2008 Conservative Presidential Candidates

I regard Iran as a greater threat to global security then the US because Bush will leave office in ‘08 [actually on January 20, 2009]. The Iranian nuclear program and the country’s nut job leaders are going to be around for a lot longer then Bush will be. IMO those who regard the US as the greatest threat to global security let there anti Bush sentiment get the best of logic. However it is fair to say that the free world cant afford any more blunders on magnitude of Iraq.

You should be grateful for the parliamentary system, Mr X11, as you can shelve a failed government anytime! B43 would have been gone the day after the November 6, 2006, elections under a parliamentary system. But alas, we are working with a 18th century concept we think was Made in Heaven! Aside: From 1787 to 2007 is 220 years, about 10 generations. Maybe we need another Constitutional Convention as we had in 1787? We should be voting on the internet and the winner taking office the next week. If we can transact billions of dollars worth of business on the internet then we can certainly be secure in our voting! End.

The US is both unwilling and presently incapable of resolving the Arab Israeli problem we created in 1948. Admit it or not, this is the MAJOR underlying recruiting impulse for Arab terrorists around the world. (Remember one man's hero is another man's terrorist. Terror, terrorism and terrorist are Bush43 propaganda words). There will never be peace in the Middle East until that issue is fairly resolved. During the Suez Crisis in 1956 I had been recently discharged from the USAF and I was touring W-DC. I went to the Israeli Embassy to volunteer for service in the air branch of the IDF. After I admitted I did not speak Yiddish, my offer was politely but firmly rejected. Although even younger, I vaguely recall the approving welcome the United Nations creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine received here in 1948.

Aside: In 1948, Pres. Truman was faced with a close and very contentious 4 way election. HST sorely needed the Jewish vote to swing NY and FL into the Dems column. Perhaps he was no more motivated by electoral politics as also by a humanitarian impulse? The UN was completely under the US thumb in 1948. Pictures of the Nazi death camps were still showing in the then popular movie house newsreels, a primary source of visual news before tv. The Nuernberg war crimes trials were set for 1949. Christian Europe knew it was at least passively incriminated in the Nazi Holocaust. For a 1,000 years, priests and ministers had gratuitously harangued Christians from the pulpits of Europe that Jews were “Christ Killers.” That false charge had finally but predictably come home with unimaginable horror. It made otherwise good people insensitive at best, collaborators at worse, and turned them into what we now call “enablers.” The Holocaust. End.

Until we - Americans - genuinely RESPECT and appreciate the significance of the Dome of the Rock and the al Aqsa Mosque to Muslims, we are doomed to more of the Hamas and Hezboolah actions. Christian culture is still operating in the Crusader mode of thinking. According equal status to other religions is not a Christian strong-point. A Muslim infidel is a Christian pagan.

People are funny. Iran is at least 2 years from making a deliverable nuclear weapon, so we are told by our CIA. Pakistan has an unstated number of nuclear weapons at the ready. Bush43 recently congratulated India for its nuclear weapons stockpile, also unnumbered but at the ready.

Both Pakistan and India remain outside the NPT - Non-Proliferation Treaty - but because each is useful to America’s foreign ambitions, we applaud both. North Korea OTOH has enough material to make 2-10 bombs per the CIA. Iran is still in the process of enriching their uranium. 3%-5% of the isotope U235 in the “normal” U238 is needed for power plants, but 70% or better - more is better - is needed for bomb making. (Uranium ore begins as 99.7% U238 and 0.3% of the good stuff, U235). The Darth Vader Death Star quantity is 2 kg. About the size of a golf ball. A critical mass. A self sustaining - unstoppable - chain reaction. The art of bomb making is how to bring 2 one kilogram pieces of uranium 235 together fast enough to meld - melt - the 2 pieces into one, without shattering the metal into a million pieces. Based on the low yield of the NK test bomb last year - 1 kiloton of TNT equivalent per the CIA - it may be the NK has not perfected that very critical process, yet.

So it seems to me, the NK and Iran are not controlled by the White House and therefore are BAD guys, whereas India (slightly) and Pakistan (more) being under White House control are GOOD guys. To which I say B-S!

