks and I guess by a miracle they came up with a 172 page resolution and passed it on October 24, 2001. If I had to write something like that it would take my months to come up with that much. That makes me wonder if they were compiling the PA before the Sept 11th attacks.

What do you think?

Well, im downloading lot of movies and stuff.
So i can expect the FBI on the door, in one of these days?

OMG!!!

Originally posted by uberarcanist
In plain English that means the FBI will be in the dark no matter what they do, right?

On the contrary. It means that depending on the measures you take as an individual you can either be subjected to this or you can do something about it(and I'm not referring to useless petitions and calling your representative). Its been stated in several posts that the FBI's primary concern here is weeding out terrorist activity at least in the initial stages. I concur. First and foremost they want the public to view this setup as a justifiable means of getting the bad guys thus giving it purpose. Once the process has merit it gains widespread acceptance to be used as a deterrent. What happens next is anyones guess but things like corporate espionage are a valid concern.

With this type of information the FBI is very capable of getting what they need and now in a timely fashion. The ability has been there all along its just now easier for them to collect as needed. Remember this is not real-time collection until you are tapped but you won't know this.

I use similar technology almost daily. It is extremely thorough, accurate and intrusive but make no mistake it is doable. I'm not advocating any illegal activity here but you have options.

brill

[edit on 15-5-2007 by brill]

Originally posted by PSP
Well, im downloading lot of movies and stuff.
So i can expect the FBI on the door, in one of these days?

OMG!!!

Bangs on door... Open up FBI !!!

Your under arrest for downloading movies and music.

Maybe never can tell. Limelight should be ok but avoid Kazaa.

But I found a link here.

www.epic.org...

Well, im not of the limewire of limelight ore something of p2p, more of the newsgroups and ftp

Originally posted by Leyla

Originally posted by PSP
Well, im downloading lot of movies and stuff.
So i can expect the FBI on the door, in one of these days?

OMG!!!

Bangs on door... Open up FBI !!!

Your under arrest for downloading movies and music.

Maybe never can tell. Limelight should be ok but avoid Kazaa.

But I found a link here.

www.epic.org...

Nothing will be ok if used as is. I used to think that the RIAA/MPAA would not target the average user. We know now that with the 4th wave of RIAA lawsuits pending that these guys means serious business. Even major campuses are being heavily targeted. Don't forget too that the FBI warning on movies is there for a reason. The industries claim they are losing money but that is difficult to accurately assess given their bias. If you are a large volume p2p'er you best re-think your strategy. New technologies surface no question but their effectiveness given the ease of data capture is questionable. You have to ask yourself is the risk worth it now.

brill

Ok you know what all u people who are like "oh well if u have nothing to hide then it's ok" are idiots. It's people like you who are gonna go right along with hand chips and cameras on street lights.

Maybe you guys have nothing to hide..but i do. I been doing "illegal" stuff on the internet since the 90's so i'm very pissed about this. I have never paid for any song, program, or anything else over the internet..and i don't intend to start.

the problem with this law is that it impedes on our privacy, and is completley useless. fact is that online pedophiles don't even exist. most are just horny old men, who solicit willing teeange girls. it's not like they forcible AIM them, and make them perform sex acts over the computer..or meet somewhere. Oh no it's quite the opposite..the girls are willing and want to screw the old men and use it as as a means of pissing off their parents. saying that internet preadators exist is as stupid as saying that the war on terrorism can be won.

I been using internet for over 10 years... if someone "solicits you" there's something called the block button. honestly what idiot is stupid enough to get molested over the interenet. if your that dumb, not only do you deserve to get raped over the net..but u also have no business being on the net considering u can't even use a comuter.

News flash those 16 year old girls hanging out in those chat lines posting a bunch of suggjestive pics of themselves want it..so blame those little hussys instead of blaming the 40 year old men looking for them. It's no "accident" when they go meet a guy, it's intentional. So fact is that their not being molested, their getting the sex they want. but of course the cops twist it to make the guy out to be bad, because cops are scum.

The problem with this law is that it's just one more step in to having a privacy-free society. I value my privacy more than i value keeping us "Safe". The fact is that there really is no way to be safe. Someone can come up to you and shoot on in the back of the head for no reason, and there ain't nothing u can do to stop them. If they really want to keep people safe, they should ban all guns and bullets. Then people would be more safe.

Watch what happens this year, the rate of people getting fined for downloading music and movies will probably be multiplied times 10. what's worse is that i would say in 2 or 3 years, you won't be able to get anything off the internet without paying for it.

