I've figured this place out! no wonder..

Originally posted by Columbus
If your belief in God had any truth to it, it wouldn't need constant defending. Where are the folks constantly defending gravity?

that makes sense, fantastic argument. isn't truth supposed to be unassailable or at least defended quite easily without needing a constant defense?

Originally posted by Columbus

Originally posted by GreatTech
...if we do not have to constantly defend our belief in God.

If your belief in God had any truth to it, it wouldn't need constant defending. Where are the folks constantly defending gravity? Which is the greater force, God or gravity? Which one is under attack? If it were such a great force, it would be undeniable.

Wherever I see GreatTech or humbleone, a thread is in such poor shape.

Well, who created gravity? The Big Bang? Sure, the Big Bang said hi to you when you walked down the street. And all Bible writers and characters and churchgoers and people that pray are insane lunatics.

God makes your heart beat. The sooner you find Him, the better.

By the way, when you partially know God like I do, you will know that gravity is a drop in the bucket compared to God's power.

Gravity is rarely under attack because it does not impinge on many people's belief in the afterlife.

God is under attack by those who believe they have had a bad life. I pray for those who think that that they have had a bad life. God will reward you with a better life but only if you serve Him.

I think you have it backwards. God isn't under attack and if he was, and he was real and had all the capabilities ascribed to him by his believers, he would certainly not need anyone's assistance.

It's non-theists who feel under attack. Because athiests choose not to believe and they get tired of being talked down to by people who - forgive me if this is out of line - appear to be extremely smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous and self-serving.

We don't attack god anyway because we don't believe in him. We are simply trying to figure out why other purportedly rational people do. How people can say they know something they can't see, hear, or otherwise experience in the material world. It is an alien concept to us. It doesn't make sense, so we keep questioning it, trying to make it comprehensible: why do people believe in something that does not appear to be there? And how do they make the distinction between the realities of different apparently non-existent beings such as the Tooth Fairy and the Boogeyman?

Everyone lives a sad and hard life in one way or another. That is not a real reason that people become non-believers. That is just your projection of your own idea as to why you might turn your back on your own faith; that's all you can imagine. It's another way of saying you pity us.

Others say we are evil, or arrogant, or pick-your-character-flaw. That's another way of being justified for feeling superior and looking down on us.

We just want to understand why. And how. I sat in churches and I didn't experience god. I experienced rather gentle forms of mass hysteria and mob mentality, but nothing I would consider holy.

I also want to know why it's so hard to accept that just because a person doesn't believe in (insert deity here), it doesn't mean they are immoral, evil, lazy, dirty, stupid or starving for the blood of the lamb. It just means we have a different set of world views.

If people like me didn't feel so threatened by the hold that the religious Right has got on this country, and what it would mean to live in a truly Christian nation if you were not a Christian, perhaps we wouldn't be on this forum questioning you so strongly.

We feel endangered. We feel outnumbered. We'd like to understand why we can't be accepted as we are without it turning into a pity party for our non-existent and eternal souls.

There are many different path's for people to take to find god and life's question's. For this reason no one religion is greator and no one religion is lessor. There is nothing wrong with not being able to find answers and or god through sitting in a church. There is nothing wrong with being able to find the answers in church either.

Religion can be taken the wrong way which would cause the user to be driven further away from where he origionaly started.

Although some people are helped greatly by religion and they use religion as a tool to help them on their own path to god and the inner knowledges.

It is important not to let religion overtake and completly control you. rather use it as a guide or a tool for your own spiritual beneifit. it is key knowing when and where to draw lines. only you will know what helps you attain greator understanding and knowledge and god, draw your lines accordingly. Alot of people are allready doing this now ^^

Do I goto church? No
Do I disbelieve religion? No
Do I accociate myself with any religion? No
Do I beleive in god? Yes
Do I pray? Yes
Do I seek spiritual development and answers? Yes
Do I use many different spiritual tools to develop? Yes

I use any and every means nessiccary to gain spiritual devoplment (only when I feel right about it)including but not only religion.

If you dont feel any particular method is right in your heart then question it, if you know its wrong disregard it.

