2008 Conservative Presidential Candidates

You do not have to testify to the Grand Jury nor do you have to answer questions put to you by the FBI, but if you do either or both, then you must tell the truth. Or plead the 5th Amendment. Which that tells the interrogators you do have something to hide so they work all the harder to catch you. Which may explain why some people take the risk to lie to the FBI and Grand Juries.

Originally posted by xpert11
I hold NZ politicians to high standard as well its just that I judge them based on policy rather then there personal lives unless they have committed an criminal offence. Justin I grasped what are saying but it does seem at odds with the people who are defending the outing of an CIA agent ID . If there was no wrong doing there would have been no reason for Libby to commit perjury. Oh well I will chalk this one down to the different cultural mind set Americans have to the rest of the western world.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
The purgery test is one of our oldest and simplest legal concepts. When Mr. Libby's story didn't match the one told by everyone whom his lawyer called to the stand . . he got spanked. The actuality matter of Valery Plames covert status is still a matter of some debate here in America. The mere fact that her name came up at all seems to be enough to get some people mad. Having failed his purgerry test, Mr. Libby was due for an appeal. The fact that Mr. Bush decided to move before that appeal does strongly suggest that there is a lot of bad stuff going on that we don't know about.

Ron Suskind’s well documented and best selling 2006 book, “The 1% Doctrine . . “ puts Libby squarely in the midst of Cheney and Bush43 as the three of them along with Rumsfeld conspired and plotted the (illicit) entry of the US into Iraq by force of arms. War. A non-conspirator but an all-too-willing enabler George Tenant allowed the CIA to be co-opted by Cheney and Libby with Bush43's full and consensual fore-knowledge.

It was pure serendipity when the uninvolved Dick Armitage of the DoD let it slip to Robert Novak that Mrs. Wilson nee Plame was a (covert) CIA agent. Novak (a long time avidly pro Republican columnist) then put it in his column probably not realizing she was “covert.” The disclosure of her identify was meant to negate the impact of Joe Wilson's story, by accusing her of nepotism. Her “outing” was prohibited by Federal criminal laws and pure Cheney-esque! This American ‘slip-up’ put at risk the life of every person abroad she had had any contact with.

This was the same time when her husband, the former Ambassador Joe Wilson had just published an op-ed piece in the NYT disputing the claims by the White House that Saddam had attempted to buy “yellow cake” uranium from Niger. The basis of that (false) claim proved to be papers perhaps forged in Italy perhaps to “sell” to the CIA?

No one has yet explained how Dick Armitage came to know Plame was a covert CIA operative. He apparently did not have a “need to know” this info but the FBI had nothing to say about that. “Secret,” you know. Bush43 has signed over 500 SECRET orders in his role as Commander-in-Chief.

Libby apparently had lied to the FBI investigators - itself a crime - and then he gave false testimony to the Grand Jury - another stand alone crime - perhaps under what later proved to be Libby's own mistaken impression that VP Cheney was the leak source. Libby has always been a “fall on the sword” type fellow as was Oliver North under Bush41.

I note in the CIA World Factbook, that NZ is about 100,000 square miles, the approximate size of Colorado, and has 4.1 million people. Close to that of Colorado. The average age is given as 34 years, getting older as countries go today. Unexpected (by me) is the No Religion given by 26% of the population in the 2001 census. Add to that most of the Unspecified Religion 17% and half (my guess) of the (mostly pro forma) 12% Anglicans, and you have close to a majority! Wow!

Q. X11, for which kings are the Three Kings Islands named?

NZ imports about 80% of its crude oil - the US imports about 70% - but NZ is self-sufficient in natural gas. Unemployment at 3.8% is very low by our standards. Quote: “Over the past 20 years the government has transformed New Zealand from an agrarian economy largely dependent on traditional concession to British market access to a more industrialized, free market economy that can compete globally. This dynamic growth has boosted real incomes (but left behind many at the bottom of the ladder), broadened and deepened the technological capabilities of the industrial sector, and contained inflationary pressures. Per capita income has risen for eight consecutive years . . “ So saith the CIA. And etc.