The inept Bush43 is playing with fire by not enforcing the NPT on every nation on the planet. President - a tile we use for foreign dictators we like - Musharraf who is actually a general of the Pakistani Army was a consensus selection of the Pakistani General Staff. The following election in Pakistan was in conformity with US policy to “legitimatize” our dictator friends. Last week Musharraf made a bargain with the anti-American forces in northern Pakistan to “leave the alone!” So, OBL has moved from Afghan to Pakistan?

This is exactly what we are trying to do in Iraq. We’re trying to legitimize our own hand picked Iraqi government under Prime Minister Noun al Maliki. That is the same way the British “ruled” Iraq from 1922 to 1945. That effort was marked with one failure after another but Iraq was not front and center then. This may be why we cozied up to former PM Blair and he was such a valuable asset for Bush43? But alas, the Brits have turned him out.

I predict if W-DC ever gets nuked, it will be by a Pakistani bomb and not by an Iranian bomb. And the bumbling Bush43 will deserve all the credit!

[edit on 7/14/2007 by donwhite]

Don't worry the MMP system is NZ best political friend even if it means putting up with annoying minor party's but hey its the trade off for true representation . Bush leadership faltered badly after the Taliban government was deposed of rather then following up the battles with the resources needed to win the war and offer more assistance and/or expand the war into the tribal regions of Pakistan . Instead of denying the enemy an haven the Iraq misadventure was embarked upon.

The next president is going to have to deal with the Pakistan problem and come to grips with the fact that Saddam was once smart enough to remain on the right side of US interests. Much more would have been gained by denying the enemy an haven in Pakistan and applying political pressure to Musharraf to restore democracy.

New Zealand.
The Gallagher Index measures how disproportionate an election is.
Election Disproportionality
1946-1993 FPP average 11.10%
1996 4.36%
1999 3.01%
2002 2.53%
2005 1.14%

The Gallagher Index (or least squares index) is used to measure the disproportionality of an electoral outcome, that is the difference between the percentage of votes received and the percentage of seats a party gets in the resulting legislature. This is especially useful for comparing proportionality across electoral systems. The index involves taking the square root of half the sum of the squares of the difference between percent of vote and percent of seats (as whole numbers) for each of the political parties.

From Wikipedia

[edit on 7/14/2007 by donwhite]

Mr X11 says, “Don't worry the MMP system is NZ best political friend even if it means putting up with annoying minor party's but hey it’s the trade off for true representation. Bush leadership faltered badly after the Taliban government was deposed of rather then following up the battles with the resources needed to win the war and offer more assistance and/or expand the war into the tribal regions of Pakistan. Instead of denying the enemy an haven the Iraq misadventure was embarked upon. The next president is going to have to deal with the Pakistan problem and come to grips with the fact that Saddam was once smart enough to remain on the right side of US interests. Much more would have been gained by denying the enemy an haven in Pakistan and applying political pressure to Musharraf to restore democracy.

1) See Wikipedia for an explanation of the MMP system. Mr X11, it is very impressive, but I do not think America could adopt it or adapt it because it takes a higher level of knowledge and understanding that we have been endowed with up here cf. down under. Chicago's Mayor Daley Jr would go for it because each voter gets 2 votes. Hello 1960! cf. Nixon whining over his loss to JFK. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_New_Zealand

2) You have described exactly the path of errors Bush43 embarked upon. To what do you ascribe Bush43's motives for such a disastrous path? Was Bush43 somewhat akin to the Prophet Mohammad peace be unto you, or Joseph Smith, or even Moses? Had B43 received a communique from GOD? “Go Ye therefore into Iraq," saith the Lord, "bringing the fallen away into the House of the Lord.” KJV English. (I don’t claim to know what language GOD speaks but we Protestants think GOD uses Elelizabethan a lot).

3) The inglorious end of America’s misguided involvement in Iraq begins January 20, 2009. The Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq. Intentionally or ignorantly mis-labeled the ‘War on Terror’ by actors who had an agenda we generally label Neo Con. New Conservatives. That discredited vision was there is a 25 years window of opportunity for America, the sole surviving Super Power, to reshape the world into our image. A world where about 0.5% of the people “owned” it and the remaining 99.5% “worked” for the owners. Capitalism at its uttermost. Adam Smith gone to Heaven.

