Forest on Mars !?!?

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Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by blue bird
Ask yourself: what condition is NECESSARY for cyclone ( and this one ain't small) to form.

A lower atmospheric pressure at one point that starts a vertical air current that rotates because of Coriolis effect, I think.

We are here speaking about Martian cyclone ( huge one - we can see that polar cup is visible smaller than the cyclone system ) near North Pole, made by Hubble on April 27 1999, during Martian midsummer. Image of the same type cyclon - was once captured by Viking 20- something years ago.


On Earth for cyclone to be formed:

The exact mechanism that "triggers" them is not fully understood. If conditions are right an ordinary tropical depression or "low" can develop into a tropical cyclone. In the southern hemisphere the winds spiral in a clockwise direction towards its centre where they rise and spill over in an outward flow at high altitude. Summer heat beating on the warm ocean evaporates water creating a deep layer of moist air. The uplift of this moist air in the centre of a low cools it causing the intense rain characteristic of tropical cyclones. Higher in the upper levels the rising air spirals outward removing air faster than it flows in resulting in a fall in barometric pressure. Cyclones vary greatly in character but the one feature they all have in common is a virtually calm centre. This centre or "eye" is generally about sixteen to thirty-two kilometres across. Around this eye are bands of heavy cloud associated with the moist air which spirals in towards the centre of the cyclone.

source

this storm was marked by a system of swirling bright water-ice clouds instead of the billowing dust of a more typical martian wind storm. Measuring roughly 1,000 miles across, with a cloud-free central eye spanning about 200 miles, it was comparable in size to cyclones seen in planet Earth's polar regions.

* Earth




* Mars




I am pointing at the obvious similarities and parallels Mars/Earth. We come a long way from the first red, red and more red images of red and dry Mars - to blue sky - storms with watery clouds, even cyclones - fog - frost - wet and muddy soil all over....

I am just very excited of what is coming next, that 's for sure!











[edit on 2-6-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by tommyknockers
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What is the source of that image?

Can you provide it?

Originally posted by Orion437
What is the source of that image?
Can you provide it?

Got it off of this thread 1 page back
hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu...

What do you think about this - totally non-circle crater ( as other are on Mars)? Region - Ausonia Mensa massif/ESA 2004

source

Thanks.

Just found this on that image:

Is there a "boulder" in the left point of that "track"?

It seems that the "boulder" make a right-to-left movement...

The "track" is more "faint / washed / diffused" (sorry language issue") in the "right part/section" of the "track". And the "track" is stronger in the "left part/section" of the "track". That is saying us that the movement started from right to left...but the problem is that, acording to that image, a right to left movement would be uphill ...


What do you think?

All of these "tracks" appear to have the same scale. Wouldn’t rolling boulders be a little more random?

Originally posted by tommyknockers
All of these "tracks" appear to have the same scale. Wouldn’t rolling boulders be a little more random?

That is precisely what is odd here - what is the chance that all of these tracks are produced by the rocks of the same size - same shape - same weight - same motion?

** comment from MSSS:

Why the new boulders slid down the slope is unknown. This is the product of a mass movement (landsliding) process. That is, gravity is the main culprit. Whether the boulder motion was triggered by something -- a seismic event ("Marsquake") or strong winds -- is not known. Also unknown is whether all of the new boulder tracks formed at the same time, in response to a single event, or rolled downhill one at a time over the nearly 13-month period.

MSSS






[edit on 2-6-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by blue bird
What do you think about this - totally non-circle crater ( as other are on Mars)? Region - Ausonia Mensa massif/ESA 2004

source

Are you sure we can trust that site this time?

That crater only looks like that on that 3D rendering, in the photo it looks round.



It's the crater more or less in the middle of the mesa.

Originally posted by blue bird

Originally posted by tommyknockers
All of these "tracks" appear to have the same scale. Wouldn’t rolling boulders be a little more random?

That is precisely what is odd here - what is the chance that all of these tracks are produced by the rocks of the same size - same shape - same weight - same motion?

I dont' think that they are all made by rocks of the same size.

