Can't Believe in Human Evolution From Chimps

reply to post by Heronumber0


You really should at least try to understand evolution before wading in trying to disprove it.

Clearly you don't understand it.

reply to post by dave420


We are all a collection of half-understood concepts dave. But what would you have me understand?

reply to post by Heronumber0


I do not talk about "some" similarities . I talk about 2 chromosomes fusioned into one! Also genes that ARE in monkeys , and we have them too even if not active. We carry genes we do not use - but genes that monkey uses for certain proteins (the one creating the C-vitamin for example) ! Why would the creator make this , just to look like we are from monkeys? If you study genetics , and compare genomes as Darwin expected, you can tell what is coming from what ! It all makes sense this way. Even the blood and the components of the blood are evolved , as expected by Darwin . I guess Evolution is quite clear and supported by evidence . The more we advance in computing and DNA , the more the theory gets backed by the discoveries. But it is still a miracle ! the miracle of the evolution - maybe even greater than the miracle of creation! What is easier - to create a computer, or to create a computer that evolves? this is why I do not understand why Christians are scared of Evolution . Well.. I remember the time when you would be burned by the Church if you would say that the Earth is not flat ! Even in our days, a small minority would still believe it - but this does not change the collected data we have about our Earth .

Originally posted by sty

I do not talk about "some" similarities . I talk about 2 chromosomes fusioned into one! Also genes that ARE in monkeys , and we have them too even if not active. We carry genes we do not use - but genes that monkey uses for certain proteins (the one creating the C-vitamin for example) ! Why would the creator make this , just to look like we are from monkeys? If you study genetics , and compare genomes as Darwin expected, you can tell what is coming from what ! It all makes sense this way. Even the blood and the components of the blood are evolved , as expected by Darwin . I guess Evolution is quite clear and supported by evidence . The more we advance in computing and DNA , the more the theory gets backed by the discoveries. But it is still a miracle ! the miracle of the evolution - maybe even greater than the miracle of creation! What is easier - to create a computer, or to create a computer that evolves? this is why I do not understand why Christians are scared of Evolution . Well.. I remember the time when you would be burned by the Church if you would say that the Earth is not flat ! Even in our days, a small minority would still believe it - but this does not change the collected data we have about our Earth .

Good arguments here but how do we explain 60% of homology between humans and the fruit fly? Well, that means that there are certain genes absolutely necessary for the maintenance of an individual. In the simians that have lost their ability to synthesise vitamin C, there is a specific suborder without the gene. However guinea pigs and some passerine birds have also lost this capability as have humans. What are we to draw from this information?

vit C wiki

Also, I take the point about the presence of apparent gene fusions but if we look at genetic similarities, you will find a significant difference in actual coding genes between the chimp and the human which is significant.

Example

I have no problems in imagining a Creator taking pre-existing materials from the Earth and then creating a quantum consciousness computer for mankind along with the sudden appearance of language which then led to the formation of social gathering and then societies. This would then explain some chromosome fusion events and also the switching off and on of certain genes. To imagine that the uniqueness of humanity comes from blind mutation allied to environmental changes is a bit difficult for me to imagine. Moreover, look at a single cell...the sheer complexity of individual chemical events inside a single cell will show you that there is something driving the chemical reactions within.

That's not the idea. It goes more like this.


BEFORE chimps existed, there was something else. From that something else, over a very long series of changes, many separate varieties developed. Some of them still exist today, and are still slowly changing over time. Two examples would include chimpanzees, and humans.


WE are not from chimps, but chimps and ourselves are from something else a very very long time ago.