[edit on 7/9/2007 by donwhite]

Hmm.

Tasman anchored at the islands when searching for water. As it was the Twelfth Night feast of the Epiphany, the day the biblical three kings known as the wise men visited Christ the child, he named the islands accordingly. Tasman also named the northern tip of the North Island

Source

The only peoples income that has been boasted are the people who have moved to Australia.
Interestingly the was an story on the TV news last night which concerned the Catholic Church in NZ. It turns out that there is an shortage of Catholic Priests despite the fact that the Catholic Church is the fastest growing Religion here in NZ.

As for Natural Gas well the problem is just like the one with oil at some point the existing fields are going to run out of and we will have to tap into Natural Gas elsewhere or find an alternative source of energy. NZ has always been socially progressive we were the first to give Women the vote in 1892. Today Civil Unions are available to same sex and heterosexual couples.

The political system is very much geared towards representation and rather then relying on check sums and balances any political system based on the British system of government is based upon on a majority is needed to govern.

One final note on NZ clean green image tourists come here and find that they cant recycle batteries.

I invite members of the panel to come and visit NZ and experience this part of the world.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by xpert11]

[edit on 9-7-2007 by xpert11]

Returning to the focus of the topic.
Before the spilt and polish has even been applied to Republican supporters knight in shining armour his armour has been dented already. Fred Thompson has been linked to an attempted to loosen the restrictions on Federal funding for abortion. I offer this thread .

Surely Fred and his team would have known that stuff like this would come out. Maybe it is another indicator that Fred isnt interested in running and that he is just testing the waters or drawing attention to himself.

I now present an another example of good old fashion Republican family values. If this guy had an differnt letter next to his name the RR would have been calling for his head but because he says that he has asked for forgiveness from god everything is of course OK.

"This was a very serious sin in my past for which I am, of course, completely responsible," Vitter said in the statement. "Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling. Out of respect for my family, I will keep my discussion of the matter there -- with God and them. But I certainly offer my deep and sincere apologies to all I have disappointed and let down in any way."

The statement containing Vitter's apology said his telephone number was on old phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates before he ran for the Senate.

Source

My mother used to say that good behavior was good behavior, no matter how you said it. I've never had so much money that I could afford much in the way of vice. I have enjoyed what little I could afford, and I'm not afraid to admit that. I regret very much that my fellow Republicans who are blessed with a chance to serve our country are so...handicapped.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
My mother used to say that good behavior was good behavior, no matter how you said it. I've never had so much money that I could afford much in the way of vice. I have enjoyed what little I could afford, and I'm not afraid to admit that. I regret very much that my fellow Republicans who are blessed with a chance to serve our country are so...handicapped.

How far money goes is all relative If won two million dollars in lotto winnings I wouldn't have to do an days work for the rest of my life. However in terms of an presidential two million dollars wouldn't even be seen as small change.

I had the pleasure to meet a man named Vego Barnes who had spent his adult life in politics. I don’t know and did not ask where the name VEGO came from. He was an ordinary overweight half rich white fellow from my home county, Jefferson. He was Commissioner of Economic Security, the New Deal name for the unemployment insurance bureau.

That by the way is a tax on employers, starting at 3.2% of payroll up to a variable amount, say today $45,000 a year. Each employer has its own account. When the positive balance reaches a pre-set reserve amount, the 3.2% is lowered to ultimately reading the 0.5% which is the Federal tax and is always payable.

Unemployment insurance is payable at 2/3rds the average weekly wage for the first 4 of the last 5 quarters of earnings up to a limit, currently $550 per week. The benefit is paid for up to 26 weeks and in hard times, the time payable may be extended in 13 week increments. States are required by law to buy US Treasury paper with any surplus or reserve. No Michael Milken junk bonds, thank you. At the Federal level, this is another of those (New Deal) Trust Funds that is “empty.”

