Should The Poor Be Sterilized

Having read every posted response in this thread I have gotten my blood boiled enough to offer a response of my own.
Coupla points:
1) Africa is not America. Their ideaological values expressed in their political system are not to be compared with a constitutional republic form of democracy. Who are we to tell some other country that they have offended our aesthetic sensibilities to the point that we must now insist they quit reproducing?
2) Africa is rich in natural resources as are many other countries in the world who have a high rate of poverty. The means are there to combat poverty but the management of those resources are ill attended.
3) Why must the WOMAN be sterilized? And why is she a "lazy slut" if she gets pregnant? If men are raping women at such an alarming rate in that country we could send truck loads of rapestop to their country instead of American dollars. In fact, I believe the rapestop product was invented in Africa-just need to distribute it.
4) If anyone in Africa needs to be sterilized it's the men. One man bent on rape can impregnante hundreds of women in the time it takes for one woman to give birth to one child.
5) I have weeds in my yard that I didn't purchase, didn't plant, haven't watered, don't fertilize/mulch, diligently root out every year, thrive even in the drought we had last year and keep coming back in full force and double in number despite my best efforts at eradication. Everything else in my yard burned up in last years' drought but not the weeds. I'm thinking they're more fit to survive. "The poor you have with you always". (notice the same thing is not said of the rich?)
6) Personal note: I'm an American that is poor, lives in a trailer park and has been pregnant 6 times. All 6 pregnancies occured while on some form of 99.9% effective birth control. All my children are healthy despite having been raised on a "poor" diet and having little access to (or need for) health care. All my children are productive, intelligent, good-looking, useful people of good character. None of them were planned but all of them were wanted. I never expected or asked for any "help" from the government in raising them. Who is the more "fit" to survive?

eyespy

You may claim that your not focusing on Africa but your post says otherwise. You obviously had Africa in mind when typing it.

You realize that what your proposing falls under the unbrella of euthanasia...possibly genocide?
You say that "for the sake of pain and suffering of the children" we should sterilize these 3rd world countries mothers. (and fathers)?

For the sake of pain and suffering of the children
So, for that same reason, you would have to agree that if children are already in pain and suffering we should end their lives. For their own good of course. You wouldn't have a problem with this because they shouldn't have been born anyway, so we're actually doing them a favor.
Throw in an executioner with a very liberal sense of what is considered "pain and suffering" and you have the recipe for a holocaust that even Hitler couldn't dream of.

Chissler:

Your points are spot on. The choice of whether to have children is one of the most fundamental aspects of being human. No one should have the power to make that choice for another. Regardless of the reason.

You know, I honestly think the premise of the original question is a misnomer.

I will say it comes from an honorable perspective, though- no child should be forced to suffer. I agree with that 100% and I`ve stated so in other threads. However, it does happen that the children of the wealthy suffer too, so perhaps the misnomer is the focus on income, rather than the very simple reality of the problem, which is NEGLECT.

If a 'parent' (and I use that term in the biological sense only) is so stupid, self-centered, and inconsiderate as to allow their child to go without the necessities of living, regardless of the parent`s income level, that child should be removed from their 'care' and placed in a situation that would allow the child to thrive. Perhaps we should institute a policy of mandatory birth control in cases where a parent has already been convicted of neglecting their child, and if they continue to behave in the same fashion, harming another child, then yes, I agree they should be sterilized. Because every child deserves a loving parent.

Originally posted by eyespy2
Everything you say beyond this, has no relevance to the original thread, which I don't think you read. And if you did, you didn't understand.

Never said everyone in Africa is poor... you know what, I'm not even going to bother responding to this one.

Sure. You just said that Africa is not civilized and the people need to be sterilized. In later posts, you made sure we knew you were talking about Africa primarily.

Don't respond; I wouldn't expect you to. You pretend like you care about the African children, but you really just want to get rid of a bunch of "useless eaters."

@ Eyespye: Congratulations for quite a logical and good idea of ending suffering, not only in Africa!

BUT
1. R U American or from the EU? Then what about human rights?