Separate branches, but of the same tree.

reply to post by Heronumber0


I guess you could be right in some points. As I said in a previous post , my opinion is that beside blind mutations , there is something else with the evolution . In my understanding , this universe was intentional (see the universal constants ) , was created to host life and not only - it was created to evolve life and conciseness. There are still things to be discovered. My believe is that actually evolution brings mysteries far greater than creation. First , we still do not explain the origin of life. Evolution studies the evolution of life , while the origin of life is still uncertain. Can there be assembled the most basic form of life , using "dead" elements ? Then , what would be the first most basic self-replicating form of "life" ?maybe this is just a formula to be discovered - then life will suddenly be common in the entire Universe as stars and planets. maybe , by knowing the conditions on a certain planet , we will be even able to simulate how the life will evolve on that planet . Well.. at the moment we did none of this , and all we can do is to wonder.
About the similarity between a banana and a human DNA - well, this only proves that they have a common ancestor , or - if created without evolution - then God recycled the code as he created more and more complex forms of life.
This is something very common in the programming world. For example - Java works with "classes" - actually a library of already-made programs that save the time of the programmer. By re-using the classes like a black-box, you can assemble entire programs. regardless if life was created trough evolution or "instant" creation of entire species , it is obvious that massive blocks of code were used and re-used.
My personal opinion - evolution is true , and the universe was designed to evolve after a certain pattern . I would not be surprised to find out that on the other side of the universe are and live well - humans identical to us!

Originally posted by sty
I guess you could be right in some points. As I said in a previous post , my opinion is that beside blind mutations , there is something else with the evolution . In my understanding , this universe was intentional (see the universal constants ) , was created to host life and not only - it was created to evolve life and conciseness. There are still things to be discovered. My believe is that actually evolution brings mysteries far greater than creation.

I have also held this belief for a long period. However, please be careful in giving evolution its due - it denies the existence of a soul or spirit. Where are you if you deny both? This is my main problem because all my arguments then return to faith. Faith does not allow Man to be an animal with more sophisticated thoughts- we are the crowning Glory of God. This is why I mentioned that we have a consciousness which cannot be matched by any computer to date or even in the future. This seems to underline the unique nature of Man. Read some of this stuff :

Quantum Consciousness

First , we still do not explain the origin of life. Evolution studies the evolution of life , while the origin of life is still uncertain. Can there be assembled the most basic form of life , using "dead" elements ? Then , what would be the first most basic self-replicating form of "life" ?maybe this is just a formula to be discovered - then life will suddenly be common in the entire Universe as stars and planets. maybe , by knowing the conditions on a certain planet , we will be even able to simulate how the life will evolve on that planet . Well.. at the moment we did none of this , and all we can do is to wonder.

I think this is called abiogenesis. I agree that the Antropic Principple points to the amazing finely balanced constants that set the conditions for the Universe. Link to Anthropic Principle
However, if Man is not unique, then Apostles will have to be sent to other Galaxies t save those individuals. Did you think of that?

This is something very common in the programming world. For example - Java works with "classes" - actually a library of already-made programs that save the time of the programmer. By re-using the classes like a black-box, you can assemble entire programs. regardless if life was created trough evolution or "instant" creation of entire species , it is obvious that massive blocks of code were used and re-used.
My personal opinion - evolution is true , and the universe was designed to evolve after a certain pattern . I would not be surprised to find out that on the other side of the universe are and live well - humans identical to us!

Now, this is very interesting. If your opinion is true and the human genome (i.e. all the genes that make an organism) are arranged in 'modules' or 'blocks' and rearranged this could be a way to explain the sheer variety of Nature - something that eluded the best scientists and philosophers such as Hegel. However, beware! Evolution cannot explain or wishes to explain the presence of a soul or Spirit.


Back to complexity, friend, Evolution struggles to explain the sheer complexity of life. Even the action of detecting a single photon involves an amazing series of biochemical reactions. Understand that the retinal pigment that detecs the light has to be regenerated to detect more light. This involves energy compounds. Yes, guesses can be made about the mechanisms but you would have to have an extremely high number of mutation/selection events to have all the necessary proteins in place to detect light. And this is just one mechanism....

List of (wiki) proteins involved in light detection


[edit on 15/4/2008 by Heronumber0]

I guess you could be right in some points. As I said in a previous post , my opinion is that beside blind mutations , there is something else with the evolution . In my understanding , this universe was intentional (see the universal constants ) , was created to host life and not only - it was created to evolve life and conciseness. There are still things to be discovered. My believe is that actually evolution brings mysteries far greater than creation.

