Why wouldnt aliens be like us? VIOLENT

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

If a species turns into race of drones obsessed with peace and mindlessness they would seal their fate. Now this doens't mean they need to be mindless barbarians going about conquering and destroying like galactic Mongols. It just means as a species they need maintain survival instincts.

I find it humorous that you equate peaceful, spiritual beings with "a race of drones obsessed with peace and mindlessness" or "Pacified Zombie Vegetables". LOL!

I guess that's what it all boils down to, war is exciting, peace is boring.... all that galactic peace and unity would surely rot our brains without a little galactic war and devastation to shake things up now and then.....

But in all seriousness, I'm sure the peaceful ETs do maintain "survival instincts" and they do have some weaponry available; but it is used more to contain possible threats - like us - than to conquer and destroy.....

Originally posted by millerman

I find it humorous that you equate peaceful, spiritual beings with "a race of drones obsessed with peace and mindlessness" or "Pacified Zombie Vegetables". LOL!

I guess that's what it all boils down to, war is exciting, peace is boring.... all that galactic peace and unity would surely rot our brains without a little galactic war and devastation to shake things up now and then.....

But in all seriousness, I'm sure the peaceful ETs do maintain "survival instincts" and they do have some weaponry available; but it is used more to contain possible threats - like us - than to conquer and destroy.....

I liked the Pacified Zombie Vegetables especially with butter.

On a serious note, that was my point that any alien civilization would still have the capability to fight not that they were all a bunch of Space Nazis.
I just don't agree with the view that some people think aliens are like a bunch of Tibetan monks crossed with Timothy Leary.

Originally posted by UltraViolet
Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but re what I've quoted....I doubt that the abduction phenomenon ever be explained in a way that sets everyone at ease.
And then....what about all the documented cases of people just disappearing in front of witnesses and not ever returning? I don't envy them!

Hm, haven't read about that, any links to any of those documents?

Cheers ~ L

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I agree with the "we don't really know" idea. My argument is based off of biological research on earth. I feel whatever lifeforms exist will need to eat and reproduce to survive. I could be wrong. There may be intelligent plasma living in Nebulae and Stellar Coronas as far as I know that are immortal and just exist.

But here's the problem with that and aliens like that. There comes a point when humans could not relate to it. If it becomes too alien we may not even classify it as life.

Well as to not get into a philo. discussion about what life is and isn't, I still think we'd recon a non conform heap of plasma as life if it was aware of self and able to communicate. But yeah, point taken.

If a species turns into race of drones obsessed with peace and mindlessness they would seal their fate. Now this doens't mean they need to be mindless barbarians going about conquering and destroying like galactic Mongols. It just means as a species they need maintain survival instincts.

Haha, Lol! I see your point, still you're going black & white on me here but I guess you're doing that to further your case that most likely not all aliens are uber fluffy love spreading tree (space?) huggers I totally agree with you there. I'm certainly not claiming that all things past us when in comes to tech. advances (and other advance. of course) must be super friendly, that if anything would be ignorant when the possibilites probably are vast beyond belief.

I don't think aliens are any more evil than us. I have hard time comprehending any species as being as horrorfying as us. If any are, G-d help us. Not invading us doesn't equal benevolent. I'm not sure how that can even be argued. There are plenty of practical reason why we havn't been invaded or wiped out. One would be simply why? Why waste resources to take earth? How would they benefit? If any species has its eyes on earth it needs a good reason, more than just "were evil aliens" to invade a planet.

Yup as to "why bother" and there is certainly nothing that sais there aren't peeps flying around out there who might be "violent" (if that were not the case I'd be truly surprised). I find it highly unlikely however that we are visited by "aliens like us, violent" (as the thread states) - if that were the case.. we'll I'd think things would have been quite different by now (as you said, god help us..). More reports point to the scenario that we're being watched by someone who doesn't want us to blow ourselves into pieces or atleast not to bring our violence into space. But ultimatley that's just my take on it since you can pretty much spin anything whichever way you want.

