Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

Originally posted by Rockpuck

There are many, many ways that democracy will lead to Tyranny, and if you focus on Masonry as its cause, you will only be helping the rise of Tyranny. Tyranny comes openly, accepted with open arms, it will not take a secret to have the consolidation of federal power reach a tipping point. We are no different then Rome in this aspect, and Rome formed its Empire through ambition, not secrets.

also, would you not think it ironic that it was in the age of Enlightenment, when Masonic principles helped form the United States and started the free world, FIGHTING tyranny???? It would seem, Tyranny is not something Masons believe in. Hence we have been a democratic institution long before the founding of this Nation.

Men like King George had far more to fear from the ideas which Masonry is founded then free men like your self.

Tryanny is in part from lack of education or information of what is really going on behidn closed doors. So people let it walk right in.

secrecy leads to abuse of power. Thats why constituion includes accountability. And some say the elite take over of the passions of the masses was to curb the uprising emotions and direct it at the king instead of the continental land owners.

I'm sorry I didn't know they were democratic, where do I cast my vote.

reply to post by Redge777


I must say, as much as I disagree with you, it has been the light of my day to contest you.

Yes as did the masons, but when the threat went away, they came into the open. Masons have not, I only purpose a possible reason for that.

Aigh, they came to the open when it suited them. however the Church fought them, the Protestants AND the Church fought us. But, when the threat was gone, as was the secret. Masons used to meet in dark halls, in God knows what location. Membership was secretive, temples where disguised and hardly was there even a rumor of its existance until it was publicly anounced that they formed the UGLE. Since then, we have not been a secret society, revealed even more in the Age of Information. I speak the truth friend, when I say we hold no secrets.

Think of it as a Taboo for us to speak of our initiation and other rituals. You can find the texts, you can find the interpretations of symbols, you can find the rosters of officers... the Age of Information hides nothing.. but again, we do not talk about it..... we talk about EVERYTHING but that. Its a Taboo if you will. We even openly admit what goes on in lodge.. we pay bills, so on and so forth. Again, why do you think so few bother to show up.. the join thinking something beyond their imagination, in flared by their desire to be apart of .. what ever they think it is.. and get disappointed by the mundane meetings of paying the rent and power bills..

The only way a mason would push masonry is to speak of it, then require trust that what they say is true.

Why would we lie? What benefit do we gain by tricking people? What good would come to a initiate if he is lied to from the beginning? The rituals are kept secret from him, but quite honestly.. the venture would not have the same effect if you knew what was coming around every corner. The journey is what binds us. Have you no respect for that?

I gave an example of British soldier, and other postings referred to percentage of wealth power holders. I don't need to prove it, but if you deny it I think you are being disingenuous.

There are wealthy people in my lodge. One is a President of a corporation. Our previous WM has his own company. Several others are very, very well off. The vast majority are second shift workers at local factories, mills, labs ect, ect, ect.. everyone from CEO to Mortgage officers. And me, I make a months salary to some in a year. Does that mean the wealthy conspire when we are not looking? Please. We elect the leaders of the lodge, and we , regardless of wealth class or any other boundary carry on. NEVER is wealth discussed "I have more then you" .. No, that is not our way.

In every organization the rich and powerful reside, each of them for their own reasons. The Governor of Ohio is a Mason. Did he become governor because he was a Mason? No.. he joined while in office. Not to the Grand Lodge, nor any renowned lodge. A small town lodge.

I think you seek the worst in us in every direction, with that I cannot help you, and if my words fall deaf to you, I am sorry.. for you will carry on with spite to a group that deserves far more then you give them credit for.

Many Christians do things that make me cringe.

Many Humans do things that make me cringe. Not just Christians.

the fact that your society is closed allows that floating opportunity to be congregated within that group.

We are an open society. Many of my friends, mostly college students are in the process of becoming brothers. They had but to ask. To be one, ask one.

You can join for business connections, no one will read you mind to see your real desire.. but that is the next biggest disappointment imo, as many join expecting a rush to the top, and remain stagnant.

I don't think you can deny that.

I will not deny that Masons have helped other Masons achieve good jobs, careers, ect.. eventually to wealth. But I will adamantly deny that Masonry as an institution 1. encourages such actions and 2. institutionalizes such actions. Personal choices, Masonry does not govern our members with an iron fist.