Trust yourself you will not be steered wrong. You are what you are.
Let yourself decide what is right and wrong for yourself.

It is right aslong as it feels right to you. This is why you cant tell somone they are wrong because they feel they are right. Only they themsevles can decide when and if they are wrong. This is one way we develop and learn through what we call life.

Originally posted by GreatTech
God will reward you with a better life but only if you serve Him.

Says your religion and almost every other religion on this planet. The good thing about being an atheist, they don't have pick a side when theists start quarreling and fighting with other theists of a different religion or that of the same religion but with a different view.

Try to imagine what it would be like to start preaching your religion to a galaxy full of alien species, each with their own brand of religion, when so many theists here find it so difficult to co-exist peacefully those of the same species with or without a religion that is different from theirs.

An atheists generally worries more about the decency and moral ethics of other people, the theists does the same but more importantly wants everyone else to worship and subscribe to their particular band of religion and their deity.

More like a cult than that of a spiritual teaching.

[edit on 16-5-2007 by ixiy]

Originally posted by DarkCyrus
There are many different path's for people to take to find god and life's question's. For this reason no one religion is greator and no one religion is lessor. There is nothing wrong with not being able to find answers and or god through sitting in a church. There is nothing wrong with being able to find the answers in church either.

Religion can be taken the wrong way which would cause the user to be driven further away from where he origionaly started.

Although some people are helped greatly by religion and they use religion as a tool to help them on their own path to god and the inner knowledges.

It is important not to let religion overtake and completly control you. rather use it as a guide or a tool for your own spiritual beneifit. it is key knowing when and where to draw lines. only you will know what helps you attain greator understanding and knowledge and god, draw your lines accordingly. Alot of people are allready doing this now ^^

Do I goto church? No
Do I disbelieve religion? No
Do I accociate myself with any religion? No
Do I beleive in god? Yes
Do I pray? Yes
Do I seek spiritual development and answers? Yes
Do I use many different spiritual tools to develop? Yes

I use any and every means nessiccary to gain spiritual devoplment (only when I feel right about it)including but not only religion.

If you dont feel any particular method is right in your heart then question it, if you know its wrong disregard it.

Trust yourself you will not be steered wrong. You are what you are.
Let yourself decide what is right and wrong for yourself.

It is right aslong as it feels right to you. This is why you cant tell somone they are wrong because they feel they are right. Only they themsevles can decide when and if they are wrong. This is one way we develop and learn through what we call life.

If only most theist are like you, unfortunately, I think there are a lot of theist on the path of religious fundamentalism, they have little tolerance or understanding to others who have chosen a different path.

I prefer peace loving, understanding theist like yourself to most other intolerant, holier than thou theist types. They seem to be spreading more hate than peace without realizing it.

The same can be said of some atheist, I think the key maybe be a moderate thinker/believer and not the go to any extreme ends.

[edit on 16-5-2007 by ixiy]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

just man and his logic, standing naked in the darkness.

are you honestly trying to tell me there's no veiled attack in there?

Lol.. of all the things you mentioned, which weren't attacks, (since when is addressing someone as Atheist or saying "Those Atheists" as a generalization an attack? unless one finds the name Atheist shameful for some reason..) this one would come the closest to an attack. But still yet, its not really even an attack, its just making a little fun. I see a difference everyday between the two.

Lets get off the attack sh#t it looks rather petty like kids saying "you hit me first, no YOU did!" in the schoolyard.

Okay madness, so you spent most of life as a theist, and now are an atheist. I spent most of my life as an atheist, and am now a theist. So we are opposites of each other, quite literally. We're going to take a similar stance with opposite points it seems.

So some can agree that alot of the debate lately is circular and repitious, that is good. That is one of the major things I wanted acknowledged. But beyond this, even this debate has run dry, or so it seems.

I can understand an honest curiosity into how a person could believe in a God without scientific proof will drive alot of Atheists. This is totally fine, and I'll bet maybe some of those might convert one day to Monotheism. But, theres also Atheists like you madness, who used to be Christians for quite some time and became disillusioned by it.

