Should The Poor Be Sterilized

Until the people making the decisions are all saints at every level, sterilization will not work. It becomes a weapon of mass destruction on the order of any genocide you choose to name. There are other solutions, we need to focus on those.

Africa is not A case in point, it's THE case in point. The entire continent is swimming in resources of every sort, yet save for South Africa, most of the continent is living at a subsistence level, if that...until Africa is willing to solve its problems, nothing will work; not charity, not sterilization, nothing, they're just used as yet another weapon by the warlords, bandits, and psycho's portraying themselves as leaders of nations.

Africa has to want to save itself, we can't do it for them. No matter how much we'd like to.

Originally posted by seagull
Until the people making the decisions are all saints at every level, sterilization will not work. It becomes a weapon of mass destruction on the order of any genocide you choose to name. There are other solutions, we need to focus on those.

Africa is not A case in point, it's THE case in point. The entire continent is swimming in resources of every sort, yet save for South Africa, most of the continent is living at a subsistence level, if that...until Africa is willing to solve its problems, nothing will work; not charity, not sterilization, nothing, they're just used as yet another weapon by the warlords, bandits, and psycho's portraying themselves as leaders of nations.

Africa has to want to save itself, we can't do it for them. No matter how much we'd like to.

I agree with your second point. But to equate stopping the reproduction of a people who are already committing genocide of their living children, with that, which is not in existance, is just plane wrong.

You cannot commit genocide on the un-concieved. So just quit with the hyperbole.

To quote you Seagull: "Clowns are evil. Evil I say. Holocaust Deniers: Reality deniers."

Don't be a reality denier.

[edit on 11-5-2007 by eyespy2]

Hyperbole? Where's the hyperbole in what I said. Sterilization is the death of the future. Seriously my freind, you need to look at the future of Africa. If the poor are sterilized, and lets face it, most of Africa are living definitions of poor, who rebuilds the continent? The children of the warlords and psychos? (Hollow Laugh) They're too busy spending their stolen loot in Paris and elsewhere.

Sterilization is a short sighted solution at best, or a catastrophe of, dare I say it, biblical proportions writ large. The only thing that will work is for a generation of Africans to stand up and take back what is rightfully theirs. They can't do it, if they're not born.

Africa's legacy is as old as mankind itself. It gave birth to everything that we were, everything we are, and the potential to be everything we want to be in the future. Yet the thing we, most of us anyway, know about Africa is Darfur, or blood diamonds. I want to see Africa as it should be, the home to wonderful people and places that have sung to us down through history. Forced sterilization is not the path to that, it's far, far too short sighted a solution to work, and it leaves the worst of Africa in charge.

Until the warlords and their ilk are gone, Africa will never regain what she has lost.

A trifle off topic, but not horribly so.

I see most of you here are afraid that you might be one who gets sterilized. Fear, fear, fear........

There is about 99% lack of objectivity from you all.

Good decisions cannot be made when you are emotional.

As to the situation in Africa, I will say that they would have taken care of themselves had the white man not gone in there to bring "civilzation" to them. Without our aid, I am sure that they would eventually take care of themselves in balance with their environment.

THe time for a good solid practice of Eugenics is one that should have been fully instituted back in Sanger's time. We would have a stronger, healthier, happier population. Only the intelligent, healthy, well formed should be allowed to breed.

Yes, seagull, Africa is swimming with resources. Without our hand feeding them and wiping their whatevers..they would have to work to get those resources together to use in trade for whatever they lack. They can't do that under present conditions. White man's greed corrupted the whole place. Those people are still being used and abused in ways that you cannot even imagine. Do some research.

A good clean steilization program would be doing them a big favor. Whether you are thinning the herd or thinning your seedlings, one thing is for certain. The ones left grow bigger, healthier and stronger.

As to everything we are coming from Africa.....that is another whole subject of debate.

Originally posted by seagull
Hyperbole? Where's the hyperbole in what I said. Sterilization is the death of the future. Seriously my freind, you need to look at the future of Africa.

Sterilization is a short sighted solution at best, or a catastrophe of, dare I say it, biblical proportions writ large. The only thing that will work is for a generation of Africans to stand up and take back what is rightfully theirs. They can't do it, if they're not born.

Until the warlords and their ilk are gone, Africa will never regain what she has lost.

A trifle off topic, but not horribly so.

Sterilization is the building of a future upon the strength of the living!

The warlords have sold out the people to big business. The goal of big business is to get rid of as many blacks as they can, with the help of the warlords, and evil leaders like Mugabe, and al-Bashir.

