Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

Michael, what part of "ATS is for the POLITE discussion of alternative topics" don't you get?

One more off color remark and it's curtains for you and this thread.

Springer...

Okay, it's your opportunity to criticize another person who simply knows more than you do and to show that YOU'RE the real expert...NOT him. Ready?

Marcel Vogel: Research chemist for IBM for twenty-two years, held thirty-two patents, and invented the magnetic disk coating memory system still used in IBM disk memories. A specialist in the conversion of energy inside crystals, Vogel probed crystalline structures with the most complete optical microscopic equipment available in the world - a system of scanning electron microscopes costing $250,000 (expensive in those days!). In 1979, Lieut. Col. Wendelle Stevens, USAF (Ret.), one of the original investigators in the Meier case, sent Vogel crystals and metal samples Meier had received from the Plejarens. Vogel reported, ”When I touched the oxide with a stainless steel probe, red streaks appeared and the oxide coating disappeared. I just touched the metal like that, and it started to deoxidize and become a pure metal. I have never seen a phenomenon like that before.”

Of another metal sample containing nearly every element in the periodic table, Vogel stated, “Each pure element was bonded to each of the others, yet somehow retained its own identity.” X-ray diffraction and spectral analysis revealed both Thulium and Rhenium. “Thulium exists only in minute amounts. It is exceedingly expensive, far beyond platinum, and rare to come by. Someone would have to have an extensive metallurgical knowledge even to be aware of a composition of this type", said Vogel. At 1600 X Vogel said, "A whole new world appears in the specimen. There are structures within structures - very unusual." At 2500 X he found that the sample was, “metal, but at the same time ... it is crystal!"

Vogel put the full weight of his expertise in these summary comments: "With any technology that I know of, we could not achieve this on this planet! I could not put it together myself, as a scientist... And I think it is important that those of us who are in the scientific world sit down and do some serious study on these things instead of putting it off as people's imagination." Again, here is another top-level scientific specialist who is unable to duplicate the material presented to him by Meier.

Now, to make sure that you have enough information to really tell this wannabe a thing or two, I'll post a little more, drawn form the 1,300+ pages of the investigation reports, in my next post!:

Alrightie! So here's a little more of what Vogel discovered when he examined the metal - I mean the plastic from the garbage can lid:

"He (Vogel) found first that one face of the micro-specimen examined at 500 diameters magnification bore evidence of the mechanical micro-machining, probably with a laser. Looking at the piece by x-ray diffraction, for elemental analysis, he found a single element deposit of Thulium (Tm, Atomic Number 69, Atomic Weight 168.934), a rare transition element in the Lanthide series, and also of Rhenium (Re, Atomic Number 75, Atomic Weight 186.2), another rare metal. Thulium usually exists only in a transition state in modern Earth technology. He also found traces of Bromine and Argon gases alloyed in the metal.

One face of the Thulium showed evidence of micromachining. Looking at that part spectrographically, the Thulium, remarkably, showed only the primary band spike for that element – no secondary bands existed. All of the elements examined spectrographically had missing bands in their spectrums which should have been there if they were normal atomic spectra. This indicates that the elements are put together in a very unusual way from normal Earth technology. The spectrographic bands are entirely different, beyond what one would consider an isotope. The bands showed a very high elemental purity and no secondary bands and no catalyst. Most of the elements studied showed the same un-Earthly characteristics. Basically this indicated a non-electrical cold fusion process of synthesis because there was no ash and no heat residue. Such a process is not known to Earth technology at this time. An elemental Aluminum state of similar purity was also noted, as well as the same for Silver."

Okay, kids, hang up your UFO models, put away those guitar amps and let's see you kick some serious scientific butt!

do you have a scientific explanation for the broken ufo? For every scientist corroborating your "claims" there seems to be one debunking it. Photos, videos, dinosaur drawings, what have you.

Show me the scientific data explaining the broken headlight on your space hoopty.

Mr.Vogel is dead. so very hard to ask him more questions..Is there anything written about who, how and when this sample was send?

Edit: BTW, is it just coincidence that www.vogelcrystals.net... at the bottom, Rummi Da has a similar beard as Billy Meier?



[edit on 4/5/2007 by Cygnific]

[edit on 4/5/2007 by Cygnific]

What, this Marcel Vogel:

"Marcel retired and created his own laboratory, Psychic Research, Inc. The lab was dedicated to the study of subtle forces and energies that radiate from the body of living forms. It was his intent to quantify these forces and build a systematic language of identification for these energies which have most often been labeled and dismissed as “metaphysical”.

www.vogelcrystals.net...

