Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

I will post the reply to your reply that I posted on another thread

Originally posted by Redge777
Go read the discussion in other thread.

Originally posted by wu kung
Okay, Fortune 500 corporations...
They have board meetings.
You can't just walk into a board meeting, right?
Companies have trade secrets.

Companies have secrets so their company can dominate the competition, out sell out market control and make money. Well in the masons the competition to there secret society is the common people, the people the masons want to dominate and make money off of.

Your argument supports mine, it does not counter it. Secrets are held to protect the secret holder, sometimes that protects all, but usually it doesn't, look at history.

And companies have SEC regulations and accountants to regulate the secrecy a bit to protect the people from illegal acts.

And y'know what?
Religions keep secrets too.
Confession...it's kept strictly between the individual and the priest.
That's a secret, yes?

If two people have a secret that does not effect society that is fine, but the masons have secrets that reach outside their group. Favoritism, control of power, and unequal justice system.

If they do not, why are they in unequal places in society. I just tripped your elitism, you thought because they are better, well then why have secret signs for when they need help, because they are the same and can not be distinguished without that sign. Your elitism is your way to justify you having influence over other parts of society. Your exclusion allows for lack of empathy building with other elements of society.

To quote a young brother of mine:
"This is getting so old, it's not even funny anymore."

first LOL

Agreed, go read my other thread so I don't have to type the same obvious reasons why your secrets are not for the benefit of all.

If you people think that Freemasonry is up to some nefarious agenda, prove it.

I don't have to, They do, They prove it by telling us that if we knew the secrets we would not approve of them, that's why they are secret. It is a no brainer.

Here is one from the history books, a British soldier about to be treated badly gave a mason hand sign and a fellow Mason Continental soldier stepped in to save him. The rest of the British soldiers got no such reprieve. This is an example of two tier justice. A two tier system set up by a group that also determines membership in secret is nefarious. That is one example, just one, but it fits your oath and credo. Deny that would be a responsibility of a mason. Then again don't bother you can lie I wouldn't know, your credo is secret. Zero credibility. You know of many more, social, economic, and opportunity examples.

And don't pull that "I don't have to, I feel it in my gut" nonsense because then my reply will be "we're not up to anything bad, and I don't have to prove that because I feel it in my gut."
See, it doesn't seem as effective from the other side of the argument.

Other side of the argument? I don't even know what you mean by feel it in my gut, I know by there secrecy as I have explained. As far as being effective, heh, I will leave that to the discerning reader.

I'm telling you from experience that we are not bad guys.
Believe me, don't believe me...I don't care.
But stop trashing something that you obviously know nothing about.
It shows a deep rooted bigotry and displays a wealth of ignorance.

I will skip my experiances since I have made my arguments on logic and reason that anyone can see without having to give me credibility.

I am bashing a method of maintaining power or inequality, secrecy, it happens to be the masons use that method. So it is the masons choice to do something that logically shows what they are.

I know many masons are good people, but the idea of promoting people to new information being selected by the holders of that information allows the selection of people who only carry the agenda of the secret holders. The slow adding of new secrets is indoctrination over time. This has been done for years.

You said "I know nothing about masons?" I already told you, and you agree, that masons do something to protect themselves from the judgement of all of society. They keep things secret, what more do I need to know, go through history and the reason things are kept secret. Think about it for heaven sake, think man think.

Besides if the masons are bad guys how would you even know. They might be protecting a secret like you would when speaking to me. Besides your groups doctrine can never be challenged by a source that is not approved to hear it, and has gone through proper time of indoctrination. You don't even know if it is good, nobody can ever challenge it. Sounds like a safe way to protect something that is not good doctrine.

bigotry, and ignorance, I have shown nothing of that, again think of what I typed. You are throwing out a protection mechanism for self justification so you do not have to think on my points, or you know I am right and are talking to the crowd with known deception. Take your pick.

I state that the principle your order works under leads to, has been shown in history, and promotion ideas and actions against the good of society. Come on I know you agree, this argument you put up is for those lesser common people not in the know, hence no credibility.

Seriously, this is ridiculous.

yes it is, go read the other thread, I don't want to retype it all here.

And you put the monkey symbol up there, why because it is one of the words used to describe a segment of the population within masonary. I see you did not explain that in your post defending Masons. It is one of the secrets, the labeling of people and your self appointed elitism.

Why not explain to our good listeners the meaning of monkey, Step out from hiding behind a veil of secrecy into the light, be honest with the good people, whoops we already know you have to defend the secrets, maintain the elitism, more lies, no credibility. Hubris is the downfall of those with a superiority complex.

reply to post by Redge777

How would I know, but if I asked a question that touched on a secret you would either through omission, or diversion, or flat out lies not reveal the secret. Your secrecy gives you no credibility as I said above. Thank you for calling me wise instead of a fool as before, it is appreciated.

Why do you think this? Masons on this board and especially this thread, have given accurate answers to all questions posed to us.. The only thing that will not be shared is if you where to ask exactly what went on during rituals and so forth..... not that what we do is sinister, or in any way harmful, quite the contrary to tell you the truth.. but it is instead a tradition of respect because of the foes we had at our founding.. the ones you would consider worthy to be trusted, Christians and Governments, they conspired and plotted against us through deception and out right attacks.. the narrow minded institutions where not going to back a free thinking society of enlightened men.. yet you buy into the age old propaganda that has faced Masonry since its inception.

I am not more knowledgeable about Freemasons then you, I am only more credible, I only point out logical conclusions that anyone can figure out for themselves. I do not ask or question about Freemasons because I know what you say has no credibility.

We could flip it around you see, as organized religion which was Masonry's foremost enemy, keeps far more secrets, and far more darker matters under the rug. Perhaps it is you has no credibility with your narrow minded insult at our personal integrity.

I do understand I am not privy to your secrets, I do not have the right to know them if you chose. I actually know enough to have formed my opinion and do not wish to know more. Unless those secrets also involve others outside your own group. And I can imagine you would not want to converse with me. I would either show you the self delusion of your claim, or if you know the truth of my statement and do not deceive yourself, but intentionally deceive others I would show them what you are doing.

If you chose, you do have the right to know, as we have open membership so long as your a decent person. Why would such a "secretive" society be so open to men of all races, creeds and social status? .. I have had friends ask me all kinds of questions, two of which are now in the process of joining. Of course, one like your self would then say "your a low ranking Mason" ..

And, if you will friend, please point out perfectly clear where I have been "deceptive" towards you or anyone else?