And personally, I find nothing wrong with it. Its not what you know, who you are and what you can do.

Its who you know.

And the same can be found in EVERY corner of society, regardless of religion, society, community.

I can accept a higher class of people join masons, but they also go even higher because of that,

Masonry gives no tools to do any such thing.

not just because of there own merits. And some of the limitations for people is simply economic, they do not have the time nor money to join up.

I would say 80% of all Masons are upper middle to - middle class and below. Probably much, much higher percentage. My lodge is one of the most known in my area, yet we are a "solar" lodge who meets in the mornings instead of at night to accommodate our working class second shift factory workers.

I may become rich, I certainly feel I will. And I take my Masonic teachings with me where ever I go, and I tell all who will listen, I believe in the society, its teachings and its history, but never will I admit that because of Masonry that it will enable me to be any better a men economically then before. It is through personal merit alone.

Some may abuse the system, some may net work, as humans that is natural, how you find anything sinister I don't know.

I commented on an group furthering opportunity picking its members, someone said anyone can join, the fact that they can be not allowed challenges that argument, it was a direct reply to anyone can join. Anyone can join that fits the mold.

They say it is very, very rare that a man is turned down through the Investigation committee.. It had been a few years since it happened, though I saw a man denied.. and I can assure you the reason for that was very well placed. I would have been angered to have to sit next to a man of such ignorance. Your right. We can deny anyone we please, but it is very rare it happens, and when it happens, it is almost always in good cause for the sake of the Craft. Only men of good moral fiber may join.

I know you don't agree, I only say why hide it if it is not that, or does not look like that.

Tradition mate.

You call belief that some devil worship ignorance, I can tell you first hand it is real, demons exist they do enter this world and manipulate events, spiritual powers exist.

Evil exist, but the only demons are men.

I also know some masons have views on crafts, some think spiritually some attach it solely to science. But this delves off into you believing me something I do not ask you to do. Just imagine I am right for a second, that is my world perspective. And being the one who is right, the ignorance label does not apply.

In your mind your thoughts are rational, no one can contest that, but in our Age of Reason, you cannot assume most believe you. I have admitted I do not consider myself Christian by any measure, you would label me Pagan, of some sort, and you would call my beliefs Devil Worship. I believe there is an infinite way to worship God, and I believe my God, is your God, is the Jews God, is the Hindus God, even the Naturist God.. that all is one, under guise of different names, numerous worship, it is not any one mans right to dicate another belief. That is why Masonry does not demand you worship Christianity .. or Judaism, or any other religion. Again. remember Wu's words..

Its not what we believe, but that we believe.

Where we differ is I believe those worshiping things like the druid spirits are misguided. I know, I know, but I really believe it from person experience.

That is your view, I suppose, and believe it as you will friend.. but why should peoples of different faiths conform? I am a free man, and as such I am free to believe as I wish. Regardless of your experience, no one will push religion on me.

This is where the whole conversation breaks down. Because I literally believe you are doing something dangerous even though you do not know it.

I can assure you, we do not endanger our selves. That is for us to decide, and I wish you did not spite my brothers because of it. Free men of Free mind, Free to choose our methods of brother hood.

Hey I trust the Lord, he is going to save people and find a way.

I am an honest man, and I give far more then 10% of my very meager wealth to charity every year. Never have I broken the law, and never have I attacked without just cause. You still claim I need to be saved. I can assure you, I am a far better man then many Christians I know.

I just think you should explain the rituals and allow people to have a clean view of them before they are standing being ask to say certain words. This is not my agenda, I rally against secrets elsewhere that do not have rituals also.

*sigh* .. Never once in my initiation did I EVER face a moment when I was not told what was happening, what to expect, its a reliance on trust in another human, as I said, it looses its value when its been explained already.

reply to post by Redge777

As far as unwilling worship, the worship of that which is not the true God is a rejection of God

I out right tell you I reject Christian Lore. I am not being Hoodwinked, I promise. Though you may wonder, I am fairly certain I am rather intelligent, I think I would see what I am doing. Aside from that, Masonry has no method of Worship, it is 100% void of Dogma.

Even if you think it means nothing, I disagree and believe it opens the door to demonic activity. Yup, and that's from personal experience.

I do not believe in Demons, nor Demonic Activity, and I certainly do not see Masonic values as sinister. Straight away, me not believing in Demons means i cannot "worship" a demon. I do not know how to make you understand.

