Why wouldnt aliens be like us? VIOLENT

Why would spacefaring civilizations be peaceful?

I believe a lot of it has to do with the technologies that enable interstellar travel.

Once a civilization has mastered the use of "free" energy (zero-point energy) and has the means to travel about the galaxy, there is a paradigm shift from "scarcity" to "abundance". Abundant, virtually unlimited energy and resources. There is virtually unlimited EM energy in the fabric of space/time all around us, even in "empty" space, and millions upon millions of solar systems and planets to extract other needed resources from.

So once a civilization reaches that level, it is no longer necessary to conquer and assimilate other civilizations - because there's plenty of room and resources for everybody!

Under such conditions, galactic peace would be FAR more preferable to galactic war.....

Also, with these advances in technology come the possibility of developing weapons that can destroy entire planets, or possibly even entire star systems. So unless a civilization VOLUNTARILY abandons the ways of weapons and warfare, and adopts a peaceful, enlightened philosophy, it will eventually self-destruct...... and we have indeed been on the brink of that since the 40s.....

Originally posted by millerman
Why would spacefaring civilizations be peaceful?

I believe a lot of it has to do with the technologies that enable interstellar travel.

Once a civilization has mastered the use of "free" energy (zero-point energy) and has the means to travel about the galaxy, there is a paradigm shift from "scarcity" to "abundance". Abundant, virtually unlimited energy and resources. There is virtually unlimited EM energy in the fabric of space/time all around us, even in "empty" space, and millions upon millions of solar systems and planets to extract other needed resources from.

So once a civilization reaches that level, it is no longer necessary to conquer and assimilate other civilizations - because there's plenty of room and resources for everybody!

Under such conditions, galactic peace would be FAR more preferable to galactic war.....

Also, with these advances in technology come the possibility of developing weapons that can destroy entire planets, or possibly even entire star systems. So unless a civilization VOLUNTARILY abandons the ways of weapons and warfare, and adopts a peaceful, enlightened philosophy, it will eventually self-destruct...... and we have indeed been on the brink of that since the 40s.....

A Species that evolved from a pack hunting predator isn't going to just stop being violent because of an abundance of resources. Well actually any species not just predators would not stop being violent due to an abundence of resources.

The only way they would stop is if they were drugged, implanted, or maybe genetically modified to suppress their survival instincts. Even then there would be members who would probably evolve the ability to maintain their Survival instincts. That would be a conflict in itself to suppress those who are different than the zombified pacified herd.

[edit on 7/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 7/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

I'm not convinced the prey/predator model is universal. Given our sentience, we are able to rise above the eat or be eaten mindset. Besides, it's a great honor to be eaten by a bear, then you have bear spirit forever. And if you honor the animals you eat, honor their sacrifice so that you can live, it lifts everyone and recognizes the cycle of life. It's a cycle not an end.

As far as the number of abductions that report violent experiences including bizarre psychological tests, I wouldn't be surprised to find out some of them were human inspired falsifications. How come there weren't millions of such abductions reported before 1985. Certainly there would be more in our literary history than a few folk tales to support that kind of interference with people.

Think of what Strieber said himself in his last communion letter:

from "The Communion Letter"
Whitley Strieber's cover letter from the Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3, No. 1.
Dear Reader:
I would like to thank you for your patronage of the Communion Letter. Your subscription ends with this issue, and we are not taking new subscriptions or renewals. A list of available back issues is printed on the reverse of this letter for those who may be interested in collecting.
I had always intended to run the newsletter about two years, and that amount of time has now passed. During this period the Communion Letter has gained a large circulation and, I believe, published some remarkable articles.
But all good things must come to an end. I am not a UFO researcher and do not wish to endure the continued media attack that is associated with being involved in this field. In addition, the so-called "UFO-ologists" are probably the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered. Their interpretation of the visitor experience is rubbish from beginning to end. The "abduction reports" that they generate are not real. They are artifacts of hypnosis and cultural conditioning.
What we are experiencing is a perceptual anomaly that is sufficiently ambiguous and intense that it demands explanation. It is something that human beings have been experiencing for a long time. It is the cause of religion, of mythology, of folklore. Presently it is the cause of the "alien abduction" belief.
What is *really* behind our experiences? We are. This is a human thing. However, I would also say that it indicates that we--and our world--are vastly different, and far more strange, than we have ever dreamed, or dared imagine.
With that I leave you.

