Wal-Mart and Target Spy on Their Employees

Like I said before in a thread about we becoming a slave society . . . this is how is going to be, littler by littler our privacy is being eroded in the name of security. . .

But is OK . . . they have the right we the people obviously have not. . .

We are fighting terror abroad and within our own nation and this type of behavior by the big corporations that after all rules the nation is acceptable and will become an everyday issue.

So get ready for the cameras at home, is all in the name of security and is good for you.

[edit on 7-4-2007 by marg6043]

I realise these companies have some legal standing for their actions.

That's why I said right, not law.

Again they and their security have no right to detain and interogate. NONE.

I was not venting on any particular poster - and of course I wouldn't shoot 'em up. There are legal, reasonable ways to be a thorn in these companies sides.

Cavscout on this one I would have to disagree with some of what your saying.
I am the type of guy that stops and lets the door checker check my bag, or stops when the buzzer sounds because they forgot to demagnatize/RFIDkill my DVD. However, I have a friend who is a law enforcement officer, and more then a few times I have been with him and this stuff happens, he just keeps on walking out the door. When I asked him about it , he told me that 1)they have no right to search your bags after you leave the counter and your goods are paid for as it is an illegal search of your property, and 2) if they detain you they better find something on you that you stole. If they do either of these things, and you do not have stolen merchandise on you, then they are in violation of the law themselves and liable for civil prosecution.

Originally posted by cavscout
Don’t like being handcuffed by a rentacop then don’t commit a crime on PRIVATE PROPERTY.

You cuff someone you better be 10000000% in the right, because as a security guard you’re dancing on the limits of your powers of authority when you start using private arrest powers. You best have them hands down, with no question of that fact.

Originally posted by cavscout
Someone better go tell all those bounty hunters out there that they are breaking the law.

A bounty hunter is an entirely different thing, and you should know that. A bounty hunter is someone that captures a Bond Jumper, and when that bond was issued the person receiving that bond signed away all their personal rights to the Bond Holder.

Originally posted by cavscout
I sell pools now. More money and just cant stand to be around pigs.

Yeah they don’t get along to well with security officers, do they…
Though, I agree, being around a lot of them, and not being one of them sucks. A lot of times its like a “boys club” and even if you’re their friend your never really part of the group. It also seams to be the case that the guys who are not full time, front line, road officers are the worst, they flaunt/abuse their power more then any of the others do, almost like they have something to prove. I have known both a person that is a VA police officer, and a DOT police officer, and both introduce themselves as “federal officers”, like they are FBI or something…

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Corporations and their security have NO RIGHT to detain anyone any longer than it takes the REAL police to arrive.

If you have broken the law then they can detain you until law enforcement arrives and turn you over to them. If they detain you and cannot show that you have broken the law, you can ask the officers to arrest them instead.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Bottom line, corporations DO NOT have the right to interrogate. They have the right to hire and fire, period.

If they feel they have to interrogate you then they most likely do not have you hands down and have no right to be holding you. Saying nothing is your best course of action, you don’t even have to answer questions to law enforcement without an attorney present, you certain don’t have to answer a private group. Do like presidents have, and “plead the fifth”…

Originally posted by Togetic
Actually they have the same rights as you and me. I can detain you, but if I do it without reason I have committed the tort of false imprisonment, and maybe assault or battery.

Togetic
Good job…
Exactly correct.

[edit on 4/7/2007 by defcon5]

Defcon

Please, if you are going to quote multiple people in a single thread, be specific about who you are quoting. The way you did your quoting, it makes it look as if you are crediting other members words to me.

Ok, fixed it…
Now I supposed you want to see my receipt.

Originally posted by cavscout
I read the article and nothing sounds out of the ordinary.

I have a VERY extensive security resume, to include loss prevention for some nationwide retail chains NOT listed in the article, and we always followed the same procedure about using the restroom.