4) Huh? “Restore democracy?” How can you RESTORE that which never existed? Musharraf can tell you the precise number of votes per candidate BEFORE the balloting begins. Like so many of America's ‘valiant’ allies! Like Marco. Mubarak. Etc. Oh, are you mocking Bush43, equating elections with democracy? After the 2000 fiasco even Bush43 would not do that, in a serious vein. Well, OK, B43 does not have a “serious” vein. He can only explain himself ONE way. And he endlessly repeats that weak and somewhat child-like explanation.


PS. A WW2 Buff? Here’s A MUST READ! “The Path To Victory: The Mediterranean Theater in WWII” by Douglas Porch, 2004. Not overly long at 793 pages, it deals with the subject at the divisional level. It turns out the Mediterranean Theater is a microcosm of the greater “Crusade in Europe” that Ike wrote about in his required reading work. Author Porch deals with the African campaign, the never to end British-American rivalry and the constant interference in military operations by Churchill, Roosevelt and other politicians. Where before I was not sure if Overlord’s Eisenhower did not in fact walk on water, now I see he got his shoes wet. Real wet! And Hitler was not the lunatic he is so often portrayed on History Channel. It is essential to understand the Italian Campaign and why Great Britain was so much committed to the defeat of the smaller Afrika Korps. I recommend it.

[edit on 7/14/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


We should be voting on the internet and the winner taking office the next week. If we can transact billions of dollars worth of business on the internet then we can certainly be secure in our voting! End.

How exactly would that work? I can just see the great people that would be "elected". You bash paperless voting in person, yet you want to do the same on the internet?

Until we - Americans - genuinely RESPECT and appreciate the significance of the Dome of the Rock and the al Aqsa Mosque to Muslims, we are doomed to more of the Hamas and Hezboolah actions.

So what about Muslim respect for other Religions? Building a Mosque/Religious site on another person's most sacred site is ok?








[edit on 14-7-2007 by pavil]

Originally posted by pavil
How exactly would that work? [Voting on the internet] I can just see the great people that would be "elected". You bash paperless voting in person, yet you want to do the same on the internet?

I assume it would work like I buy anything on the internet. You give them your credit card number and buy! The seller checks your credit BEFORE they ship. Actually before you leave the website. You could use your bar coded medically complete National Identification Card with picture ID.

My complaint about current touch screen voting machines is the lack of a paper trail. Every voter should get a sequentially numbered “receipt” showing how he voted on each issue or candidate, for his records. No paper trail machines in Orlando “lost” 30,000 votes in 2006.

So what about Muslim respect for other Religions? Building a Mosque/Religious site on another person's most sacred site is ok?

There are no Muslim armies in Christian countries, are there? So Muslim “misconduct” justifies our misconduct? We have no inherent right to go abroad and tell other people how to run their lives or their countries or their religion. Too much hubris, not enough humility. We should lead by example, of which we are not all that replete.

There really is no proof there ever was a Solomon's Temple. It looks to me to be more legendary that real. Regardless, the al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rook are the oldest structures in Jerusalem today. Who owns what is best left to the historians.

[edit on 7/14/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
1) See Wikipedia for an explanation of the MMP system. Mr X11, it is very impressive, but I do not think America could adopt it or adapt it because it takes a higher level of knowledge and understanding that we have been endowed with up here cf. down under. Chicago's Mayor Daley Jr would go for it because each voter gets 2 votes.

It is worth noting that most NZ voters including myself don't know all the ins and outs of the MMP system but most people seem to understand enough so they know how to vote and that your two votes don't have to be for the same party. Should the US ever adapted the MMP and majority rules system (which is about as likely as me winning lotto and I don't buy an ticket. ) then someone like Ron Paul and his party would have about as close as true representation as you can get.

what do you ascribe Bush43's motives for such a disastrous path?