In my beliefs, there is no such thing as hell.

There really is nothing I can say about this, it is belief orientated, I can believe you are opening demon doorways , and you can believe I am ignorant narrow minded. Hows this, when we are in heaven we will finally agree and we can discuss it then. Notice this comment even follows my belief.

I sense your Baptist, and you do not agree with alcohol, as thus, your heaven is void of beer.. and that I will not stand for, so you can come to my version of heaven when we pass on, where there is plenty of beer!

I really wasn't asking, I was just making sure I was not claiming it as fact since I do not know it for sure. And you don't only lie, there is just know way to know if you are lieing, since you have a motive to.

You never know anything for certain, as nothing is for certain, even the truth can be a lie. I would advise you have better trust in your fellow man.

I not only expect less, I demand less in a equal society. In the British soldier example, save them all not just the Mason. Or save the one with kids and a wife at home, not just a mason, or save the youngest, or save the one who surrendered. Your fellowship, and the fact that you have a broad base in power does not give you right to two tier justice. Unless you consider yourself better then others. I see your statement as corruption.

This is not a society of equals, who ever told you this was wrong, but even so, that is not important to the discussion. I help my family before others, I help my friends before others, and I help my brothers before others, then my self as needed, and what I can spare without further harm to my self, I give to all I can spare. That is my way. I do not expect you to agree. Our society .. from Blue Lodge dinners to Shriner circuses .. we help thousands, every here, millions upon millions of dollars.. our lodge donates 100% of proceeds.. we fund our bills through personal checks from members, and when needed, we literally work for it.. working concession stands, anything really.. I personally can do very little in the scope of things.. my income hardly suffices for my own family, do you expect me to save the world?

And I can assure you in this. My lodge does more for our community then my Church ever dreamed of.

your missing the point, you ask me to trust you, as you keep secrets, and defend preferential treatment.

How do I trust someone so skeptical? How do I trust a man I cannot see eye to eye? Have a little faith.

Actually any mason who helps a mason out of legal jam(like parking ticket) probably is a criminal.

Its not unheard of, I give you that. Wide spread? No. Do Masons run around shooting at will, speeding off crazy like down highways? Do we get away with murder, even tax fraud????

NO

It is against our own oath to support someone who has committed a felony. They would be, and have been, expelled.

And why friend, are secret societies by nature bad? Conspiring against the populace? PLEASE. We are a conserved society, we are not secretive, as I said we have open membership so long as you have good character.

Oh. There are dark, dark secrets in this society. Masonry is by far the least of your worries.

but I do know that bonding with one group leads to lack of empathy for those outside the group.

Doesnt make sense. All humans group them selves in some way or another.

As your willingness to do anything for your brothers your desire to help someone on the outside goes down, especially if you have to choose between the two. It is the path to elitism.

you my friend are not I, nor are you a Mason, so where do you come to these conclusions?

What just a monkey then, not accepting your claim of superiority?

If you think I am superior in wit, then thank you, if you think I am superior in money.. please. I feel for you, you must need financial help! I am 21. I own nothing. I am the elite class of the world?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Redge777

 

I do not believe in Demons, nor Demonic Activity, and I certainly do not see Masonic values as sinister. Straight away, me not believing in Demons means i cannot "worship" a demon. I do not know how to make you understand.

I understand completely, I just disagree and believe differently. I get the thought saying a vow and not meaning it, because you simply believe it means nothing, makes it mean nothing.

It is a belief issue, I belief differently but don't need to change your mind on it.

What just a monkey then, not accepting your claim of superiority?

If you think I am superior in wit, then thank you, if you think I am superior in money.. please.

no no you misunderstand, I think you claim to be superior, but it was a jab.

Well...interesting reading.

I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Redge on secrecy, or privacy if you prefer.

Is there a need for it still?

Surely other rules have evolved and changed to keep Masonry contemporary?

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle
Well...interesting reading.

I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Redge on secrecy, or privacy if you prefer.

Is there a need for it still?

Surely other rules have evolved and changed to keep Masonry contemporary?

I'm not a Mason but may I ask, do you wish others to respect YOUR privacy? Would you be willing to cast aside what you feel is yours(yours alone) and let the world see? Personally I don't care what the Mason's hold secret. A few hand signals? What's that to me?