Just look at these tracks that I found on the same photo as the other tracks, PSP_001415_1875. I will post alo the area where I found them, it's easier to find them if you have the original full-size JPEG2000 image.

In this area

I found these

in this area

these tracks

and in this area

these tracks

As you can see, the sizes and shapes vary.

Originally posted by ArMaP
I have a hard time remembering many unimportant things, when I started reading your post I did not remembered what was I supposed not to forget.

Must be hard to learn something new with such obvious, and in my opinion self imposed, 'restraints' .

So, I will rephrase it:

I will try not to forget it.

I suppose we all do our best however good that turns out to be...

Well, I cannot help it, they do not look like pools of standing water to me.

I was making a list and going to add some pictures ( the desperation of it all ) but i am lazy and i have many more posts to do so tell me what you think about Mr Skipper's findings on the following page.

www.marsanomalyresearch.com...

I see changing shorelines indicating tidal activity and wonder how it can be explained by any other means.

And if you like more 'official' acknowledgement:

Newly released images from Mars Global Surveyor contain telltale deposits left behind by liquid water flowing on the surface within the few years that the spacecraft surveyed Mars. Scientists had previously announced the discovery of features that must have been carved by water within the last several million years, but this is the first evidence that water has flowed on Mars' surface while humans have been studying it. "Ten years ago, Mars scientists were talking about water billions of years ago. Five years ago, [Mike Malin and Ken Edgett] were talking about water millions of years ago. I think now we can honestly talk about liquid water on the surface of Mars today. And that revolution in our thinking truly has changed how we view Mars and how we should think about exploring Mars," said scientist Phil Christensen at a press conference held today at NASA Headquarters

The MOC images clearly demonstrate that these features formed in the last few years, while Mars Global Surveyor has been in orbit at Mars. But how do they demonstrate that liquid water was involved? Edgett stated three lines of evidence: their geological context, their morphology, and their brightness with respect to their surroundings. "The context is, these are in gullies. People have been talking for six and a half years about what could form gullies and what could flow through gullies, and, by and large, the consensus is liquid water. It could be acidic water, it could be briny water, it could be water carrying sediment, it could be slushy, but water is involved." This is in contrast to the consensus opinion for the formation mechanism of another currently forming feature on Mars, the so-called slope streaks. Slope streaks are interpreted to be scars left on slopes by an essentially dry process of dust avalanching. "These things are very far away from regions where dry dust avalanches occur -- they occur in a region where those things are not found," Edgett said.

www.planetary.org...

and mars.spherix.com...

The links you provided did not showed any reference to the finding of pools of standing water, or at least I did not found it.

I'm sure YOU could not but in my opinion their remarks coupled with the pictures and findings of concentrated water vapour should be enough!

This link does not work and

Just remove the slash at the end...

this link and this are for the same article in different sites.

So your memory DOES work on occasion...

OK, how can time prove me wrong?

What have I said that could be proved wrong?

They have already admitted to standing water on Mars and their acknowledgements of that fact will increase quickly from now on forward.

www.planetary.org...

You may still be able to sneak past some denials at this time but i will be around for a few years more and i WILL hold this against you.

[quopte]That what I said is fine dust in this photo really isn't dust?

Original:

qt.exploratorium.edu...

As per the following link it's very probably water and not sand. You can not see trough sand and the spectral differences should not be so large.

mars.spherix.com...

Or that the darker dust on this photo isn't higher on one side of the crater than on the other?

I am not sure if we can tell from this distance&orientation but in my opinion it's probably 'mud'

It is still too early to say for sure if rocks have weathering rind from the Martian wind, he said. But, he noted, "We may not have to struggle to look at these rocks because Mars may have cleared them off for us."

Squyres described as "bizarre, really weird" the way in which the crater floor seems to have responded to the dragging of the rover's airbags, which deflated after the lander bounced down onto the surface after being released from its parachute. "I don't understand it," he said. Surface pebbles seem to have been squished into the soil around the lander, which appears like layers of cohesive material. "It looks like mud, but can't be mud. It looks like when it is scrunched, it folds up," said Squyres, who added, "This is something I have never seen before."

www.news.cornell.edu...