Mr Barnes told me that if a candidate had to use his own money, he should not run. Which is to say, if you cannot get enough people who know you to support you financially - put your money where your mouth is - then you really have no business in politics.

[edit on 7/10/2007 by donwhite]

Like I said, Fred is in a secure location at the moment showing off his dirty laundry to his advisors, and they're possibly re-thinking that Presidential run.

When the cowardly VP Cheney and Bush43 ran and hid on Nine Eleven Event day, I suspect the “secure place” for VP Cheney was Cheyenne Mountain. We know from the Commission Report that Bush43 ran from airport to airport. What do you think Sir Winston Churchill would have done?

[edit on 7/10/2007 by donwhite]

As a matter of historical record, Churchill stayed in London for the duration of the war, except for the secret missions to negotiate with FDR and Stalin. Within two hours of he 9/11 attacks, I said to friends and collegues that if Mr. Bush didn't hustle on up to New York to stand on that rubble, he'd never ben forgiven.

Fred Thompson's current silence is proof that you can run but you can't hide. i ahve no shame for what I've done, so I can't relate to what he must be going through. The great Republican hope, trying to remember anything he may have done that would be frowned upon. Sheesh. I know people would come after me for whatever they could find, but I can sleep well enough knowing that their is not much to be found.

Q. What do you think Sir Winston Churchill would have done, J/O?

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
As a matter of historical record, Churchill stayed in London for the duration of the war, except for the secret missions to negotiate with FDR and Stalin. Within two hours of he 9/11 attacks, I said to friends and colleagues that if Mr. Bush didn't hustle on up to New York to stand on that rubble, he'd never be forgiven. Fred Thompson's current silence is proof that you can run but you can't hide. I have no shame for what I've done, so I can't relate to what he must be going through. The great Republican hope, trying to remember anything he may have done that would be frowned upon. Sheesh. I know people would come after me for whatever they could find, but I can sleep well enough knowing that there is not much to be found.

Sir Winston Spencer-Churchill. A British aristocrat. Winston's father, Lord Randolph Churchill, was the third son of the 7th Duke of Marlborough. Winston's mother, Lady Randolph Churchill (née Jennie Jerome), was the daughter of American millionaire of English descent. Churchill was born two months premature in a bedroom in Blenheim Palace in Woodstock, Oxfordshire on 30 November 1874. He arrived eight months after his parents' hasty marriage. We all know what that meant in the pre-pill days. Premarital sex gone awry. Miss 2 periods and the honorable gentlemen married the young lady. The resulting child was always described in polite society as “premature” with a wink. But doctors say it is weight that defines mature/premature. 5.5 pounds. That weight or more, full term, less, not full term. Human gestation is given as 240-300 days.

Young Winston fought in the Second Boer War in South Africa and had been captured by the Boers but managed to escape to neutral Portugese territory. Later, he led a battalion on the Western Front in the First World War. He also held such lofty posts as First Lord of the Admiralty - equal to our own Secretary of Navy - and Chancellor of the Exchequer, the #2 post in Britain’s parliamentary government. See Foot Note. Akin to the US if we unified the departments of Treasury and Commerce with the Bureau of the Budget, IRS and the Vice Presidency all under one head.

He was made a Knight of the Garter the highest chivalric order in the British Isles and solemnly pledged personal defenders (to the death) of the Crown, in lieu of elevation to a Lordship. cf Margaret Thatcher. Never a commoner, and unexpectedly turned out of office in 1945 by commoners, Winston nevertheless recognized the common man of England like the longbow man of old to be the bulwark of the empire for which he never lost his love or devotion.

I rank Churchill the most significant person of the 20th century.