All I can say is, if I didn't have religion 100% my way, my interpretation, no one telling me the way im reading into it is right or wrong, I wouldn't want it any other way at all. So naturally I dont go to Church, I dont do alot of the things other Christians may do, and I hangout with mostly people who don't even speak about religion.
-> and I've never been baptized! I'm going to Hell for sure!

I feel like I'm at my best as far as God's work on Earth is concerned, because we have to fulfill it, he's made a rule, and he always abides by his own edicts, that states he will not directly interfere with affairs of men. Likewise, he wil not directly bring a global flood to pass either, that is a promise by him to the survivors of the last one to happen. I know someone is going to take the time to point out that according to scripture God wrecklessly and inconsiderately flooded the whole world to kill all men, and how bad that is.

And I say yes he indeed did make that happen, whether it was a random occurence created by all the scientific laws of creation that he set forth, such as gravity and the speed of light, for example, or if it was an intentional action. Either way, indeed he caused it. But the men of the world were quite trifling, I mean, you know the story right? Half-giants roaming about eating people, hellspawn of man and angel, nothing but evil men that were Idolatrous, etc. So in the context of the story, STORY, heh, he did have a good reason to do that.

The truth is probably closer to it being a random occurence due to certain conditions which created a reaction causing a super flood soto speak. But even that is God given.. as all things, good and bad, painful and pleasurable. So what of Sodom & Gomorrah? Did he really rain fire and brimstone down upon those cities? That is so genocidal! And homophobic, I mean, just because the townsmen were gay doesn't mean it's okay to bomb the sh#t out of them right? Lol. But the truth lies somewhere inbetween. An earthquake triggering a volcanic eruption along the Jordan River parallel coordinate running north/south could've caused the destruction, and the ash and pumice falling from the sky could've been the 'fire and brimstone' you see. That area, the plains East of the Jordan River and Southeast of it sits directly upon a point where tectonic plates rub, causing quakes. So it may have very well been a freak occurence, but I'll tell you one thing, if those towns were known for their homosexuality, the people of that day would definitely think they were destroyed because of this. So thats how the story came about to begin with, in my opinion.

[edit on 5/16/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by runetang
Why are Atheists running around making so many "hard arguements against God" and all these threads they create, when this is a Spirituality forum, and they by definition are anti-spirit?

Hi runetang.

Firstly, when you think about it, ALL forums here (9/11, politics, UFOs) are composed of posts and threads "for" and "against" a particular subject. Why should this forum be any different? It's not a church where people come together to agree on one side of the issue. This is a discussion forum, where people come together to discuss and debate the pro and con, the right and wrong, the up and down of ALL issues, including Faith, Spirituality and Theology.

Secondly, you are mistaken. Atheists are not by definition "anti-spirit". A disbelief in a God does not necessarily preclude a belief in spirit. Atheists can have faith in many things. They can be spiritual. And they can have a genuine interest in theology. I like to add that Agnostics many times even believe in life after death and other faith-based positions, but don't believe we can know if there's a God.

This is like someone who does not play baseball, knowing little of baseball, coming and telling all the baseball players how they're so wrong ...

Again, you assume that an Atheist "knows little" about religion. In the vast majority of cases, Atheists know a LOT about theology and religion. That's many times precisely why they are Atheists.

I just didn't think someone who is against the idea of each person having a spirit, and an afterlife, could be so enthralled by a forum where spirituality is the main topic.

You don't understand how someone who is "against" something might want to discuss why they're against it? What about people who are against abortion? Do you think they might want to discuss that? How about guns? Do you think it's silly for people who are against guns to voice their opinions?

(And like I said before, Atheists [and Agnostics] aren't necessarily against each person having a spirit, and an afterlife.)

which would be, converting believers into unbelievers.

And Lord knows there are no believers trying to convert non-believers.

so what makes you guys (atheists) honestly think that your efforts are going unwasted here?

The effort is to share opinions and discuss and debate. The effort is not wasted. I believe many Atheists and Agnostics are just debating for the sake of debate. Like everywhere else on the board. I mean, how often does someone actually change their mind about these issues? How often do you see a Republican become a Democrat? Or a firearm proponent become gun control advocate? And yet we discuss the pros and cons of the subjects.

i think they just feel left out.