In Germany we have had some very discusting news on childneglect: The government was talking about compulsary trips to the loacal Doc for everyone, to be able to monitor if someones pregnant and how the child is growing up!
Human rights??? I want my children (if I ever have some) to be homeschoolers (like I was), I don't want the governement telling me as a father what is right or wrong for my children. Checking on them to see, if I'm indoctrinating them in a western way of thinking properly. What if I want to send them to a chinese doc? I might be done for childneglect!?!
(well the prejudice to alternativ medicine has changed a bit)

They talked about a 'child driving license' (translation!), every parent who wants a child has to do a compulsory course!
Human Godgiven rights???
Your Idea would solve a lot of poverty, but wouldn't it be dreadful for all the 'want to be' parents?

2. Have you thought about the fact that within 50 years you would have cleared the african continent of most of the blacks? I didn't read the whole thread, but did any american-black get upset about that idea? (Black = description and not racist)

3. The Problem is not that they don't have the chance to be a very strong nation. They've got enough natural resources, the country (including all the people) could be very wealthy, IF they could sort themselves out and would stop pushing each other down.

4. The only people I would consider castrating is rapists. Why? MANY of them 'just' lose control of themselves. When they're confronted with what they've done they are very sorry, but when they are in the same situation they do it again... (slightly offtopic)

5. If somone is hungry, don't give him a fish, teach him how to fish! (Chinese proverb) We can't send food over there without disbalancing the economy on which you and I live off. But in this case it might be a good idea to go down there, throw the warlords out, get rid of 2 of their 3 currencies, teach the people how to get their economy going AND move back out!
Problems with that:
- It will create chaos on the world economy. (means: nobody would dare to help another global player come up)
- The africans will probably be cheated into selling their resources in very cheap contracts.
- They probably won't be able to take over their economy anyway. (I'll look for a link for this argument and add it here later)

SO: Good idea for a simulation game, terrible when we are talking about human beings.

reg,
Sammy

EDIT: The link I was looking for is in GERMAN:
www.pm-magazin.de...
I can't find a translation. Ethnologist David Signer says, that africas main problem, is envy. When someone starts making money there is always someone else who thinks it their right to take the money. This means the poor 'suffocate' themselves at the bottom. Most of them think it is their RIGHT to get money from people who have it. (similar to people who live off social services and don't want to work)
It is their RIGHT to get aid from the west, because the west has more. It is their RIGHT to get the money off their neighbour, because their neighbour has more.
If the people don't think in a more greedy and capitalist way, they will stay a thirdworld country forever...
I hate capitalism, but Africa (like former east Germany, Russia etc.) proves, that it's the only way.


sry for long post

[edit on 10-5-2007 by Aldolas]

Originally posted by whitewave

5) I have weeds in my yard that I didn't purchase, didn't plant, haven't watered, don't fertilize/mulch, diligently root out every year, thrive even in the drought we had last year and keep coming back in full force and double in number despite my best efforts at eradication. Everything else in my yard burned up in last years' drought but not the weeds. I'm thinking they're more fit to survive. "The poor you have with you always". (notice the same thing is not said of the rich?)

Whitewave, what can I say. That is the best analogy I've heard in a long time. Hope you don't mind if I use it. Would you mind running for president. We need a citizen with a good mind and some honorable character in charge.

[edit on 10-5-2007 by stompk]

Originally posted by whitewave
3) Why must the WOMAN be sterilized? And why is she a "lazy slut" if she gets pregnant? If men are raping women at such an alarming rate in that country we could send truck loads of rapestop to their country instead of American dollars. In fact, I believe the rapestop product was invented in Africa-just need to distribute it.
4) If anyone in Africa needs to be sterilized it's the men. One man bent on rape can impregnante hundreds of women in the time it takes for one woman to give birth to one child.

All my children are productive, intelligent, good-looking, useful people of good character. None of them were planned but all of them were wanted. I never expected or asked for any "help" from the government in raising them. Who is the more "fit" to survive?

First, stop thinking anything can, or will be done about the situation in Africa. No one cares about the black people living there. Every once in a while some celebrities will get together and make a big fuss, and send money that wynds up in the hands of evil leaders who could give a damn. What, you think

George Bush will send troups?