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm not a Mason but may I ask, do you wish others to respect YOUR privacy? Would you be willing to cast aside what you feel is yours(yours alone) and let the world see? Personally I don't care what the Mason's hold secret. A few hand signals? What's that to me?

Exactly Intrepid. Well said. Nothing "secret" effects ANYONE outside of Masonry.. it has no effect on any one else.. of course, I forgot, my words are worthless.

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm not a Mason but may I ask, do you wish others to respect YOUR privacy? Would you be willing to cast aside what you feel is yours(yours alone) and let the world see? Personally I don't care what the Mason's hold secret. A few hand signals? What's that to me?

Certainly you may ask. In respect to MY privacy, it will depend very much on the nature of the enquiry and my opinion of the person doing the asking. However, this thread is not about me, I did not start a thread entitled "Open and Honest discussion about troppo_ozstyle".

I don't particularly care about what the Masons hold secret either, that is beside the point, that they hold secrets at all is the point. To paraphrase Wu: it's not what secrets are kept, it that secrets are kept.

What's it to you? We shall never know.
What do you suppose it was to the wounded soldiers lying next to the one mentioned by Redge?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Exactly Intrepid. Well said. Nothing "secret" effects ANYONE outside of Masonry.. it has no effect on any one else.. of course, I forgot, my words are worthless.

LOL, well, yes and no.
The secret doesn't have to effect anyone outside of masonry to have a 2 tier effect on society as a whole, as demonstrated by the soldier example.

Your words are worthless? No, no, no. Redge simply pointed out there is no indpendant verification when it comes to the subject of Masonry.

Originally posted by Redge777
And you put the monkey symbol up there, why because it is one of the words used to describe a segment of the population within masonary. I see you did not explain that in your post defending Masons. It is one of the secrets, the labeling of people and your self appointed elitism.

Why not explain to our good listeners the meaning of monkey, Step out from hiding behind a veil of secrecy into the light, be honest with the good people, whoops we already know you have to defend the secrets, maintain the elitism, more lies, no credibility. Hubris is the downfall of those with a superiority complex.

Uh, okay, without me calling you a paranoid loon...
I don't know if you noticed or not, but my avatar is a monkey.
My user name is wu kung, the monkey king from the chinese epic Journey to the West.
When I saw the little monkey icon from BTS, I thought it was the neatest little thing since orange juice, so I started using it in all of my posts.
Besides, where in the blue hell did you get that "meaning of monkey" stuff from?

I'm not really going to address your attacks, there are plenty of threads up here on ATS for attacking us.
This is about speaking civilly without accusations.
And, seriously, it's cool that you feel that way.
I just wish you didn't think that we're all conspiring against you (whomever you are.)

So, no, I'm not going to pick on you, I'm not going to attack you or bait you into attacking me.
I'm going to embrace you and let you know that, well, it's cool man.
I don't hate you or anything that you do.
My brothers don't hate you either.
Tolerance, charity and brotherly love.
That's how we roll.

And of course, my masonic mantra:
If it weren't for men who were masons, planning military strategy in a masonic lodge, you might never have even had the opportunity or the rights to hate us.

Peace be to you all
Namaste

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm not a Mason but may I ask, do you wish others to respect YOUR privacy? Would you be willing to cast aside what you feel is yours(yours alone) and let the world see? Personally I don't care what the Mason's hold secret. A few hand signals? What's that to me?

If that is all they hold secret, there unbalanced influence in society makes them accountable to society through transparency.

reply to post by wu kung


The masons claim to be enlightened, they call us ignorant. They claim to know truths we do not, I say they are wrong that is why they must hide behind secrecy. Either they claim to be elite and claim others are not evolved enough to understand, or they are wrong and hide that wrongness from there members by never letting it be seen by others.

Masons claim others are, not worthy, not perceptive enough, to ignorant, and not evolved enough to be enlightened by your teachings. In reality they tell each other this to hide the teachings that society would see as self serving and unjust. This is a superiority complex to indoctrinate and protect. It is a claim of being more evolved. Or an admission that you are hurting society.

I also offer this thread where a mason commented of bad members acting like monkeys.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The problems started when the officers were acting like monkeys, this bothered me and others as it was corrupting the ritual, and in fact the S Warden addressed the W Master as Worshipful Monkey. I wished I was kidding!
So, I went to the Master and stated that some members did not like that. This only caused more Monkey acting combined with frenzy scratching.