What is behind this experience? 'It's a human thing.' Isn't it obvious he feels there's been some amount of media hysteria and subliminal suggestion involved in the profusion and direction of the reports. He himself questions the accuracy of the hypnotic techniques that regress people to memories of alien encounters.

The other telling examples would be the war of the worlds radio play, and the explosion of so-called alien channelers and doctored UFO photos after the Roswell crash. Everyone wants in on this game. There is big money involved, 7 and a half million annually from subscriptions to his web site alone. And you too, could act as the bringer of hidden knowledge and great power. You too could be a conduit to eternal life and man's entry into the cosmos. Quite a lure.

We don't know what we're dealing with and until you see an alien for yourself who wants to submit you to torture, take it with a grain of salt.

Frankly a species that lives off another without mutual reciprocity is called a parasite. His so-called alien encounters have gone a great distance in habituating us to the idea that an advanced species would engage in torture.

Now it's 'the dark side has the knowledge.'

For heaven's sakes. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love.....



[edit on 7-4-2007 by clearwater]

[edit on 7-4-2007 by clearwater]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

A Species that evolved from a pack hunting predator isn't going to just stop being violent because of an abundance of resources. Well actually any species not just predators would not stop being violent due to an abundence of resources.

Well the abundance of resources will bring about a great paradigm shift; there will be political and economic and philosophical and spiritual changes and evolutions as well, not just technological.....

And if it is true that there is a greater galactic community who all coexist peacefully, and who are waiting to welcome us into that community, it would be incredibly foolish for us to attempt to go to war against them....

Almost every lifeform on Earth preys upon another, everything from Bacteria, some plants, fungi, every single Animal species, etc. The only way I can imagine the prey/predator concept not being applicable is if the aliens were lithovores or plants. The likleyhood that any lithovore or plant would be sentient is almost nil.

The only option I can think of for a non predatory sentient alien species would technically not even be lifeforms. This would be either machine intelligences or information based intelligences, aka Infomorphs. They would truly be alien in every manner of existance. Considering they either destroyed, enslaved, or drove their biological creators to extinction I'm not sure if I would want to have anything to do with them.

Infinite energy and resources arn't going change a species instinctive behavior. Only some totalitarian policy would suppress instinctive violence. Even pack behavior would have to be suppressed with its hierarchial instincts which lead to conflict between members and other dominant pack leaders.

Becoming a pacified and zombieifed vegetable is not my idea of peace or utopia. That would be a giant leap towards extinction. As the species no longer was driven by its survival instincts and became obsessed with pseudo-science/religion, spurred on by behavior suppression it would open itself to self destruction through inaction. Growth and expansion would slow and cease. Disasters and other unseen events could destroy them. They may even stop breeding and just die off. Come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if they committed mass suicide as part of their "ascension" to a higher plane.

From a realist and practical perspective I just don't see Utopian alien civilizations possible without severe implications in loss of identity or the ability to survive. The universe isn't just going to stop and say hey wait those guys are peaceful lets not hit them comets, asteroids, cosmic rays, etc. Various other lifeforms are not going to excuse them either, whether its parasites, disease, or other sentient species. Without the will to survive, grow, expand, and dominate they would go extinct.

[edit on 7/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 7/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 7/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by mizzu
Given the time it would take to develop interstellar space travel, probably 10,000 + years of civilization.It almost would be a certainty that they would have peace with one another otherwise they would have destroyed their world. Look what we have gotten ourselves into in 2- 4000 years.

Did all the typing for me. It is not human nature to be violent. The human nature ordeal is a cop out for Darwinists to justify behaving like an asshole. Primitive minded people are violent. People now are still primitive minded BTW...

Originally posted by Incognito C

Originally posted by mizzu
Given the time it would take to develop interstellar space travel, probably 10,000 + years of civilization.It almost would be a certainty that they would have peace with one another otherwise they would have destroyed their world. Look what we have gotten ourselves into in 2- 4000 years.