I could see a benevolent species invading us before a malevolent one. Look at earth, its a mess. If there were aliens who were compassionate like some humans are about other species, I would not be surprised if the galactic version of UN peacekeepers came to disarm the planet and stop all of the fighting. This of course would probably end like the UN mission in Somalia. A malevolent species would probably ignore us and go about realizing the universe does not revolve around earth or humanity. They would care less if we blew ourselves up and may not even consider us intelligent.

Lol Yeah. I think such an "invasion" has already occured and we didn't like it since we can't control and/or own it. By that I don't mean full blown landing here, rambo style, but rather disable a few nukes and messed with some fancy weapons.

All in all to sum if up for me, it'd be weird if all "aliens" were snowwhite angels with love all around, but no, I don't think we're being visited by "aliens, violent like us" because then we'd most likely be in war with them. To simply state that all beings capeable of inter galactic travel equals peace & harmony seems almost like a religious statement based more on belief than anything else.

Havent checked my post yet today, didnt expect this kind of response!

Any way, it seems like alot of you are still saying things like "how would we know about differnt species behavior" or something to that tune.

Every creature on earth has violent tendencies. From the robin in your front yard picking a worm out of the ground, to the common cold a virus infects us with!

Every level of life on our planet has the violent/survival instinct in them, To say that aliens/ET are different would suggest all biengs/creatures on their planet (down to the microbial) are benevolent.

Survival by its very nature is violent, Thus proving once again they would be just like us.

Alot of you think the USA is evil right, But we havent taken over the world yet have we!!?? Think about that for a moment.........

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Ive never bought into the whole aliens are benevolent enlightened beings coming to spread fluffy bunnies and rainbows crap. Thats just new Age babble.

Skadi, you may be on to that, but the malevolent thing kinda gets annoying to. I've heard new ager, upon channeler, upon government witness say that such and such alien is totally evil. But you can't really say becuase i don't think you can really see whether abductions and the like are real or not.

Originally posted by redseal
Havent checked my post yet today, didnt expect this kind of response!

Any way, it seems like alot of you are still saying things like "how would we know about differnt species behavior" or something to that tune.

Every creature on earth has violent tendencies. From the robin in your front yard picking a worm out of the ground, to the common cold a virus infects us with!

Every level of life on our planet has the violent/survival instinct in them, To say that aliens/ET are different would suggest all biengs/creatures on their planet (down to the microbial) are benevolent.

No it doesn't, there are no nuances in your logic? Agressive->less reason for agression->no agression.. simply put, could be a path of evoloution. But you don't have to go that far even, they could simply have less reason to be agressive (free energy/food/primal satisfaction or whatever you want to call it).

Survival by its very nature is violent, Thus proving once again they would be just like us.

Sure. And where are we in 1 million years? Still raping and plundering? I'd like to believe we treat women slightly different today than we did when we were cavemen. Baby steps..

Alot of you think the USA is evil right, But we havent taken over the world yet have we!!?? Think about that for a moment.........

What? I find this totally beyond the point but I'll humor you and say no. Why in the world would I think that the USA is evil? Some of my best friends are american. I don't get it though, you could just as well have asked if I thought Norway, France or any other country except the country I'm living in *is evil*. No country (lines on a map) is evil?

Originally posted by redseal
Havent checked my post yet today, didnt expect this kind of response!

Any way, it seems like alot of you are still saying things like "how would we know about differnt species behavior" or something to that tune.

Every creature on earth has violent tendencies. From the robin in your front yard picking a worm out of the ground, to the common cold a virus infects us with!

Every level of life on our planet has the violent/survival instinct in them, To say that aliens/ET are different would suggest all biengs/creatures on their planet (down to the microbial) are benevolent.

Survival by its very nature is violent, Thus proving once again they would be just like us.

Alot of you think the USA is evil right, But we havent taken over the world yet have we!!?? Think about that for a moment.........