Scientists were also surprised by how little the soil was disturbed when Spirit's robotic arm pressed the Moessbauer spectrometer's contact plate directly onto the patch being examined. Microscopic images from before and after that pressing showed almost no change. "I thought it would scrunch down the soil particles," Squyres said. "Nothing collapsed. What is holding these grains together?"

www.sciencedaily.com...

NASA's Opportunity rover sent back new images from Mars showing that small spheres previously found on the surface also exist below, in a trench the rover dug. Hints of salty water were also found in the trench, but much more analysis is needed to learn the true composition.

Meanwhile Opportunity's twin rover, Spirit, is about to dig a trench of its own in order to investigate soil that sticks to its wheels, suggesting the fine-grained material might be moist.
In a press conference today, officials said the soil at both locations could contain small amounts of water mixed with salt in a brine that can exist in liquid form at very low temperatures...
Water is the main thing scientists are searching for at Mars, because all life as we know it requires liquid water...

www.space.com...

NC (Nathalie Cabrol): We all said that. When we looked at that we said, It's mud-like. But that's just looking at a picture. We still don't know its composition. The thing is that this material seems to be cohesive, to look like mud. It's going to be very interesting to find out its composition.

I'm thrilled because when you look at it, you can see a patch that has been removed by the scraping. It has been flipped over, but it's still sticking to the rock. This is probably something we haven't seen anywhere else on Mars, and it's going to be really interesting to look at it more closely.

Is there any moisture in this? We don't know. Is there some salt, and we're seeing particles sticking together? Once again, we're just in awe, and looking at strange things that look like things we know on Earth. It doesn't mean that they are.

www.astrobio.net...

Or that Mars' winds can sort the sand and dust with different shapes and sizes?

Obviously? Why on Earth would the wind not be able to separate differing sizes/weights from each other?

I always try not to make any statement that looks like I am certain of anything when dealing with things like Martian landscape.

I am as i am apparently honest enough to come to even conclusions that i may not like. I always find it interesting how easily 'skeptics' come to conclusions that is in line with whatever the media tells them but how hard they find it to arrive at novel conclusions that may not carry public/scientific sanction.

You may not be able to arrive at conclusions but i have and time WILL prove me to be right as i am basing my conclusions entirely on deductive reasoning using primary source material.

All of the things I write here are what I think, they may be the truth or not, but they are just my opinion about those things.

One should at least attempt to have opinions that correspond with observation.

Have I ever said that there isn't any liquid water on Mars? Not that I remember, and if I said it it was a mistake,

"Theories have four stages of acceptance: i) this is worthless nonsense; ii) this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view; iii) this is true, but quite unimportant; iv) I always said so.

— J.B.S. Haldane, 1963

"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

— Arthur Schopenhauer

reactor-core.org...

Somewhere between Haldane's stage three and four and Schopenhauer's stage three?

Continued

because I do not have any way of knowing if there is or there isn't any liquid water on Mars and I try my best to keep within my knowledge.

PFFFFFFT! You DO have ways of knowing but you have steadfastly refused to consider them as are while 'forgetting' or avoiding any knowledge that might force you to arrive at a conclusion you clearly do not like.

I have said it before (twice at least), I do not have any preconception of what Mars is, or if there are mining operations on the Moon, or if Earth is visited by aliens from outer space, ghosts, demons, angels, gods, etc., I only think some things are more likely to be true than others, that's all.

Then you have no business bothering those who have such 'pre' ( yes , i did notice that)-conceptions of what might be happening there. Is there any way we might convince you to stop harassing and generally wasting the time of those who are perfectly happy just presenting information without claiming that it must be so? Why do you spend so much time engaging in discussion which you state you have no real opinions or convictions over?

If time will prove that, for example, those holes in the ground are entrances to huge underground areas with lots of water and full of living beings then I will not be neither disappointed or exultant,

If that is the case i feel truly sorry for you as i can not begin to imagine the mindset of those who would not be tremendously excited by such confirmations.

I will probably find it interesting and will try to learn the most about it, as I do about anything I find interesting.