Second, I'm all for sterilizing the men, A.S.A.P. But if you think the good ol' boys club is tight in America, it is completely a man's world on the continent of Africa.

Also, being poor in America is like being middle class in Africa... hell, a homeless person in America can find a banquet in a garbage bin, compared to what the average family in Darfur eats for a year. I have been poor, on the streets, and guess what? I didn't breed or even attempt to breed. Why? BECAUSE I WAS POOR AND DIDN'T HAVE THE MEANS TO RAISE A FAMILY ON THE STREETS!

When I lived in Manhattan, I once watched a homeless guy breeding inside a cardboard tent, pitched on the median strip, 15 feet away as I was sitting in a cab, waiting for the light to turn green. The absolute truth. I know, all you bleeding hearts would have gone to bat for his rights to breed too, huh?

Breeding isn't a right, it is a responsibility! Bringing children in the world, good lord! What is wrong with you people!

Lady, we can afford to be poor and careless in America, cause if things get too bad, social services will come and take the kiddies away and put them in foster care. In many parts of Africa, they just starve to death right before their mother's eyes. No social services. Just armed rebels who would gladly end their lives, or chop a few limbs off just so they can't ever work.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Sure. You just said that Africa is not civilized and the people need to be sterilized. In later posts, you made sure we knew you were talking about Africa primarily.

Don't respond; I wouldn't expect you to. You pretend like you care about the African children, but you really just want to get rid of a bunch of "useless eaters."

Ok, so most of Africa IS uncivilized. They still believe witch doctors can cure AIDS. And they still cut women's clits off, just so they won't enjoy being raped!

And I'm picking on them because they have a habit of murdering millions of people just because they're poor and not muslem. And their leaders, and warlords have a habit of stealing the billions of dollars we send over there instead of feeding the poor with it.

"Pretend to care?" I care about as much as any American will ever care about people who are not white, and don't pump oil in this world.

If I was an African child, I would be pleading with mommy to stop having children. I would say, "Mummy, can you and that man holding the gun to your head stop procreating, or could you ask him to pull out? You see mummy, we have no food, and all you're doing is bringing another "Useless eater" (LOL!!!) "into the world, who will most likely become a rebel and come back here to kill us anyway. That is, if I live till the age of 5.

Only God allows children to be born, not man. I know many who've tried for years to have children without success. Who is poor. People without money, or people without spirit? I say, no more kids for people without spirit.
As for Africa. Their leaders are to blame. Most Africans are peaceful, productive people. We only hear about the genocides and suffering. Why do we feel the need to run over there and fix their problems when we can't even take care of our own? Hows about we set the example, like any good leader should. Got that from leadership 101. Then, when we are in a position to judge, then, we can solve other peoples problems. If your picking on the poor, I submit, you are the poorest.

Originally posted by Aldolas
@ Eyespye: Congratulations for quite a logical and good idea of ending suffering, not only in Africa!

2. Have you thought about the fact that within 50 years you would have cleared the african continent of most of the blacks? I didn't read the whole thread, but did any american-black get upset about that idea? (Black = description and not racist)

[edit on 10-5-2007 by Aldolas]

What do you think they're trying to do there as we speak?

Originally posted by stompk
Only God allows children to be born, not man. I know many who've tried for years to have children without success. Who is poor. People without money, or people without spirit? I say, no more kids for people without spirit.
As for Africa. Their leaders are to blame. Most Africans are peaceful, productive people. We only hear about the genocides and suffering. Why do we feel the need to run over there and fix their problems when we can't even take care of our own? Hows about we set the example, like any good leader should. Got that from leadership 101. Then, when we are in a position to judge, then, we can solve other peoples problems. If your picking on the poor, I submit, you are the poorest.

Excellent response. If you really look at their "ideas" the heart and soul of right wing conservatism is nothing but greed best phrased as I got mine, screw you. What do you think their whining about taxes and the poor are all about but bald faced selfishness. We as a society are only as good as we treat the least among us. For a bunch of people who wear their religion (Christianity usually) on their sleeves they do their best to ignore the uncomfortable teachings of Jesus... such as taking care of the poor.