Bush and his cronies were certainly blinded by there political ideology and they failed to grasp that the people of Afghanistan are not the same people or culture as the people of Iraq. I also suspect that invading Iraq was an promise that was kept to certain interests in exchange for them supporting Bush and Cheney election to the White House.

Since the security situation was never faceted in to the war in Iraq I can only assume that the plans in there works were and are for something akin to the Spanish plundering South America just swap gold for privatising Iraq's oil industry.
If planting an democracy in the ME was the priority then why did Bremer sell off the plunder and undermine the legitimacy of any future Iraqi government ?




4) Huh? “Restore democracy?” How can you RESTORE that which never existed? Musharraf can tell you the precise number of votes per candidate BEFORE the balloting begins.

I was referring to restoring or creating an democracy in Pakistan minus any vote rigging and so on. overview

Thanks for the tip on the book I will keep an eye out for it.

Jim Gilmore becomes the first dropout:



Hmm, I notice I didn't even have him listed as a candidate in the OP.... Maybe that was his problem!

Jim who ?
Does anybody care ?
Something must have gone wrong because even Ron Paul who is up against the odds to win the Republican nomination has an noticeable profile.

How could an candidate fail to promote themselves so badly ?

Maybe an balanced budget is just considered to Liberal today. Jim appears to have an genuine stance on abortion that should have appealed to the Republican base who have yet to embrace anybody including the frontrunner Rudy.

As Governor, Gilmore signed into law legislation establishing a 24-hour waiting period and informed consent for women seeking an abortion, as well as a ban against partial birth abortion. Gilmore increased funding for adoption services. He also signed into law a bill that banned human cloning. In 1999, Gilmore went to court to try to prevent the removal of a feeding tube of coma victim Hugh Finn. As Attorney General of Virginia, Gilmore had defended a legal challenge to Virginia's first parental notification law for minors seeking abortions

source



[edit on 15-7-2007 by xpert11]

[edit on 15-7-2007 by xpert11]

Originally posted by xpert11
It is worth noting that most NZ voters including myself don't know all the ins and outs of the MMP system but most people seem to understand enough so they know how to vote and that your two votes don't have to be for the same party. Should the US ever adapted the MMP and majority rules system (which is about as likely as me winning lotto and I don't buy an ticket. ) then someone like Ron Paul and his party would have about as close as true representation as you can get.

Elsewhere here I have posted the recent numbers on GOP candidates. I forget which website I visited but I got there by Google. “Current presidential polls.” Mr Ron Paul holds steady over the March - July polls at 1% which is not encouraging to his supporters. IMO Libertarians are dreamers and avoid-ers. They dream of a simpler world where a hand shake cements a contract and household doors are not locked at night. They seem to want to ignore the myriad needs of a large experiment in sociology like the United States. “Ignorance is bliss” so they say. But otherwise generally nice fellows. The kind of guy you’d enjoy adding to your Saturday morning coffee call at the local library for an hours friendly discussion of the week’s main events.

Since the security situation was never faceted in to the war in Iraq I can only assume that the plans in there works were and are for something akin to the Spanish plundering South America just swap gold for privatizing Iraq's oil industry. If planting an democracy in the ME was the priority then why did Bremer sell off the plunder and undermine the legitimacy of any future Iraqi government?

Yeah, America’s publicly owned gold. America’s private goal is to impose a friendly, pliant, obligated group of rascals who will do our bidding on the matters we regard as consequential. We hand picked 1,500 “eligible” candidates for the Iraqi Parliament. We excused that by claiming we were ruling out the evil pro-Hussein Baathists. That made the subterfuge acceptable to almost everyone, even to many if not most Iraqis. We hand wrote the new Iraqi Constitution. We maneuvered the current government into place. We excluded anyone who opposes us on the grounds of anti-terrorism. The pride of Iraqi nationalism sprang forth slowly around the country. Educated Iraqis began to realize what was happening to them. Many began to say, “Even if Saddam was a devil, he was OUR devil.”