Then the Master deposed himself and the main Monkey or S Warden is now master.
See how he actually uses the monkey noun as a symbol here.

Are you telling me grown men were running around waving arms and scratching in this lodge that he describes as corrupt, or did he use the common metaphor in masonry describing us less evolved commoners. People you claim live in deceit and corruption.

Masons that respond to the post directed the poster to more appropriate places to discuss this.

A super moderator Mirthful Me posted this
Not really... There can't be any direct influence by the UGLE with any Lodge in the U.S. There can be some limited influence with the UGLE and a particular Grand Lodge (big difference), but it would be if there was a gross departure from the recognized Landmarks.

I would suggest the profane are ill equipped to comment on this "situation" and it's "remedy."

As for the OP, I can't fathom using a venue like ATS for advice and a potential resolution even if there was some veracity to the described events, and the "details" of said event are more than suspect.
Notice how he new what the guy was talking about and replaced monkey with UGLE and profane.

If you believe his knowledge of the monkey label is just my interpretation, he used the same label 2 years earlier. www.abovetopsecret.com...
I don't believe that ASE is being attacked, merely refuted, "his" (actually someone else’ s) arguments and points being exposed for what they are (the same stuff I threw at visitors when I was a Zoo Monkey... A less than stellar moment in my "career path").

Notice how he uses the word profane to describe non masons. This is all over their writings.

Now spin another table to protect through deception your order, and deceive the people you claim not worthy of your knowledge.

Your monkey as an avatar, is because you are here fulfilling your oath to deceive, so you choose a figure you think will fit you in. and is also an inside joke for you.
Notice that Mirthful Me also has a monkey avatar.

One more little thing Wu kung, Masons here claim to be credible, that is how this started, yet you yourself have stated that masons intentionally use misinformation to conceal. You also spoke as if hearing it from a friend? was this before you were a mason? or more of pretending to be just a monkey?

www.abovetopsecret.com...
I'm sure that, unless you are a mason, you'll never actually find out.
All the information released to the public, is total disinformation.
Unless you are initiated, you'll never truly garner the ways to discern another mason.
At least, that's what a mason friend of mine told me, and the way he said it, I totally believe him.
Don't beleive the stuff on the history channel and the like, it is willingly misleading...

I will comment that earlier masons said the information released to the public was available.

I could continue, but you will just try and overwhelm with misinformation. My point is made, anyone can see that.

Zero credibility.

One more thing, a post by "Masonic traveler" he supports freemasonry
occassionalrambling.blogspot.com...
Dance, Monkey, Dance. "the monkeys have so much potential if they would only apply themselfs"

As I said, you have

Zero Credibility

The lie works because common people are kept working so hard to survive so they do not have the time to easily prove you are disinformation them. Anyone that digs deep will come to the same conclusion. Your wide ranging denial keeps the surface level people happy. But really is one thing

Zero Credibility.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by wu kung

I'm not really going to address your attacks, there are plenty of threads up here on ATS for attacking us.
This is about speaking civilly without accusations.
And, seriously, it's cool that you feel that way.
I just wish you didn't think that we're all conspiring against you (whomever you are.)

So, no, I'm not going to pick on you, I'm not going to attack you or bait you into attacking me.
I'm going to embrace you and let you know that, well, it's cool man.
I don't hate you or anything that you do.
My brothers don't hate you either.
Tolerance, charity and brotherly love.
That's how we roll.

And God Bless you also, may the love of God shine on you. I do not attack I point out inconsistencies in the spirit of sharing truth and light. Please don't try and turn this to me being the bad guy. My statements stand as evaluations of actions, actions your order embraces.

You are not conspiring against me, you have no effect on me. you are conspiring against all non masons, when you together through a vow chose to promote disinformation.

Originally posted by Redge777
reply to post by wu kung

 

The masons claim to be enlightened, they call us ignorant. They claim to know truths we do not, I say they are wrong that is why they must hide behind secrecy. Either they claim to be elite and claim others are not evolved enough to understand, or they are wrong and hide that wrongness from there members by never letting it be seen by others.

No friend, but by the continuance of using the word "they" as an absolute term, speaking for the whole of a community that you have no right representing, you display ignorance. By saying that this is your experience based on research and then claiming that it is just your beliefs, you yourself are creating your own two-tiered justice system.