Short-sighted? Please! Is it short sighted to save 1 million babies from sure death. Read this article - www.msnbc.msn.com... here's an excerpt:

Sudan leader: U.N. forces not needed in Darfur
"There is broad skepticism around the world about al-Bashir’s commitment to peace after years of support for local militia attacks on innocent civilians in Darfur. More than 200,000 people have been killed and 2.5 million forced to flee their homes in violence that President Bush has labeled genocide."

2.5 million forced to flee their homes! 2.5 million! Most of them are women and children. Soon the 2.5 million, will be 3.5 million, even thought they have no place to live, no food, no water, no medical care, becaue they WILL CONTINUE BREEDING CHILDREN, creating a catastrophe, as you say, "Of Biblical Proportions".

Short term? I say begin issuing the sterilization shots, and pills, right now, and spare the horrible genocide that will be apparent in 9 months, when all the newbies are born.

Wake up my friend to the reality of this current hell! The future is right now!

I keep saying it, and no one wants to hear it, but 2.5 million despirate, hungry people, are going to start looking at a new born infant as food. Then what will your bleeding heart say about their rights to conceive?

Originally posted by OhZone As to everything we are coming from Africa.....that is another whole subject of debate.

The species emerged from Africa. Period.

The rest of the issue? Let's just call it 'The Final Solution" and put it to rest.

Me? I'm outta here, cuz, like they say north of the Third Concession, 'Ya can't polish a turd.' It's time I pay attention to my signature, below.

So to save the now, you sacrifice the future? What about that isn't shortsighted? Yes its horrible, would you think I'd think otherwise? Yes, they should quit having babies for the now, but to take it away for all time? Sorry, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

[edit on 11-5-2007 by seagull]

My research is just fine thank you. You may continue to advocate your own version of genocide, but since there will be no visible victims to bury, it isn't genocide.

As for my bleeding heart? Thank you. At least I still apparently have one, a heart I mean.

See ya.

originaly posted by Johnmike
The problem is simply this:
We have no jurisdiction over anything in Africa.
Sorry. And even if we did, it's a gross violation of rights. I would immediately revolt against any government that did such a moronic thing.

No you wouldn't you would just sit there and take it, that's what really upsets you.

original eyespy2
Actually the problem is, nobody really gives a damn!
And the rest of the civilized world just prefes to wait it out, until they're all dead, or enough to turn the viables into slave labor - to mine the natural resorces.
Or put up hotels and casinos, and shopping malls, creating a service based society with outside labor.
If they could get ahold of their overpopulation problem now, they just might have a chance for a future. But their leaders have sold them out. Thus the cleansing will continue, and the babies will continue to pop out.

The problem isn't that no one gives a damn, its that now one really know's what the solution is. If we send food, the warlords just steal it and kill everyone. If we sterilize them than we are Like it or not the Nazi's of the 21st century. If we install a puppet he is eventually over thrown by a revolution of crazies who kill in almost a zombie movie like trance.

jsobecky
Africa is a good example of where the UN should be involved, if the UN were an effective organization. A co-ordination of all nations united to solve a major problem of human suffering.
But the UN is incapable of co-ordinating and carrying out such a mission. As a matter of fact, in the few cases where they have gotten involved, they turned out to be a part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
If the US were to tackle the problem unilaterally, they would be accused of imperialism.

The UN has never been worth a spit. It's never been an effective organization. That's why the elite are pushing for a one world government. They failed to gain the control they thought would happen with the UN. We all know that the UN currently has no soldiers, they are all in Iraq. When ever the UN needs soldiers, they always, Always, end up being 80-90% US soldiers under some idiot from France. Maybe being labeled Imperialist, isn't that bad. We are already being called worse for trying to fix the middle east.

Johnmike
That's the problem. You can't force something upon people. They have to set up their own government, we can't do it for them...
That's not our responsibility. A government only exists to protect the welfare of its people, not others'. They are uneducated and illiterate, and therefore have a lot of development to go through before they are capable of governing themselves. By doing their job for them, you're only making it worse. You can't let guilt override your judgment, no matter how tempting it is.

Governments are forced on these people all the time, a new one every week. That's why it is the way it already is. You are misguided if you think that OUR Government exist to protect the welfare of our people alone. We are the most powerful government in the world, weither the rest of the world likes it or not. With Great Power comes, Great Responsibility It is our Responsibility to try to make the world a better place. I'm not saying Sterilization is the answer, it is not. But you have to ask yourself the tough question, if not us who? When nobody else steps forward. The ball rolls to the current top gun who is forced to act.

Originally posted by Royal76
No you wouldn't you would just sit there and take it, that's what really upsets you.