Bottom line for most private security is if you think you can prove they stole, put them in handcuffs so they can’t hurt you or themselves. Once they are in handcuffs, no one but the police or EMS removes the cuffs. If they have to use the restroom, to bad. They should have relieved themselves before stealing. After all, are you (the security guard) going to risk a sexual harassment (or worse) charge for “fondling” them? If not security, who else is going to hold it for them? I have personally witnessed several detainees piss themselves, and there is just nothing you can do without risking liability in some form.

I can say is this if my daughter was ever treated the way these kids were. Even though they may or may not have done this. I can say they would be arresting me cause I would cause major hell in that store if that crap was pulled on my kid then after I was bailed out I take the subject up with my daughter but...Someone in that store would carry a few battle scares home.

I'm sure that Walmart and Target have good reason to worry about their employees stealing. I have known two people who worked for Walmart and they both stole stuff to resell on ebay. They were both young employees and neither work there anymore. They were never caught but I guess the amount of merchandise stolen between the two of them was in the thousands of dollars.


[edit on 7-4-2007 by zerotime]

Originally posted by scooler1

Anybody who works or worked for Target or Wal-Mart have a story to share?

www.alternet.org
(visit the link for the full news article)

back in '96, i was a supertendent at a Target store we were remodeling
over in Phoenix AZ.
We ran into a theft problem because of all the confusion of the store personnel doing their functions....
as our remodel crews worked 12 hrs shifts day & night...

TVs, & a lot of bigger ticket items found their way to the garden center where night time thieves could easily scale the chain link fences & claim their booty.~ while our remodel crew was locked in the store till 6AM~

it mattered not if it was the Target employees or the Daytime remodel crew
who was responsible for setting up the stolen merchandise pipeline...
it's just that IF security or theft prevention measures are not initiated....the vermin will devise theivery,
even to the point that the effort to steal stuff, fence it, & remain undiscovered ammounts to a total bust in the risk-v-rewards arena.
[they could have worked a legit job & gotten more $$ with a lot less risk]

some people tend to sink to the lowest level, so co. spying and entrapment schemes seem tit-for-tat, what's so different of having
sponsered covert operations by the corp. to insure its assets from
'loss'...than having the stereotypical brown-noser telling the boss or supervisor about the goings on of the staff at work or at their home??

[edit on 7-4-2007 by St Udio]

I agree with Marge, our forbearer's fought hard for rights that protected us from arbitrary power. The rights are being dismantled.

From the link in the first post:

Unless, as Lynn argues, they were really after him for what is a far worse crime in Wal-Mart's books: Openly criticizing the conditions he found in Central American factories supplying Wal-Mart stores.

Cheaper to hire a spy to trump up charges on an employee with a conscience and some courage than to treat employees as though they deserve some dignity in their lives.

The vast majority of thefts from stores are done by employees. The new information age makes all criminal records available to employers, there are people who've been fired after the employer caught wind of a minor misdeed that may have happened years before.

Since when was a relationship between two employees at Wal Mart unethical, is it suddenly teacher/student, doctor/patient, psychologist/client? Puts the spin of yet another symbol of false authority insinuated into the slur job.

Monsters, all of them.

I've searched around and hope I understand this. The legal jargon and convoluted reasoning is REALLY difficult to navigate. But here are my conclusions, admittedly not totally verified as yet. I'm posting this before having definitive evidence (something I rarely do) because I'm hoping some of you here might come up with something really solid.

Under any conditions, you only can be detained for "probable cause," but, since our Constitution insists that you be considered innocent until proven guilty, you must be shown the evidence that underpins their probable cause. It must be concrete, verifiable evidence, so hearsay evidence is insufficient in and of itself. The store security people cannot say, "So-and-so says you did this" or "you were seen doing that." They can add that to concrete, but otherwise inconclusive evidence to create a "preponderance of evidence," and then they have a right to detain you. Lacking that, they cannot hold you any longer.

Nor can they "restrain" you without probable cause. They simply can't assume there is a possibility you are dangerous, because here too, they must have probable cause. Even when they have established probable cause (really a nebulous and/or ambiguous term anyway), they must notify the authorities "in a timely manner" (more ambiguity). I can't help but wonder how a store can use restrains at will, when hospitals have a lengthy set of conditions to meet before restraining a patient. Ditto rest homes and mental institutions.