Look at it this way, if you and I were to go to a cafe and sit together and drink coffee, would you deny me civil conversation based on my beliefs and choice of lifestyle?

Masons claim others are, not worthy, not perceptive enough, to ignorant, and not evolved enough to be enlightened by your teachings. In reality they tell each other this to hide the teachings that society would see as self serving and unjust. This is a superiority complex to indoctrinate and protect. It is a claim of being more evolved. Or an admission that you are hurting society.

Again, you are speaking for all Masons everywhere. What right have you?

I also offer this thread where a mason commented of bad members acting like monkeys.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The problems started when the officers were acting like monkeys, this bothered me and others as it was corrupting the ritual, and in fact the S Warden addressed the W Master as Worshipful Monkey. I wished I was kidding!
So, I went to the Master and stated that some members did not like that. This only caused more Monkey acting combined with frenzy scratching.

Then the Master deposed himself and the main Monkey or S Warden is now master.
See how he actually uses the monkey noun as a symbol here.

Are you telling me grown men were running around waving arms and scratching in this lodge that he describes as corrupt, or did he use the common metaphor in masonry describing us less evolved commoners. People you claim live in deceit and corruption.

Masons that respond to the post directed the poster to more appropriate places to discuss this.

When you were in school (or any other civilized institution), were you not expected to act in a respectful manner and observe rules of proper conduct?
I myself have been referred to as a monkey when I acted out inappropriately in many situations, doubtful it has to do with my lack of enlightenment, but rather my lack of self-control.

A super moderator Mirthful Me posted this
Not really... There can't be any direct influence by the UGLE with any Lodge in the U.S. There can be some limited influence with the UGLE and a particular Grand Lodge (big difference), but it would be if there was a gross departure from the recognized Landmarks.

I would suggest the profane are ill equipped to comment on this "situation" and it's "remedy."

Uh, first, the "limited influence" he refers to is simply the ability to maintain a charter.
That is all.
And second, did you just call us profane?
Because that is a personal slight, and I have no problem pleading my case to the mods claiming that you are acting against the proper rules of conduct and respect here on ATS.
You use the word "profane" as though you are of a higher order than the rest of us people.
Is this because of your beliefs?
Hmmm...if so, your double-standard two-tier justice system just reared it's ugly head again.

As for the OP, I can't fathom using a venue like ATS for advice and a potential resolution even if there was some veracity to the described events, and the "details" of said event are more than suspect.
Notice how he new what the guy was talking about and replaced monkey with UGLE and profane.

What the hell are you talking about?
Are you speaking in tongues or something?
You look for conspiracy in everything it would seem.
You call us liars, which I take personal insult with, so for me to tell you that we have no nefarious goals does me no good.
You're just like a poster on the "helen mirin tattoo" thread, so wrapped up in your own world and so completely unwilling to even consider the thoughts, feelings and actions of other people.
We live in a social, civil society.
I will be the first to admit, that yes, I belong to a group that has a semi-exclusive membership.
However, we do not discriminate based on race, religion, upbringing, socio-economic status (thank goodness for that, because not only am I poor, I'm in debt from school) or cultural beliefs.
I could say this over and over until I'm blue in the face, but I would imagine, after reviewing the previous conversations, that it would do me no good.

If you believe his knowledge of the monkey label is just my interpretation, he used the same label 2 years earlier. www.abovetopsecret.com...
I don't believe that ASE is being attacked, merely refuted, "his" (actually someone else’ s) arguments and points being exposed for what they are (the same stuff I threw at visitors when I was a Zoo Monkey... A less than stellar moment in my "career path").

His point of view, it is not representative of all of us.
Again, you seem to group all of us under one banner, one set of beliefs, one general consensus opinion. You can not, with any degree of accuracy, make the claim that we all think that way or share those opinions. By claiming that it is solid fact, you lose quite a bit of credibility in your argument.



[to be continued below]



[edit on 10/6/2007 by wu kung]

Notice how he uses the word profane to describe non masons. This is all over their writings.

Right, he uses that word.
It is his opinion, not representative of the whole of Masonry.

Now spin another table to protect through deception your order, and deceive the people you claim not worthy of your knowledge.

Huh???

Your monkey as an avatar, is because you are here fulfilling your oath to deceive, so you choose a figure you think will fit you in. and is also an inside joke for you.

