I've figured this place out! no wonder..

"either there's a God or else the physical is all there is". There are other options.

That's not what I'm saying, i just don't get that you can believe humans are immortal, yet not believe it is possible that there is an immortal God.

this is why I asked you, do you believe humans are gods? Since we are supposedly immortal.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I believe that humans are a physical manifestation of a being. I believe the body is the physical means we use to get around and experience this life. I believe the "real" us; the important part of who we are, is not physical. I don't really expect you to understand and it's not necessary that you do, but I would like to let you know that there are many different things that people believe and it's not like "either there's a God or else the physical is all there is". There are other options.

I couldn't agree with you more Benevolent Heretic. I've always thought of our physical body's as simply a means of interacting with the physical world. You mind as i like to think of it as isn't physical and although I cant be sure of what happens when we die I do know that the reason we die is because our physical body fails us which doesn't nesiseraly mean out mind dies with our body.

thehumbleone why is there even a need for god? god was created (imo) to answer things people couldn't understand or to answer things people couldn't handle, some people just cant understand or handle the fact the the universe is simple here because it is, just as some people cant handle the thought of nothingness, I personally find it easy.

Its strange how people say there must be a god because they cant understand how we could be here otherwise but they don't think the same for the god that created us, its the same principle except your adding one more layer to explain away the previous layer.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
i just don't get that you can believe humans are immortal, yet not believe it is possible that there is an immortal God.

I didn't say that it's not possible. It is POSSIBLE. I said I don't have an indication of it. I don't have any evidence or indication that there is something that is "God".

this is why I asked you, do you believe humans are gods? Since we are supposedly immortal.

If I don't believe in "God", then how can I say that humans are Gods? That would mean I believe in Gods and I have already said that I don't. I didn't say it's IMPOSSIBLE that there is something called God, because it is possible. I just haven't experienced (seen, felt, heard) it.

I believe it's possible that aliens, Bigfoot, and other unproven things exist, just as I believe it's possible that God exists, even though I haven't experienced them. But I can't say that I believe in them because I have not experienced them.

Am I being unclear?

Originally posted by Edn
I
thehumbleone why is there even a need for god? god was created (imo) to answer things people couldn't understand or to answer things people couldn't handle, some people just cant understand or handle the fact the the universe is simple here because it is, just as some people cant handle the thought of nothingness, I personally find it easy.

maybe you can't handle or understand the fact that God is "I AM."

Oh, and FYI nobody can comprehend the thought of nothingness, if you exist, how can you comprehend non-existence? It is impossible, you will always be viewing it from third person.

Originally posted by thehumbleone

Originally posted by Edn
I
thehumbleone why is there even a need for god? god was created (imo) to answer things people couldn't understand or to answer things people couldn't handle, some people just cant understand or handle the fact the the universe is simple here because it is, just as some people cant handle the thought of nothingness, I personally find it easy.

maybe you can't handle or understand the fact that God is "I AM."

Oh, and FYI nobody can comprehend the thought of nothingness, if you exist, how can you comprehend non-existence? It is impossible, you will always be viewing it from third person.

What is "i am" supposed to mean? you lost me there.


Nothingness is like looking at empty space, theres nothing there, but you automatically give it a name and picture it in your mind, you make it exist when its the exact opsite. Once you realize that you cant give a word to something thats nothing, when you cant picture something that doesn't exist in your mind, when you don't automatically give it the colour black(because thats what you brain presents the absence of light as). Once you start to think like that you start to understand how nothingness doesn't exist, its not the space between >

"I AM" is a Biblical and Judaic concept.

Whenever a scholar from the Bible, one of the men who either wrote the books or was the main character of the book and thus had it named after him, had the luck to hear God in their physical ears as if God was nearby in a physical form like you and I, always said that God simply said "I AM" in reply or referrence to who God was, where he came from, etc. So you can assume questions like how old God is, and if God is eternal as in always existed are included as well. "I AM" means that God was always in existence, that God created the universe as we know and all contained therein, including our solar system, the sun and our planet Earth, and the people thereon. God created time. That God existed before all else, and there was never a point in TIME when God did not exist.