Huh? Is that a sort of personal attack? Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by Royal76
The UN has never been worth a spit. It's never been an effective organization. That's why the elite are pushing for a one world government. They failed to gain the control they thought would happen with the UN. We all know that the UN currently has no soldiers, they are all in Iraq. When ever the UN needs soldiers, they always, Always, end up being 80-90% US soldiers under some idiot from France. Maybe being labeled Imperialist, isn't that bad. We are already being called worse for trying to fix the middle east.

I agree, but it's even more than this. Any nation trying to force something upon another is going to eventually fail. It's just a form of imperialism.

Originally posted by Royal76
Governments are forced on these people all the time, a new one every week. That's why it is the way it already is.

Correct. So because they do it, we should too? Because they censor things in China, we should become Communist?

Originally posted by Royal76
You are misguided if you think that OUR Government exist to protect the welfare of our people alone. We are the most powerful government in the world, weither the rest of the world likes it or not. With Great Power comes, Great Responsibility It is our Responsibility to try to make the world a better place. I'm not saying Sterilization is the answer, it is not. But you have to ask yourself the tough question, if not us who? When nobody else steps forward. The ball rolls to the current top gun who is forced to act.

Misguided? This government is funded EXCLUSIVELY by ITS CITIZENS. It is run EXCLUSIVELY by its citizens. There is nothing foreign about the United States! With great power comes great responsibility, and to force your will on others is to deny that responsibility. You have to realize that you aren't God, you aren't King, and you aren't Dictator. The government is run by mere citizens who have no right, no right at all, to force our own beliefs on other people.

There's a reason that the world hates us. There's a reason that billions of dollars and thousands of lives have been wasted in the joke called the Iraq War.

The reason is that our country is no extension of Heaven or the Divine, as much as some might wish it to be. The government run by men, funded by men, and exists exclusively to protect the rights of these men.

No one suggested sterilizing Africans to extinction. If all those of breeding age today were sterilized, that would still leave a whole generation of youngsters to start breeding again in 5 years or so.
And to be realistic; the population of Africa is 400 million or so. You can't sterilize them all. So put your fears of extinction to rest.

Actually the best thing anyone could do for them is to leave them alone.
The stormiest waters eventually settle down and seek their own level. And so it would be in Africa. No one has a responsibility to take care of them or in any way to "help" them. They are like a box of rats churning about. When rat population become too dense they kill each other as well as their young. Nothing new there. That is life on planet earth. Mother nature just doing her thing. For a species to survive they must cull ther herd. Rats are smarter than people.

Let Africa alone, when they settle down we can talk to them about making deals on some of their resources in exchange for ours.

Thanks Seagull for the invite...

I see several problems with the sterilization of humans for any reason.

The first and most obvious is the complete revulsion I feel when man contemplates playing God...

Hitler played around with sterilization prior to deciding on a much simpler and faster method, genocide..
Stalin, and Pol Pot (AKA Soloth Sar) all were grand proponents of what you propose here in this thread..

Be that as it may, there are other equally important reasons Man should never play God.

"The only thing that man learns from History, is that Man never learns from history" Or, "Those that refuse to learn from history, are forever doomed to repeat it."

Example
In our infinite wisdom, we introduce Rabbits to Australia.. Result, Tragedy
Then to combat the rabbits, we introduce the Fox... Result, Tragedy

Every single time man has decided that he is smarter than God or Mother Nature if you will, we have received a full load of egg on our face. As advanced as we may think we are technologically, we are simple babes in the woods as far as our knowledge of the workings of this planet go.

Need proof? Look at the massive support for the fictional global warming fiasco... SHEESH.. we never learn..

So we decide in our compassion that we are going to sterilize a segment of people for their own good. Now granted they are not US citizens, but do you not believe they have rights? Who are you, us or ANYONE to make that kind of decision? Once that decision is made, who decides where it stops? If it works, let's go the obvious route and sterilize the homeless here in the US. Only who determines how long they must be homeless before they qualify for sterilization? What if your Aunt Sally went homeless for the day, does she get sterilized?
Sound outrageous?
Not when you are considering the sterilization of a mass number of people, in Africa, then my scenario becomes even more real and plausible.

How many single individuals from broken homes, growing up in poverty, have risen to greatness? I would suggest, most of the true earth movers and shakers...
What happens when we sterilize the mother of the next World Leader that was destined to bring peace to the world, but we take our action before she has a chance to mother our savior?
Philosophically Hypothetical? Of course, but no less valid.

I grew up dirt poor from parents that abandoned me at 3 years old on a street corner. I am ever so happy though, that my mother was not sterilized as you can imagine. I went hungry sometimes growing up, but I did grow up and if I may be allowed to "Blow my own horn", there are several people alive today because of me.

