The Growing White House Email Conspiracy

Originally posted by Stormrider

Loam,
Judging by your post, I'm thinking you were speaking in jest or sarcasm, but just in case you weren't: The NSA is not chartered for domestic surveillance; as for Telecoms, it would depend on which or any telecom servers were involved. If these emails were sent with the intent of never being recovered, I would doubt they would use public or even privately held telecom servers.

Your correct that the NSA's charter does not involve domestic surveillance however when has that ever been strictly adhered to. Granted with 9/11 Bush has authorized domestic spying by the NSA for matters that deal with terrorism but thats just a cozy front. It's been discussed many times here on ATS that the NSA does not have the capability to either retrieve or store domestic chatter. I disagree. The NSA is partly in the business to retrieve, store and analyze volumes of data. With email the majority is text based and therefore can be compressed to a high degree. Based on this I have no doubts that this and any other email is readily intercepted and available.

Added to which we have past events to show that the NSA is in bed with the telecomm industry (Project Minaret, Project Shamrock, ThinThread to name a few).

I agree with your last point thought. The details of how private the networks in question were makes it difficult to speculate on what did and did not traverse other networks.

src:arstechnica.com...
src: www.usatoday.com...

Project Shamrock: en.wikipedia.org...
Project Minaret: en.wikipedia.org...
Thinthread: en.wikipedia.org...

brill

Originally posted by kleverone
This is unbelievable! How can they get away with this? I to have comeplety lost faith in the Head of our government. Rove is evil in my opinion, he has ulterior motives.

He aint the only evil in Washington. Caca rolls uphill in Washington- it defies gravity.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Clearly, there was an anticipation that these staffers would engage in exchanges that must not be discovered. The use of private computers and email systems indicates a premeditated intent to facilitate a communications method that could "disappear" if needed.

Apparently, it just demonstrates that they were trying to follow the law. The Hatch Act requires that any political activity not occur on government-owned computers, servers, accounts, etc.

As anyone who has multiple phone numbers, e-mail addresses, beepers, and all should know, sometimes you get various communications from people through the different channels than they were originally meant for (business/personal for example).

Still, there's no proof of anything here, it's just a fishing expedition.

[edit on 4/14/2007 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Apparently, it just demonstrates that they were trying to follow the law. The Hatch Act requires that any political activity not occur on government-owned computers, servers, accounts, etc.

There are now thousands of articles on this issue, some of the early pieces (which I'm having trouble locating) indicated that there were indeed "official" business email exchanges that involved cross-domain traffic from the gop.org or gwb43.org domains to official email domains. This is the reason these emails were originally sought out during the Valerie Plame investigations, and asked for in this investigation.

These days, most organizations operate as if they need to comply with Sarbanes Oxley requirements. It's good business and covers many collective "asses". There is no good reason to create a system that automatically deletes emails every 30 days (as the servers used in this issue have been described), or to delete emails from servers unless those in charge desire to eliminate the trail.


But one potential issue emerges here that leads me to believe nothing will ever come of this... as Justin pointed out, I'm certain the use of "off-channel" systems are used by many high-level insiders across both parties. If this issue were fully investigated and prosecuted, the Democrats would have to either tolerate a similar investigation, or completely give-up such off-channel options form this point forward. Both are highly improbable situations. The only hope for a full examination is for a Watergate-style journalistic investigation complete with lower-level whistle-blowers.

I don't mean to side track, but I was once one of the whistleblowers you would like to hear from. The amount of support I got for my efforts wouldn't fill a shot glass. I'm jaded, yes. People talk big about how they want whistleblowers, but they don't make a move to help them when those people step up. It's a bit like having a cheese grater used on you. You can hardly believe htat you volunteered for it. You're not going to get the whistleblowers you want in this case. People at that level of government know better. It's a career killer, and they know it. when you ask people to drag this kind of thing in to the light of day, you are asking them to self-destruct.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Apparently, it just demonstrates that they were trying to follow the law. The Hatch Act requires that any political activity not occur on government-owned computers, servers, accounts, etc.