Theoretically, anything you say to someone who isn't a bona fide law enforcement agent isn't admissible in a court of law. It's hearsay. Or the detainee could claim his or her statements were coerced. No Miranda Rights can be read because only a law enforcement officer can read a suspect his or her rights. Under any and all circumstances, a person can call for legal representation at any time and all interrogation must stop immediately and law enforcement called in while the person waits for his or her lawyer.

Any of breaches of a person's legal civil rights, as in the cases discussed here, are grounds for charges of false arrest and false imprisonment against the stores. One really difficult section I read also seems to indicate that the store might be held liable for kidnapping. I'm quite unsure of this item as there seems to be some definition problems regarding a national company, interstate commerce and crossing state lines which could render the detention of an employee a federal crime. Again, I'm really unsure of this and hope someone has or can find, factual, verifiable information one way or another on this or any item herein.

Originally posted by cavscout
A citizen in the employ of a private corporation my detain a person (even if that means handcuffs) they have reasonable cause to believe has committed an illegal act. In most states it is referred to as a citizen's arrest or as an arrest by a private citizen.

Educate yourself.


Oh, and just in case you are wondering if I know what I am talking about I posses a degree in Criminal Justice with an emphasis on private security. I have worked as loss prevention for 3 companies, 2 of them nation wide retailers. I have also worked as the Director of Operations for a large private security firm, as a instructor and tactical advisor to a large police department, as the LT of Housing Authority for a major city and have served on the personal executive protection team of one of Forbes 10 richest people in the world. I can arrest you, charge you with a crime and send you to court for minor infractions without even calling the police, other than obtaining from them an event number for the report, all under the LVMPD SILA program. I can also run your ID and get all the information a police officer can, to include home address, SSN, DOB, licenses held, and wanted information. You would be surprised just how much a private citizen can do through the proper channels if you would just educate your self about the subject.

That life, however, is behind me.
[edit on 7-4-2007 by cavscout]

Most states don't dole out that much power to private security. I'm guessing Nevada has these private security laws because of the casinos in Vegas. Here in California a private security, armed or unarmed is nothing more than a citizen ... has no more powers than any other private citizen. Yes, they do have the power to "citizen arrest" and can detain people with handcuffs and yes if they choose to submit to a "interrogation" then that's the idiots fault for talking to private security. They in no way have the power to issue a citation that makes it way into the criminal justice system.

I can see the benefits and draw backs of this type of system and I prefer the current system here in California. If your store security and you catch someone embezzeling by all means arrest and detain but you got turn them over to the PD or SO in order for any charges to be filed (other than some sort of civil law suit).

I don't want some store "cop" detaining me because they feel they have a right to. If I worked somewhere and they felt they had good cause to believe I stole they can "question" me and I can leave at any point I want to or they can "arrest" me and call the real PD to handle the investigation.

FYI, most states citizens arrest powers are not for probable cause or reasonable belief that a crime was committed ... but the citizen WITNESSED a crime being committed. Here in Calif even a peace officer can't arrest someone for a misdemeanor that wasn't committed in their prescence let alone JOE CITIZEN.

Originally posted by Ex
I agree......
This Big Brother Thread IS Scary!
An 80 cent indiscretion.........

I am also wondering how long are you allowed to detain
someone against their will????

While I don't really agree with the idea of private security detaining someone for hours on end under the guise of "citizen arrest" it also wasn't a 80 cent indiscretion. It was the same as stealing 80 cents out of the register ... you know the rules of employee discounts or price reductions and if you intentionally reduce a price then it is theft.

Where do you draw the line ... $2 .. $5 ... $10 ... why not $100?? I guess it's more of a matter of personal ethics. Sure a 80 cent mistake shouldn't cost someone their job ... but that's different.