Originally posted by stompk
Only God allows children to be born, not man.

If your picking on the poor, I submit, you are the poorest.

Human beings make babies, not God. Back in the day, before science, when a woman couldn't get pregnant they attributed to God. Now, because of science we know about stuff like low sperm count, and other problems associated with child birth.

I'm not picking on the poor. The problems in Africa are very specific, and unfortunately revolve around to abuse of the poor. Less children would mean less people to murder.

Originally posted by grover
For a bunch of people who wear their religion (Christianity usually) on their sleeves they do their best to ignore the uncomfortable teachings of Jesus... such as taking care of the poor.

Jesus said nothing about the poor breeding in countries where the murder rate, and infant mortality rates are the highest on any continent on the planet.

It's the so-called religious of the world who hide behind words from books written thousands of years ago, instead of actually realizing that God is not here to get us out of the problems we cause for ourselves.

We could sit here and argue about God and His involvment in this until the end of time (coming soon to a theatre near you). Babies not produced cause of low sperm count? Why do they have low sperm count? And on and on.
eyespy, you seem to think that the reason people in America don't care about Africans is because they are black. Well, where are all there American black brothers. I'll tell you where. Right here, with the rest of us, wondering how we're going to pay rent next month. Now, if none of us had to pay rent, we could probably concentrate on helping others a little more. Maybe you could talk to my landlord and see if they would give me 6 months free rent (I pay $1500 a month, so that would be a $9000 donation) and I'll head over to Africa and hand out condoms.

Originally posted by eyespy2

Originally posted by grover
For a bunch of people who wear their religion (Christianity usually) on their sleeves they do their best to ignore the uncomfortable teachings of Jesus... such as taking care of the poor.

Jesus said nothing about the poor breeding in countries where the murder rate, and infant mortality rates are the highest on any continent on the planet.

It's the so-called religious of the world who hide behind words from books written thousands of years ago, instead of actually realizing that God is not here to get us out of the problems we cause for ourselves.

Ahh but you are willing to play god for them... how charitable of you. And how would you feel if someone showed up at your door and said you were too poor to breed and wanted to cut your gonads off?

[edit on 10-5-2007 by grover]

According to the latest UNICEF report, Nigeria is at the top of the list, with the world’s highest number of malnourished children. Out of 146 million children all over the world, Africa alone houses nearly 73% of them, which also includes Nigeria. Precisely, Nigeria has about 6 million malnourished children.

Link to story

Why is this turning into a religious thing? "God" has nothing to do with it, and having children is not a god given right, it is a privilege that has to be earned. If you can't aford to feed children don't have them, if you can't keep it in your pants, it should be removed.

Tell me what your god has ever done for these kids, have a look at the photo on the page I linked to above and then tell me their is a god. If their is a god he should be shot for the things he has allowed to happen all over the world.

how would you feel if someone showed up at your door and said you were too poor to breed and wanted to cut your gonads off?

That is totally different, for a start you have a front door for someone to arrive at. And if your child was malnourished it would be taken into the care of the state, these kids are dying everyday, no sorry every few seconds. It really is time for the world to grow up and stopped putting there "right to breed" above the well being of the children of the world.

[edit on 10/5/07 by SG-1-9er]

Originally posted by eyespy2I have been poor, on the streets, and guess what? I didn't breed or even attempt to breed. Why? BECAUSE I WAS POOR AND DIDN'T HAVE THE MEANS TO RAISE A FAMILY ON THE STREETS!

Couple of things here, since you raise the points, eyespy. First off, congrats on pulling yourself up outta the murk of poverty. Seeing, though, as you aren't any kind of racist or ellitist, I'm sure that you agree that your policies really should apply to Manhattan too...right? Now, again, just as a what-if?, how about one of Giuliani's bureaucrats comes chasing after you with a pair of snips because he figures your chances for solvency are pretty slim, and he/she figures the world would be better off without any more little eyespies in the gene pool. I guess my question is, would you have stepped up to do your duty as an apparently chronic pauper, or would they have to drag you, kicking and screaming? Really, what procedure do you suggest for your little adventure... orderly line-ups alongside velvet ropes, or are you a backhoe kinda guy?