Fred Thompson. What gives? A non-descript former senator from Tennessee, he left the senate to a better paying job on televison. Opportunistic? Not evidence of strong devotion to public service, eh? In May, rumors became stories when Fred resigned from “Law and Order.” A ‘ground swell’ - perhaps orchestrated more by his staff than real and helped along by friendly pressmen? - had by June pushed him to the #2 position in GOP hopeful polls. He boasted of raising “millions” in just one conference call to unidentified “good ole boys.” No devotee of transparency he. Perhaps those civic minded gifts had conditions attached? Conditions Fred cannot meet?

After setting July 4 as his “coming out” day and then missed it, maybe he’ll try for the working man’s vote by “coming out” on the first Monday in September? In Detroit no less? Or is Fred to be just another foot note in the run-up to 2008? Sort of what to do "between jobs?"


Foot Note. Churchil. He was appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1924 under Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin. He oversaw Britain's disastrous return to the Gold Standard, which resulted in deflation, unemployment, and led to the General Strike of 1926. This decision prompted the economist John Maynard Keynes to write The Economic Consequences of Mr. Churchill, arguing in it that the return to the gold standard at the pre-war parity would lead to a world depression.

Churchill later regarded this as the greatest mistake of his life; he stated he was not an economist and he acted on the advice of the Governor of the Bank of England. However Churchill acknowledged that the return to the gold standard and the resulting 'dear money' policy was economically bad. He maintained the policy as fundamentally political - a wish to return to the pre war conditions in which he so strongly believed. From Wikipedia.

[edit on 7/11/2007 by donwhite]

It seems clear to me at this point in time that none of the Republicans can get traction on any of their pet issues entirely be-cause of the war. In one respect, I can see how they have a little in common with Mr. Churchill. During the run-up to World War Two, Churchill was critical of his government in ways that made him very much unpopular. In our modern context, the GOP members in the House, Senate, and Presidential races, lack the fortitutde to say what must be said and do what must be done.

If we could whistle up another 50,000 troops, I say send 'em. But...we can't. I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who has a son of miltiary age. He's beside himself with grief over his choice to lean on the boy to NOT go in to the Army. Like my own, his is a family with a long milirary tradition. Knowing the lad as I do, I suspect he will join up anyway. Father and son have no confidence in our current leadership, but they are a house divided when it comes to service. I mention all of this becuase that's just how modern Republicans are divided.

The GOP Convention is being held in St Paul MN on Sept 1 to Sept 4.
The Dems Convention is being held in Denver CO on Aug 25 to Aug 28.

posted by djohnsto77
Rudy Giuliani - NY
John McCain - AZ
Mitt Romney - MA
Condi Rice - CA (she says no, but we're still hoping?)
Newt Gingrich - GA (another?)
Tom Tancredo - CO
Ron Paul - TX
Mike Huckabee - AR
Sam Brownback - KS
Fred Thompson - TN
Tommy Thompson - WI
Duncan Hunter - CA

So DJ7, how’s it looking for president #44 as we move into mid-summer of 2007? It is still 1 year, 3 months and 23 days until the final poll, the November 4 election. That figures to be 479 days. (Today being July 11).

Rudy Giuliani remains #1 in the GOP hopeful polls. This lengthy tenure points to his staying power in the GOP rank and file. That despite constant harping by the talking heads about his marriages and divorces, his lack of family contact. He is weak on anti-choice and sympathetic to homosexuals. He is haunted by his general ineptitude at governance until that fateful day, September 11, 2001, when he came into his own. He faced down all the challenges of that horrendous day. He stood ALONE, the personification of the real heroes, the NYFD and etc. The only public figure in America the people could admire. The bottom line question then is this, does one day's work qualify him to be president?

VP Cheney, always over-valuing himself, ran off to Cheyenne Mountain. Bushr43 was mortified in a Florida elementary school and instead of returning to the White House to become Commander in Chief, his only life goal, he went airborne and remained aloft out of harms way, until the USAF could guarantee his personal safety at Offutt AFB, home of the successor to the old LeMay SAC. Remember it was Curtis LeMay who ordered 30,000 of Eugene Stoner's AR15 that Congress later refused to pay for but that ultimately evolved into the M16, the #2 assault weapon of all time.

