Est. 300,000+ Innocent Iraqi's Killed

Originally posted by Vekar
Connected that was the most blatant spew of government propaganda I have heard in the last month on here, congradulations on regurgetation of government propaganda.

Have you been over there? I have, and so have the ones who are questioning these bloated numbers. It would appear that the government isn't the only source of propaganda based upon the crap I see posted here.

Originally posted by Vekar
Connected that was the most blatant spew of government propaganda I have heard in the last month on here, congradulations on regurgetation of government propaganda.

Maybe you should go to Iraq and see for yourself like I did?

Maybe you missed the point that they actually train their children to fight? Maybe I should show you a video of a gunman hiding behind a woman firing his gun?

Or how about I point you to articles about the Iraqi's blowing up their own woman and children when US Soldiers were giving out gifts?


---PS---
Its spelled "congratulations" "regurgitation".

Originally posted by Vekar
Connected that was the most blatant spew of government propaganda ....

Connected is absolutely correct. The insurgents are murdering their fellow muslims. Here is a list for 2006 of the Islamic insurgent/terrorist attacks that took place.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

edited to add -

Originally posted by BlueRaja
It would appear that the government isn't the only source of propaganda based upon the crap I see posted here.

... And BlueRaja is absolutely correct as well.

Anti-American propaganda. And this propaganda isn't even new. It's old debunked crap that has been dug up and that some folks are trying to make stick again. :shk:





[edit on 2/23/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Why must one be bloodthirsty to doubt figures that are counter to every other estimate out there? If you see 10, 20, 100, or however many estimates that put the figure at 50-60k, and 1 that puts it at 655k, one must question that estimate. Nobody on the ground, US or Iraqi is seeing those sorts of figures, based upon their personal experiences and not mathematical models. What does bother me is when folks who are against the war, will stoop to any level, and say anything in their efforts to criticize without regards for accuracy. If it supports their agenda, they'll parrot falsehoods.

Blueraja,

"Nobody on the ground, US or Iraqi is seeing those sorts of figures"

You know this! How?

I've been there 3 times a total of 20 months of my life! luckily I still have my life!

Mean deaths of 500 deaths per day is not an "out there" number. It's a large country and battles are going on all over the place.

Think about it Approx 168,000 people have died in the USA from Automobile accidents since the beginning of Iraq II !

What is it about the number of 650,000 dead that makes you all so defensive??? It is OK to feel ashamed it is OK to feel sick about what your country does. You will be no less a Patriot for feeling such things, a Patriot isn't someone who follows blindly.

I beg people to stop derailing this thread, if you don't agree with what the thread want's to say then no one is forcing you to read or post!

A U.S. Marine cries during the memorial service for 31 killed U.S. servicemen at Camp Korean Village, near Rutbah, western Iraq, on Feb. 2, 2005. Military deaths in Iraq totaled at least 3,000 troops Sunday.

The future Haters of the West!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

oh gee ... no bias there...

A statement like this coming from YOU?!? That is a joke!

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If what is stated in the thread can't hold up under pressure, then it's false and deserves to be shown for the falsehood that it is. No free rides are given here!

It holds up just fine, anyone with half a brain can figure that out. The OP was being conservative with his 300k+ number. Go ahead, keep your head in the sand - no loss to anyone.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Which is what? To promote the anti-war and/or anti-Bush agenda? That's all that is going on with this thread.

WRONG - it tells a truth that desparately needs to be told. Anything that shows this war in a critical light is automatically labeled "an anti-Bush agenda". You are brainwashed lady. You are like a broken record. Is that all you have to say or can you actually form a thought on your own that isn't recycled from some right wing hack on tv or the radio? Hmmmm?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
... and people still post this as if it were fact, when in truth it has been DEBUNKED numerous times.

Great, then you can post a link to support your claim - or can you??

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
I beg people to stop derailing this thread, if you don't agree with what the thread want's to say then no one is forcing you to read or post!

Where did you ever get the idea that it works that way here? That people get to start threads and then only people that agree with the OP get to post? Sounds like a form of blatant censorship to me.

Truth is that the OP and others posting on this thread have a very strong agenda they are trying to push.

It is also the truth that there are members that disagree with that agenda and its purported facts and figures.

To me, it looks like the OP and others have taken a page out of the anti-abortion handbook by posting the pictures in the way that they have.

Imagine that, two totally diverse groups using the same tactics to try and force their opinions onto others.

And then the gall to tell other members not to post any dissenting views.