America has a steamroller style propaganda machine at work in Iraq that Der Fuhrer's ever loyal Herr Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of. Iraqi objectors are labeled “insurgents” and shot on sight by USMC and Army Strong types. It may be possible that even the otherwise astute Tony Blair was caught up in the razzle-dazzle process? (I’m unwilling to easily label him a co-conspirator). I regret to say, we are the biggest terrorist organization in Iraq today.

You are witnessing an almost perfect re-run of the Vietnam scenario. Let us hope the next president is not another Richard Nixon. He promised in 1968 to “end the war.” Yet, Nixon took 5 years to get our troops out of Vietnam. 22,000 GIs went KIA under him and that evil man, Henry Kissinger. Hubris. In lethal proportions. And we killed about 500,000 Vietnamese but we never seem to mention that. People of color? Why remind the good folks at home of the less-than niceties of war? It might disturb their sleep. And is it not true that Orientals do not value life as we Occidentals? Hmm?

Our O7-O10* American military personnel are caught between the “rock and a hard place.” They are not political, and have been taught since birth reinforced by the 4 years at the academes that the military must be subject to the political figures imposed over them by the electorate. Even the more alert and decent types take the attitude “this too will pass away” and let lt go on without objection or Heaven forbid, resigning in protest.

I wish Congress would offer the new OBL reward to the first person in a high post in America who resigned in protest. Maybe that old time custom can be resurrected? The grandest act of patriotism a 4 star general can make since his is NOT going to be “in harms way” on a patrol in 120 deg temp, fully clothed, in a hostile neighborhood in old Baghdad, one of he oldest continuously occupied cities on the Face of the Planet.

Not at all. The generals will be ensconced in an air conditioned multi room suite in a luxury hotel “hidden” somewhere in the Green Zone. The SAFE zone. Where the ELITE meet to eat! Geez. If we pay Halliburton $15 per MRE, what do you think we taxpayers are stiffed for by the 24/7 Room Service to order in such “secure” hotels? Sweet Jesus Come Quick!

But alas, here I am waxing nostalgic and just above I faulted Libertarians for doing the same thing!

*O7-O10
Refers to the top 4 pay grades of the military and naval establishment. General and flag officers. DW

[edit on 7/15/2007 by donwhite]

Don it is worth noting even under MMP an party has to get at least five percent of the party vote to win any seats. So assuming the current polls are correct Ron would have to win an electoral seat in order to gain representation in congress or parliament . No politician can expect to achieve much when they are polling at one percent.
Ron Paul may represent conservatives who have been deserted by the Republican party but with the current corporate interests pulls the strings on the puppets people like him wont get very far.

IMO even if Ron had an more forward looking view rather then relying on ideas from the founding of the US he still wouldn't get far.

I guess the logical question for American voters is do you change the people and there backers who run for office or do you overhaul the political system ?
Put another way do you try and get people like Justin and Don elected in the current political frame work or do you go hard core for an overall of the US political system ?

I wonder if Justin is going to give us his take on all of this.



[edit on 15-7-2007 by xpert11]

Don it is worth noting even under MMP an party has to get at least five percent of the party vote to win any seats. So assuming the current polls are correct Ron would have to win an electoral seat in order to gain representation in congress or parliament . No politician can expect to achieve much when they are polling at one percent. Ron Paul may represent conservatives who have been deserted by the Republican party but with the current corporate interests pulls the strings on the puppets people like him wont get very far. IMO even if Ron had an more forward looking view rather then relying on ideas from the founding of the US he still wouldn't get far.

OK, X11. But don't the native peoples - the Monai - /sp?/ - get seats even though they do not poll the requisite 5%? Now it’s your system but I’m thinking the second vote could elect a person to a seat who was either an independent or who belonged to a party that polled fewer than 5% on the first vote? What say you?

Ob/Gyn medical doctor Ron Paul was a Libertarian who turned Republican to get elected in always right wing Texas. Libertarians are much like the French Philosophes of the 18th century. Good fellows but not many of them.

I guess the logical question for American voters is do you change the people and there backers who run for office or do you overhaul the political system? Put another way do you try and get people like Justin and Don elected in the current political frame work or do you go hard core for an overall of the US political system ? I wonder if Justin is going to give us his take on all of this.