If a lifeform eats and reproduces its going to have survival instincts that help promote the ability to eat and reproduce. It will have to compete with others to survive. In order for it to be successful it must not only survive but dominate and rise above the others. They would have to force their will upon other lifeforms. The others would resist following their own instincts thus we have conflict and violence.

Now how this violence occurs could very well separate them from us. If they are like Mammals they will possess emotions that amplify their instincts. That would potentially make them very violent and very compassionate at the same time. They would be like us. Now if they were more like reptiles they wouldn't spas out like us for good or worse. They would react methodically and efficiently. They would seem cold and indifferent from our point of view. They would still be violent but only when necessary. In fact their entire life would be ruled by Necessities where something like us would be dominated by Ideals.

Of course they could always be Cephalopod type creatures ruled by neither line of thought. Hopefully whatever influences their behavior doesn't have anything that sounds like Cthulhu associated with it.

What? I find this totally beyond the point but I'll humor you and say no. Why in the world would I think that the USA is evil? Some of my best friends are american. I don't get it though, you could just as well have asked if I thought Norway, France or any other country except the country I'm living in *is evil*. No country (lines on a map) is evil?

The point being the USA could take over the world, be it militarilary, or financialy! Yet we dont, the same bieng said for aliens! They could but they dont!

I honestly don't think the United States could conquer the planet. We could have decimated it after World War II, but that's about it.

I think the universe is probably a lot like the Star Trek universe, a little of everything. The possibilities are literally almost endless. Also, I can imagine how for an intelligent species to survive and adapt, it must be capable to control its environment... including to defend itself, and do everything possible to eat/sustain itself. The possibility of violence/aggresion is very likely I think, unless the species relies on its cunning and elusiveness to survive. Great, I have a headache now...

I have no doubt that aliens could be violent, but I would assume that if they have reached such form of advancement they would be much more practical than humans are today.

Originally posted by redseal
The point being the USA could take over the world, be it militarilary, or financialy! Yet we dont, the same bieng said for aliens! They could but they dont!

Heh. Yeah sorry, I find that funny - comparing the USA to some alien species that might be unfathomably further technologically developed than we are, capeable of intergalactic travel and possibly in possession of answers to questions we have just begun to ask.

At the same time I don't really agree with you either, the western industrialised countries (including mine) are already the rulers of the world and in more ways than one we're riding the backs of the poor in third world countries.

I'm not going into a meaningless discussion on who'd win, the USA or the rest of the world today, but I think stating that it'd be an easy match is just plain ignorant (in our rather economically co-dependant globalized world). Furthermore I don't think the native americans would share your views or perspective on who has or has not been "taking over the world". But that goes for a lot of nations and a lot of native inhabitants.. which is sort of my point.

Cheers ~ L

[edit on 8-4-2007 by lasse]

[edit on 8-4-2007 by lasse]

Originally posted by Unplugged
I think the universe is probably a lot like the Star Trek universe, a little of everything. The possibilities are literally almost endless. Also, I can imagine how for an intelligent species to survive and adapt, it must be capable to control its environment... including to defend itself, and do everything possible to eat/sustain itself. The possibility of violence/aggresion is very likely I think, unless the species relies on its cunning and elusiveness to survive. Great, I have a headache now...

I agree with the Star Trek analogy, just less human looking. Not everyone in the galaxy is going to look like us with bad prosthetic makeup.

[edit on 8/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

The one thing we must accept as fact is that if aliens are visiting us in the manner we suspect then they have been able to devote time and resources necessary to develope a broad range of very sophisticated technologies. If societal violence was an issue, then a huge portion of their finite resources would be consumed by that, as it is on earth. Look around. Consider the vast amount of resources the nations of earth pour into police, military, wars, prisons, etc. every day. And year by year, as more countries develop, increasing amounts of our resources are consumed in violence-related activities. That violence industry also causes environmental issues that consume even more resources. Just imagine what we, as a planet, could develop, could accomplish, if we pooled our resources and didn't need to fund wars, the military and all that. In my way of thinking, only civilizations that are able to eliminate the violence industry would be able to concentrate the resources on developing the sophisticated technologies needed for interstellar travel. Civilizations that were violence oriented would be exhausting their resources on that pursuit.