Who I am and my experiences are not relevant to the logic of my statement. A statement you still have not even touched on as you make claim after claim to discredit me instead of turning to reason and examining the statement.

And which statement is it exactly I am supposed to be examining?

And I am more credible, even if I have less information I do not have a reason to lie, furthermore, my statement is one that anyone can work out in their own mind. Its value stands on its own. It is simple reason.

Oddly enough, if I wanted to invest in the stock market, I would talk to a broker, not a bum on the street corner. It would seem to make more sense to trust someone who is actually involved in the subject being discussed. If you choose to believe the ranting religious community that declares us evil because we do not represent "their ways", because we refused to allow the suppressive dogma implied in our teachings, instead of an actual Mason, so be it. You will be non the wiser.

I have not read the thread

Go figure, members on ATS do not like to read, it would seem. You skip to the last page and declare another thread "better".

why would I when it is based on an impossibility, it says you will explain masons while holding what you wish back as secret. I have had many good conversations with masons, but not on the topic of masons.

So let me get this straight here.

You have not read the thread.

But you say we lied and did NOT explain Masonry.

But then again you never read the thread sooo....

How do you know what we said?

Ah, thats right. Through your own narrow minded ignorance you decided to place the entire community of Masons, who none two are alike, in the same demography of liars and dissevers. Ah, if only one day I could be half the man you are. Great principles to live by, I say.

I do have views, but it is not my views I state in my post above, it is common sense.

Common sense says you believe your own imagination over truths, what you seek by coming here I do not know, but apparently you are quite content to listen to your own voice on a topic you know nothing about. I am starting to question why your so much more reliable for information. You sure lack all standards I apply to a man who comes off as "credible".

I do not have an agenda except to call a lie when I see it

No anti-Mason has an agenda. They are just very adamant on their own set beliefs and desire nothing but to defend it regardless of fact, truth or reason. Not an agenda at all.

I believe this a noble agenda, or would you disagree with that?

Well..

One line above that you just said you did NOT have an agenda. Now you do?

And this has nothing to do with you or masons, this has to do with credibility of those who hide in the darkness of secrecy

lost me!

Has nothing to do with Masons. Yet no Mason has credibility to talk of Masonry simply because we are Masons. In the darkness of secrecy you say, show me an aspect of society not blanketed by secrecy.

I have no hatred in my life, or at least very little, it is an ugly emotion. It leads to insults, self delusions of elitism, social isolation, lack of compassion and unreasoned arguments.

Interesting indeed. You seem to express a .. "dislike" towards all Masons, stereotyping us all into one category. Self delusions? You gave several of your own, with your agenda, and a narrow mindset. Elitism? I believe you declare your self a better man then all Masons? You place your self, in your mind through self delusions of hate, above us all, showing an utter lack of compassion with your unreasoned, unfounded arguments that project your ideas of hate. Sounds like your own quote describes you well my friend.

I do not hate you, I don't know you, I only call a lie when I see one

Show me where I lied. Quote it, please.

that lie is the ability of a mason to have an honest an open discussion about Freemasons.

You never read the thread, now did you?

As I said in my post. Please I do not hate you, I fear for your soul, and hope the best for you.

AHH the AGENDA is found!

But don't worry, its no different then anyone else it seems. I can assure you, my fearful friend that my soul is in no way endangered by Masonry. More over, know this, it is not your place, nor your right, to subject your ignorant thoughts upon me nor any one else, your backward thinking of saving souls because we do not abide by your instructed dogmatic beliefs. It is you who needs to worry for your own soul, not I, for I do not go around declaring people below me, incredible and declaring them liars simply so they will "change their ways". If your God is the real God and he strikes me down for joining a society of men which conducts the good it does, then your God is no God of mine, and would take any punishment then to serve such a Tyrant.

Sorry Wu, sorry this soul saving hero defiled your thread without bothering to read it.

Originally posted by wu kung
Okay, cool it, both of you.

Rockpuck, do not engage in heated argument to someone who will dispute you at every turn. All you do is get frustrated and run the risk of saying something that you might regret. Govern yourself accordingly.

And accept the validity of the argument posed.

Redge777, by saying that someone you do not know has "0 credibility", whether or not you realize it, you are personally insulting them and their choice of lifestyle.

I do not wish to insult them personally, and I say when they speak of Freemasons they have 0 credibility. This credibility gap is not my issue, if it offends them I suggest they look into the idea of hiding behind secrets. It is from there where the credibility gap comes, and it is there choice.

When you say that you fear for our souls, again, you place yourself upon a pedestal and display a, how did you put it... you display a "delusion of elitism."

I put my religious beliefs above all others, I do arrogantly believe them to be right. I do not try and tell others they must agree, but from my point of view my statement of fearing for souls was an honest and kind remark. I understand that others do not believe that fear of mine is justified. As far as me being elite, God is elite. I screw up all the time.

I also openly admit this as you say pedestal, I try to think of it as God on the pedestal not me. I will however openly discuss all my beliefs where they come from and will enjoy conversations with others on their beliefs. I will not hide my arrogance on this issue and will accept any social consequence it might bring by being open and upfront about it.

I'm sure that your goal is not to insult, but, as evidenced by my young brother's rather scathing comments, you have.

It is a tough one, I am relaying a position that the actions of another are wrong based on historical evidence of secrecy. I do not say the person is bad, and accept that I too have many flaws, but I stand by the belief that the organizations that use secrecy use it for a reason that is not easily, if ever justified.

A persons intent can be good, as I believe both of yours are, I only point out my belief of the value of organizations that embrace secrecy. I am also not angry or disagree with anyone posting there opinion, I only offer an argument about the totality of those comments.

[edit on 4-10-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Redge777

 

AHH the AGENDA is found!

But don't worry, its no different then anyone else it seems. I can assure you, my fearful friend that my soul is in no way endangered by Masonry. More over, know this, it is not your place, nor your right, to subject your ignorant thoughts upon me nor any one else, your backward thinking of saving souls because we do not abide by your instructed dogmatic beliefs. It is you who needs to worry for your own soul, not I, for I do not go around declaring people below me, incredible and declaring them liars simply so they will "change their ways". If your God is the real God and he strikes me down for joining a society of men which conducts the good it does, then your God is no God of mine, and would take any punishment then to serve such a Tyrant.

Sorry Wu, sorry this soul saving hero defiled your thread without bothering to read it.

I can not nor am trying to save your soul. Jesus saves not me. I believe he will always find away, and I just express my Love and thanks of the grace and mercy Jesus Christ has given me.

If you read any of my post I express my opinions without telling others what they should believe. I only offer conclusions and ask them to be addressed.