That's a disgrace the internet was always ment to be free and it's the government and brainwashed idiots who have no problem being spied on, that are destroying the great thing once known as cyberspace.

this law is terrible, but i'm sure someone will make a hack around it. it won't be long before some awesome internet warrior creates a program that stops the information from being sent. heck, it might even be me.

so i say don't worry about it to much for now..just use a lot of proxy servers, firewall, and if you are downloading something make it quick..burn it on a disk..then erase it from your comp.

just gotta stay one step ahead of these pigs that's all.

Originally posted by brill
Nothing will be ok if used as is. I used to think that the RIAA/MPAA would not target the average user. We know now that with the 4th wave of RIAA lawsuits pending that these guys means serious business. Even major campuses are being heavily targeted. Don't forget too that the FBI warning on movies is there for a reason. The industries claim they are losing money but that is difficult to accurately assess given their bias. If you are a large volume p2p'er you best re-think your strategy. New technologies surface no question but their effectiveness given the ease of data capture is questionable. You have to ask yourself is the risk worth it now.

brill

I know - I did try long time ago try to download a movie LOTR the second one, but something was wrong it didn't work right. So after that I never downloaded thats why I rather buy a movie or cd anyway.

Yeah thats a good point Spawwwn,
Im doing ilegal stuff on the internet to, but then since like 1999, i never bought anysoftware or music or what kind of pc stuff, because those things are hell expensive, take a look at a new game, the normally cost about 50 Euro! I mean what the heck! Im not gonna spend my money on that if i can get that for free in an hour.

At this point in the conversation, after reading the last couple of pages, I feel that it is important to clarify my posistion a little bit.

This action of 'monitoring the net' is, in itself, not the nail in the coffin in regards to our privacy and personal freedoms. It is, however, far from the first action taken in this direction and, based on extrapolation of past events, will be far from the last.

It is 'another step' in the direction of twindling personal freedoms and privacy. All the majority needs to do is hear the word terrorist or pedophile to gladly give it all away. In using these words the villifying of those who oppose the actions is also cemented into the minds of the majority.

What we give away in fear we can not take back.

It is an easily abused and potentially destructive tool. If the 'moral police' feel that a certain group is 'hurting' America and/or aiding criminal actions, somehow, this new monitoring system would be an easy way to make a list. Use a word filter (hell, first year vb programmers can make a word filter) to grab words or phrases and, at the very least, there is now a direction in which to face. In other words: True, they wont monitor everyone at every instant. They can, quite easily, red-flag and monitor those who they deem a threat...legitimate or not.

The end of our privacy and freedom? No.

Another slow and carefully placed step along the way? Most certainly, yes.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
I been doing "illegal" stuff on the internet since the 90's so i'm very pissed about this.

So, you are mad about this law because you do illegal things and don't want to get caught? How about you just follow the laws and you won't have to worry about getting caught. You should be mad about it because you don't do anything illegal and are still being watched.

And why would you go tell everyone that you do illegal things anyway? Keep it to yourself.

fact is that online pedophiles don't even exist. most are just horny old men, who solicit willing teeange girls.

Main Entry: pe·do·phil·ia
sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object

Source

Yeah, so they aren't pedophiles, they just like children...ok.

Watch what happens this year, the rate of people getting fined for downloading music and movies will probably be multiplied times 10.

Yes, probably. And whats wrong with people getting fined for downloading music and movies illegally?


[edit on 15/5/2007 by enjoies05]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Ok you know what all u people who are like "oh well if u have nothing to hide then it's ok" are idiots. It's people like you who are gonna go right along with hand chips and cameras on street lights.

Maybe you guys have nothing to hide..but i do. I been doing "illegal" stuff on the internet since the 90's so i'm very pissed about this. I have never paid for any song, program, or anything else over the internet..and i don't intend to start.

Your beliefs about privacy have nothing to do with breaking the law. Your confusing two very distant ideas here. The notion that everything should be handed to you is lunacy in the utmost, it just doesn't work like that. No one is forcing you to buy anything. If you don't like it either manufacture it yourself or move on but don't think that your privacy is an entitlement to protect you from breaking any laws, thats childish.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
fact is that online pedophiles don't even exist. most are just horny old men, who solicit willing teeange girls. it's not like they forcible AIM them, and make them perform sex acts over the computer..or meet somewhere. Oh no it's quite the opposite..the girls are willing and want to screw the old men and use it as as a means of pissing off their parents. saying that internet preadators exist is as stupid as saying that the war on terrorism can be won.