[edit on 2/23/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Why must one be bloodthirsty to doubt figures that are counter to every other estimate out there? If you see 10, 20, 100, or however many estimates that put the figure at 50-60k, and 1 that puts it at 655k, one must question that estimate. Nobody on the ground, US or Iraqi is seeing those sorts of figures, based upon their personal experiences and not mathematical models. What does bother me is when folks who are against the war, will stoop to any level, and say anything in their efforts to criticize without regards for accuracy. If it supports their agenda, they'll parrot falsehoods.

Blueraja,

"Nobody on the ground, US or Iraqi is seeing those sorts of figures"

You know this! How?

I've been there 3 times a total of 20 months of my life! luckily I still have my life!

Mean deaths of 500 deaths per day is not an "out there" number. It's a large country and battles are going on all over the place.

Think about it Approx 168,000 people have died in the USA from Automobile accidents since the beginning of Iraq II !

What is it about the number of 650,000 dead that makes you all so defensive??? It is OK to feel ashamed it is OK to feel sick about what your country does. You will be no less a Patriot for feeling such things, a Patriot isn't someone who follows blindly.

I beg people to stop derailing this thread, if you don't agree with what the thread want's to say then no one is forcing you to read or post!

A U.S. Marine cries during the memorial service for 31 killed U.S. servicemen at Camp Korean Village, near Rutbah, western Iraq, on Feb. 2, 2005. Military deaths in Iraq totaled at least 3,000 troops Sunday.

The future Haters of the West!

It's the terminology that I'm having problems with. Is it 650k died, or 650k killed. There's a big difference in the meanings of those two statistics. And if it's the latter, is it 650k killed by the US? There are 4 of the 18 Provinces in Iraq where there is regular violent activity, so that would mean that if that figure refers to #s killed(not died in accidents, disease, or of old age), those 500 killed/day are in 4 provinces. When major combat occurs or major insurgent attacks occur, the location and casualties get reported. One would have to assume if hundreds were being killed daily, that some family members would report it(other than the official numbers), especially seeing as how they'll get some sort of reimbursement for wrongful deaths. Here is an article(and yes I realize the source may be disagreeable to some, but read what it quotes from a source that you may accept as having credibilty).


commonsensepoliticalthought.com...

UN: Iraqi Civilian Deaths at New High
By Sameer N. Yacoub, The Associated Press

Wednesday 22 November 2006

Baghdad, Iraq - The United Nations said Wednesday that 3,709 Iraqi civilians were killed in October, the highest monthly toll since the March 2003 U.S. invasion and another sign of the severity of Iraq’s sectarian bloodbath. . . .

Based on figures from the Iraqi Health Ministry, the country’s hospitals and the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad, the report said October’s figure was higher than July’s previously unprecedented civilian death toll of 3,590.

If 3,709 was the highest monthly toll since the invasion began, and 3,590 was second, if we assume that every other month had a civilian death toll of 3,589, for the duration of the war, we max out at 158,037 for the entire course of the war. Not exactly 655,000, is it?

Of course, the number is lower than that: using 3,589 as the total for every other month is worst case, and didn’t happen. You might be able to justify 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed, a number that is still too high and certainly regrettable, but, spread over 44 months of the war isn’t that much greater than the number of Iraqis the Ba’athists were killing to retain dictatorial power.

(Fictional)

2008 brought in a new year of war for the world as China and Russia launched "Operation American Freedom". The world could no longer sit by while, "america destabilized the entire world". The Chinese evidence of mass torture of US citizens seems to have not held water, but the search for these "torture chambers" is on going. The insurgent war in american cities continues with death tolls in the millions.
The coalition accidently bombed a suburban neighborhood and apologized for the incident. "We are not targeting civilians" according to General Tao Chin Wan. Witnesses say a large number of children were killed, but General Tao disagrees. When questioned by the press over civilian casualties general Tao responded, "A small amount of collatoral damage is necessary" the general also pointed out the large number of "liberated Americans in the North". "deaths of children are necessary for the greater good" and added "would you rather have Bush still in office?"
The leader of the american insurgency vows to fight on. Questioned via telephone James Williams stated, "It is none of the worlds business who we elect in office, its an american problem" and went on to say, "We vow to fight those american traitors that have been working with the coalition". Mr. Williams lost his entire family to fighting last month. The coalition spokesman stated "Mr. Williams should thank us for liberating him". Williams and his insurgent group Christian Struggle are the largest terrorist orginization in america, numbering in the millions.
The coalition is having problems with their domestic population with widespread anger over this war. The civilian death toll is highly disputed some saying millions while others say more like hundreds of thoasands. Russian Scholars were blasted as traitors and anti-russian for speaking out against civilian casualties. President Putin vows to keep the occupation forces in place till the americans take resposibility for their new goverment.

I only write this because what if the situation was reversed? What if we americans were Iraq's? What if your son or daughter was killed or injured? Would you feel liberated?