Originally posted by millermanbut it is used more to contain possible threats - like us - than to conquer and destroy.....

humans are a threat? that's new

Originally posted by jtma508
The one thing we must accept as fact is that if aliens are visiting us in the manner we suspect then they have been able to devote time and resources necessary to develope a broad range of very sophisticated technologies. If societal violence was an issue, then a huge portion of their finite resources would be consumed by that, as it is on earth. Look around. Consider the vast amount of resources the nations of earth pour into police, military, wars, prisons, etc. every day. And year by year, as more countries develop, increasing amounts of our resources are consumed in violence-related activities. That violence industry also causes environmental issues that consume even more resources. Just imagine what we, as a planet, could develop, could accomplish, if we pooled our resources and didn't need to fund wars, the military and all that. In my way of thinking, only civilizations that are able to eliminate the violence industry would be able to concentrate the resources on developing the sophisticated technologies needed for interstellar travel. Civilizations that were violence oriented would be exhausting their resources on that pursuit.

I disagree. As someone said earlier, war often proves to be the catalyst that drives technological advancement due to the constant need to have a weapon that's better than what the other side has. Often, the technologies developed while in pursuit of that better weapon have applications that reach far beyond the military. Look at the tremendous technological development that occured as a result of WW2 and the Cold War. Computers, aerodynamics, satellites, jet propulsion, and nuclear energy were among the many, many technologies that received highly accelerated development cycles as a result of WW2 and later, the threat of WW3.

In fact, the only good thing about wars is that they're all about competition, and competition generally brings about a couple of humanity's best attributes: ingenuity and creativity. It definitely brings out a lot of the worst attributes as well, but its hard to deny that its been a major positive for technological development.





[edit on 8-4-2007 by vor78]

vor78. I understand your point. But it's couched on the model that prevails here on earth and your argument assumes that this is the only possible model. The space program has also evolved amazing technological advancement. Now, you'll argue that the whole existence of the space program is as an extension of the war machine. But I don't believe that there is any fact in evidence that says that the space program could not exist without war. In addition to mankind's traits that you list, curiosity is also an extremely important one. The thirst for knowledge and understanding, our collective attempts at gaining understanding of the universe and our place in it has motivated a great deal of our science and exploration. I believe your argument has merit --- insofar as war motivates technology --- but I believe that the focus of that technological advancement (inward) as well as the consumption of huge amounts of resources as a result of conflict would hamstring any civilization that was interested in exploring the universe. Again, I point to our own civilization to make the point.

yeah, i have speculated that aliens...if advanced are probably as stupid as the human race...or as clever as the leaders to make people believe that they are against each other while the 'slaves' kill each other.

after all, if i were to start up my own country, doubt that would even be allowed. (saying i had the money to make my own island like of the coast of Dubai!) lol

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by millerman
Why would spacefaring civilizations be peaceful?

I believe a lot of it has to do with the technologies that enable interstellar travel.

Once a civilization has mastered the use of "free" energy (zero-point energy) and has the means to travel about the galaxy, there is a paradigm shift from "scarcity" to "abundance". Abundant, virtually unlimited energy and resources. There is virtually unlimited EM energy in the fabric of space/time all around us, even in "empty" space, and millions upon millions of solar systems and planets to extract other needed resources from.

So once a civilization reaches that level, it is no longer necessary to conquer and assimilate other civilizations - because there's plenty of room and resources for everybody!

this is the case exactly... good job millerman. and further, with this new "abundance" a civilization of beings who have reaped this reward will then be immediately prefaced with a whole new set of paradigms and none which include the conquest of space and hard resources - all those become meaningless in the face unlimited energy and resources.