How dare you?!?
So now, you think you're so smart as to dictate to me why I do what I do?!?
That is the height of ignorance!
Journey to the West is my favorite story and Sun Wu-K'ung is my favorite literary character.
If you knew anything about Chinese cultural mythology, you would have a clue (of which you do not) of just how big and influential he is in their culture.
I have action figures, statues, opera masks and so on, depicting the Monkey King in my home because I love the character.
You think you know so much, you then dictate to me what I'm thinking and my motives for what I do?
Y'know what?
I changed my mind, I don't like you.
I'd rather you not come onto my thread anymore.
And no, it has nothing to do with you not liking Masonry, that's your right.
But it has everything to do with you openly calling me a liar and insinuating that I'm duping the public with your lunatic conspiracy theories.
Seriously, you know nothing about me but you claim to have some insider knowledge...you're a fool.
It is appropriate that you have Narcissus as your avatar, because you are just as ignorant and self-absorbed as he.
Be careful, that you don't drown yourself in your quest to make love to your own reflection.

Notice that Mirthful Me also has a monkey avatar.

That's the beauty of America, freedom of choice.

One more little thing Wu kung, Masons here claim to be credible, that is how this started, yet you yourself have stated that masons intentionally use misinformation to conceal. You also spoke as if hearing it from a friend? was this before you were a mason? or more of pretending to be just a monkey?

Your little jab is ridiculous, and nonsensical at that.
I spoke of what as if hearing what from a friend?
What are you even talking about?
You are delusional, and rude.
By refusing to answer questions about things we do, we are not intentionally misleading.
We are declining to answer.
There is a HUGE difference.

I will comment that earlier masons said the information released to the public was available.

I could continue, but you will just try and overwhelm with misinformation. My point is made, anyone can see that.

Yeah, that you are a lunatic.

Zero credibility.

Please remind me the part where I have any obligation to you to try and comfort you and explain the inner workings of my life.
You act as though the world owes you something.
It does not, and neither do I.
So go on, and spew your gross miscalculated views.
Call us liars.
Go live in your own world.
The difference between talking to you and talking to a wall, is that a wall actually has a purpose, it supports a ceiling.

I'm done with you.
I'd rather you not come to this thread anymore with your insults.
You disgust me.






[edit on 10/6/2007 by wu kung]

And second, did you just call us profane?

Because that is a personal slight, and I have no problem pleading my case to the mods claiming that you are acting against the proper rules of conduct and respect here on ATS.
You use the word "profane" as though you are of a higher order than the rest of us people.
Is this because of your beliefs?
Hmmm...if so, your double-standard two-tier justice system just reared it's ugly head again.

No I did not call you profane, your rules of your order use that term. And the Mod I quoted called people who were not masons profane. Read the quote. So take all you just typed about me, and apply it to masons. By correctly quoting me, you would see you actually agree and defend my point.

And although I agree, blanket uses of the term Profane, are not good, especially from a mod, I did not worry about it except to point an example. The lack of credibility gives it no value.

Here is the page with the quote
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I see you now sling around the crazy, I invite independant people to read my post, and his, and see if mine is built on logic. I do not resort to slinging labels, I only show the contridiction of an honest and open forum of discussion with people that keep secrets and swear to decieve to withhold them.



[edit on 6-10-2007 by Redge777]

reply to post by Redge777


....grr

The masons claim to be enlightened

True, in a way, our own way I suppose, but it is nothing a non Mason cannot "achieve" .. I would hope most can come to the same conclusions on their own. Then again the word "enlightened" can come to mean in the possession of knowledge, if this is the case, you mixed up "Searching the light" with "enlightened" as they are two different things.

they call us ignorant

No, we don't.

They claim to know truths we do not

Wrong again.

I say they are wrong that is why they must hide behind secrecy.

A shrewed opinion.

Either they claim to be elite

I am a pretty arrogant guy and not even I consider my self elite lol.

and claim others are not evolved enough to understand

No. We do understand some are so self absorbed with their own beliefs and hate, that they despise us. Win some, ya Loose some.

or they are wrong and hide that wrongness from there members by never letting it be seen by others.

But if it is not shared with the entire society it is no longer institutionalized and thus it is a private matter, not a Masonic matter. Besides, your wrong anyways, there is no conspiracy against Masons by "high ranking Masons" ..