Originally posted by defcon5
Though, I agree, being around a lot of them, and not being one of them sucks. A lot of times its like a “boys club” and even if you’re their friend your never really part of the group. It also seams to be the case that the guys who are not full time, front line, road officers are the worst, they flaunt/abuse their power more then any of the others do, almost like they have something to prove. I have known both a person that is a VA police officer, and a DOT police officer, and both introduce themselves as “federal officers”, like they are FBI or something…

I find this very amusing, and very believable. But most police officers I know will evade the question when asked and will certainly never introduce themselves to people out of their circle as an officer. The most common is "I work for the city" ... if pressed further "I clean the streets".

It's kind of like the vanity plates here in California ... the firefighters have a special plate where if they show proof they are an active firefighter they can get a plate with a firemans hat on it. And the ones that don't have that have the Firefighter Union stickers all over them. I have yet to see a cop that advertises their job to the world on the back of their, or worse yet thier spouses car.

Most officers are just a little paranoid and they sure as heck don't want who knows aware of what job they do. All that does is make you a target for someone because they know where you work.

Sorry if anyone mentioned this, but it's late and I'm getting tired. A friend of mine worked at Walmart and told me that security will pick people that they think have the potential to steal and actually follow them around the store with the cameras. They can even zoom in and read the registers in most places. If you want privacy find a delivery job, because any business can have cameras watching there employees even if it is to make sure they are doing their job.

In the state of Ohio where I live.. Security and Loss prevention CANNOT detain someone with handcuffs, its called "Wrongful imprisonment" and will cost them a year in prison and up to $1000 in fines.

Only police may arrest someone and cuff them, Citizens arrests apply ONLY to felony crimes..

And if someone held my child to interrogate them, or to the point that they lost control of their bladder, they would be explaining themselves while begging me to release my very large hands from around their throats.

Now some states do have Security officers who can arrest people, but they are subject to the laws as well, if they were to question ANYONE, they must have witnesses present. It cant be done alone.

And as for the bounty hunter remarks made earlier, in alot of states, bounty hunting is illegal, for example not long ago in Kentucky a fugitive recovery agent from ohio entered a house and detained a subject wanted for non appearance in court, the recovery agent was arrested by local police for breaking and entering, assault and wrongful imprisonment for kicking in the door, beating the guy down and cuffing him..

Just goes to show people should take more care in their jobs or they put themselves and their companies at risk of prosecution

[edit on 8-4-2007 by Ox]

While at times I have little choice, as a rule I avoid the big box stores and especially wal-mart like the plague. I have strong ethicial objections to their policies and behavior and would prefer to give my business and money to local businesses even if that means I pay a little bit more. To do so supports local merchants, local people and the community and keeps the money where it will do the most good... in my town as opposed to siphoning it off to corporate headquarters some place.

Originally posted by cavscout

So you did steal, or rather, embezzle. Sounds like they had good reason to be watching you.

That's pretty poor.

Every store I worked in when I was young gave discount cards to me, I had a limit on how much I could get off and anyone could use the card. Me, my family, friends, etc, as long as I was there to use it.

I mean honestly, how sad is that to not allow discounts to people that close to you?

Originally posted by zerotime
I have known two people who worked for Walmart and they both stole stuff to resell on ebay.

Good on them.

It is about time people start to put this slave society down. Walmart do not:
Pay fair prices to their workers.
Pay fair prices to those who they buy from.
Trade fairly.

How many towns have been run dry because of Walmart or stores like them?

Do you really want to live in a World where there are 5 or 10 chain stores and that is it?

My brother is a Rentacop after reading your post he advised me to ask you a few questions about your claims and says the private sector has more rights than retail.

I must first state I do not in courage or condone shop lifting But:

Retail cannot in any way search you without consent If you tell them NO all they can do is call the police and ask you to leave (he says they call the police before the thief even knows there on to them) And even when the cops respond they cannot search you without probable cause or a warrant. Thats where the video of the thief shoving a gallon of milk down his pants comes in.

If the retailer does stop a theif and detain him and he states he had enough and wants to go now and you do not let him YOU could be charged with false apprehension and assault.

It is not stealing until you walk out the 1st set of doors thats why most big retail chains have the lobby between the exit entrance with private vending machines and games. Thats where most theifs are stopped.