First, I believe Justin is on a weeks long speaking tour related to his books and his well-regarded conservative posture for talk radio shows. Next, neither the Dems nor the GOP are in the slightest interested in any meaningful electoral reforms. Each party has its own group of backers. FYI, the Dems actually raised $5 million more than the GOP in 2004. $565 million to $560 million. That’s all candidates over the 4 year cycle. Big money got smart. Give to both sides and you can't lose! Yet another segment that does not want viable 3rd parties. Or publicly financed elections. Or Internet Voting!

Publicly financed elections are a must if democracy is to be meaningful in America. Or anywhere. Today we over here are not much better off than a typical Iraqi, except it is not so hot here. Athenian-type democracy remains illusory to both. Americans thoughtlessly and predictably - nay ritualistically - oppose a publicly supported electoral process. They are oblivious - brainwashed - to the simple fact our elections are for sale to the highest bidders. The richest country in the world for sale every 4 years for a paltry couple billion dollars! Something to DIE for!

The one real but unintended blessing of Americans’ total ignorance of the past is we do not have Protestants killing Catholics, Catholics killing Jews, Jews killing Muslims and all of them killing Native Americans and African Americans. We know darn near nothing of what happened before 1607 and are dam proud of it! Wow!

[edit on 7/15/2007 by donwhite]

The number of Maori seats is depended on the number of Maori people who chose to go on the Maori electoral roll. The Maori seats have electoral boundaries so they are still electoral seats. So if an party wins an Maori seat or just an electoral seat(s) they can be represented in parliament without gaining five percent of the party vote.

The electoral seats represent an geographical area and the list MP represent the percentage of the party vote that an political party has gained rather then any geographical area.

So if you were to vote for an independent you would use your electoral vote and then you would cast your 2nd vote so to speak for the party of your choice. MMP ensures that when the two main party's fail to represent an element of the population such as Maori people don't go without there demcratic right to representation . MPs will sometimes break away from one of the two major party's and form there own party in order to ensure that democracy functions. The Maori party is the perfect example of this.

So under an MMP system Ron Paul would break away from the Republican party along with any like minded people and join the libertarian party. Then Ron and co would have an good chance of capturing the libertarian and libertarian minded Republicans vote. Once they have representation in office the libertarian party would be able to keep the Republican party honest.




Maori seats are explained here .

Hello, folks. Looks like you've been busy while I've been away. Much to do. Many things going on. Lots happening to American conservatives.

Now that harriet Miers has skipped on her subpoena, the Congress is headed for a Constitutional showdown with the President. Yet one more things with which to bludgeion the GOP with in November. There's an arrogance at work there that will keep many future historians busy when they look back on this period.

So far, the Democrat controlled Congress shows no signs of stopping the Bush juggernaught. Before we go any further, let's dispell one myth right now. The Dems aren't being "weak." They've made a strategic decision. They want the authorities that Mr. Bush has claimed for himself. they want to use that power for their own ends. If they challenge him in a court of law...which they should...they risk the loss of all the power.

So, what's a good conservative to do? A "real" conservative would do what any good citizen should do...regardless of political affiliation. We should all be pushing the Congress to mount legal challenges to many of Mr. Bush's subpoena-inspired assertions. Why? No elected leader can resist the opportunity to use the power of a Unitary Executive. It's like asking Frodo to carry the ring with him...just a little while longer....

posted by Justin Oldham
Hello, folks. Looks like you've been busy while I've been away. Much to do. Many things going on. Lots happening to American conservatives.

Now that Harriet Miers has skipped on her subpoena, the Congress is headed for a Constitutional showdown with the President. Yet one more things with which to bludgeon the GOP with in November. There's an arrogance at work there that will keep many future historians busy when they look back on this period. So far, the Democrat controlled Congress shows no signs of stopping the Bush juggernaught. Before we go any further, let's dispel one myth right now. The Dems aren't being "weak." They've made a strategic decision. They want the authority that Mr. Bush has claimed for himself. They want to use that power for their own ends. If they challenge him in a court of law...which they should...they risk the loss of all the power.