Yes, excellent source Michael.

I saw the video, here. Your micro sample looks like a lump of solder to me. How did Billy come by such a small piece of metal? Why was it encased in a plastic block in Switzerland?

Sorry Michael, but IBM or no. He's a fringe figure at best.

He can have a 1000 patents, doesn't mean he has something in his sleave. Why are Dr.Vogel, Rumi Da linked with Billy Meier? You have a good explanation for that? Did they all saw the light and thought they make a nice business?



[edit on 4/5/2007 by Cygnific]

There's a saying that is ubiquitous in the Meier material, "truth is harsh". And nowhere is that more in evidence than in our society, and in microcosmic manifestations of it such as forums like this. What is allowed, even encouraged here, is the kind of low brow attack mode that when directly responded to at all results in the referee coming in warning that one's supposed to keep one hand tied behind their back...a fitting analogy, considering the topic...or be banned from the game.

The word wimpy is of course appropriate to use here, banned or not.

Actually, this isn't so much a complaint but a description. If it was a complaint I wouldn't be playing here with the neighborhood bullies or, to be more accurate, conducting classes, albeit for a relatively small student body capable of, and interested in learning. And for the interested observers, who remain mostly quietly present, it's easy to see the stark, glaring similarities to our school rooms today, certainly in the U.S. Unruly places where little learning goes on with kids who plug up their ears with mindless music/noise, their eyes and minds with superficial images and aspirations of fame and celebrity, what hope is there for too many of them to live...real, not virtual, lives?

The encouragement of screen names on the internet, for alleged security reasons, often reveals the lack of something more than a name, i.e. the lack of being ashamed at one's stupidity, ignorance and arrogance and the opportunity for letting loose of some of the more base and less lovely aspects of their person.

I don't agree with everything John Lear says, but I think he's a classy person and, coincidentally perhaps, he has his real name there, which puts his reputation on the line. Obviously, most of the people are more legends in their own minds, rather than demonstrably accomplished, with probably a few exceptions.

And I would suggest to the moderator that some other "punishment" rather than banning and eliminating the thread be considered for this simple reason: Nobody here is really sensitive enough to perceive - or to really CARE about - the actual level of put down that is expressed when their character is criticized; it's WAY over their heads. It's NOT important to them so why not just let it all hang out here?

Obviously it disturbs no one here that JR made claims, accusations, assertions, etc. and couldn't back them up. Next. So why should he, you or anyone else here feign offense at having YOUR OWN failures pointed out?

This forum is what it is. To make it wrong for what it is is foolish. There's an old martial arts saying, "You're enemy is never wrong." Contemplation on that reveals why it's so. And so I'd suggest that ATS adopt that attitude too - not just me.

As I said, truth is harsh and each person has to live with the EFFECT of their CAUSES. It's a good thing to consider when venting the frustrations of your life, which is the present effect of YOUR OWN thoughts and actions, towards people who sought to educate you, wherever the class room may be.

Then again, there's that saying warning one about throwing their pearls where they won't be appreciated...a lesson form me and a few others?

Wow. Your persona is the definition of "God complex".

No, I'm not a psychologist or therapist, I just play one on the Internet.

Sorry Michael, but what has your previous post got to with Vogel? Or any of the points raised? You haven't answered a single, solitary one of them. All you have done is attempt some kind of high-blown refutation of the forum as a whole. You decry the fact that few people use their real names? Surely you knew that before you joined? And since it is so obviously a point of principle with you, why not use your surname, Mr. Horn? Surely you have another agenda besides this strange new form of "instruction" you seem to have discovered. Notice that you are the only one here that seems to be nearing sanction.

Answer any single one of the specific points raised above, on this page of the thread, or I for one shall ignore you from now on. Your insults aren't nearly entertaining enough to stick around for, and they seem to be all you have to offer.

Why dont you just answer the questions Michael, it's all so simple. What reputation has John Lear to loose? He is into UFO's for decades, even his "friends" could not ruin his reputation. He also had photo's posted that where later found out as not what he thought it was, atleast he admitted he was wrong. I like his claims and stories alot, if they are all true who knows, maybe oneday we can proof or disproof it.

Some high-resolution Meier pictures that might contribute to the disgussion, is that the same tree that is in many other pictures from Meier? Didnt someone go to the spot where a picture was taken and the tree was not there, I also heard they spoke to the people that owned the land tehre and they said that there never was a tree at that spot. I also heard that Meier grows mini trees.

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Start at the beginnning of the thread and you'll find the "answers" and/or the links to them.