I have also held this belief for a long period. However, please be careful in giving evolution its due - it denies the existence of a soul or spirit. Where are you if you deny both? This is my main problem because all my arguments then return to faith. Faith does not allow Man to be an animal with more sophisticated thoughts- we are the crowning Glory of God. This is why I mentioned that we have a consciousness which cannot be matched by any computer to date or even in the future. This seems to underline the unique nature of Man. Read some of this stuff :

Quantum Consciousness

First , we still do not explain the origin of life. Evolution studies the evolution of life , while the origin of life is still uncertain. Can there be assembled the most basic form of life , using "dead" elements ? Then , what would be the first most basic self-replicating form of "life" ?maybe this is just a formula to be discovered - then life will suddenly be common in the entire Universe as stars and planets. maybe , by knowing the conditions on a certain planet , we will be even able to simulate how the life will evolve on that planet . Well.. at the moment we did none of this , and all we can do is to wonder.

I think this is called abiogenesis. I agree that the Antropic Principple points to the amazing finely balanced constants that set the conditions for the Universe. Link to Anthropic Principle
However, if Man is not unique, then Apostles will have to be sent to other Galaxies t save those individuals. Did you think of that?

This is something very common in the programming world. For example - Java works with "classes" - actually a library of already-made programs that save the time of the programmer. By re-using the classes like a black-box, you can assemble entire programs. regardless if life was created trough evolution or "instant" creation of entire species , it is obvious that massive blocks of code were used and re-used.
My personal opinion - evolution is true , and the universe was designed to evolve after a certain pattern . I would not be surprised to find out that on the other side of the universe are and live well - humans identical to us!

Now, this is very interesting. If your opinion is true and the human genome (i.e. all the genes that make an organism) are arranged in 'modules' or 'blocks' and rearranged this could be a way to explain the sheer variety of Nature - something that eluded the best scientists and philosophers such as Hegel. However, beware! Evolution cannot explain or wishes to explain the presence of a soul or Spirit.


Back to complexity, friend, Evolution struggles to explain the sheer complexity of life. Even the action of detecting a single photon involves an amazing series of biochemical reactions. Understand that the retinal pigment that detecs the light has to be regenerated to detect more light. This involves energy compounds. Yes, guesses can be made about the mechanisms but you would have to have an extremely high number of mutation/selection events to have all the necessary proteins in place to detect light. And this is just one mechanism....

List of (wiki) proteins involved in light detection

I guess you could be right in some points. As I said in a previous post , my opinion is that beside blind mutations , there is something else with the evolution . In my understanding , this universe was intentional (see the universal constants ) , was created to host life and not only - it was created to evolve life and conciseness. There are still things to be discovered. My believe is that actually evolution brings mysteries far greater than creation.

I have also held this belief for a long period. However, please be careful in giving evolution its due - it denies the existence of a soul or spirit. Where are you if you deny both? This is my main problem because all my arguments then return to faith. Faith does not allow Man to be an animal with more sophisticated thoughts- we are the crowning Glory of God. This is why I mentioned that we have a consciousness which cannot be matched by any computer to date or even in the future. This seems to underline the unique nature of Man. Read some of this stuff :

Quantum Consciousness

First , we still do not explain the origin of life. Evolution studies the evolution of life , while the origin of life is still uncertain. Can there be assembled the most basic form of life , using "dead" elements ? Then , what would be the first most basic self-replicating form of "life" ?maybe this is just a formula to be discovered - then life will suddenly be common in the entire Universe as stars and planets. maybe , by knowing the conditions on a certain planet , we will be even able to simulate how the life will evolve on that planet . Well.. at the moment we did none of this , and all we can do is to wonder.

I think this is called abiogenesis. I agree that the Antropic Principple points to the amazing finely balanced constants that set the conditions for the Universe. Link to Anthropic Principle
However, if Man is not unique, then Apostles will have to be sent to other Galaxies t save those individuals. Did you think of that?

