Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

reply to post by troppo_ozstyle


AYE

Traditions are one of the points that bind us into a band of brothers.

Most of the Grand Lodges reevaluate traditions in the light of changing times. But the primary tenants are not likely to change. Specifics of the oaths and the landmarks of freemasonry are the least likely to change. An example of the willingness to change is that in some of the Grand Lodge jurisdictions they are experimenting with dropping the memory work and inviting men to join.

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle


The thing is, my observations of the behaviour and attitudes of participants of this thread has swayed me away from Masonry to some degree. There are a few things I have concerns about as a potential new member. If those concerns are not met, I simply will not join. No biggie right?

Right. Only you can make that decision after searching your heart.

As for the attitudes of the people on this thread, I'd like to address a couple of points. Obviously, Masons on this forum take the fraternity seriously. As Masons, we should always exhibit kindness and respect for others, but as fallible men, we don't always succeed. When something we hold sacred is maligned, libeled, and many times purposefully lied about, it is all too easy to become angered. This is not an excuse, but is just human nature.

Personally, at least for me, it was the attitudes of the critics of Masonry who helped sway in the direction of the fraternity.

The problem for me is how to ask about those concerns without putting anyone offside.

Just ask. If you are an honest inquirer, nobody's going to get upset with your questions or comments. The problem is that many people come here, and other places, posing as honest researchers, but who in reality have an agenda, and despise us and our fraternity (usually for reasons that aren't even true).

reply to post by troppo_ozstyle



No worries friend.
I don't take anything you're saying personally, as you're not trying to establish a degree of intellectual superiority over me (and failing miserably like someone else up on this site).
I like your attitude towards the approach.
Of course you remain skeptical, it would be foolish otherwise.

I could make the suggestion of finding a local lodge and just going down there and talking to some of the brothers.
We have nights where the lodge is open to the public and we have dinners and all sorts of stuff going on.
Perhaps in sitting down and meeting with them, you can come to a finite decision.
I'm not trying to recruit you, hell, I don't even know you.
I'm just trying to set your mind at ease because, obviously, the craft holds at least some interest for you.

My advice, go see for yourself.
You might be pleasantly surprised.

Let me know if I can help you in any way.
Okay?

Namaste

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.

Masonic Student: Thanks for your vote and explanation. I got the impression from Wu's original reply that this might be the case. I am glad to hear the Lodge is open to re-evaluating traditions as opposed to holding fast regardless.

It's not the tradition I mind so much as the lack of re-examination in light of contemporary knowledge/society/attitudes. Suffice it to say, there are some acts carried out in modern society in the name of tradition that I find truly barbaric. I should mention here, the examples I have in mind do not concern Masonry in any way.

Masonic Light: Given the nature of the forum, I would say that Masons who participate most likely experience more criticism than the average brother, and therefore more prone to frustration than most. Not only is it understandable, but expected to a degree. I'll just say there isn't always a hidden agenda when someone questions masonic practices.

Indeed, it was some of the more outlandish claims by critics in other areas of the forum that first made me somewhat sympathetic and led me to this thread. I have my opinions on the arguments on both sides but clearly I am not in a position to confirm or deny either at this point.

wu kung:Yeah mate I've already looked up the location of the nearest Lodge, it's only about 10 minutes away. I was unaware there were nights open to the public though, thanks for the tip. Going down and asking about the next public function seems like the next logical step, certainly I'll feel more comfortable asking questions face to face.

Thanks again for replying.

reply to post by troppo_ozstyle

I am glad to hear the Lodge is open to re-evaluating traditions as opposed to holding fast regardless.

Times change, and the traditions do to naturally, though I would say there is an effort to remain as original as possible. As ML pointed out one example is the memorizing part. Many Masons are very much against "1 day calsses" for new members, my self included.. I would prefer it remain the same as it is. The main excuse for changing it is if we make it "easy" then more people will join .. if people find it takes work they stay away .. I would prefer the ones who want no work to stay away because they may not put work into the lodge its self. If someone goes the traditional way I get the sense they are more connected, and involved.

It's not the tradition I mind so much as the lack of re-examination in light of contemporary knowledge/society/attitudes. Suffice it to say, there are some acts carried out in modern society in the name of tradition that I find truly barbaric. I should mention here, the examples I have in mind do not concern Masonry in any way.

I see what you mean, but the traditions on topic here have more to do with actual ritual traditions. Social and mindset traditions are changed as society changes, not as Masonry changes, though social changes could have some effect on Masonry. One example is racism has greatly decreased, no longer do lodges refuse members of other races, as that was a social custom of another time, society is more tollerent and thus, Masonry changes, like any institution.