But one potential issue emerges here that leads me to believe nothing will ever come of this... as Justin pointed out, I'm certain the use of "off-channel" systems are used by many high-level insiders across both parties. If this issue were fully investigated and prosecuted, the Democrats would have to either tolerate a similar investigation, or completely give-up such off-channel options form this point forward. Both are highly improbable situations. The only hope for a full examination is for a Watergate-style journalistic investigation complete with lower-level whistle-blowers.

Why am I not at all surprised by this?

It's a major scandal, but for years I've been calling them the scandal du jour, and it comes on the heels of so many others you'd thought would have blown Washington apart, and which just fade after a few weeks.

But really this one was inevitable, as it flows directly from the Bushco obsession with secrecy and the politicization of policy, and of course KR is at the center of it--4 years of missing e-mail! Typical in its blatant disregard even for pretending to follow the law.

Of course in one sense, as djohnsto77 reasons, this was political e-mail, but only because everything KR and the WH does is political, not policy driven.

One has to hope the Dems will push hard on this; even though they doubtless played the same game, having been the party in the wilderness during the Bush presidency, they will have much less to fear by pushing to investigate this. If you're not the party in power, by definition your own e--mails are going to be more about political strategy, not about actual policy.

But I fear they'll just follow their typical MO, make some noise in front of the cameras and then fold when it comes time to make a principled stand. My only hope is Leahy, that he turns his anger and indignation into a real investigation.

[clean-up]

[edit on 14-4-2007 by gottago]

For a good background on how email preservation, legal cases and laws come down the pipeline, read this interesting article from RLG DigiNews from April 2006. scroll down to the FAQ header and read this:

You've Got Mail—Now What? Regulatory & Policy Dilemmas in Email Management
Part I: US Federal Environment

The recent dramatic surge in usage and the ever-changing legal and technological landscape around it has placed email at the center of controversy and scandal in recent years.

In profiling some real cases, it becomes evident that improper management of email messages can cause organizations a great deal of trouble. Consider a few recent examples from the corporate and government arenas:

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

But one potential issue emerges here that leads me to believe nothing will ever come of this... as Justin pointed out, I'm certain the use of "off-channel" systems are used by many high-level insiders across both parties. If this issue were fully investigated and prosecuted, the Democrats would have to either tolerate a similar investigation, or completely give-up such off-channel options form this point forward. Both are highly improbable situations. The only hope for a full examination is for a Watergate-style journalistic investigation complete with lower-level whistle-blowers.

Skeptic,

I am not so sure about that. I think with all the disgruntled and disillusioned individuals these day amongst the parties, we may have group of people that rise to the occasion and spill the beans.

There are more people these days doing what they know in there hearts to be the right thing. It makes me sick to my stomach to see elected officials, that are supposed to represent the people, break the laws they spend millions to write and pass.

I am thinking the parties will collaborate and find a couple of lambs to sacrifice.

Has anyone read 'A Culture of Secrecy: The Government Versus the People's Right to Know'? Its hard going but basically it details the efforts by some groups to obtain access to documents in the US using FOIA. It is almost common policy for administration to 'purge' their records - the whole Oliver North episode is testament to that. I'm not sure whether it was the last Bush or the Clinton administration they tried to prevent the e-mail records being deleted under the FOIA.

That Bush and his cronies circumvented this by using their own network does not surprise me. It only goes to demonstrate that they learn by their mistakes and they're not going to make the same one again. Some insignificant official will be thrown to the wolves and that'll be the end of it, until the next time.

We know that illegal decisions have been made in the Bush administration, we don't know the full extent and since they destroy everything, leaving no paper-trail (lesson learnt Nixon era), we will probably never know for sure.