This is something very common in the programming world. For example - Java works with "classes" - actually a library of already-made programs that save the time of the programmer. By re-using the classes like a black-box, you can assemble entire programs. regardless if life was created trough evolution or "instant" creation of entire species , it is obvious that massive blocks of code were used and re-used.
My personal opinion - evolution is true , and the universe was designed to evolve after a certain pattern . I would not be surprised to find out that on the other side of the universe are and live well - humans identical to us!

Now, this is very interesting. If your opinion is true and the human genome (i.e. all the genes that make an organism) are arranged in 'modules' or 'blocks' and rearranged this could be a way to explain the sheer variety of Nature - something that eluded the best scientists and philosophers such as Hegel. However, beware! Evolution cannot explain or wishes to explain the presence of a soul or Spirit.


Back to complexity, friend, Evolution struggles to explain the sheer complexity of life. Even the action of detecting a single photon involves an amazing series of biochemical reactions. Understand that the retinal pigment that detecs the light has to be regenerated to detect more light. This involves energy compounds. Yes, guesses can be made about the mechanisms but you would have to have an extremely high number of mutation/selection events to have all the necessary proteins in place to detect light. And this is just one mechanism....

List of (wiki) proteins involved in light detection

Posted by Heronumber0

I am here to learn - as are we all.

Science is about learning, Religion isn't.

Creationism/ID is not science because in science it is the evidence and observations that determine the conclusion.

Creationism is backwards. It has pre-determined the conclusion: God did it, absolutely, period.

Any evidence that contradicts the Genesis account is discarded or ignored if not interpreted to fit the conclusion.

How are you going to learn from that ? the conclusion you've already taken before you started investigating this?

the fact that you make a thread with such a ignorant title is indication enough that you indeed have much to learn.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by XyZeR]

[edit on 15-4-2008 by XyZeR]

reply to post by Heronumber0

Apes and Humans

So we have found that none of these early relatives of man were relatives at all. In fact, the Biblical story of Adam and Eve created in a perfect world in all it's primaeval grandeur is a much more fascinating (and scientific) story than the fantastic claim that man descended from some rodent scurrying around dodging dinosaur feet. Based on recent biochemical analysis of the mitochondrial DNA in human cells and calculations of population genetics, scientists have discovered that all modern humans come from one single female, and they have called her "Eve." (The Search For Eve, By Brown, 1990).

I agree Hero, (from what I understand of what you wrote.)


Why do so many people STILL believe in the piltdown man, Nebraska man.
Feathered dinosaur, The falsified Horse evolution chart and peppered moths,
Archaeopteryx,
Darwinism Refuted
Even geese have teeth;



The Tiktallic is less of a transitional than a mudskipper, IMHO;



A good example of the fallacial evolution is found here.
Book kills walking fish

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Clearskies]

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Clearskies]

To those who don't believe in evolution:

How do you propose that bacteria and viruses change?

Why can we not get immunity from the common cold?

Why do insects gradually become immune to insecticide?

Why is tuberculosis becoming harder to kill?

Why do we have different species of one animal that seems to be well adapted to it's environment? Environments change so animals would have to change to.

Why are the different finches on the different Galapagos islands, well, different?

Why do people have different skin colours? As you can see the closer people live to the equator the darker their skin becomes. However people haven't lived in one place forever they migrate. So how did their skin colour change? It's bad to be white skinned near the equator, and bad to be dark skinned further away from it (unhealthy in both cases).

Lighter people near the equator have higher amounts of skin cancer and less folic acid. Darker skinned people further away from the equator suffer more from rickets. All three of these afflictions have to do with sun light.

reply to post by monkey_descendant


Let me give you their response:

God did it!

It's easy to debate when you don't feel the need to use logic! This Christianity lark makes using your brain much easier. Just switch it off, read from a book, and you're set!

Or you could say

"evolution did it!"

But, that would be

reply to post by Clearskies


Well, all the evidence science has collected seems to say you and your bronze-age "Not Being Scared of the Sun for Dummies" book are both wrong.

How come science can be so right in creating the computer you're currently looking at, the medicine that keeps you alive, your cars, and every single thing in your life, yet is wrong about evolution, even when they were both derrived using the exact same methodologies of observation, experimentation, and analysis?