I'll just say there isn't always a hidden agenda when someone questions masonic practices.

You learn to find out those who do. Some we can point out easily, others show themselves eventually.

I was unaware there were nights open to the public though, thanks for the tip.

Not all lodges do. My lodge opened the Masonic Center only 4 years ago I believe, before that only Masons could enter. As of now all of our rooms are still closed off, only the ballroom and so forth are open to the public for events. Once a year we have a big add in the paper and we invite everyone to a dinner and hundreds of people walk around the building, 7 floors, so we have alot of traffic and a lot to see! I love it when a conspiracy nut with a real agenda goes on a tour, the questions they ask can be hysterical.

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle


It's not the tradition I mind so much as the lack of re-examination in light of contemporary knowledge/society/attitudes.

What would you then suggest?

My apologies again folks...I've been a little absorbed with catching up on another thread in the alien section.

Rockpuck: Thanks for the comments, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

ML: I'm a bit loathe to suggest anything without a full understanding of the purpose and meaning of Masonic practices so perhaps an unrelated analogy might help.

Ringing Church bells to announce a service.
This is one of those things where I ask myself "is it really necessary?" and I find the answer to be no.

At the risk of upsetting some of the more conventional religious types, it's one of those traditions that I think is beyond it's use by date.

I'm not a church-goer, since boarding school I really only attend for weddings/funerals/christenings and make the occasional effort to go when I'm visiting parents for special occasions such as Easter or Christmas. That said, if others wish to go, more power to them, I think no less of my mother for being a regular attendee.

A bit of research turned up a purpose for the ringing of bells, to announce a service would be beginning. In those days of course, literacy and numeracy were fairly rare skills and timepieces rarer still, so there was a meaningful purpose. In this day and age, with clocks on every appliance and most people able to read a calender/diary, I think the purpose has lost it's meaning. Also with the upgraded transportation, many parisioners live out of earshot of the bells anyway. Lets face it, in the 21st century people are either going to church or they aren't, ringing bells is not likely to affect the attendance in any way.

It's a relatively harmless tradition but it does affect people who aren't religious.

I should mention this is something I find to be a relatively minor annoyance (not so minor when I was doing shift works 6 days and really enjoyed my Sunday sleep-in) and I'm not about to go lobby the church or government to have it outlawed, just pointing out that sometimes these things getting overlooked during reviews. The irony is that after I'm woken by the bells at 6.30am, I can't go and do anything that makes noise until 9am (like mow the lawn) due to noise pollution laws.

If I wanted to inquire about the truths of Freemasonry, I certainly wouldn't ask the wannabes and lurkers on this board. Apparently having a Freemason-esque avatar means you know everything about the society.

reply to post by ModernDystopia



Soo what your saying is that you do not believe any Mason here that is claiming to be a Mason is not actually a Mason, and is making everything they say up for enjoyment purposes?

I suppose I must admit, I know nothing of Masonry.. I better go watch some Youtube videos to get better educated.

Originally posted by ModernDystopia
If I wanted to inquire about the truths of Freemasonry, I certainly wouldn't ask the wannabes and lurkers on this board. Apparently having a Freemason-esque avatar means you know everything about the society.

As opposed to some Nietzsche wannabe who has never set foot in a Lodge room?

Stop embarassing yourself.

reply to post by ModernDystopia



Now was that really necessary?
And in all seriousness, what was the point of such comments?

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by Masonic Student
To all the brothers here and anyone intrested.

Simlply out of curiosity, how many hold to the "from the operative" theory and how many hold to the "from the english templars" theory? Or a third or fourth theory for that matter? I'm refering to the origens of Free Masonry.

As for me I've come around to the "from the english templars" theory myself.

It is my belief (and I do intend to investigate next year in Scotland) that when the Templar where persecuted the Scots harbored and assisted in protecting Templar activity off the coast of Scotland, citing the Templar navy engaged in pirate activity against the English and French disrupting trade in retaliation..

While in hiding living as normal Scots would, they took in local folk lore and various Gaelic culture, mixing with Christianity, Judaism and various other mythological religions..

It came together after I would say 150 years or so of hiding into an actual brother hood, fashioned after Gaelic Druidic orders, including the three degrees to membership and so on..

The Templar / Masonic groups even engaged in several battles with the Scotts against the English ensuring their protectorates survival until they willingly signed over to the United Kingdom, which I believe was very much so Masonic involved..