As far as my experience with you goes this is just not how you go about new information. Why must arch skeptics present themselves as people who do in fact find anything contrary to their views 'interesting' when they spend all their time attempting to prevent further discussion by denial or whatever means possible?

Stellar

Originally posted by blue bird
ArMaP - on image ROCKS ARE GOING UP-HILL!

Save your breath bluebird... I tried that before with the moon one... even showed topography maps... still didn't work...

They just won't accept a "rock" rolling UPHILL


Thanks bluebird and stellar Now I can look forward to another week cataloging all this new data...

And just when I though I was caught up

Esit to add....

Pegasus Press Release...

A little while back we were discussing clouds and a "thin" Atmosphere on Mars...

I presented the Mars1 Humvee and have yet to get my questions answered

However here now is ABSOLUTE PROOF that SOMEONE knows how thick the atmosphere on Mars really is...

I mean after all, don't you need quite a bit of AIR to fly an airplane?

Air Force Research Laboratory (My favorite place for interesting tech )

AFRL Tests Mars Flyer Concept

Thats right folkes... our very own Air Force is planning for a Mars detachment....




I tell you what... Humvee's, now fancy airplanes... I wanna know where to sign up! Exploration sure has taken a giant leap forward into luxury

And I REALLY want to know how they plan to get all this hardware up there

[edit on 3-6-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by StellarX
Must be hard to learn something new with such obvious, and in my opinion self imposed, 'restraints' .

Restraints? What restraints? Do you consider that I am imposing a restraint in my ability to learn because I forgot the reason I considered your post a little offensive?

I was making a list and going to add some pictures ( the desperation of it all ) but i am lazy and i have many more posts to do so tell me what you think about Mr Skipper's findings on the following page.

www.marsanomalyresearch.com...

I see changing shorelines indicating tidal activity and wonder how it can be explained by any other means.

I see what you mean, but what I find strange is, if that is water at the South pole, if it was Summer at the time then why didn't that water froze when the Winter came? If it was Winter at the time why wasn't the water frozen?

So your memory DOES work on occasion...

I said it was only with unimportant things...

You may still be able to sneak past some denials at this time but i will be around for a few years more and i WILL hold this against you.

Do as you like, I do not see knowledge as being an immutable thing, and I do not know if I will be around a few more months, much less a few more years.

You may not be able to arrive at conclusions but i have and time WILL prove me to be right as i am basing my conclusions entirely on deductive reasoning using primary source material.

I am able to arrive at conclusions, but that does not mean that my conclusions are the truth, that is why I always say, when based only in my conclusions, that I do not really know if something is true or false.

One should at least attempt to have opinions that correspond with observation.

My opinions correspond with my observations.

PFFFFFFT! You DO have ways of knowing but you have steadfastly refused to consider them as are while 'forgetting' or avoiding any knowledge that might force you to arrive at a conclusion you clearly do not like.

I do not like or dislike any conclusion, and what I think I do know does not depend of other people's definition of knowledge but of my definition.

I may have strong enough evidences pointing to a conclusion to make me consider it the most probable explanation to something, but I do not consider that I know that the explanation is the real explanation, then I say that I do not know the real explanation.

Then you have no business bothering those who have such 'pre' ( yes , i did notice that)-conceptions of what might be happening there. Is there any way we might convince you to stop harassing and generally wasting the time of those who are perfectly happy just presenting information without claiming that it must be so?

Do you feel harassed by my posts?

Sorry, my intention is not to harass or bother anyone.

Why do you spend so much time engaging in discussion which you state you have no real opinions or convictions over?

I do have opinions but I do not have many convictions, much less of what happens in other planets.

If that is the case i feel truly sorry for you as i can not begin to imagine the mindset of those who would not be tremendously excited by such confirmations.

Maybe because of the effects of my asthma crisis since I was 5 years old I trained myself not to get too excited about anything, that could represent another day at the hospital breathing oxygen through a tube in the nose. That may have made my life a less exciting life, but at least it kept alive (but I am not sure if it was the best option).

As far as my experience with you goes this is just not how you go about new information. Why must arch skeptics present themselves as people who do in fact find anything contrary to their views 'interesting' when they spend all their time attempting to prevent further discussion by denial or whatever means possible?