When I lived in Manhattan, I once watched a homeless guy breeding inside a cardboard tent, pitched on the median strip, 15 feet away as I was sitting in a cab, waiting for the light to turn green.

Oh, and unless you were stealing that cab...you couldn't have been all that poor cuz either you were working or paying for the ride.

You know, nobody is trying to change your mind here...some of us are just holding up a great big mirror to see if you get it. I come from a German background, and I was raised with the question..."How could they let it happen?" Good question, but when I follow threads like this it becomes so very apparent. Happy trails, pal...but don't come cryin' to me when they come lookin' for you, next.

[edit on 10-5-2007 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by stompk
We could sit here and argue about God and His involvment in this until the end of time (coming soon to a theatre near you).

Actually, we wouldn't, because there's nothing to argue about. It works like this, man and woman decide to screw, make love, bang, strump, etc., a baby is born. Or a baby isn't born, because the man has a problem with his johnson, or the woman with her punnani. God is not in controll of your johnson - you are. genetics, diet, too much fiddlin' determine whether or not your johnson is shooting blanks.

Incredible how God get blamed for johnson maintenence.

God is not, in the bedroom cheering for a life to come into the world. And He/She is certainly not in Africa encouraging a starving woman to have another child. Yeah, I know this because!

See most of this bleeding heart nonsense is because a lot of you are religious and believe in what you call your God given rights and all that.

But why is it that every prophet that comes to this place, tells you that this place is not your home? So why would your God want you to bring more spirits into this place, if he keeps trying to convince you not to come back?

And yes, you are pleading for the end of the world aren't you? You're praying to your God for it. "Please God, destroy this evil world just like you promised in the bible!"

And all I'm talking about is what? A million or 2 less babies born on the continenet of Hell just to starve to death? Wow!

Maybe we're still here, because your God is waiting to see if any of you will do anything to save the world from His/Her wrath.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by eyespy2I have been poor, on the streets, and guess what? I didn't breed or even attempt to breed. Why? BECAUSE I WAS POOR AND DIDN'T HAVE THE MEANS TO RAISE A FAMILY ON THE STREETS!

When I lived in Manhattan, I once watched a homeless guy breeding inside a cardboard tent, pitched on the median strip, 15 feet away as I was sitting in a cab, waiting for the light to turn green.

Oh, and unless you were stealing that cab...you couldn't have been all that poor cuz either you were working or paying for the ride.

You know, nobody is trying to change your mind here...some of us are just holding up a great big mirror to see if you get it. I come from a German background, and I was raised with the question..."How could they let it happen?"
[edit on 10-5-2007 by JohnnyCanuck]

Never said I was homeless in Manhattan. But if I was homeless again, I would choose Manhattan.

And, the big mirror you're holding up, what if the face in that mirror was a gaunt, starving child, who's mother already has 4 kids, with another on the way?

God willing, I will never get it!

You think you're being the compassionate one here, when actually your postion is quite evil, and elitist. We have a responsiblity to look after those who can't look after themselves. Makes you sqeemish to imagine the need for ending the reproductive cycle of a woman or man living under the conditions mentioned above?

This world is a much darker place because of the autrocities taking place on the continent of Africa. Soon you will hear the reports of starving people eating those babies who died. Talk to me then.

[edit on 10-5-2007 by eyespy2]

The overbreeding problem can only be solved through education and industrialization. And it will take a minimum of a whole generation to get a handle on it.

And it will be mainly through the efforts of the women that it will be solved, because it is too easy for a man to walk away from a pregnancy.

Crates of condoms sent to Africa go unused because the men consider them an insult to their virility. How can you expect to succeed when those attitudes prevail?

Unfortunately, any sincere effort to change things in Africa is going to involve armed conflict, since much of the continent has been taken over by violent groups. And they are not going to sit around while their little kingdoms are being dismantled in the name of progress.