Yeshua, "Jesus", also said this when he famously replied to some Jews in the Bible that he existed before Moses did. He said, "before Moses walked this land, I AM" or something to that effect. This angered the Jewish men profusely, and they chased him away, if I'm not mistaken. So what "Jesus" was trying to explain was that his spirit existed before Moses' flesh and bones existed, or before Moses was born. And in this he was correct, IMO.

I know I took the liberty of connecting Spirituality and the Supernatural with the existence of God because of the stance nonbelievers routinely take in response to the question of God's existence, and in response to Christians. That stance is one very close to "Theres no scientific evidence of God therefore God does not exist! Until proven otherwise!" . So I say, Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, belief in MULTIPLE deities (Pagan/Wicca/Hinduism) and all such things would require there to be a divine source.

If I say spirits cant exist if God doesn't exist, and you say, well thats not necessarily true because you don't really know what does and doesn't exist now do you runetang? Then i'd say in reply, you too do not know for a fact that the spirits exist, or that you have proof in the existence of the ghosts, or the haunted house, or the multiple deities, so until it can be proven with evidence, it doesnt exist either!

And i'd be taking the exact same line, literally the exact same one. And so I did. And I think its powerful: You can't have spirituality without the intelligent creation of spirit at some point, somewhere, somehow, by something. Plain and simple 'something doesn't come out of literally nothing' ->FACT. heheh..

..unless you're talking about the "Big Bang", because then it's perfectly okay to believe a whole bunch of stuff (everything that exists everywhere) came from basically nothing beyond a singularity. but lets not get into that.

[edit on 5/16/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by runetang


Yeshua, "Jesus", also said this when he famously replied to some Jews in the Bible that he existed before Moses did. He said, "before Moses walked this land, I AM" or something to that effect. This angered the Jewish men profusely, and they chased him away, if I'm not mistaken. So what "Jesus" was trying to explain was that his spirit existed before Moses' flesh and bones existed, or before Moses was born. And in this he was correct, IMO.

It was actually Abraham instead of Moses.
Good post.

runetang that was perfect thanks. You cleared up the whole "i am" thing very clearly, I never did understand that till now.

Although I still don't agree with you when you say that god must exist for spirituality/spirits etc. to exist because well, why? Theres no real need for a god to exist for them to exist just as theres no need for us to exist for polar bears to exist.

You believe that god just IS, its always been there, before everything? Well I believe that everything down to the smallest particle and piece of energy has always existed, the same amount it exists now, the same amount existed before the big bang, it just IS. I just took 1 piece out of the equation god(s), to me it ends with energy I don't see the need for a creator for energy because then who created the creator and who created the creator of the creator, energy seams a logical place to stop because once you add another layer you only start repeating yourself.

I may be completely wrong and there may be god(s) out there but if there is im fairly sure it would accept my view of the universe as i see it now, as ive mentioned in past posts if any god(s) exist i simply cant see them as being any of the god(s) anyone currently worships and if they are I want no part of them.

I think theres a huge gulf between spirituality and organised religion.
You can be an spiritualy aware,compassionate,benevolent,empathic person without subscribing to any of the 3000+ non provable beleif systems alive in the world today.
With the exception Buddism (and a few others),most organised religions behave attrociously towards their fellow members of humanity and bickering/squabbling is rife.
There also seems a huge rise in cases of bigotry,intolerance and prejudice practised by extremist religious folk and the old saying
"Theres no bigot like a religious bigot"
seems more topical than ever.

Originally posted by Edn
runetang that was perfect thanks. You cleared up the whole "i am" thing very clearly, I never did understand that till now.

You believe that god just IS, its always been there, before everything? Well I believe that everything down to the smallest particle and piece of energy has always existed, the same amount it exists now, the same amount existed before the big bang, it just IS. I just took 1 piece out of the equation god(s), to me it ends with energy I don't see the need for a creator for energy because then who created the creator and who created the creator of the creator, energy seams a logical place to stop because once you add another layer you only start repeating yourself.