If my ignorance is saving souls, read above that is not my intent, I do confront that I see as wrong and support my conclusions. I also did not learn my beliefs from dogmatic beliefs. You again claim me ignorant but do not refute my conclusions. I earlier said it is not my credibility that my arguments stand on, it is their strength as anyone who reads them can see.

You seem to have implied I intend to change your ways, if you mean I wish you to be honest then you are right, but I believe all people should be honest. I do not mind that you attend Masons, I only mind when you do not faithfully speak about them through omission and deception.

God does not simply punish for actions, he saves us from the punishment we bring upon ourselves, and he gave you free will, how could I ever try and force you to worship him, when he does not even force you to. And he loves you very much

I also will accept your thoughts on belief in Jesus Christ are your own and not mainstream in the Masons, unless the Masons teach reason above spiritual matters. I am sure that is not discussed, unless it is to claim a belief in Christ to be backward thinking and ignorant thoughts, something they might want to not tell people about.

And If anyone does think my arguments ignorant, I have not seen a reason why. It seems deflection is the new attempt to misinform, check my post out in that thread, I mentioned labeling, name calling and diversion as ways to obscure truth.

And please explain how my arguments defile the discussion, they still have not been refuted.


[edit on 4-10-2007 by Redge777]

Redge777

Your position would appear to center around the word “secret”. You should consider that most all of freemasonry’s “secrets” are in fact just “private”.

The only things that are truly secret in this age of the Internet are what is said within the lodge during meetings. And to be blunt it is none of your business how much our light bill is, or how much money our lodge has raised for the orphanage.

There are sites I have posted in the past that will let you read the published version of the Masonic ritual in its entirety. We (the active free masons) do not reveal these things ourselves out of tradition, but how you can say they are secret, since the can be found either on the internet or in any large bookstore, is beyond me.

I take exception to your calling me a liar simply because I happen to be a mason. I challenge you to actually find a copy of the ritual and read it. If you find one single place where it states that I have sworn to lie for a brother I will most humbly apologize. What better source of information is there about any group than a member of that group?

reply to post by Redge777


Ask any question you will and it will be answered. If you heed no words from a Mason then you have no intent of conversing. If you have no need nor desire to converse you are here to preach. If your here to preach, you are everything I said you are.

And thanks for my sermon of the day..

If you believe taking an oath to something makes a man less credible, then thats a shame. I would sooner trust a man who can keep his word to a promise.

I believe, as a Catholic, I was asked to swear my self to the Church and its leaders. As a child no less.

And he loves you very much

This always cracked me up about religion.

Anyways. This thread is not about Jesus or any other religion for that matter, I know you think your self self righteous being Christian, fearing for Masonic souls, but in actuality many Masons are Christian, I for one am not and many other are not, but far more are.

also, your thought process does not come off.. Christian. To me anyways.

unless the Masons teach reason above spiritual matters.

Masonry does not tell its members how to believe, that is for their religion to decide. I personally have my own beliefs, and they are not exactly.... in line.. with Christianity. But again, as you say, it is my belief, I suppose I am therefore twice as much to be doubted, no credibility eh?

And If anyone does think my arguments ignorant, I have not seen a reason why.

Because you declare that those within masonry are below the normal people, apparently in this twisted Christian belief of yours, Masons cannot be trusted simply because we are Masons. We live a life of secrecy. So secret I advertise it on my car and hand. I answer everyones questions so long as I do not break my own oaths. As I said, I admire my brothers who do not break their oaths, but many have and it can all be found if you knew where to look. Of course finding it in pure form without being raped by Christians declaring that we worship Satan, ect, ect, ect same old story, will be very hard. Perhaps, friend, you should spend more energy on finding out the core beliefs and values us Masons uphold before you cast your wicked judgment on an entire people. Which you have done.

they still have not been refuted.

Aigh they have, and redundantly so, I think you blind if you cannot see how many times your audacious claim have been refuted. You have yet to counter.

[edit on 10/4/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Redge777

 

How would I know, but if I asked a question that touched on a secret you would either through omission, or diversion, or flat out lies not reveal the secret. Your secrecy gives you no credibility as I said above. Thank you for calling me wise instead of a fool as before, it is appreciated.

Why do you think this? Masons on this board and especially this thread, have given accurate answers to all questions posed to us.. The only thing that will not be shared is if you where to ask exactly what went on during rituals and so forth..... not that what we do is sinister, or in any way harmful, quite the contrary to tell you the truth.. but it is instead a tradition of respect because of the foes we had at our founding.. the ones you would consider worthy to be trusted, Christians and Governments, they conspired and plotted against us through deception and out right attacks.. the narrow minded institutions where not going to back a free thinking society of enlightened men.. yet you buy into the age old propaganda that has faced Masonry since its inception.

And we know them accurate because... Don't you see, I know you claim to have given accurate answers, I do not dispute the claim, I only say that your answers have no value because of the argument I gave.

The baptist, and protestant separatist faced the same persecution, I do not see them hiding in secrecy, so you must still be doing things that you feel would lead to persecution, things that go against what society would deem proper. Now if your actions were only involved your group, society wouldn't care, look at the different groups in our society, it is because your society influences other groups, and uses techniques of cult control outside of its members that society does have a right to request you to be honest.

Christians have been persecuted, they speak what they believed. If it is right, it will prevail. Which groups in the world hide behind secrecy.

Read my posts I do not believe the things the church and state offer.

We could flip it around you see, as organized religion which was Masonry's foremost enemy, keeps far more secrets, and far more darker matters under the rug. Perhaps it is you has no credibility with your narrow minded insult at our personal integrity.

I do not support organized religions that keep secrets for the same reasons. Many of those same religions would consider me a heretic if I lived back then. Some probably still today. I am not narrow minded. Your repeated use of that, yet my obviously open minded views tells me this is a conditioned response. I would guess masons are told outsiders are to narrow minded to understand their views.
Organized religion and my credibility do not have anything to do with each other, and again, it is not my credibility it is the logic of my argument.

If you chose, you do have the right to know, as we have open membership so long as your a decent person. Why would such a "secretive" society be so open to men of all races, creeds and social status? .. I have had friends ask me all kinds of questions, two of which are now in the process of joining. Of course, one like your self would then say "your a low ranking Mason" ..

I chose not to. um black and white pebbles for voting? And you also have to be willing to be part of rituals that in my view were not just harmless fun things, and many would agree, which is another reason why they are secret. Wouldn't work out to good for someone to know there boss was speaking to druid nature gods. "Just walk this way, its a great place, now swear this oath" But besides that.