Masons claim others are, not worthy, not perceptive enough

Nope.

By the way, going show proof for any of these claims?

In reality they tell each other this to hide the teachings that society would see as self serving and unjust.

And what is unjust about Masonry.. and what are we hiding from ourselves? And how does it affect you?

This is a superiority complex to indoctrinate and protect.

Sounds like you suffer from a inferiority complex friend..

I also offer this thread where a mason commented of bad members acting like monkeys.

Lol.... wow. So you think that Wu is one of these monkeys? lol.. oh my.. this takes it to another level.

Wu is known to resemble a monkey in appearance, but I don't think he acts like one in meetings! Of course, he could be the Masonic monkey king! Perhaps all this time you think we worship demons, and in fact we worship chimps!

I think you see a conspiracy in EVERY THING. The link you provide has not been proven true, and no other Mason I have talked to has heard of such a thing..

As I said, you have

Zero Credibility

The lie works because common people are kept working so hard to survive so they do not have the time to easily prove you are disinformation them. Anyone that digs deep will come to the same conclusion. Your wide ranging denial keeps the surface level people happy. But really is one thing

Zero Credibility.

For thinking of this as a monkey conspiracy, I have decided even the most primitive chimp could rival your intelligence, and because of that, you have...

Zero...

Credibility...

And God Bless you also, may the love of God shine on you. I do not attack I point out inconsistencies in the spirit of sharing truth and light. Please don't try and turn this to me being the bad guy. My statements stand as evaluations of actions, actions your order embraces.

Sigh.. you obviously know nothing of Masonry.. believe nothing a Mason tells you and care nothing for the men who are Masons, they lack credibility to you, and if I consider someone to have 0 credibility it wouldnt be someone I had any respect for.

your a very good Christian indeed.

No I did not call you profane, your rules of your order use that term. And the Mod I quoted called people who were not masons profane. Read the quote. So take all you just typed about me, and apply it to masons. By correctly quoting me, you would see you actually agree and defend my point.

Do you know what Profane means?

I would suggest the profane are ill equipped to comment on this "situation" and it's "remedy."

The original meaning of the word comes from Latin and means "outside the temple" .. I do not know his exact meaning, but I would gather he implied the Profane being those ignorant to Masonic political policies would have a hard time commenting on an inside Masonic matter (allegedly) if they have no clue what they are talking about.

But again, you will have to ask MM for a direct meaning, but I assume thats his meaning.. which would put yet another one of your ignorant rants to rest.

I see you now sling around the crazy, I invite independant people to read my post, and his, and see if mine is built on logic. I do not resort to slinging labels, I only show the contridiction of an honest and open forum of discussion with people that keep secrets and swear to decieve to withhold them.

Your argument lack logic in its entirety ..

Your argument lacks any sense of reason..

your argument is yet another shining example of your typical hyper religious anti-mason..

It makes me wonder, why you have the nerve to even think you should .. ahem .. "fear for our souls" .. when it is people like you, the many, many like you, that need to worry about your own eternal well being.

The only advise I can give, is to re-read what you write, and understand how completely absurd it is..



I would have a better time talking to a rock, I would get the same reaction anyways.

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle
Well...interesting reading.

I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Redge on secrecy, or privacy if you prefer.

Is there a need for it still?

Surely other rules have evolved and changed to keep Masonry contemporary?

So no actual Masons want to tackle that then?

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle
Well...interesting reading.

I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Redge on secrecy, or privacy if you prefer.

Is there a need for it still?

Surely other rules have evolved and changed to keep Masonry contemporary?

So no actual Masons want to tackle that then?

It has been.

Masonry is not "contemporary" and we do not change to fit the needs of outsiders. There is no conforming our history to ensure your personal insecurities are benefited..

The "secret" is traditional sense.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Has been? By whom?
One person adressed me directly and began with "I'm not a Mason but...", then proceeded to not answer. Nor did he reply to my response.
Nor did you.

I don't believe I asked you to change anything for the benefit of outsiders, I believe I asked if there was still a continuing need from the perspective of an insider. Lol, now I have personal insecurities too? How so, pray tell?

If the 'secret' is nothing more than the traditional sense, and the information is not actually secret, then why put up with the stigma? It's obviously made some of you very sensitive on the subject.

reply to post by troppo_ozstyle


What exactly did you want to know?