Either God is being a not-very-nice-person-indeed*, or you're wrong. You can't have it both ways.

* Pre-emptive edit to not get warned

reply to post by dave420


Sorry for the triple post folks. hope my computer has recovered.


C'mon Dave, this is a Forum for reasonable and civil debate. Can Science answer how humans 'suddenly'acquired - no!

Can Science answer why so many apparently dead species are still alive today - no!

Can Science explain why bacteria can undergo high mutation rates under the correct stresses and still remain bacteria - no!

Can Science actually find all the millions of 'intermediate' species that should theoretically exist - no!

Look, I was well on the way to believing in an Act of Creation starting with the setting of initial conditions in the Universe and subsequent evolution to naturally make us all within God's Plan and Law. However the evolutionists will not let us have the idea of a Divine soul within us. they relegate us to the status of 'slightly brighter' animals and at this point I cannot agree with the complete evolution story.

Dave Please don't mock people's religions - we can come to a reasoned disagreement but not swapping insults with each other.

reply to post by Clearskies


i'm not going to bother directly addressing the things you posted, because they're just the same talking points i've addressed ad nauseum

just go here

www.talkorigins.org...

www.talkorigins.org...

and there's evidence there. plenty of it. evolution is scientific fact, learn to accept it and move on.

Originally posted by Heronumber0
C'mon Dave, this is a Forum for reasonable and civil debate. Can Science answer how humans 'suddenly'acquired - no!

not sure what you mean so i'll just say...
"maybe?"

Can Science answer why so many apparently dead species are still alive today - no!

yes, they can.
it's quite the simple answer: we didn't find them until recently and we were wrong about them being dead. they found a niche and exploited it.

Can Science explain why bacteria can undergo high mutation rates under the correct stresses and still remain bacteria - no!

actually, they can...but i'm not properly informed enough nor to address this point. i also don't have the time to dig for the sources to explain this to you, so just hold a pause on that "no"

Can Science actually find all the millions of 'intermediate' species that should theoretically exist - no!

yes, it may take a while, but we're finding new transitional forms all the time

However the evolutionists will not let us have the idea of a Divine soul within us.

say what?
evolutionist =/= atheist

there are plenty of people that accept evolutionary theory and still have religious beliefs.

they relegate us to the status of 'slightly brighter' animals and at this point I cannot agree with the complete evolution story.

well...that's actually not the evolution story, that's simple modern biology.

There is not evidence that we evolved from apes.
The finding of similar creatures that lived in times past is not proof that one became the other.
There is no proof that one species ever turned into another.

Why exactly does anyone think that humans are superior to apes?
We are inevery way inferior.
"Oh" you say," but we are intelligent."
How does that make us superior? Ego/Vanity? Humans are cruel joke they played on themselves.

Yes everything has a common ancestor. IT is called "the elements". All 144 of them. Yes, I know that scientists have not found them all. Perhaps they will not find them all on Earth. But they seem to find it logical that there are 144 of them. And they are as alive as anything you view as alive. You just cannot see them and the vibrant life they have in their microcosm. This is the same 144 described in various writings as 144,000.

Heron, you seem to not understand that you/your consciousness is the creator of your body. It is really consciousness that is the big mystery. You mention "soul & spirit" which is simply your consciouness. Why must you think there is anything "divine" about it?

For those who take their creation belief from the bible, they should re-read it.
Consider that there was already a man upon the Earth. And the god said,"Let US make man in our image..."
In one of the older versions of this text ti read "let us RE-MAKE man in OUR image...."
Further...It goes on to say, "be fruitful and multiply, AND REPLENISH the Earth."

How do you explain that? Replenish the Earth...There was man here before. Now he has been re-made. His genes and DNA have been rearranged by these gods/extra terrestrials who from heavan to Earth came.
That is why we have DNA or genes that are not being used.


Go here for an interesting interview:

INTERVIEW 1

INTERVIEW 2


[edit on 16-4-2008 by OhZone]

reply to post by OhZone


I guess we would go in shaky grounds if we want to talk about the origin of the consciousness. Let us focus on our biological body that can be analyzed and studied with empirical methods.