So, what's a good conservative to do? A "real" conservative would do what any good citizen should do...regardless of political affiliation. We should all be pushing the Congress to mount legal challenges to many of Mr. Bush's subpoena-inspired assertions. Why? No elected leader can resist the opportunity to use the power of a Unitary Executive. It's like asking Frodo to carry the ring with him...just a little while longer....

J/O and I disagree on the desirability, democratically speaking, of a strong central government. He labels that as a “unitary executive.” As if any executive was not unitary? At least in its effect if not its intent.

Not since Rome’s Julius Caesar joined with Pompey as co-consuls have we seen a successful government with two heads and that one did not last for long. Non-unitary government carried to its logical extreme reminds me of the last desperate effort of the Romans, when in the last of the 3rd century, Diocletian joined with Maxmilian along with Caninus and Numerian to be 2 co-emperors of the East and 2 co-emperors of the West, giving us a 4 headed rulership. That conglomeration to me most nearly resembled the Greek goddess Hydra. Or is J/O invoking the unprovable doctrine of the Holy Trinity into civil governance?

Let’s take a look at the Chief Magistrates of the United States during the 20th century and the first 7 years of the 21st century. TR, strong, Taft, weak, Wilson strong then weak, Harding, weak, Coolidge, weak, Hoover, weak, FDR strong, HST not as strong, Eisenhower, weak, JFK strong , LBJ stronger, RMN, strongest, Ford, weak, JC, no, not Jesus but Jimmy, weak, RR, strong, Bush41, mild, Clinton, strong and Bush43, strongest by far.

Our attitude or perception of the executive depends on 2 things, at least. 1) Whether the person exercising the inherent power of the executive is our man or their’s, and 2) the extent the powers are utilized or over-utilized. Now here I must invoke the FFs, reluctantly, and say they provided us with a check and balance on power which can control the run-away executive. There is where we have failed. Not the executive so much as the Article 1 branch, Congress. The 535 Members of Congress have let us down. They voted the money for Guantanamo Bay. For rendition. For secret prisons we do not know of even today. The Executive can do nothing without funding. Only Congress can provide funds.

In bargaining between the two branches, the president has the advantage. It is comparatively easy to split 535 people in segments and play one off against the other. It is very difficult for the larger group to unite on any particular issue and then to stay united over a period of time. But it can happen. We are watching how difficult it is, but how persistence and right can ultimately make it happen. It is playing out daily in the Senate. If you grant the Dems have 50 votes, and need 60, then it comes down to 109 Republicans holding the balance of power. But they have problems, too. There are 49 Republicans, Then Dems can bargain behind the scenes with all 49, hoping to find 10 who will “switch sides.” Wow, governance is not all earmarks and taxpayer funded overseas jaunts.

[edit on 7/16/2007 by donwhite]

I could buy in to what you're saying if the balance of power still existed. It does not. Both parties have fought long and hard for a shot at total power. The Republicans have been handicapped since their inception due to several factors that we've already kicked around. I don't believe that anti-Federalists were doomed to lose from the start, but I do think they've been out maneuvered time and time again. Their failure was not ordained, but they have...in the last 20 years...failed to appreciate their situation. If I had to place the blame for the demise of today's GOP on just one person (which is not realistic), I would pick Newt Gingrich. As an architect of recent Republican strategies, he has failed to succeed on the tactical level. He was and still is a very good grand strategist, but even I would whip his butt down in the mud where the real work gets done.

The Republican party and its 08 candidates seems to be lost and trapped by the war they wanted so badly in Iraq.
Here is the kind of issue the Republican candidates see this thread the US government has more money then sense !
Surely this example of gross wastage of tax payer dollars and the inefficiently of government.
Then again didn't Bush create the Department of Homeland security one massive bureaucracy ?
Newt is an fruit cake and I am sure that Hillary or Barrack would love to run against that guy.

[edit on 16-7-2007 by xpert11]

Scary stuff, to be sure. I can imagine a scenario in which the GOP performs so badly in the '08 elections that President Bush says there must have been election tampering. Imagine the temptation he might face to stay in office...until that 'problem' is resolved.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Scary stuff, to be sure. I can imagine a scenario in which the GOP performs so badly in the '08 elections that President Bush says there must have been election tampering. Imagine the temptation he might face to stay in office...until that 'problem' is resolved.