I do not know what the answer is in Africa, but I do know that no good has ever come of Man playing God in any situation. And I really don't care if you believe in God or not, the concept applies so get over my verbiage.

Being humanitarian is a just and noble goal that we all should aspire too. Being a megalomaniac is not. Having the best interests of people is wonderful, thinking you know what is best for others; again, is not.

Semper

Oh My!
How did this thread manage to sneak under my radar for so long?

First of all, EyeSpy. I understand that this is your opinion, and thus cannot be morally right or wrong. But I believe you may have formed this opinion without actual legitimacy.

Please allow me to tell you a bit about myself, and cut a long story short. I grew up in South Africa. Utter Poverty. Sometimes all we had for to eat was a stale loaf of bread which had to last up to a week, and be shared between a family of four.
That was a little over a decade ago. Now I am earning a decent living. Living quite high above the poverty line. And I am now a well respected individual of the community.

I wont lie to you and tell you that it was earned with hard work and determination. Most of it was good fortune.

Now theoretically, if my family had been sterilized due to our lack of finance, where would that leave me? I am not 'poor' anymore, but yet I must suffer because of the class I was born in? Nor can I have children or an heir to pass my legacy? Not to mention that had my parents been sterilized before my birth, you are in essence refusing my existence. Why not just outright murder the poor? After all, you are talking about genocide.

In sight of this, doesn't it seem a little elitist to suggest the sterilization of those you deem of lower class due to their socio-economic standpoint?

Originally posted by eyespy2
If you can't afford to feed yourself ... you shouldn't be allowed to have any more CHILDREN!

The key word here is 'afford'.
Why should people of non-western backgrounds have to obey western concepts? It doesn't cost much to feed someone. Besides, there are other ways of obtaining substinance without having to pay for it. For example, We grew our own. If bad comes to wrong, the poor could always steal from you rich folk! What? Did you find that last comment socially and morally wrong? Well I'll discuss that further along the track, but for now, let me focus on something.
"If you can't afford to feed yourself, you shouldn't be allowed to have any more children."
That's pretty closed minded. One's current financial standpoint is never constant. You are in essence dooming someones future due their immediate financial independence. You might as well say "If you cannot afford a car for your child apon it's birth, you should have an abortion."
Why? Because you assume that the parents will NEVER be able to afford a car. Should the child grow up, it cannot drive to or from work. Thus the child cannot maintain a job or steady income. This deems the child as inadequate for your societal beliefs.
You think that's ridiculous? It's not unlike what you had suggested.
The same could be said about a variety of things, such as education.

Originally posted by eyespy2
Consider for a moment the images we are contantly confronted with in places like Africa, and other 3rd world countries.

You have seen this? Did you see it on TV or did you witness this first hand? If you saw this first hand, your views would be very different. The things you may see on TV is bias. VERY bias. They will show the worst, and allow you to assume that it is the 'average' condition.
[sarcasm]
I saw the slums of New York City on TV once. I guess that all of America is a Ghetto.
[/sarcasm]
You see where I'm going with this? What you see of the outside world is very limited and bias. If you watched MORE TV from and of third world countries, you would have an entirely different perspective on how things really are.
There is a second point I would like to bring up at this point. Assuming that most of the 3rd world countries ARE as you described, have you, yourself tried to help?
No? Fair enough. But maybe you should not try to come up with a final solution to something that ultimately does not bother you.
Yes? You send a check for $X amount every month? That doesn't make a shred of difference, as you have pointed out.
Even if you were to donate all your money, including any savings, it would not make a significant difference. Plus you yourself will become poor. Would you yourself agree to have yourself sterilized?

Originally posted by eyespy2
There is the genocide of millions in Rowanda, Serbia, the Congo, and Darfur.

Sterilization... selective breeding... Aren't you yourself suggesting genocide?

Originally posted by eyespy2
In Africa, death is almost a blessing, because up to 70% of the population in many countries have AIDS.

I don't know where you got those figures from, but it is greatly exaggerated. But this is not the issue here. Should the ratio of people with AIDS really be as high as you say, then you need not worry, because they will all be dead within the next two to three generations. Secondly, I don't understand why you brought AIDS up. HIV does not discriminate. Lastly, How is death a blessing? The only rights you can claim for death to be a blessing is that of your own, unless stated otherwise. Go for a walk to your local hospital or AIDS clinic if possible. You will notice something that may suprise you. People do not give up and die apon learning that they are dieing. More often than not, the sheer will to live will keep them going long after their forecasted death. Go ask them if they think death is a blessing.