There is quite a bit of evidence I see to support my claims, including in Roslyn Chapel all over the walls and pillars is...... the Green Man..





An estimated 150 green men reside in Roslyn Chapel.

The Green Man is most typically within Gaelic culture expressed in association with rebirth.

Within the craft its self I see as the most significant indications to Gaelic influences within the verbal communication -- every thing must be memorized, the objective is threw word of mouth are the secrets of the craft pass down to those seeking further or more light, and the degree system its self which Gaelic culture in the form of druidic religions have used for thousands of years.

This is just a very short description of my hypothesis.. I can't wait for the chance to study early Masonic architecture and literature in Scotland for my self.

A question to go along with your therory. Doo you beleive that Masons/Templars/Scotts whom ever built Roslyn Chapel came to America before anyone esle due to the Maze (corn) and flowering plants that are carved into Roslyn that exist nowhere else in the world (at the time)

reply to post by HizToyz


I absolutely believe that the Templars came to North America before the other, more famous European expeditions.
Elsewhere in this thread (I think, or at least somewhere else up on ATS) is the Merica star theory.
Also, I've read multiple sources (of which all of them escape my mind currently) that state that when Europeans began exploring and settling North America, they claimed to have found many Templar ruins previously established and already razed.
I'd like for some of the more learned brothers up here to help expand on these stories as I would like to know more about it myself.
And Hiztoyz, please feel free to add to the conversation anything that you happen to discover during the course of your research.
We're happy to have you up here.

Originally posted by wu kung
reply to post by HizToyz

 

And Hiztoyz, please feel free to add to the conversation anything that you happen to discover during the course of your research.
We're happy to have you up here.

Thank you so much. I have studied the Masons in great detail before I decided to join (app is in). I concider myself more a lover of history then a consperacy buff.

reply to post by HizToyz


www.abovetopsecret.com...

After reading this thread by me, you will get the general idea.

Of course, my theory is shared by few, and does not represent any other Masons opinion or feeling. We all believe different theories of our origins. This is part of mine, yes.

According to Rockefeller there are two types of Masons. Those who are in the know of the grand plan and those who are not. Strange links to devil worshiping too. They don't care what God you believe in as long as you do because most who believe in a God also believe in a Devil. Just look at all the facts about the Masons. # read there own books, nuff said.

Originally posted by dark_matter06
According to Rockefeller there are two types of Masons. Those who are in the know of the grand plan and those who are not. Strange links to devil worshiping too. They don't care what God you believe in as long as you do because most who believe in a God also believe in a Devil. Just look at all the facts about the Masons. # read there own books, nuff said.

By this I will assume you mean M&D by Pike. Hasnt this been talked about enough for ANYONE to realize that there is no reference to "Lucifer" in the bible being Satan? That this was developed by Milton in his poem "Paradise Lost" written in 1667 when May 20 is the Chatholic feast day of St. Lucifer. Lucifer being Latin meaning "Light Bringer". en.wikipedia.org... . That we could all take Pike's writings and use them as a buffet and pick and choose sections to quote so that it reads how we want instead of reading it out as a whole. What of the Mason's around the world who couldnt even guess who Pike was. How do you decide that THEY are Satan worshipers? (that was an actual question)

reply to post by HizToyz


Bravo! .. I think you'll make a great Mason. Already shouting down the perils of ignorance that will surround you as a Mason.



Rockefeller is not a Mason, no one in the whole family is to my knowledge, and thus has no say as to what a Mason is or what they do..

There is no secret of the Elite, because we ELECT the Elite in Masonry (the supposed elite being those who run Masonry) .. In fact I was just in Cincinnati for the voting of the new Grand Master. You will only ever know Masonry untill you ARE a Mason. Damn. Is that so hard to understand?

I have some new questions.
On rings. Do the colors Blue, Red, Black backgrounds mean anything? I was reading once some where that the blue was the blue lodge the red the scottish rite. Whats the black? or is that all hog wash and the color is just there to match your eyes!

When are you a "Mason"? is the 1st degree considered a Mason or only when your 3rd degree? Are you not a brother until your a MM?

Whats your home lodge? If I become a MM at Lodge A in VA and move to MA and join a new lodge what do i call each? Then there is the payments due I pay both or can I stop paying VA and only pay MA? So confused.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by HizToyz

 

Bravo! .. I think you'll make a great Mason. Already shouting down the perils of ignorance that will surround you as a Mason.

Thank you very much.