Aint life a peach.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I don't mean to side track, but I was once one of the whistleblowers you would like to hear from. The amount of support I got for my efforts wouldn't fill a shot glass. I'm jaded, yes. People talk big about how they want whistleblowers, but they don't make a move to help them when those people step up. It's a bit like having a cheese grater used on you. You can hardly believe htat you volunteered for it. You're not going to get the whistleblowers you want in this case. People at that level of government know better. It's a career killer, and they know it. when you ask people to drag this kind of thing in to the light of day, you are asking them to self-destruct.

Good point, Justin. But what if a group of a dozen or more government employees were to come forward and make full disclosure of all the unethical and illegal activities occuring at the Administration level? They say there is safety in numbers, right? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

Still, I'm optimistic; I guess I believe, on some level, that there are moral and ethical people (though not many) still working in our government today who can not, as a matter of conscience, stand back and do nothing. Then again, I may be totally off base but I have to have some hope in the future or I would just give up.

Well, I havent seen this anywhere else, nor have I seen this in any major news groups. So, I say that I don't really know what to believe or if this is true or not.

REGARDLESS, missing emails is not a conspiracy. Even the white house may miss some emails even though it may be intentional or it may be uninentional, people forget stuff, and they miss out on things because they don't have an email.

However, if you erased four years of something, then that's a conspiracy, or they are ignoring Roves.

>_>.

Missing e-mails is a conspiracy as well as a crime. Its a coverup not unlike missing tapes from the Nixon era.

OR DID BUSH CHANGE THE LAW to suit HIM????? Now that could be, since his "advisors" seem to be the ones with some brain matter in Washington!

I have a prediction: Bush & Co. WILL be forced out of office the latest by September of THIS year. Never mind Pelosis' lame promises- His own party wants him OUT.

End of story.

Originally posted by Maverickhunter
Well, I havent seen this anywhere else, nor have I seen this in any major news groups. So, I say that I don't really know what to believe or if this is true or not.

REGARDLESS, missing emails is not a conspiracy. Even the white house may miss some emails even though it may be intentional or it may be uninentional, people forget stuff, and they miss out on things because they don't have an email.

>_>.

It's been all over CNN.....for several days.

Here's some more links......

REMOVED QUOTE OF ENTIRE PREVIOUS POST
Noticing an increase in large quotes in thread replies


Then, forgive me for being ignorant to the mainstream mass media :|. I haven't listened to other news besides the ones on ATS in ages.


[edit on 14-4-2007 by SkepticOverlord]

Let Bush and Co be removed from office. Exactly what will this prove in the United States? They won't be prosecuted for any crimes worth imprisonment for more than 5 months. 9/11 took 411 days after the event to be investigated by a commission appointed by this president. Do you think a few million emails is anything substantial. In the history of the United States, we've learned that it's leaders and individuals responsible for and supporting some of the most heinou crimes in history have walk away scott free.

Luxifero

Originally posted by Stormrider
Good point, Justin. But what if a group of a dozen or more government employees were to come forward and make full disclosure of all the unethical and illegal activities occuring at the Administration level? They say there is safety in numbers, right? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

I've actually had Federal employees in different parts of the country "reach out" to me for guidance on this matter. I'll tell you what I tell them.

A lot of people want so very much for the honest civil servants to come forward. Trouble is, there is no way for those idealist citizens to protect the people who would be the whistleblowers. So, they've got to protect themselves.

I've heard a lot of people say some very convincing things in an effort to sweet-talk Federal workers in to coming forward. The reality is that...when you do this...you're asking them to end their careers. What we as the voters should be saying might go something like this. "If somebody would anonnymously leak what we need to know, it could be investigated for truthfulness and THAT would allow us to get to the bottom of certain things."

The best way to protect yourself in this kind of situation is to arrange an anonnymous leak. If you are a civil servant, and you don't want to burn your resume and start all over again (which I have done), you've got to plan a little conspiracy action of your own.