You can be a 32 by choosing Scottish rite, ranks don't work like that, at least that is what I think. I wont ever know, I would have to ask a mason. But the higher ups in secret order choose those that move up with them. Secret societies protect there own above others. They do it in secret because people would not stand for it.

And, if you will friend, please point out perfectly clear where I have been "deceptive" towards you or anyone else?

I covered this over and over. please point out where you have been honest, it is a point of credibility. You keep trying to go back and use the secret. If you were honest, you would have transparency and not hide behind secrecy.

And which statement is it exactly I am supposed to be examining?

The one I have made over and over. Those that speak about a subject, yet admit part of it is secret do not have credibility because they are sworn to keep a secret in certain areas if the topic goes there. Your lack of outside examination gives no accountability, nor ability for others to question the moral direction of your order and how it influences society. Also secret societies are by nature bad.

This is what I have been saying from the beginning, and you still don't know what point I wish you to explain or counter. You go on and on about other issues but wont address secrecy and how it removes credibility.

And I am more credible, even if I have less information I do not have a reason to lie, furthermore, my statement is one that anyone can work out in their own mind. Its value stands on its own. It is simple reason.

Oddly enough, if I wanted to invest in the stock market, I would talk to a broker, not a bum on the street corner. It would seem to make more sense to trust someone who is actually involved in the subject being discussed. If you choose to believe the ranting religious community that declares us evil because we do not represent "their ways", because we refused to allow the suppressive dogma implied in our teachings, instead of an actual Mason, so be it. You will be non the wiser.

I do not believe the ranting religions community. I do believe the ceremonies go against what I believe about the teachings of Christ. I also must say for a guy who doesn't like ranting religions you put alot of efforts in ceremony and ritual. But this gets into my opinion. I again state, its the secret.

As far as my wiseness, I invite you to review my statements using Mason teachings of what is wise. Then accept that you are defending an indefensible position to protect an interest through deception and diversion. Take the argument I made to your mason meeting. Find flaw in its logic. The sad thing is if you were being honest, I am the one taking the mason approach to discussion and thinking.

I have not read the thread

Go figure, members on ATS do not like to read, it would seem. You skip to the last page and declare another thread "better".

I explained why I did not read this thread. I read threads before I post if it is possible they have value. It was the title I responded to. I got as far into the thread as I could before seeing a gross contradiction. I got to the title.

So let me get this straight here.
You have not read the thread.
But you say we lied and did NOT explain Masonry.
But then again you never read the thread sooo....
How do you know what we said?

It is not that you did not explain masons, it is that your explanation has no value do to credibility. Do you understand my point? Or are you arguing for the sake of the crowd. You do get the principles of secrecy and credibility don't you. The thread title was enough to add a post. Your lie is that you claim you did explain it when your explanation has no credibility. You must first state that anything you say may be untrue do to restrictions on what you are allowed to say. Then when you speak at least you will be speaking from an accurate set of rules, and people ca

[edit on 4-10-2007 by Redge777]

I believe this a noble agenda, or would you disagree with that?

Well..

One line above that you just said you did NOT have an agenda. Now you do?

Here is my actual quote from my post
"I do have views, but it is not my views I state in my post above, it is common sense. I do not have an agenda except to call a lie when I see it, or if this is better to show lack of credibility. I believe this a noble agenda, or would you disagree with that? "

I notice you clipped it to give it false meaning, just another deception? I don't know, maybe you made a mistake, either way just read it, and try to quote accurately, unless your intent is to deceive, then continue to prove the deception caused when one must argue against something that is not arguable against.

Has nothing to do with Masons. Yet no Mason has credibility to talk of Masonry simply because we are Masons.

In the darkness of secrecy you say, show me an aspect of society not blanketed by secrecy.

I now know you are just arguing to try and divert the truth of my statements. Show me an area where an organization that is secret that does not use secrecy to protect itself over others. as far as organizations without secrecy. Little league baseball, protestant churches, rotary club, professional tournaments in many sports, government they have oversight committees to watch over others, checks and balances(in theory at least) Cooking shows, Court rooms. Places that do have secrecy use it to further there own gains against the outside. My exact point.

Interesting indeed. You seem to express a .. "dislike" towards all Masons, stereotyping us all into one category. Self delusions? You gave several of your own, with your agenda, and a narrow mindset. Elitism? I believe you declare your self a better man then all Masons? You place your self, in your mind through self delusions of hate, above us all, showing an utter lack of compassion with your unreasoned, unfounded arguments that project your ideas of hate.

Sounds like your own quote describes you well my friend.

I repeat again I have no dislike of masons, I have a dislike of methods used to misinform. It is the actions I discuss more then the people, I think most Masons are good, but there actions are not when they hide in secrecy.

Show me where I lied. Quote it, please.

Deception through omission and intentional misleading of people. As far as a direct lie I would have to read your post. Show me where you told the truth. Nobody but another Mason can verify your account of what the secrets hold so that is where your lack of credibility comes from. If you made statements to claim the masons as a noble or good or a society that benefits society, then that is a lie. I assume you made those statements. If you said masons believe in equality, freedom and equal justice, then that is a lie.

that lie is the ability of a mason to have an honest an open discussion about Freemasons.

You never read the thread, now did you?

As I honestly said no I did not read the thread, I read the title, that is enough considering my argument. Your thread title is a direct contradiction of your secrecy, it is impossible to be true and therefore a lie.

Redge777

“As I honestly said no I did not read the thread, I read the title, that is enough considering my argument. Your thread title is a direct contradiction of your secrecy, it is impossible to be true and therefore a lie.” From the last line of you latest post.

Why if you have no interest in reading a thread do you feel inclined to posting answers to it?

Why should we accept your arguments as having any substance if you post after stating you have not read the thread?

Finally, to use your own argument, if I may. Since at the beginning Christianity was a “Secret” organization in Rome in the first couple of centuries, does that make all Christians liars? Does that make you a liar too?

This current discussion does nothing to add to this thread, for my part in it I apologize to Wu Kung.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Ask any question you will and it will be answered. If you heed no words from a Mason then you have no intent of conversing. If you have no need nor desire to converse you are here to preach. If your here to preach, you are everything I said you are.

I have not preached I understand your need to divert from the question I already asked.

I agree as I said before I do not think, nor do I discuss with a mason about masons. I only point out the contradiction to call them on their action. Then when they continue to divert, I continue to point out the contradiction. I also answer accusations or labels. I do discuss points that are built on logic and stand on there own to avoid the lack of credibility issue.