Did all the typing for me. It is not human nature to be violent. The human nature ordeal is a cop out for Darwinists to justify behaving like an asshole. Primitive minded people are violent. People now are still primitive minded BTW...

Primitive minded? No were still human and still animals. Even cows kill each other, sometimes even eat each other. Pacified Zombie Vegetables are not my idea of an Advanced lifeform.

I've heard and seen documentaries describing an incident involving the russians trying to capture a USO (unidentified submerged object). As they began to tighten the nuise on the object with their navy, the object reportedly attacked in self-defense before escaping, resulting in the deaths of russian personel. I would like to here more on this, but if its true, it would prove that they are similar to us (or that they are us, in the form of an American black project avoiding capture).

Mikeboyd

Just because we have plant and animal species that we consume to meet our food/survival needs here on Earth, does not mean we must necessarily go out into space and consume and destroy other sentient civilizations!

The "instinct" to eat things as food, and the "instinct" to adopt a xenophobic, militaristic, imperialistic stance toward other sentient races, are two completely different things.....

There are so many different facets of intelligence. Just because a species has the knowledge that enables them to blow up a planet doesn't make them automatically intelligent, IMO. Emotional wisdom, i.e. the ability to empathize, is one of the most important ways to be intelligent. We're sadly lacking in that on this planet! It's easy to imagine that elsewhere they're way ahead of us as far as that's concerned....

Originally posted by millerman
Mikeboyd

Just because we have plant and animal species that we consume to meet our food/survival needs here on Earth, does not mean we must necessarily go out into space and consume and destroy other sentient civilizations!

The "instinct" to eat things as food, and the "instinct" to adopt a xenophobic, militaristic, imperialistic stance toward other sentient races, are two completely different things.....

I'm not advocating Xenocide. I think humans will be able to accept any alien lifeforms eventually. I doubt we would eat them, unless they were the offworld equivalent of plants and herd animals. It would be highly unlikely we would eat primitive alien intelligences. We might put them in zoos or reserves, but not eat them. I hope we would have some kind of Prime Directive law which kept us off of primitive worlds so we didn't end up putting them in zoos or reserves.

As for advanced species, if they are friendly towards us and their way of life is compatible with ours I think we would for the most part get along. We would be very suspicious of them and may even go to war every once in awhile, and they would probably be the same in return. Even if it was not in their nature to be paranoid, they would be after they met us. Their behaviors though could be so incompatible that we simply may not be able to get along, say if they were a Theocratic Hive Mind of Drones who committed suicide in order to "ascend" the flesh. I think we would react with horror and send a kinetic weapon at near light speed into their planet.

Originally posted by UltraViolet
There are so many different facets of intelligence. Just because a species has the knowledge that enables them to blow up a planet doesn't make them automatically intelligent, IMO. Emotional wisdom, i.e. the ability to empathize, is one of the most important ways to be intelligent. We're sadly lacking in that on this planet! It's easy to imagine that elsewhere they're way ahead of us as far as that's concerned....

Emotions seem to be a survival trait relative to Mammals. It makes us able to sympathize with one another, be compassionate towards others including other lifeforms, and it allows us to have black hearted hate that fuels periods of hyperviolence like World War 2.

So do we really want an emotional alien who might spas out or a more logical calculating neighbor comparable to a reptile. Who would be more advanced? Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Both would be capable of violence.

"I'm pretty sure aliens have made agreements with government officials."

Oh yes. We know that for sure, evidence is everywhere!

"ETs are higher buildings."

I'm sure they smoke pot all the time.

(Insert stupid conclusion here)

LOL

[edit on 7-4-2007 by Johnmike]

Violence is more than likely the norm "out there" just as it is here on Earth.

But having said that I doubt very seriously that any given civilization would send out into space, invest in contacting other species on other planets, the most violent of their societies. Makes a bad first impression.

I think that like us, knowing that whomever was sent into space had the POTENTIAL to be very violent, if needed, would be good enough. Violence has it place, like it or not. So does being benign but we should never venture out into any unknown with just one or the other. There needs to be a balance between the two in order to survive. Technology and scientific advancement will only get you so far.