The surprise is Fred Thompson, who runs #2 in most GOP polls but now has missed his own ‘coming out’ day of July 4. Every day he delays now is another self inflicted shot in the foot. I'm thinking he refuses to 'come out' because he does not want to file the required finance forms. Hmmm? No devotee of transparency, he. See my remarks on Fred in another thread. PTS: Will Hillary Clinton Be The Next U.S. President?

John McCain, a hero of the Vietnam War, is too old. He is re-fighting his last war. We lost the war in Vietnam because bullets cannot kill ideas. We are losing the Iraq war for the same reason. McCain is about to call it quits, too. IMO.

Mit Romney, a successful businessman turned to government, acquired a good reputation in Massachusetts. Not a plus for Red State hard liners. He has a lot of baggage however, due to his choice of religion which is often described as a fringe cult. I’d ask Romney to pull the JFK West Virginia confrontation to put that behind him. He cannot rely on others to do that for him. I see him as a VP candidate behind Giuliani.

Condoleezza Rice is more hallucination than even wishful-thinking. She is a failure as Secretary of State and when her contribution or non-contribution to the disgusting run-up to the Iraq War is publicized, she’s going to head back to a sinecure post in academia.

Newt Gingrich is like my grandfather - before he died - wily but weak. If you think Reagan slept too much while in office, at least he had the early onset of Alzheimer to blame. Newt is just bankrupt in new ideas. A No Show. IMO.

I think Tom Tancredo, Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, Sam Brownback, Tommy Thompson and Duncan Hunter have no chance at all. They may be like Fred Thompson, mostly job hunting. Enhancing their curriculum vitae. I do not think any of them will get one delegate to the St Paul GOP Convention.

Who's On First? See www.mcsweeneys.net/2005/3/4gavaler.html

[edit on 7/11/2007 by donwhite]

I've got to say that the Sarah Taylor testimony was...well, it was. Yet another nail in the GOP coffin, to be sure. I'm really sorry tos ee that. It wasn't hard to guess that Harriet "Supreme Court" Miers would blow off her summons. What else can she do? Anything she says will only throw fuel on the fire. I can't recall ever seeing anything this hostile on Capitol Hill before.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I've got to say that the Sarah Taylor testimony was...well, it was. Yet another nail in the GOP coffin, to be sure. I'm really sorry ToS ee that. It wasn't hard to guess that Harriet "Supreme Court" Meers would blow off her summons. What else can she do? Anything she says will only throw fuel on the fire. I can't recall ever seeing anything this hostile on Capitol Hill before.

Like Monica Goodly before her, we are seeing the quality of people that Bush43 and his ideologically driven AG has put into office. The guy is a thinly disguised religious wacko. B43 is not a genuine Republican, he’s more like Ron Paul, a goof-ball in GOP disguise.

I suppose the House can vote to hold her in contempt for refusing to respond to the legally issued subpoena. That does not require the Senate approval, so it will be on a straight party line vote.

Then of course, the President’s reassuring “I can’t recall, I can’t remember, I don’t know” AG will go to the SC - 4 votes in his hand - to have the “3 co-equal branches” ruling. The yokels currently on the bench are not in the same league as the men who sat on the Nixon court. They were patriots who returned a unanimous decision the tapes were public property. Roberts Scalia Alito and Thomas - I call him a cannibal - are judicial rogues. A cannibal is one who “eats” his own kind to get ahead.

[edit on 7/12/2007 by donwhite]

Other then McCain hanging himself nothing has fundamentally changed in the race for the 2008 republican nomination.
As for the question of does Rudy time as Mayor of New York City qualify him to be an candidate for the president ?
IMO one must look at his overall record as mayor rather then just the way he dealt with the events of 9-11. The crack down on crime and his support for gay rights (the fact that much of the Republicans supporter base is against Gay rights is another issue ) would seem to act in his favour. Education and his approach to homeless people could be what is used against him and could be seen as policy failures.