I have no questions accept to ask you to answer the logic I presented, any question about what happens in masons is to ask for a filtered response and has no value.

And thanks for my sermon of the day..

I have not preached unless you are speaking about logic, some call that a god, I do not.

If you believe taking an oath to something makes a man less credible, then that's a shame. I would sooner trust a man who can keep his word to a promise.

Even if that promise is to lie to others if necessary? How about kill if necessary, that's one of the oaths Masons swear I believe. I personally do not believe people should swear oaths to things in an ever changing world. They should live the oaths we all have on our heart, goodness and kindness. I fail at this at times too.

I believe, as a Catholic, I was asked to swear my self to the Church and its leaders. As a child no less.

I believe people should show they follow Jesus Christ in action and word, I fail often. I do not follow the swearing of allegiance to a church.

Anyways. This thread is not about Jesus or any other religion for that matter, I know you think your self self righteous being Christian, fearing for Masonic souls, but in actuality many Masons are Christian, I for one am not and many other are not, but far more are. also, your thought process does not come off.. Christian. To me anyways.

You are the one making it about Jesus. I am making it about the contradiction, and your constant diversion.
Luckily you are not my judge. Please let me know where I have failed to be kind and show love to others.

Masonry does not tell its members how to believe, that is for their religion to decide. I personally have my own beliefs, and they are not exactly.... in line.. with Christianity. But again, as you say, it is my belief, I suppose I am therefore twice as much to be doubted, no credibility eh?

As I do not tell others what to believe, your credibility is doubted based on my original unaddressed argument.

And If anyone does think my arguments ignorant, I have not seen a reason why.

Because you declare that those within masonry are below the normal people, apparently in this twisted Christian belief of yours, Masons cannot be trusted simply because we are Masons. We live a life of secrecy.

So secret I advertise it on my car and hand. I answer every ones questions so long as I do not break my own oaths. As I said, I admire my brothers who do not break their oaths, but many have and it can all be found if you knew where to look. Of course finding it in pure form without being raped by Christians declaring that we worship Satan, ect, ect, ect same old story, will be very hard. Perhaps, friend, you should spend more energy on finding out the core beliefs and values us Masons uphold before you cast your wicked judgment on an entire people. Which you have done.

How have I declared masonry inferior? You can not be trusted to speak about masonry, that is not a blanket lack of trust. If a question forced you to either break an oath or lie which would you choose. I do not judge the masons, I simply say they are not credible by there own admission that they will do anything before revealing secrets. It is you that tell my you are not credible. As far as occult, I have my beliefs but only occasionally bring them up because they are based on personal experiences, so I only share them with those that know I am credible. Or to add to a conversation knowing it is information that can not be backed up by logic, it is subjective and my observations. Where have I judged a single mason? I comment on their actions by their own admission.

they still have not been refuted.

Aigh they have, and redundantly so, I think you blind if you cannot see how many times your audacious claim have been refuted. You have yet to counter.

Bold face lie, I ask anyone who read the previous post will see you just deceived to try and win the point with someone skimming the article. When did I even make claims in this discussion? I made the single claim of lack of credibility. You are proving my point over and over.

Specifically how can a person be open an honest about a society they have sworn to do anything to keep parts of secret. It is a contradiction that is not answered.


[edit on 4-10-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by Masonic Student
Redge777

“As I honestly said no I did not read the thread, I read the title, that is enough considering my argument. Your thread title is a direct contradiction of your secrecy, it is impossible to be true and therefore a lie.” From the last line of you latest post.

Why if you have no interest in reading a thread do you feel inclined to posting answers to it?

I read to the title, saw the contridiction and posted, and I feel it is a worth endevor to point out contridictions and lack of credibility. The rest of the posts have been answering different claims you have made not about my claim.

Why should we accept your arguments as having any substance if you post after stating you have not read the thread?

because my post is showing a contridiction in the title and its logic stands on its own. Accept my argument on its weight. No thread information is needed for the conclusion it shows.

Finally, to use your own argument, if I may. Since at the beginning Christianity was a “Secret” organization in Rome in the first couple of centuries, does that make all Christians liars? Does that make you a liar too?

No it doesnt, just like I have said I am not calling all masons liars just those that defend masonary in a setting they claim to be honest and open. And a Christian if asked what the christians were talking about lied to keep his organization secret, then yes he would be a liar, and I would hope the Roman Guard realized that. But I have lied before. Note that Peter was chastised by Jesus for this very thing.

This current discussion does nothing to add to this thread, for my part in it I apologize to Wu Kung.

Or this discussion is the only thing that is of value in this thread, (see credibility)

Originally posted by Redge777

The baptist, and protestant separatist faced the same persecution, I do not see them hiding in secrecy....

This is sort of a fallacious argument, as I will show in a moment. However, suffice it say that, obviously, we're not "hiding in secrecy" either.

so you must still be doing things that you feel would lead to persecution, things that go against what society would deem proper.

What Freemasons do and think will not lead to persecution in a free society. Your falacious argument concerns the concept of "secrecy". You are here beginning with a false premiss concerning that concept, i.e., "Masons are secret". In reality, Masons are not secret. Fraternities and sororites keep portions of their initiation ceremonies private because it is these that distinguish them as members of the various organizations. However, these things have nothing to do with the actual policies and teachings of the various fraternities and sororities. Instead, they only highlight the organization's *method* of teachings, i.e., as in the case of fraternities and sororities, through dramatic ceremony.

Therefore, it isn't Freemasonry's teachings and beliefs that are secret or private; it's the *method*, i.e., the ceremonial mode of instruction, that is kept private. The actual teachings are available to the public in half a million great Masonic books, as well as the many posts by Masons on this very forum.

Now if your actions were only involved your group, society wouldn't care, look at the different groups in our society, it is because your society influences other groups, and uses techniques of cult control outside of its members that society does have a right to request you to be honest.

We have always been honest. The same cannot be said for most of our ritics.

Christians have been persecuted, they speak what they believed. If it is right, it will prevail.

The same thing may be said of Freemasonry. Didn't the Age of Enlightenment eventually prevail over the dark ages?

Wouldn't work out to good for someone to know there boss was speaking to druid nature gods.

Well, I've never spoken to druid nature gods either, mostly for the reason that I'm pretty sure they don't exist. But regardless, if someone does believe in nature druid gods, they certainly have the right to speak to them if they want, just as you and I have the right to practice our own religions. Why would it matter if your boss or mine spoke to druid gods, or to Jehovah, or to Allah, or to Krishna or Brahma? It would really be none of our business anyway.

You can be a 32 by choosing Scottish rite, ranks don't work like that, at least that is what I think.