I see. So the way I think God is, you think all energy is, or all particles, like matter. That's interesting. Did you know some religions believe that theres an essence of God in every thing, every piece of matter, every inanimate object? Theres also people/religions that believe that God's essence is in every living thing, plants, animals, people, the Earth as a planet. And if everything IS God, then God doesn't have to be pre-eminent, or be created in this case. It's hard to understand because we live in this time, measured by this TIME .. and it's hard to understand or even imagine life outside of time. And time is this linear thing where it starts at a low number and keeps adding the same amount to itself, 365 days each year. It's a measurement for one thing, used by man to tell time, but also it's like .. i know this is going to sound crazy, but its like light or sound, or anything else that is subject to certain laws of physics. In the case of time, you can't travel faster than it, not even light can, not even sped up light can, this is one concept of a physical law that time has as an attribute. So we know it's subject to effect, or non-effect. We can't imagine life without time as a measurement because we've always had it.

But verily I say to you, there is no hour hands on clocks, or clocks that tell time in the afterlife. That is something non-physcal, the physical does not directly apply. And thus, the main marker for the physical, time, does not apply. So here you have this place where things can exist eternally, because time as a measurement is not there. Yea i know it barely makes sense, we can barely understand it. Correct that, we can't understand it, for it's the ways of God. But when we die we will know, or at least experience.

I think theres a huge gulf between spirituality and organised religion.
You can be an spiritualy aware,compassionate,benevolent,empathic person without subscribing to any of the 3000+ non provable beleif systems alive in the world today.
With the exception Buddism (and a few others),most organised religions behave attrociously towards their fellow members of humanity and bickering/squabbling is rife.

Ahh.. but you are tying in Spirituality and Compassion/Beneveolism/Empathy as attributes of a person, saying Spirituality means something else. Like an alternate definition. What you seem to be describing is a moral person, and a nice, thoughful person. And yes you can be moral, thoughtful, considerate, caring, all of these things, while still openly denouncing God or the existence thereof. And you can denounce God's existence outright and then turn around and say that you are a "Wiccan" or New Age Pagan, and go on to explain all the multiple deities, or beings, spirits, that you believe in. And that Wiccan person could have all the good personality traits listed above. So that is not the definition of Spirituality, but im glad you added that because it does show the difference.

And it shows that I (a believer) don/t automaticly think a nonbeliever is a bad person, or an evil person. They can be nice and sweet and caring. Many are. So in alot of cases.. its either personal decision, or confusion, or whatever, but clearly no evil intent. And I don't discriminate like many other "Christians" do. But alot of that is a product of the times of Older people, when they were younger customs were different. For example my girlfriend of 4+ years is not a Christian, is decidedly non-Christian, isn't clearly a Monotheist, and if anything, would be called a weak Agnostic with Atheistic tendencies. Yet we co-exist together. And I have this feeling that one day something more real than anything shes ever experienced is going to happen to her. Or something shes never had to deal with, something ultimately profound. And I hope then, that her spirit cries out, like mine did, because then it would be heard and responded to. Like mine was. But I dont tell her this. Actually, I keep most of my theories to myself..

[edit on 5/17/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by GreatTech
Well, who created gravity?

nothing

The Big Bang?

one leading theory is that our big bang was caused by the collision of two other universes.

Sure, the Big Bang said hi to you when you walked down the street.

no, religion is the one that anthropomorphizes natural forces, not science.

And all Bible writers and characters and churchgoers and people that pray are insane lunatics.

when has anyone said they were insane? well... maybe a couple of the bible writers could have been on a drug trip or had some hallucination problems (it would explain where they came up with some of their ideas), that sounds perfectly plausible. but that redundant assertion has never been made by myself or anyone on BTS.

God makes your heart beat.

i thought that was the lower parts of my brain doing that.

By the way, when you partially know God like I do, you will know that gravity is a drop in the bucket compared to God's power.

then why does one have to defend god?

Gravity is rarely under attack because it does not impinge on many people's belief in the afterlife.

no, gravity is rarely under attack because it would be silly to attack such a well established theory. hell, i think gravity is NEVER under attack.

God is under attack by those who believe they have had a bad life.

broad generalization. i think parts of my life have been crap... but who doesn't have their down times? i actually think i have a very good life. i have good friends, good family, good food on my plate, a good roof over my head, etc.

God will reward you with a better life but only if you serve Him.

i'm going to requote something i just quoted earlier

By the way, when you partially know God like I do, you will know that gravity is a drop in the bucket compared to God's power.

i think that speaks for itself as a resonse.

edit: fixed quote error

[edit on 5/17/07 by madnessinmysoul]