Do you think that the way I post my opinions prevents discussion?

Maybe I do not know how to present them, I was never good at writing, much less in a foreign language, but my intentions were never to stop or prevent discussion, and if you really knew me you would know that.

Do you want me to stop answering your posts? OK, just say so and I will stop and let you free to discuss anything you want.

PS:
My intention, when I joined ATS almost 3 years ago, was to discuss with other people different points of view about many subjects, and in some cases to show other people what people in a different country think about the same or other subjects, and at the same time as a way of trying to improve my English writing skills (I wrote almost nothing in English before I joined ATS, just some posts on newsgroups and some e-mails).

To anyone:
If I am bothering, harassing and/or getting in the way of the spirit of ATS then just say it and I am out of here.

Originally posted by zorgon
Save your breath bluebird... I tried that before with the moon one... even showed topography maps... still didn't work...

They just won't accept a "rock" rolling UPHILL

Are you forgetting this post?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, as usual...

ArMaP - To anyone:
If I am bothering, harassing and/or getting in the way of the spirit of ATS then just say it and I am out of here.

Dear ArMaP - don't be a baby!



[im][/im]
But can you answer me - I asked you before - it in that image, rock is on the TOP of the hill and NO rock on the end of the parabola curve - how is possible that rock is rolling UPHILL?


[edit on 3-6-2007 by blue bird]

I cannot resist any longer...

Armap and Stellar sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g!

Hey, you're both popular with us, and you both bring valuable contributions to the debate. Its all the bickering that bogs down real progress. Even though I personally do not produce the volume that undo, Zorgon, blue bird, and others have, I head up the Pegasus technical division for propulsion and power systems. So we all have something to bring with us, and everyone is important, even if we do not get along so well!

It took me a good while to warm up to Armap, but once I got the hang of his ways he reminded me of a lifelong friend I have who is also meticulous, logical, has a twisted sense of humor, and owes no allegience to any ideaology or person except himself. It takes all kinds.

And I would sing Stellar's praises, but he shows up quite clearly on his own. There is no doubt Stellar has the smarts and ingenuity to hunt down the most interesting information on or off the net, plus he boasts a strong background in history. We really need you too.

So, anyway, there you have my take. Hope you all make the right decision, bearing in mind that it will effect the rest of us.

Originally posted by blue bird
Dear ArMaP - don't be a baby!

Sorry, sometimes I get too upset with little things.

But can you answer me - I asked you before - it in that image, rock is on the TOP of the hill and NO rock on the end of the parabola curve - how is possible that rock is rolling UPHILL?

As I said before, probably in the "Mysterious ‘Tracks’ On Mars And The Moon!" thread, I think that the rock came from the area marked '1', did the track '2' and stopped at '3'.

If the rock did this then it did not roll up-hill.

Unless you are talking about another track.

Originally posted by Matyas
I cannot resist any longer...

Armap and Stellar sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g!

Hey, you're both popular with us, and you both bring valuable contributions to the debate. Its all the bickering that bogs down real progress. Even though I personally do not produce the volume that undo, Zorgon, blue bird, and others have, I head up the Pegasus technical division for propulsion and power systems. So we all have something to bring with us, and everyone is important, even if we do not get along so well!

It took me a good while to warm up to Armap, but once I got the hang of his ways he reminded me of a lifelong friend I have who is also meticulous, logical, has a twisted sense of humor, and owes no allegience to any ideaology or person except himself. It takes all kinds.

And I would sing Stellar's praises, but he shows up quite clearly on his own. There is no doubt Stellar has the smarts and ingenuity to hunt down the most interesting information on or off the net, plus he boasts a strong background in history. We really need you too.

So, anyway, there you have my take. Hope you all make the right decision, bearing in mind that it will effect the rest of us.

I like Armap because he is from Portugal (i like that nation for some reason) and his avatar is a South Park character.

His language makes it hard for him to communicate sometimes, but he does pretty good. He is always very respectful, from my experience.

A pretty good guy, overall (i presume Armap to be male).