You are correct on that point. In the USA, Master Masons may join the Scottish Rite and become 32° in that Rite, and that degree does not confer rank.

But the higher ups in secret order choose those that move up with them.

If that a necessary qualification for a "secret order", then obviously, Masonry is not a secret order. In Masonry, Masonic officials, including the highest ranking official, the Grand Master, are elected from the membership. They cannot choose their successors.

I do not believe the ranting religions community.

That's good, because a lot of people *do* fall for that stuff.

I do believe the ceremonies go against what I believe about the teachings of Christ.

Then you are welcome not to request to join. As for me, I know fully well that the teachings of Masonry were also the teachings of Christ. All one has to do is read a Masonic monitor, and compare it the words in red in their Bibles.

Edit: Double Post

[edit on 4-10-2007 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Student
Redge777

Your position would appear to center around the word “secret”. You should consider that most all of freemasonry’s “secrets” are in fact just “private”.

yes it does.

The only things that are truly secret in this age of the Internet are what is said within the lodge during meetings. And to be blunt it is none of your business how much our light bill is, or how much money our lodge has raised for the orphanage.

If the secrets were only inside the group you would be correct, but look at my example of the British soldier, did they tell everyone else that the two tier justice system was due to a secret order and preferential treatment? Because Masons spill over to government and economic areas, and maintain there vows of helping brothers in those areas, they are not exempt from being transparent to be credible and just.

Or is a secret two tier society acceptable?

There are sites I have posted in the past that will let you read the published version of the Masonic ritual in its entirety. We (the active free masons) do not reveal these things ourselves out of tradition, but how you can say they are secret, since the can be found either on the Internet or in any large bookstore, is beyond me.

Will you also allow cameras and witness to attest that is all that goes on, will you openly state when a secret society brother is tapped by another in an organization, or is given special treatment?

I take exception to your calling me a liar simply because I happen to be a mason. I challenge you to actually find a copy of the ritual and read it. If you find one single place where it states that I have sworn to lie for a brother I will most humbly apologize. What better source of information is there about any group than a member of that group?

Well we all lie at times, I try not to, as I am sure you try not to, and lie is a harsh word, but you do give a false impression of what freemasonry is when you neglect to show society how it also helps and promotes its own members above others.

[edit on 4-10-2007 by Redge777]

I actually believe everyone who has responded to me are pretty good people, for the most part they are cordial, professional and polite.

My statements go towards my feelings of secrecy and how that leads to tyranny. It is well documented and I do not think the Freemasons are immune to that.

reply to post by Redge777


Sigh.. Had it all typed out and I clicked a stupid add at the top of the page and it all disappeared....

And we know them accurate because... Don't you see, I know you claim to have given accurate answers, I do not dispute the claim, I only say that your answers have no value because of the argument I gave.

My words have no value because I am a member which we speak. Essentially, I think, you may mean I am "biased" in my views, and that friend is an accurate description, but not worthless nor am I valueless.. if anything more value comes from my words as I am a Mason, and you are not.

The baptist, and protestant separatist faced the same persecution, I do not see them hiding in secrecy, so you must still be doing things that you feel would lead to persecution, things that go against what society would deem proper.

The protestants DID perform in secrecy, and often, which ceased for the most part with the founding of the New World, but what does this have to do with Masonry? Many religions conform to the times, Masonry has not, it is TRADITION that we keep our rituals private, not to flaunt them, a sign of respect more so then "secrecy".

Now if your actions were only involved your group, society wouldn't care, look at the different groups in our society, it is because your society influences other groups, and uses techniques of cult control outside of its members that society does have a right to request you to be honest.

Here we go again. PROVE IT!

HOW do we effect society?

HOW do we effect YOU

HOW is that our society effects government and business??

SHOW ME one example of Masonry being pushed on other Non Masons .. one example is all I want, excluding the Constitution.

Of course, I could shower you with the interjection of medling churches and evengelicals, I could show you the suppression they push on society, from history to present I could show you Christians commiting all of this, but never can Masonry as an institution. Individual Masons maybe, but they opeprate on their own, they achieve what they will because they can. Masonry does not make men greater in power and wealth, rather, the type of person who desires and can acheive such things often looks for like minded men, and many end up masons, but the vast majority DO NOT! .. But most are Christian. See where I am going with this?

yet my obviously open minded views tells me this is a conditioned response. I would guess masons are told outsiders are to narrow minded to understand their views.

Yes. You are very opened minded. A Masons word is valueless because he is a fellow conspirators to keep secrets that have drastic effects on society, government and economic corruption because they worship the devil in their rituals. sounds open minded to me.....

um black and white pebbles for voting?

What the hell? You have a problem with our voting methods???

And you also have to be willing to be part of rituals that in my view were not just harmless fun things, and many would agree, which is another reason why they are secret.

"Devil worship" ... More Christian ignorance here.. just because it is different to you, it must be evil. I think back to my initiation.. I can think of nothing sinister at all, if anything it was exciting and humbling at the same time. But you care not for these things, you and your Jesus apparently think we are nothing but Satan worshipers.

Wouldn't work out to good for someone to know there boss was speaking to druid nature gods.

Ironic. Many brothers here know full well I am a supporter of believing that Masonry's rituals and organization hold fundemental aspects of Celtic culture and lore.. not all do, but no one seems to agree where we come from anyways. The word "God" is to describe the most supreme being we believe in, as Wu Kung said greatly "Its not what we believe, but rather that we believe" .. I personally follow Celtic lore, tradition and philosophy over "your religion" .. Do I worship a "druid god" .. That would be none of your business, but know that the vast majority of Masons DO worship the same God you do! .. If a Christian is in Lodge he pledges himself to the Christian God and that is that.. it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to worship a God unwillingly.. something I don't think you understand. The worshiping of a God is part of ones soul, not something to be stolen or manipulated with trickery, its all inside ones head.

By the way. There is only one God to the Celts, many supernatural beings, but only one Godly figure.

"Just walk this way, its a great place, now swear this oath" But besides that.

You are given an option to leave everytime you come to lodge between 1-3 without completing all 3 degrees. Afterwards you can leave as well, infact we induct many men who we never see again. Save a check in the mail.

You can be a 32 by choosing Scottish rite, ranks don't work like that, at least that is what I think. I wont ever know, I would have to ask a mason.

Why ask us. We only lie. And your right, to gain politically in Masonry you have to establish connections. Like any political body, even the Church operates this way.

But the higher ups in secret order choose those that move up with them. Secret societies protect there own above others. They do it in secret because people would not stand for it.