No one spoon fed me the "answers" and unless you find them for yourselves you'll just be either believers or disbelievers and have learned nothing in the process. In what school on earth did demands for answers NOT send to look for them? Don't be soooo lazy. Demanding answers is a lazy person's excuse, you're fooling yourselves to pretend otherwise.

The differnece of course is that I've spent a considerable amount of time and money to find the answers for myself. You don't have to spend any money and not anywhere near the time to draw informed conclusions.

As far as Mr. Horn goes, I only require my parents and other family members to address me that way. My identity is obviously known and Michael is fine with me...as I already pointed out, like everything else.

another set of long, wordy posts avoiding the questions.

Michael, how do you explain the broken piece on the UFO in the picture I linked? There is clearly a piece of the "ufo" missing and it has clearly broken off and come to rest on the "ufo" as this broken piece is clearly visible in the image.

Can you explain this supposedly real image of a ufo hovering there with the broken peice resting on the side of the ufo? Is that broken piece his wondrous and somehow unavailable alien metal?

Time AND money?

What was the photo that forced you to take out the chequebook? I wouldn't have even opened even one of the images in this thread if I was on a dial-up, thats how much money I won't be spending.

What do you want to be famous FOR, michael? Flogging a dead horse?

I'll look in on you in here once in a while, but what's the point of asking questions that don't get answered?

admin edit: the NO name calling and snide remarks rules apply to everyone not just M Horn.


[edit on 5-4-2007 by Springer]

Hello Michael,

I have to say I really admire the way you keep coming back everyday with answers. I hope you are at least making a buck of Meier.

Its very tough trying to inform people whose only resource is the internet.

Its not like you are debating with posters that went over and talked with Meier and came back and said well I met him and I still don’t believe him.

So I am sure that you understand who you are debating with and their limitations. I know I do.

Keep up the good work and keep a cool head.

John lear

Originally posted by johnlear
I have to say I really admire the way you keep coming back everyday with answers.

I have yet to see any answers from him. Coming here and asking for duplicates made with one arm is not an answer. The only time Michael has posted anything in defence of his "evidence" it has been done with a sidestep of the actual questions being asked.

Okay, kids, hang up your UFO models, put away those guitar amps and let's see you kick some serious scientific butt!

Have other, independent scientists corraborated Vogel's work on the materials? Wouldn't such a conclusion be a magnet for other, serious researchers? What about published papers on the work? Surely, any academic finding such a thing would be quick to publish...

Therein lies the problem. The ONE thing about acadamia, is that corroboration is needed to be taken seriously. Without that, it's one crackpot whistling in the wind, no matter WHAT the credentials. Whether it's Stephen Hawking, or Albert Einstein, without corraboration and verification of others, such conclusions are NOT scientific, period. Then again, when also known as a crystal healer (as Vogel was), such corraboration by other scientists is not really something one would expect.

Sure, Vogel was a serious scientist back in the days working for IBM, but I doubt these credentials would be as applicable to his retirement time spent researching the healing properties of crystals, energy to plants, etc. This certainly puts him in the right mindset to be less critical of Meier's claims, and highly biases his analysis (especially without corraboration).

Unlike Klass (who simply ignores evidence counter to his preconceived notions), I'd love for Billy's story to be true....but with so many instances of trickery, fraud, and shoddy explanations touted as "scientific", I just can't take it seriously.

Originally posted by Crakeur

I have yet to see any answers from him. Coming here and asking for duplicates made with one arm is not an answer. The only time Michael has posted anything in defence of his "evidence" it has been done with a sidestep of the actual questions being asked.

Let me respectfully suggest that you are in error here Crakeur. He does in fact post answers. I think that what you mean is that the answers are not satisfactory to your way of thinking. Thats what you mean isn't it? I would respectfully suggest that you make that clear to all that what you meant is not that he didn't answer but that the answers weren't satisfactory to you. In point of fact the answers were satisfactory to me. I look forward to your clarification and thanks for the post.

John, let me be a bit more clear so that you can understand what I, and several other members have been saying.

We ask questions regarding specifics of the so called evidence and Mr. Horn does not answer the questions. Rather, he suggests we try and reproduce the evidence with one arm. He suggests we take their own "scientific" data as proof positive when everyone who watches a little court drama on tv knows that you never use the expert testimony if the expert is being presented from the opposing side. Mr. Horn has repeatedly dodge the questions and all he's been doing is his little song and dance about nothing.

So, I ask again, for something like the 5th or 6th time.

What does Mr. Horn or Mr. Meier say regarding the photograph of the ufo with the broken piece that is resting on the side of the ufo?

once again, the image with the broken piece sitting on the edge of the rim of the ufo.