If it's not on paper, you can't prove it. That's the rule when it comes to the courts and whistleblowing. Yeah, sure. You can make audio recordings, but they won't be admissable in court. The media would like to have them, but a judge will throw them out. If it were to happen "somehow" that the right people got their hands on hard copy proof of wrong-doing...."they" (whoever they are) would have something to investigate with the leaker being forced to ruin their lives.

Let's be clear on one thing. If a civil servant gets caught leaking anything that is in the least bit sensetive, they will go to jail. Those of you who are over fourty might know who Daniel Elsberg is/was. If you don't know what that is/was, google it along with the search phrase "pentagon papers." In today's world, I might actually hatch my own little conspiracy to leak. It might very well look like the one you see in my published work. I'm not saying that I have advocated for such a thing in my published work...but...you could read it that way...if you chose to.

If you're not cut out to be a conspirator, you could always go fishing with FOIA. I'm not saying that my published work tells you how to do that, which would be skirting the law if I did, but you could get the idea if you chose to do so.

There are other options which border on espionage, but I won't say too much about them at this time.

Justin Oldham,

It's a comfort to know that someone like you exists in all of this absolute corruption. It's sad that people will choose to sell there souls and watch illegal activities transpire, but put those same people in a jury and they will convict a man and send him to jail for less, then what they see day to day.

You are an inspiration and it's people like you that restore my faith in humanity.


RT

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I've actually had Federal employees in different parts of the country "reach out" to me for guidance on this matter. I'll tell you what I tell them.

A lot of people want so very much for the honest civil servants to come forward. Trouble is, there is no way for those idealist citizens to protect the people who would be the whistleblowers. So, they've got to protect themselves.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Realtruth]

Thanks forteh kind words. It's taken me a long time to re-invent. If we're going to change the culture, we've got to change the conservation. That means taking certain risks which may run counter to instinct. I could've gone to work as a drone in sombody's office after my defeat. If had done that, we wouldn't be having the conversation.

It's been a long road to make it this this far. Much of it has been very un-glamorous. But, that's what you do. Even when nobody's looking, you push. A lot of people have made the assumpt that what you see of me has come easily. It hasn't. Yes, I look good on Google, but all of that has been years in the making.

The off-site comms and other tactical patterns which are in common use today have themselves taken years to evolve in to what we are talking about now. In the years to come, as technologies change, politicians and bureaucrats on the take will find new and more efficient ways to get around the rules.

It's no accident that Senators and Representatives maintain off-site offices. Everything associated with that is paid for by cleansed money that would stand up to any legal purity test. The cheap and disposable cell phones that don't leave behind any call records are favorite toys for lobbyists and politicos alike. One would suspect that quite a few wireless transmissions could be snatched out of the air and decruypted...if a person had a mind to do so. It's done by the kids at Langley all the time. It's what they call reading other people's mail.

Yes, that does bring us to the matter of government espionage, but that's another conversation. There are some things about THAT which you might not want to know.

All of you make excellent points.

My point is that this doesn't necessarily point to wrongdoing. The existance of e-mail addresses and communication via non-government controlled means is actually required by law, so you can't say it was meant to violate or skirt laws.

At this point, I'm sure that the only thing that exists is an apparent possibility of impropriety, but that situation was actually required by the laws that are at best unclear or at worst totally self-contradictory.

The minimum that should come out of this is should be a change in law to allow (or mandate) that high level political conversation that of course happens in the West Wing to be conducted using government equipment that can monitor and save the communications.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The minimum that should come out of this is should be a change in law to allow (or mandate) that high level political conversation that of course happens in the West Wing to be conducted using government equipment that can monitor and save the communications.

From what I've been reading on this issue, that is the law... and that's the important point here.

The other important point is that high level policy information was discussed in emails that were exchanged through non-government servers. Who has access to those servers? If they are so poorly designed that a user can delete emails off the server, how secure are they?