I would help a brother anyway I can, we are bonded as brothers, how dare you expect less of us! But we also help out a great deal to many, many non Masons.. many who receive our help NEVER know who helped them.. we often choose anonymously over glorifying our contributions like many churches do.

I covered this over and over. please point out where you have been honest, it is a point of credibility. You keep trying to go back and use the secret. If you were honest, you would have transparency and not hide behind secrecy.

THE WHOLE DAMN THREAD. Seriously man, what the hell is wrong with you. READ THE THREAD then tell me where I lied.

The one I have made over and over. Those that speak about a subject, yet admit part of it is secret do not have credibility because they are sworn to keep a secret in certain areas if the topic goes there.

Right. And I admit what I keep secret? Its none of your business, and I am not one to tell you, find out on your own if you will, but I will not tell you.

Your lack of outside examination gives no accountability, nor ability for others to question the moral direction of your order and how it influences society. Also secret societies are by nature bad.

And why friend, are secret societies by nature bad? Conspiring against the populace? PLEASE. We are a conserved society, we are not secretive, as I said we have open membership so long as you have good character.

I do believe the ceremonies go against what I believe about the teachings of Christ.

And so, because our rituals may not conform to a dogmatic belief that we must SUPPRESS upon all who enter our rooms, you deem us evil. Pathetic. It is those like you that destroy this world with your venomous arrogance.

you put alot of efforts in ceremony and ritual.

A key part of humanity, lost to the ages with the industrial age. It is good for the soul to participate in ritualistic ventures with fellow humans, it is a bonding. Of course, that being my own belief, I know Christians prefer impersonal sterilization of rituals. Especially protestants.

I again state, its the secret.

No, its open information on the net. Out of respect we will not tell you though. That is our right. Why should we conform around someone like your self and those like you?

Then accept that you are defending an indefensible position to protect an interest through deception and diversion.

Respecting and honoring my vow not to tell all I meet about Masonry and its every aspect is imo something our western world lacks. You would prefer there being no mysteries left in this world, you would prefer to gray it all down, have all conform to you and those like you.

The sad thing is if you were being honest, I am the one taking the mason approach to discussion and thinking.

Please. And what is this Masonic way of thought you claim to have? I see no Masonic quality in you at all.

I explained why I did not read this thread.

DO NOT denounce words you never read.

Do you understand my point?

The shrewed logic of one convinced of his own beliefs, that he as an outsider to a society has more value to speak of it. Yes, I see your point. Your no different then the rest.

Originally posted by Redge777
I actually believe everyone who has responded to me are pretty good people, for the most part they are cordial, professional and polite.

My statements go towards my feelings of secrecy and how that leads to tyranny. It is well documented and I do not think the Freemasons are immune to that.

There are many, many ways that democracy will lead to Tyranny, and if you focus on Masonry as its cause, you will only be helping the rise of Tyranny. Tyranny comes openly, accepted with open arms, it will not take a secret to have the consolidation of federal power reach a tipping point. We are no different then Rome in this aspect, and Rome formed its Empire through ambition, not secrets.

And as stated, over and over and over again, we have no secret.. not in the sense you think.. Masonic Light gave you a well enough covering of that already.

also, would you not think it ironic that it was in the age of Enlightenment, when Masonic principles helped form the United States and started the free world, FIGHTING tyranny???? It would seem, Tyranny is not something Masons believe in. Hence we have been a democratic institution long before the founding of this Nation.

Men like King George had far more to fear from the ideas which Masonry is founded then free men like your self.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Sigh.. Had it all typed out and I clicked a stupid add at the top of the page and it all disappeared....

Have had that happen too, I type them in notepad now if I know they will be long.

And we know them accurate because... Don't you see, I know you claim to have given accurate answers, I do not dispute the claim, I only say that your answers have no value because of the argument I gave.

My words have no value because I am a member which we speak. Essentially, I think, you may mean I am "biased" in my views, and that friend is an accurate description, but not worthless nor am I valueless.. if anything more value comes from my words as I am a Mason, and you are not.

I would not say it is bias, although we all are, I am saying that if there was a truth behind the secrets, you would not tell us, so if there is, asking you would never show it. So the only way we know what you are saying is real is trust without the ability of accountability or oversight. You ask us to trust what you say, even as you admit somethings are secret.

Heck no you are not worthless, nor valueless, you are a great addition to the human race with all the rights and respect I can give. I just don't trust your comments about your order.

The protestants DID perform in secrecy, and often, which ceased for the most part with the founding of the New World, but what does this have to do with Masonry? Many religions conform to the times, Masonry has not, it is TRADITION that we keep our rituals private, not to flaunt them, a sign of respect more so then "secrecy".

Yes as did the masons, but when the threat went away, they came into the open. Masons have not, I only purpose a possible reason for that.

And I actually believe keeping the love of Christ a secret is wrong, but back then it was hard not to, with life and family at stake. (at stake, that's a pun almost)

Here we go again. PROVE IT!
HOW do we effect society?
HOW do we effect YOU
HOW is that our society effects government and business??

SHOW ME one example of Masonry being pushed on other Non Masons .. one example is all I want, excluding the Constitution.

The only way a mason would push masonry is to speak of it, then require trust that what they say is true. That trust is lost when they do not have accountability.
I gave an example of British soldier, and other postings referred to percentage of wealth power holders. I don't need to prove it, but if you deny it I think you are being disingenuous.

Of course, I could shower you with the interjection of meddling churches and evengelicals, I could show you the suppression they push on society, from history to present I could show you Christians committing all of this, but never can Masonry as an institution. Individual Masons maybe, but they opeprate on their own, they achieve what they will because they can. Masonry does not make men greater in power and wealth, rather, the type of person who desires and can acheive such things often looks for like minded men, and many end up masons, but the vast majority DO NOT! .. But most are Christian. See where I am going with this?

Many Christians do things that make me cringe.

OK imagine opportunity as a multiplier for success. Even if better people decide to join the masons, the fact that your society is closed allows that floating opportunity to be congregated within that group. I don't think you can deny that. I can accept a higher class of people join masons, but they also go even higher because of that, not just because of there own merits. And some of the limitations for people is simply economic, they do not have the time nor money to join up. And when they go higher because of Masonic connections it is not reported or spoken of.

Yes. You are very opened minded. A Masons word is valueless because he is a fellow conspirators to keep secrets that have drastic effects on society, government and economic corruption because they worship the devil in their rituals. sounds open minded to me.....

Finally you are getting it, I didn't think I was getting through to you, glad to have you on this side, whew. Man I really thought you would never see the truth.