I think you're wrong. I think you have the wrong idea about this forum. It is not a church. It's a place where people can discuss ALL SIDES of Faith, Spirituality and Theology. It's not a place where people come to pat each other on the back for believing the same way.

Theology is the study and reasoned discourse of religion and the idea of God or gods. Atheists study theology, just as Americans study Latin or as people study history. I'm not Japanese, but I may study Japanese culture. I'm not a man, but I can speak about men and what I think about men. See what I mean? We don't have to be something to discuss it and learn about it and debate it.

Just some ideas for you to consider.

Originally posted by runetang
Ever wonder why the "Faith, Spirituality & Theology" forum, made for people to discuss those topics, is dominated by a sect of people who are anti-spirituality, anti-God by definition?

You should take a closser look at the title of this forum.

Faith: It has nothing to do with god(s), anyone can have faith in a number of things, I have faith in this world to continue to revolve round the Sun for another 60 years.

faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

As you can see faith doesn't nesiseraly have anything to do with any god(s) or religion.

Spirituality: Since when does Spirituality have anything to do with god? Atheist can be spiratul without the need for god.

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

As you can see again you don't need to believe in god(s) to be spiritual. Id also say it has a few other meaning than listed above.

In fact the only word out of the three that describe this forum that that has to do exclusively with god(s) and religion is Theology.

the·ol·o·gy (th-l-j)
n. pl. the·ol·o·gies
1. The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.
2. A system or school of opinions concerning God and religious questions: Protestant theology; Jewish theology.
3. A course of specialized religious study usually at a college or seminary.

And even then Atheists have as much right to talk about the non-existence of god(s) as you have the right to talk of the existence of god(s) because not one of those words say "Not for Atheists" in them.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

You don't understand how someone who is "against" something might want to discuss why they're against it? What about people who are against abortion? Do you think they might want to discuss that? How about guns? Do you think it's silly for people who are against guns to voice their opinions?

(And like I said before, Atheists [and Agnostics] aren't necessarily against each person having a spirit, and an afterlife.)

which would be, converting believers into unbelievers.

And Lord knows there are no believers trying to convert non-believers.

so what makes you guys (atheists) honestly think that your efforts are going unwasted here?

The effort is to share opinions and discuss and debate. The effort is not wasted.

I believe many Atheists and Agnostics are just debating for the sake of debate. Like everywhere else on the board. I mean, how often does someone actually change their mind about these issues? How often do you see a Republican become a Democrat? Or a firearm proponent become gun control advocate?

And yet we discuss the pros and cons of the subjects.

You have voted Benevolent Heretic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Exactamundo. Well said, I applaud thee, Benevolent Heretic. Well, I don't applaud, as I can't, but I did the next best thing.

You put in words exactly what was getting up my nose on this post.

Telling non-theists to go get their own forum felt like an attempt at exclusionism and censorship.

If the theists' faith in god is so strong, who cares if we discuss it? The only reason to exclude us is because we are making sense to some people and shaking their faith.

Originally posted by dbates
Christians are no better than anyone else. It's their faith in Christ that is important. Hopefully their experience will help change them for the better. I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to Hell. That's a terrible fate.

This is very true dbates.

I must admit, the Spirit has been convicting me about my comment about atheists going to the lake of fire, it was uncalled for. It was something I said out of anger and spite. I admit it was very unchristian like for me to say that. May Christ forgive me.

Originally posted by GreatTech
God is under attack by those who believe they have had a bad life. I pray for those who think that that they have had a bad life. God will reward you with a better life but only if you serve Him.

This has been very true in my own life experience GreatTech.