Originally posted by eyespy2
What do you think?

Well let me add the following... Are you suggesting sterilizing all poor? Or just the ones in the third world or developing countries? Where does is the line drawn? Who determines what is considered poor? My idea of 'poor' is obviously very different to yours.

Gear,

You have voted Gear for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Very well put and right on target..

I personally applaud your tenacity and perseverance.. You stand as an example to us all..

Semper

Originally posted by Gear
Oh My!
How did this thread manage to sneak under my radar for so long?

Gear,

I have mad respect for ya simply because you at least came from the continent.

But like you said, this thread did come under your radar, so I assume you didn't feel the need to read most of it before you made your comments.

I'm actually tired of repeating the same things over again. Never said sterilize everyone, but we could begin with many of the 2.5 mill that have been displaced in Darfur.

Like I said previously, no one here has any idea what my personal experience with Africa is, or what I have seen, or where i get my information, and quite frankly, I don't need to explain myself any more than I already have to state my opinion.

Great you pulled yourself up by your boot straps in South Africa, but there are many more opportunities in South Africa, then there are in the desert, with rebels, or goverment forces chasing bent on wiping people off the face of the map.

The genocide of the living is real, not made up or over-exaggerated - actually under-reported. It's under-reported because the world does not give a damn about starving black people, who don't punp oil. Diamonds, please! If they had enough money to afford cell phones, then the world would care.

But starving women with 3-4 starving children are having babies who starve to death, or are murdered, by the hundreds of thousands. You want to keep up with the damage controll, and make the place sound like a haven for opportunity, feel free.

But if you want to call me out, read the damn threads. Half your points, I've already answered to my own satisfation.



[edit on 12-5-2007 by eyespy2]

Yes, eyespy. We should take millions of men, women, and children. Chain them up, tie them to a board, force anaesthesia on them, then cut into their bodies and mutilate their sexual organs.

Good plan.

Gear and Semper. You've said what I've been trying to say all along, hopefully you'll have better luck than I. Both of you have earned WATS from me.

Man does not live by bread alone...

Certain people here have denigrated the spiritual aspect of my, and others, revulsion for the very notion of sterilization. Forced sterilization would damage these people, not only physically, but spiritually as well, rendering them unable to hope for and to strive for that Utopian world that you insist sterilization will lead to, or at least imply that it will lead to.

I'll submit, until I have proof otherwise, that your heart is in the right place, and that you've nothing but good intentions...the road to hell is paved by just those sentiments. Man is not meant to play God, nor should we attempt to. Every time some one has tried to catastrophe has resulted.

The very question "should the poor be sterilized," evokes bad memories when it was applied in the United States. The retarded who were malnourished were the targets. Eventually these monsters from "loving governments," come to more categories. Who would you trust to "sterilize the poor?" Maybe the authors of the Tuskegee experiment would do? Why bother sterilizing them anyway, just have a forcible vaccination campaign with tainted inventory like they already do. 100 per cent dead is dead. That is what depopulation "experts," are already doing under the guise of serving public health. Besides they are poor because of IMF load policies and other kinds of economic strangulation, not their own choice. Do you see poverty among the deep forest people who are not contaminated by money and civilization? Maybe little things like surviving are too difficult for those considering what poverty actually is. Forest people prosper in their own context.

The question itself is disgusting, and the answer is no!

[edit on 12-5-2007 by SkipShipman]

semperfortis "The first and most obvious is the complete revulsion I feel when man contemplates playing God... "

****Revulsion is a learned emotion. I can be eliminated by objectivity.

We (white europeans) introduced various species of plants and animals to foreign lands with disaserous results. Yes, and we also introduced "civilization" to a land that was getting along just fine before we gave them our "help". This however is in no way playing "god". It is playing human.

Gear, exactly why should we make donations to feed Africans?

What is the big deal with some of you who are so fearful of having never been born? Do you honestly believe that you all can just go on procreating indefinitely? Much of Africa is wallowing in its own feces, and they don't seem to much care. Who are we to tell them how to conduct their lives. Leave them to their own devices.
The only way we could really make a difference for them is to show them how to sterilize masses of them. And no food shipments. We already showed them how to do productive farming, but they wanted to do it their way. The land went to waste. So let them perish. The survivors will be much wiser.

Yes, sterilize other than Africans. Africa has been brought up because it has been the subject of much media attention. The situation in India & Pakistan is as bad. Street people live by begging. They mutilate their children to evoke sympathy of tourists who give them money.

Yeah, I would have agreed to be sterilized. I could have had a much more interesting care free sex life.