What the hell? You have a problem with our voting methods???

I commented on an group furthering opportunity picking its members, someone said anyone can join, the fact that they can be not allowed challenges that argument, it was a direct reply to anyone can join. Anyone can join that fits the mold.

reply to post by Rockpuck

And you also have to be willing to be part of rituals that in my view were not just harmless fun things, and many would agree, which is another reason why they are secret.

"Devil worship" ... More Christian ignorance here.. just because it is different to you, it must be evil. I think back to my initiation.. I can think of nothing sinister at all, if anything it was exciting and humbling at the same time. But you care not for these things, you and your Jesus apparently think we are nothing but Satan worshipers.

This is an example of how secrecy is used, and deception. People do not let others decide when another is involved in occult. And just like I think I should say what I believe, others should not lie about what they believe when it may be in some people opinion evil incarnate. I know you don't agree, I only say why hide it if it is not that, or does not look like that.

You call belief that some devil worship ignorance, I can tell you first hand it is real, demons exist they do enter this world and manipulate events, spiritual powers exist. I don't believe that I know that. I also know some masons have views on crafts, some think spiritually some attach it solely to science. But this delves off into you believing me something I do not ask you to do. Just imagine I am right for a second, that is my world perspective. And being the one who is right, the ignorance label does not apply.

Ironic. Many brothers here know full well I am a supporter of believing that Masonry's rituals and organization hold fundamental aspects of Celtic culture and lore.. not all do, but no one seems to agree where we come from anyways. The word "God" is to describe the most supreme being we believe in, as Wu Kung said greatly "Its not what we believe, but rather that we believe" .. I personally follow Celtic lore, tradition and philosophy over "your religion" .. Do I worship a "druid god" .. That would be none of your business, but know that the vast majority of Masons DO worship the same God you do! .. If a Christian is in Lodge he pledges himself to the Christian God and that is that.. it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to worship a God unwillingly.. something I don't think you understand. The worshiping of a God is part of ones soul, not something to be stolen or manipulated with trickery, its all inside ones head.

By the way. There is only one God to the Celts, many supernatural beings, but only one Godly figure.

This is where everything breaks down. Note I have a friend who is a pagan witch, and yes I talk to them like everybody else. That is not the issue. I do know worship and belief are choices. Where we differ is I believe those worshiping things like the druid spirits are misguided. I know, I know, but I really believe it from person experience.

This is where the whole conversation breaks down. Because I literally believe you are doing something dangerous even though you do not know it. Hey I trust the Lord, he is going to save people and find a way. I just think you should explain the rituals and allow people to have a clean view of them before they are standing being ask to say certain words. This is not my agenda, I rally against secrets elsewhere that do not have rituals also.

As far as unwilling worship, the worship of that which is not the true God is a rejection of God. Even if you think it means nothing, I disagree and believe it opens the door to demonic activity. Yup, and that's from personal experience.

There really is nothing I can say about this, it is belief orientated, I can believe you are opening demon doorways , and you can believe I am ignorant narrow minded. Hows this, when we are in heaven we will finally agree and we can discuss it then. Notice this comment even follows my belief.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Why ask us. We only lie. And your right, to gain politically in Masonry you have to establish connections. Like any political body, even the Church operates this way.

I really wasn't asking, I was just making sure I was not claiming it as fact since I do not know it for sure. And you don't only lie, there is just know way to know if you are lieing, since you have a motive to.

I would help a brother anyway I can, we are bonded as brothers, how dare you expect less of us! But we also help out a great deal to many, many non Masons.. many who receive our help NEVER know who helped them.. we often choose anonymously over glorifying our contributions like many churches do.

I not only expect less, I demand less in a equal society. In the British soldier example, save them all not just the Mason. Or save the one with kids and a wife at home, not just a mason, or save the youngest, or save the one who surrendered. Your fellowship, and the fact that you have a broad base in power does not give you right to two tier justice. Unless you consider yourself better then others. I see your statement as corruption.

THE WHOLE DAMN THREAD. Seriously man, what the hell is wrong with you. READ THE THREAD then tell me where I lied.

your missing the point, you ask me to trust you, as you keep secrets, and defend preferential treatment.

Right. And I admit what I keep secret? Its none of your business, and I am not one to tell you, find out on your own if you will, but I will not tell you.

Problem is their is no accountability, and your two tier justice makes it my responsibility. Actually any mason who helps a mason out of legal jam(like parking ticket) probably is a criminal. Since to give preferential treatment is the same as to deprive others of equal treatment by the law, somewhere in there there is probably a case for a Federal civil rights violation of hate crime, but I am stretching it to make a point. The British soldier one is a good example of that.

And why friend, are secret societies by nature bad? Conspiring against the populace? PLEASE. We are a conserved society, we are not secretive, as I said we have open membership so long as you have good character.
And the character is judged by the members, and please list secrets that are not kept to protect those that hold them.

And so, because our rituals may not conform to a dogmatic belief that we must SUPPRESS upon all who enter our rooms, you deem us evil. Pathetic. It is those like you that destroy this world with your venomous arrogance.

Na, I can't destroy the world, i believe in loving everyone and no violence, shoot I couldn't destroy anything, unless my words had that power. Wait I can destroy evil, but I choose not to even destroy that.

A key part of humanity, lost to the ages with the industrial age. It is good for the soul to participate in ritualistic ventures with fellow humans, it is a bonding. Of course, that being my own belief, I know Christians prefer impersonal sterilization of rituals. Especially protestants.

I don't know about impersonal sterilization of rituals. but I do know that bonding with one group leads to lack of empathy for those outside the group. As your willingness to do anything for your brothers your desire to help someone on the outside goes down, especially if you have to choose between the two. It is the path to elitism.

Respecting and honoring my vow not to tell all I meet about Masonry and its every aspect is imo something our western world lacks. You would prefer there being no mysteries left in this world, you would prefer to gray it all down, have all conform to you and those like you.

while you wish to separate yourself from the rest, this is so simple what happens next. And respecting a vow is good, I question the honor of taking a vow that leads to secrecy and elitism.

Please. And what is this Masonic way of thought you claim to have? I see no Masonic quality in you at all.

Thank you.

DO NOT denounce words you never read.

you again are ignoring my comment, I denounce the credibility of the speaker on the subject of masons, would that not encompass the words in the thread. Or maybe you are denouncing my point without having read it.

The shrewed logic of one convinced of his own beliefs, that he as an outsider to a society has more value to speak of it. Yes, I see your point. Your no different then the rest.

What just a monkey then, not accepting your claim of superiority?