[edit on 23-2-2007 by rich1974]

Originally posted by rich1974
(Fictional)

The coalition is having problems with their domestic population with widespread anger over this war. The civilian death toll is highly disputed some saying millions while others say more like hundreds of thoasands. Russian Scholars were blasted as traitors and anti-russian for speaking out against civilian casualties. President Putin vows to keep the occupation forces in place till the americans take resposibility for their new goverment.

I only write this because what if the situation was reversed? What if we americans were Iraq's? What if your son or daughter was killed or injured? Would you feel liberated?


[edit on 23-2-2007 by rich1974]

You have voted rich1974 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


Brilliant! Excellent way to make your point.

Originally posted by rich1974
(Fictional)

2008 brought in a new year of war for the world as China and Russia launched "Operation American Freedom". The world could no longer sit by while, "america destabilized the entire world". The Chinese evidence of mass torture of US citizens seems to have not held water, but the search for these "torture chambers" is on going. The insurgent war in american cities continues with death tolls in the millions.
The coalition accidently bombed a suburban neighborhood and apologized for the incident. "We are not targeting civilians" according to General Tao Chin Wan. Witnesses say a large number of children were killed, but General Tao disagrees. When questioned by the press over civilian casualties general Tao responded, "A small amount of collatoral damage is necessary" the general also pointed out the large number of "liberated Americans in the North". "deaths of children are necessary for the greater good" and added "would you rather have Bush still in office?"
The leader of the american insurgency vows to fight on. Questioned via telephone James Williams stated, "It is none of the worlds business who we elect in office, its an american problem" and went on to say, "We vow to fight those american traitors that have been working with the coalition". Mr. Williams lost his entire family to fighting last month. The coalition spokesman stated "Mr. Williams should thank us for liberating him". Williams and his insurgent group Christian Struggle are the largest terrorist orginization in america, numbering in the millions.
The coalition is having problems with their domestic population with widespread anger over this war. The civilian death toll is highly disputed some saying millions while others say more like hundreds of thoasands. Russian Scholars were blasted as traitors and anti-russian for speaking out against civilian casualties. President Putin vows to keep the occupation forces in place till the americans take resposibility for their new goverment.

I only write this because what if the situation was reversed? What if we americans were Iraq's? What if your son or daughter was killed or injured? Would you feel liberated?


[edit on 23-2-2007 by rich1974]

If Bush were a brutal dictator, killing hundreds of thousands to millions of Americans, had strategic interests of China and Russia, and threatened the annihilation of China and Russia, I could see a resemblance in the above scenario. That just doesn't reflect reality. If America is so bad, why are millions of folks trying to get in, legally or illegally, and risking their lives to do so?

I'm glad to see that not everyone is blind to the fact of the true war that is going on. This country has been torn apart and people have lost lives.

And the USA is trying to get the country stable so you don't see those types of things happening on a regular basis.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by khunmoon
Let's not forget the 1 million+ children who died from unfair and unfounded restrictions put in place after the first Gulf war...

Let's not forget that the children (the TRUE number of which is unknown due to INFLATED numbers put out by Saddam) who died after Gulf War I didn't die from the fair and necessary restrictions put on Iraq, but instead died because SADDAM stole billions in Oil for Food money that was supposed to go to those children. He stole the food and medicine from them to build his palaces and to fund his mass murdering and raping stranglehold he had on the country.

BTW .. your 300,000 dead innocent Iraqis number is completely bogus... unless you are counting the innocent dead Iraqis who died by SADDAMs orders, and then it's been estimated to be 1-2 million.

Don't argue with the hyper liberal leftist. They do not care about the war, or the children, just getting back in power. 300,000 is inflated.. your first statement of 650,000 was off by 350,000 from what you say now! .. WHAT DOES THAT SAY? .. no credibility what so ever.

Also to say sanctions where.... unfounded.. I do believe Saddam invaded Kuwait? Sounds worthy for sanctions if you ask me.

Of course, we invaded another country to... but what can you do about it? Put sanctions on us? Privilege of Power.

By the way there was a rather large debate on ATS a while ago about this crap, one study ... just one.. came out and said it was around 300k dead civilians based on a unscientific research system - going door to door asking people how many people they know who had died then multiplied that by the Iraqi population or something stupid like that, completely unfounded. The ACTUAL estimates are roughly 70-120 thousand dead.

[edit on 2/23/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by LogansRun


You have voted rich1974 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


Brilliant! Excellent way to make your point.

You dont give people WATS for that...

anyway...

His fictional story is flawed.