This is just my 10 cents.
Well if anything like that was ever going to happen it would have occurred in 2000. The constitution aside such an move would be politically damaging for the Republicans because Bill Clinton could rightfully claim the moral high ground because he left office and waited for the Supreme Court to decided the election.

If you swap election tampering with an terrorist attack then it is an whole differnt and much more scary story.

posted by xpert11
This is just my 10 cents. Well if anything like that was ever going to happen it would have occurred in 2000. The constitution aside such an move would be politically damaging for the Republicans because Bill Clinton could rightfully claim the moral high ground because he left office and waited for the Supreme Court to decided the election. If you swap election tampering with an terrorist attack then it is an whole different and much more scary story.

I did not move to Florida until 2003. I watched with eager anticipation as the 2000 Florida vote counting scenario unfolded on CBS News. I have never watched FOX, I have always hated Rupert Murdoch. News reporters - wanna be journalists? - repeated a lot of dumb stuff that was obviously - to me - from a handout by one or the other sides. After that fiasco I am ashamed to hear any of our public officials denigrate another country's electoral process. The US Supreme Court shut down the re-count in Florida with more than 15,000 votes unexamined. “That’s enough,” they said, when the Republicans were 537 votes ahead. “End it there.” And forever after we cannot claim our Federal judiciary is non-partisan.

I was especially chagrined over the US servicemen absentee voting by mail brouhaha. Having done 5 years in the USAF, I have voted by mail many times. In order to keep your vote secret, there are 2 envelopes. After voting, you insert the marked ballot into a plain envelope and seal it. Across the tab is a space for you to sign your name, in such a way as to discourage opening the envelope by unauthorized persons. This envelope is in its turn and in the presence of a commissioned officer in the case of EM, or a fellow officer if a commissioned officer, inserted in the second envelope both furnished by the state. It is also "licked" and sealed. On the back side - reverse- there is a jurat, that is, a pre-printed form for the swearing. The voter takes an oath he has voted in accordance to law and signs his name. The person empowered to administer oaths or to make such certification, then signs his name and inserts the date. Most states - back then anyway - required the ballot to be mailed back to the county election officer so as to arrive the day before the election. I think arriving as late as election day is now OK.

All too many GIs failed to follow the instructions about signing and getting their signature properly certified. In 2000, a lot of ballots arrived after the deadline. Normally this is no problem. But in 2000, the presidency was at stake! As you know, the official vote margin is given as 537 votes out of 6 million + votes cast. There were about 10,000 military absentee voters. It was assumed by everyone the military voters would favor Bush43 by a hefty margin, say 55% to 45%. Or even 60% to 40%. The ghost of Vietnam hangns overf the military. Dems therefore wanted the proper signing and established arrival date rules strictly enforced. GOPs on the other hand, wanted all ballots counted without regard to compliance with established rules. The GOPs made it into an unpatriotic act to deny a military ballot! You're not supporting the troops, they chanted. My complaint about the so-called journalists was they never explained why there was any issue over a military absentee ballot.

Governor Jeb - James Earl - Bush knowingly used a “felon” list prepared by a GOP approved sub-contractor that included 35,000 names of people who had been “accused” of or “charged” with felonies but who either had pled “guilty” to a reduced charge, a misdemeanor, or had the cases dismissed, which did not disqualify them to vote. That 80% of the names on that discredited list were blacks was consistent with the GOPs post 1933 disdain for black voters. The Florida Republicans tried to use that same list in 2006. Like snapping turtles, they will not turn loose until it thunders. Q. How can anyone support a political party that adheres to such anti-American ideals?

Even in Iraq, using finger marking ink, they do a better job in holding elections than we can do in Florida or Ohio. And etc. It is no wonder Iraq's al Maliki is growing weary of reading in the Times of London how much displeasure the Americans have over Iraq. “Be gone and good riddance!”

[edit on 7/17/2007 by donwhite]