If you zip out into space all big eyed and cowish then you will be taken advantage of and slaughtered, metaphorically if not for real.

If you zip out into space taking with you only the worst of earth with all of its viciousness, then you will quickly find out that there is ALWAYS something bigger and meaner out there that will slap you down. Once again you get nowhere.

Balance is the only way and would be respected more than anything else IMO.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by UltraViolet
There are so many different facets of intelligence. Just because a species has the knowledge that enables them to blow up a planet doesn't make them automatically intelligent, IMO. Emotional wisdom, i.e. the ability to empathize, is one of the most important ways to be intelligent. We're sadly lacking in that on this planet! It's easy to imagine that elsewhere they're way ahead of us as far as that's concerned....

Emotions seem to be a survival trait relative to Mammals. It makes us able to sympathize with one another, be compassionate towards others including other lifeforms, and it allows us to have black hearted hate that fuels periods of hyperviolence like World War 2.

So do we really want an emotional alien who might spas out or a more logical calculating neighbor comparable to a reptile. Who would be more advanced? Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Both would be capable of violence.

I'd prefer a highly emotionally intelligent alien to an emotional one. That's actually what I meant....hate isn't emotionally intelligent because it's destructive, if at the *least* to ourselves. (

Originally posted by Johnmike
"I'm pretty sure aliens have made agreements with government officials."

Oh yes. We know that for sure, evidence is everywhere!

"ETs are higher buildings."

I'm sure they smoke pot all the time.



LOL

Insert meaningful post here? Why not extrapolate and share with us your enlighten down to earth view of how things work instead of post the above?

--

Anyway. Wow cool thread. MikeboydUS, you really have some rather harsh view of the world, I'm guessing you see it as realistic and in some ways I sympathize even though I don't agree with your conclusions.

My personal take on it is that we don't deal well with large or complex perspectives in the sence we can barley grasp the timespan of one generation, even less the perspective of a thousand year and certainly not a million year. Our planet have been around for a good few billion years and that timespan is just simply mind boggling any way you try to grasp it.

We as a species have been around, at least as we know it today, for some 200.000 thousand years. Like a thousand+ years ago we figured out that that the earth isn't flat (still many didn't buy into that, some still don't) and later we figured out that we're not the center of the universe. Still today, we're readily available to make claims such as "evolution is this process defined by these variables. it most certainly works this way here. so this must be so everywhere, and that's that. period", "the speed of light is maximum velocity" and so on and so on (and so on...).

To me it's just, I don't know. A bit ignorant? We're still in our cradle, heck not even that, we're like infants barley out of the womb (but we sure are packing some heat).

And to state that if x and y don't compete with each other will lead to stagnation and eventually death just doesn't make any sense. Evolution, in my view, is and ongoing process and to make statements such as "there will always be war" just doesn't make any sense to me. What if the eradication of y contra x isn't always the the optimum way to go in order to progress, what if evolution proves that the ongoing collaboration of x and y proves to be the "shortest" route of evoloution and leads to progress of both x and y, then wouldn't that be "natural selection"?

Still. The simplest way of "proving" that eventual visitors from outer space are not hostile is the fact that we're still around. If you're able to travel the stars you're certainly way beyond nuclear bombs in means of destruction, so wiping out a planet should be no problem.

If I'd buy any "evil alien" theory I'd perhaps dabble with the notion that we're one giant experiment and we're just a pet zoo project and they are about as "evil" as we are "evil" to the ants we crush on our way to work. Never the less it's sort of an moo point because if that's the case we can do as much about it as the ants can.

It's easy to fear what you don't understand and I'm glad that the consensus of most interested in the "ufo phenomena" (i hate that word, is there an alternative?) is that we indeed have nothing to fear. I'm sure some abductees wouldn't agree but still.. they are around to talk about it, right? And I do think the abduction phenomena will be properly explained in time, a long with a lot of other things.. and my personal take on that is that it's not neccesarily all alien (if any) there. But that's another story.