You must see a shoplifter either when they enter your store or approach a display and that he/she does not have any merchandise in their hand or that they haven't retrieved a item from their own purse, bag or pocket. This step prevents a common mistake that occurs when a customer brings an item back to the store for a return and does not check in at the return desk first. If you detain someone after seeing them replace their own merchandise into their pocket or bag, you could be subject to a false arrest claim although it is a seemingly honest mistake. Many false arrest claims are filed because retailers missed this important, but basic, first step.

You must see the shoplifter select the merchandise. Store employees can misunderstand when they see a customer innocently put an item into their pocket or purse and not realize that the customer had brought the item into the store with them for comparison purposes. If you can positively and honestly state that you saw the shoplifter remove your merchandise from your display prior to concealing it, then you have a strong foundation for proof of shoplifting.

You must maintain continuous surveillance of the shoplifter. If your store policy is to detain and apprehend all shoplifters, then you must adhere strictly to this step. Experienced shoplifters will try to dump the concealed merchandise, without your knowledge, if they believe they have been observed. Many states have adopted merchant statutes to protect the retailer against this trick. If you followed steps 1-3 and then lost sight of the shoplifter for several minutes you may be surprised when you detain them and they are no longer holding your merchandise. The best approach, if you loose sight of a shoplifter, is to make your presence know to the shoplifter and give them a chance to dump your merchandise and leave your store without a word being said. Sometimes, loss prevention personnel will walk nearby and turn up their mobile radios to alert the shoplifter that they are plain-clothes security. Another technique is to make a storewide P.A. announcement for security to come to the Children's department, for example, which is where the shoplifter happens to be standing. They will usually dump your merchandise immediately and may never return.

You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store. Although not technically necessary, following this step eliminates all possibility that the shoplifter still intends to pay for the stolen product. A few courts have held that detaining someone for shoplifting inside a retail store does not establish the criminal intent of theft. However, in several states shoplifters can be detained once they have concealed the merchandise. When approaching a shoplifter outside of the store always have a least one trained employee as a witness. There is safety in numbers and most shoplifters will cooperate if they believe fighting or running is futile. When you approach a shoplifter outside it is important to identify yourself clearly and your authority for stopping them. Plain-clothes loss prevention agents carry badges or official looking ID cards so the shoplifter has no doubt who they are. Most shoplifter apprehensions should be accomplished with no force or if necessary, minimal force like touching or guiding. Professional loss prevention agents sometimes will use handcuffs to take someone into custody, if they are first trained how and when to legally apply them properly.

Basically the rentacop is or should be aware the Thief has more rights but the thief is not aware of said rights which retacops exploit.


Source

AlBeMeT

I worked for Wal-Mart for two months years ago and that was enough for me.After finding out about many of the ways they have of screwing their employees I will no longer shop at Wal-Mart either.A super center opened in the town I live in and well I'm 34 and can remember businesses that were here when I was a kid that had to close their doors because they just couldn't compete with Wal-Mart.Two grocery stores a clothing store, a craft type store(yarns,fabrics),and a sporting goods store all gone.And now because of the cheap drugs at Wal-Mart the Pharmacy here in town that's been here as long as I can remember is talking of closing.I've seen the gas station just down the street change ownership three times in the last year because the station at Wal-Mart even has cheaper gas(usually about 3 cents cheaper).In fact the only businesses in town not suffering because of Wal-Mart are the auto parts stores,fast food places, and car dealerships.


But what amazes me is the folks here argued with the city council not to bring the supercenter in because they all knew what would happen to the town but yet they flock to that damn store like it's the pied piper and they're the rats.

I can believe the article in this thread ...If you do something that goes against Wal-Mart or speak out or complain they try to find a way to fire you or cut your hours so much you have no choice but to quit.Saw it happen to a guy that got moved from sporting goods to grocery because one of the managers sons wanted to work in sporting goods.When the guy threw a fit he got bumped from full time to a few days a week.This was a grown man with a family to support...screwed because some young brat who's daddy had the power wanted to work in his area.I had to listen to the poor guy cuz I was also in grocery.