I highly doubt that Americans would suicide bomb a group of Russian and Chinese forces while they give gifts to little American children, killing them all. That happened in Iraq. Also Americans would not suicide bomb their own people, like they do in Iraq. Major differences. Iraqi's are not afraid of death, that is why they are dieing so much.

We Americans are not extremists, we will not kill people because they are on our land. If that was so, America would be one major civil war. We won't fight because of false ideas that they are trying to force a religion on us. Also we will not fight unless we have a reason too, meaning, the war wouldn't start in the first place.

The reason so many people are dieing in Iraq, is because the lawless ones are shooting at the US Forces. If they don't shoot, US forces wont shoot back. Its so damn simple. Yet they don't get it.


[edit on 23-2-2007 by Connected]

news.bbc.co.uk...

US considered 'suicide jet missions'

US Air Force commanders considered crashing fighter jets into hijacked planes on 11 September because of a lack of armed planes, a BBC investigation reveals.
In the immediate aftermath of the terror attacks US fighter planes took to the skies to defend America from any further attacks.



It was very possible that they [US pilots] would have been asked to give their lives themselves

Colonel Robert Marr
Their mission was to protect President George W Bush and to intercept any hijacked aircraft heading to other targets in the US.

lol.. suicide jets.. why would the jets be unarmed anyways? .. doesn't make sense to me. The planes that intercepted Bush's plane WHERE ARMED .. they came from Indiana, they flew over my house causing a sonic boom. Even if the story held some truth, there is nothing wrong with commiting suicide to save other peoples lives. There is something wrong with blowing your self up to kill and maim and for that purpose only. Liberals.... where do you guys get half the BS you come up with? I see a Republican victory coming in 08 if you guys keep talk like this up.

Originally posted by rich1974
It was very possible that they [US pilots] would have been asked to give their lives themselves

1: They would give their life to save another, in this case, the President Of The United States. They would not give their life just for a couple more kills.

2: You are talking US SOLDIERS. They are, by law, to follow any orders with no questions asked. In Iraq however, most of the resistance is civilian, or just some gang or group of uncontrolled fighters with no legal ramifications for not following direct orders.

Don't try to compare apples with oranges.

Your missing the entire point. This is my last post on this subject so go ahead and have the last word. I just wanted you to put yourselves in a similar situation, of an army in the streets of america. Do you have children? What if a goverment dropped a bomb on your house for "liberation" and killed one of your kids? So have the last word after this because you are arguing pollitics and I for one don't want to get into a pollitical discord. I was just making a point that killing for "liberation" is kinda of an oxymoron. After all the name of this operation is/was "operation Iraq freedom"
So you can call me "liberal" if you want. I could call you a neo-con. It still doesn't change the point I was making.

Originally posted by Connected


You dont give people WATS for that...

I wasn't aware that you had the authority to determine what people could or could not give WATS for - not that it is ANY business of yours anyway. Are you jealous?

I gave the WATS because it was a brilliant way to illustrate a point - by your above post you obviously missed it.

Originally posted by Connected
His fictional story is flawed.

Your below point is flawed....

Originally posted by Connected

I highly doubt that Americans would suicide bomb a group of Russian and Chinese forces while they give gifts to little American children, killing them all. That happened in Iraq. Also Americans would not suicide bomb their own people, like they do in Iraq. Major differences. Iraqi's are not afraid of death, that is why they are dieing so much.

Considering we have never been invaded, you pretty much are talking out of your backside here. If we were invaded by a foreign force and I was fighting that foreign occupation, I would most definately fire upon Americans giving aid to the enemy - much as what is happening in Iraq. It isn't a matter of right and wrong, it simply is. Your above post is incredibly ignorant: "Iraqi's are not afraid of death, that is why they are dying so much" - that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Originally posted by Connected
We Americans are not extremists, we will not kill people because they are on our land. If that was so, America would be one major civil war. We won't fight because of false ideas that they are trying to force a religion on us. Also we will not fight unless we have a reason too, meaning, the war wouldn't start in the first place.

What the hell does that even mean? There are many Americans that have extremist views - one need not look any further than this website to see evidence of that. I can GUARANTEE that if a foreign power invaded us for ANY reason, we would most definately be fighting them and we would most definately have a reason. You dont thing Iraqi's have a reason to fight?

Originally posted by Connected
The reason so many people are dieing in Iraq, is because the lawless ones are shooting at the US Forces. If they don't shoot, US forces wont shoot back. Its so damn simple. Yet they don't get it.

Well, that seems simple enough, except that they dont want us there! Whos law are we referring to? We are an invading force in another persons country. Yes some are insurgents, but many are Iraqis that want us the hell out. If we didn't invade in the first place, we wouldn't need to shoot back when people fire on us. Its so damn simple, yet you and the other war supporters dont get it.