Cheers ~ L

Originally posted by lasse


It's easy to fear what you don't understand and I'm glad that the consensus of most interested in the "ufo phenomena" (i hate that word, is there an alternative?) is that we indeed have nothing to fear. I'm sure some abductees wouldn't agree but still.. they are around to talk about it, right? And I do think the abduction phenomena will be properly explained in time, a long with a lot of other things.. and my personal take on that is that it's not neccesarily all alien (if any) there. But that's another story.

Cheers ~ L

Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but re what I've quoted....I doubt that the abduction phenomenon ever be explained in a way that sets everyone at ease.
And then....what about all the documented cases of people just disappearing in front of witnesses and not ever returning? I don't envy them!

I agree with the "we don't really know" idea. My argument is based off of biological research on earth. I feel whatever lifeforms exist will need to eat and reproduce to survive. I could be wrong. There may be intelligent plasma living in Nebulae and Stellar Coronas as far as I know that are immortal and just exist.

But here's the problem with that and aliens like that. There comes a point when humans could not relate to it. If it becomes too alien we may not even classify it as life.

So for now I believe if there is alien life it needs to eat and reproduce. It needs to survive and has instincts to do so. Now whether it evolved that way or was made that way is a whole other argument.

And to state that if x and y don't compete with each other will lead to stagnation and eventually death just doesn't make any sense. Evolution, in my view, is and ongoing process and to make statements such as "there will always be war" just doesn't make any sense to me. What if the eradication of y contra x isn't always the the optimum way to go in order to progress, what if evolution proves that the ongoing collaboration of x and y proves to be the "shortest" route of evoloution and leads to progress of both x and y, then wouldn't that be "natural selection"?

If a species turns into race of drones obsessed with peace and mindlessness they would seal their fate. Now this doens't mean they need to be mindless barbarians going about conquering and destroying like galactic Mongols. It just means as a species they need maintain survival instincts.

I don't think aliens are any more evil than us. I have hard time comprehending any species as being as horrorfying as us. If any are, G-d help us. Not invading us doesn't equal benevolent. I'm not sure how that can even be argued. There are plenty of practical reason why we havn't been invaded or wiped out. One would be simply why? Why waste resources to take earth? How would they benefit? If any species has its eyes on earth it needs a good reason, more than just "were evil aliens" to invade a planet.

I could see a benevolent species invading us before a malevolent one. Look at earth, its a mess. If there were aliens who were compassionate like some humans are about other species, I would not be surprised if the galactic version of UN peacekeepers came to disarm the planet and stop all of the fighting. This of course would probably end like the UN mission in Somalia. A malevolent species would probably ignore us and go about realizing the universe does not revolve around earth or humanity. They would care less if we blew ourselves up and may not even consider us intelligent.

It is impossible to determine the motivations, morals, or beliefs of an alien society based upon the knowledge (or lack thereof) currently available. Human views of such matters, particularly good and evil, may be just that: human. They may have no concept of it at all, or their views could even be the opposite of how our society views it. It could also be similar. We don't know.

There is only one reasonable stance for humanity to take based upon the available evidence and that is to consider every scenario of alien contact to be equally plausible until proven otherwise.

In the end, this likely the reality of the situation. Some will be peaceful, some will be imperialistic and quite possibly violent, and some will fit somewhere in between. Their views on humans will likely also cover the entire spectrum of possibilities.

In other words, expect a little of everything.

Originally posted by mizzu
Given the time it would take to develop interstellar space travel, probably 10,000 + years of civilization.It almost would be a certainty that they would have peace with one another otherwise they would have destroyed their world. Look what we have gotten ourselves into in 2- 4000 years.

This is based on an unproven assumption. Furthermore, what is to be said about the abduction victims whose testimony shows that the Greys, at least, are not as friendly as we'd like.

Originally posted by Zhayne
Aliens aren't human so why would they be violent?

I don’t even understand that. Is that meant to be a serious comment? Why is there so much self-loathing of human beings around here?

The fact is that in order to survive in their respective environments, a civilization that is advanced enough to have civilization had to survive the thousands of years where they weren’t at the top of their food chains, assuming of course that they had other animals, which seems to make sense. Violence in that sense would be the order of the day, and evolution would probably have also instilled in them a survival instinct similar to us that would make them in some sense distrusting of others.