Back in high school, there was a time when I turned my back on God. I still knew he existed, but I consciously rebelled against him. This was during a time when I thought the occult and Satanism were cool. During that period, let's just say a series of crappy events in my life made me turn away from what I was doing. Now that I have repented, i must admit, life is very good.

lol .. yes, i have it all wrong, silly me.

and for the record, i never told anyone to do anything..

never said "go get your own forum" ..

told you that you belong here.. just not in the majority.. and if you are indeed the majority, i think the forum should be renamed to something more appropiate, as it would be misleading.

and in my, and many, many Christains opinion, scratch that, most of the Monotheists of the world, even those unsure (agnostic), do not think a spirit can exist whilst denying that a creation happened and a creator exists or existed. dont believe me? ask them.

you cant have supernatural without God. that means no ghosts, no apparitions, no "past lives", no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell, no afterlife, no soul, no spirit, nada. just this physical realm which you can detect with your five senses exists and thats all that exists without a God. nothing supernatural exists without God.

and belief in the supernatural without the belief in God is incredibly backwards. how can you believe in a spirit, but not think theres a creator? where did that spirit come from? did it evolve from micro organisms? loll.

[edit on 5/16/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by runetang
lol .. yes, i have it all wrong, silly me.

and for the record, i never told anyone to do anything..



[edit on 5/16/2007 by runetang]

Runetag, what the heck are you talking about?

was replying to a post further up which was quoting me.

and that which you quoted was sarcasm lol.

Originally posted by runetang
i think the forum should be renamed to something more appropiate, as it would be misleading.

Is the 9/11 forum appropriately named? Who is in the majority there? People who believe in the official story or those who have conspiracy ideas about it?

you cant have supernatural without God. ... nothing supernatural exists without God.

Where did that rule come from? Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it can't exist. You may have a misunderstanding about what people believe, but their beliefs are every bit as valid as yours.

how can you believe in a spirit, but not think theres a creator?

I won't go into it, because I'm not interested in doing that, but it's definitely possible. God is not necessary for spirituality, the existence of souls, afterlife or any number of non-physical concepts. Just because you have always connected them doesn't mean that's the way it is. You seem to have a certain paradigm about what a atheist (or agnostic) is and all I can say is that not everyone who doesn't believe in God fits into the box you'd have wrapped around them.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
God is not necessary for spirituality, the existence of souls, afterlife or any number of non-physical concepts.

But I don't get it, if you can believe humans are immortal and have a spirit, why can't you believe there is an immortal non-physical God who is spirit. Is it because you don't want to abide by his laws, or you don't want to accept the responsibility of free will?

it almost sounds like you don't want to believe in him. Do you believe humans are their own gods?

[edit on 16-5-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by runetang

and belief in the supernatural without the belief in God is incredibly backwards. how can you believe in a spirit, but not think theres a creator? where did that spirit come from? did it evolve from micro organisms? loll.

[edit on 5/16/2007 by runetang]

Where did dark matter come from? we cant see it, as far as we know with out very basic knowledge of the universe it doesn't have any physical property yet its there, that doesn't mean god created it. Just because you can understand how something works doesn't mean that some almighty powerful being created it, we left almost all that sillyness behind us when we stopped burning witches because they did something we didn't understand.

Originally posted by thehumbleone

But I don't get it, if you can believe humans are immortal and have a spirit, why can't you believe there is an immortal non-physical God who is spirit.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe in immortality or souls. Ergo I don't believe in god either.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
But I don't get it, if you can believe humans are immortal and have a spirit, why can't you believe there is an immortal non-physical God who is spirit.

It's not that I can't believe it. It's that I have no indication of it. I DO however have indication that people live on after they leave this world. I have "felt" and "heard" messages from people who have died. Many times. My brother had an NDE (he actually died) and he returned to tell about it. What he told me supported what I already believed and have indications of.

I have no such indications of something called "God".

Is it because you don't want to abide by his laws, or you don't want to accept the responsibility of free will?

No.

it almost sounds like you don't want to believe in him.

It's not about wanting to believe. I don't have a desire to believe one way or another. It's that I believe what I have seen, heard and experienced and I've never seen, heard or experienced something that indicated to me the existence of "God".

Do you believe humans are their own gods?

I don't know what that means. So... no.

I believe that humans are a physical manifestation of a being. I believe the body is the physical means we use to get around and experience this life. I believe the "real" us; the important part of who we are, is not physical. I don't really expect you to understand and it's not necessary that you do, but I would like to let you know that there are many different things that people believe and it's not like "either there's a God or else the physical is all there is". There are other options.