Absurd. There are online predators and they are real I don't see how you can possibly think otherwise. In cases such as this I'm actually for increased surveillance.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
I been using internet for over 10 years... if someone "solicits you" there's something called the block button. honestly what idiot is stupid enough to get molested over the interenet. if your that dumb, not only do you deserve to get raped over the net..but u also have no business being on the net considering u can't even use a comuter.

The difference here is that you know better. The victims are usually those that can't fathom others are out to get them. Its a parenting issue mostly and naivety as well. We learn from our mistakes and I'm sure you've made many just as I have, all part of growing up. Are you implying you've never made a mistake and not learned from it?

Originally posted by Spawwwn
That's a disgrace the internet was always ment to be free

Please show me where its written that the Internet is free? Its evolved from a military arrangement to an academic, social and commerce mega industry which equates to money.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
this law is terrible, but i'm sure someone will make a hack around it. it won't be long before some awesome internet warrior creates a program that stops the information from being sent. heck, it might even be me.

Not to sound rude but based on your lack of critical thinking here I have serious doubts that you will be the next Robin Hood of the Internet. The net is structured to send/receive data thats its primary task. If you stop information from being sent are you not defeating the purpose here? If not please enlighten myself and others.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
so i say don't worry about it to much for now..just use a lot of proxy servers, firewall, and if you are downloading something make it quick..burn it on a disk..then erase it from your comp.

Making these claims clearly outlines that you do not have a thorough understanding of how networks function. Proxy servers, firewalls, erasing hard drives are all very easily investigated. Your Hollywood ideals are not real world.

brill

[edit on 15-5-2007 by brill]

So enjoies05, you never download any music ilegal?
Come on, everybody is doing that these days.

Originally posted by PSP
So enjoies05, you never download any music ilegal?

Nope.

There is a thing called a job, and you do your job, and you get little green pieces of paper called "money" and you use that money to buy what you want. Downloading music is the same thing as stealing.

So, you are mad about this law because you do illegal things and don't want to get caught? How about you just follow the laws and you won't have to worry about getting caught. You should be mad about it because you don't do anything illegal and are still being watched.

And why would you go tell everyone that you do illegal things anyway? Keep it to yourself.

How about you stop acting like getting a few songs, or serial numbers is the end of the world. half the stuff is old anyway because it takes at least a year or more before new programs become avalible underground.

also some stuff isn't worth paying for..like a proxy program. no reason i should have to shell out $30 for something that simply changes my ip..when all i'm gonna use it for is spamming message boards.

The problem is the idea that every invention needs to be commercialzed and regulated. This is just paving the way for commercials on the internet. IT's just paving the way for the government to shut down free download and file sharing software. It's just another way to get in my pockets by forcing me to pay for stupid programs that half the time don't even work after a year.

Yes it's a problem becuase thje internet harms no one. big deal some crappy songs by some one hit wonders get downloaded. someone rips off adobe..wow lets call the cia. The internet is not that serious and never was. They are just taking all the fun out of using the interenet. watch, pretty soon it will be a crime to "flame" people! I think they need to go back to the 90s when you could hack peoples aim and IM punt people all day. now it's like "you im punted me i'm reporting you to TOS!" get bent. the internet is becomming hella gay in that respect. There are to many "rules" and "restrictions" on the IE nowadays..it's trash. Everyone gets offended if you curse, or spam in a chat...pee off you morons, that's what made the internet fun!

As for the pedophilia thing..who said i say they prey on children? it's not pedophila if they are past the age of puberty. News fash puberty kicks in like 13 or 14 so it's NOT pedophila. KEep in mind people use to be married and have kids at the ripe old age of 15..so this idea that we somehow are doing anybody a favor by locking up 40 year old men who sleep with willing teenage girls is garbage. like i said, lock those porstitutes up for being so loose. It's their fault really, they should be the ones going to jail..not the old guy who probably works his butt off all day.

And why shouldn't people be fined for DLing music? becuase this is the interenet. that's the whole purpouse of the internet. free things, and stuff you can't get anywhere else. Destroying that..is destroying everything that made the internet wonderful. It's not like the companies aren't making their money back..they are losing NOTHING..it just proves their greedy because me downloading spiderman 3 isn't gonna hurt WB..because they made their money back the first opening weekend!

To me this is as ridiculous as keeping weed illegal, and banning stem cell research and gay marraige. Just another way the government can oppress us for their own benefit, not ours.

don't belive the notion that less privacy means more security. less pricacy just means less rights you have as a human being.