All I can say is that when deciding if Rudy is qualified to be president Americans should think about the policy's and there effects on New York city as well as listening carefully to an wide range of people who lived in New York city when he was Mayor.

Originally posted by donwhite

John McCain, a hero of the Vietnam War, is too old. He is re-fighting his last war. We lost the war in Vietnam because bullets cannot kill ideas. We are losing the Iraq war for the same reason. McCain is about to call it quits, too. IMO.

Really? Whose bullets and bombs are doing the damage to the Iraqi's? Surely the Insurgents aren't winning the hearts and minds by their horrible tactics? One suicide bomber just blew himself up with a bomb belt at a wedding party. Those are nice people you want to win there, Don.

Ultimately the Iraqi's just like the South Vietnamese, will have to want to win the war themselves, until they do that all we are doing is buying time.

Really? Whose bullets and bombs are doing the damage to the Iraqi's? Surely the Insurgents aren't winning the hearts and minds by their horrible tactics? One suicide bomber just blew himself up with a bomb belt at a wedding party. Those are nice people you want to win there, Don. Ultimately the Iraqi's just like the South Vietnamese, will have to want to win the war themselves, until they do that all we are doing is buying time.

Americans appear genetically blinded to their own perceived superiority. It’s an incurable condition we have suffered from since at least the days of Theodore Roosevelt. Cuba. Philippines. Panama. Haiti. Etc. Red State types tend to neither see this affliction nor if they do see it, actually take pride in their tunnel vision and seek comfort in the flag. Super-patriots. My country right or wrong. Etc.

The most obvious ideology in Iraq is “America Out.” There are others playing out too, but those are more local in origin. Iraq has been a country about 5,000 years and we have just celebrated out 400th anniversary. It does grate on them that we act superior, that we tell them how to live their lives, that we hand pick those who can run for office, that we then play like the Iraqi Constitution is their own and the officials were popularly elected.

We are trying to impose a group of willing lackeys on Iraq and they don’t like it. If they could get us out of there, they would “work it out” on their own. They have been there, done that. Many times over. Aside: It is now suggested the original Hebews came from Mesopotamia. Today's Iraq.

But that is not our intention there. It is our intention to impose a pliable and subservient regime in Baghdad that will preserve the sweetheart oil contracts our Plenipotentiary L Paul Bremmer imposed on them. We removed the slightly open Baathist Party and are trying to impose a less open government on the Iraqi. Although the ideology of Iraqi is not the same as that of the Vietnamese people, both had or have their own views and we remain blithely unaware of them, and not really much interested in knowing about them. We’re more It’s our way or no way types. Red States.

I don’t think anyone could argue that Vietnam is not better off under its own rulers than when it was under the French or its blundering follow-on types, the Americans, and the corrupt, anti-democratic lackey regimes we strove mightily to impose in Saigon. It’s too bad we saw 59,000 Americans KIA, and between 500,000 and 3 million Vietnamese people killed. Collateral damage in our white, Western POV. It’s too bad we was watched 3,600 GIs KIA in Iraq and counting and we have killed or caused to be killed between 75,000 and 200,000 Iraqi. Shucks, just more collateral damage.

Iraq will survive long after the United States Armed Forces are gone.

[edit on 7/13/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


It does grate on them that we act superior, that we tell them how to live their lives, that we hand pick those who can run for office, that we then play like the Iraqi Constitution is their own and the officials were popularly elected. ........

We are trying to impose a group of willing lackeys on Iraq and they don’t like it. If they could get us out of there, they wold “work it out” on their own.

So the over TEN MILLION of Iraqi's that voted mean nothing to you? They must all be "lackeys" too. If the government of Iraq was so much under our control don't you think we would be seeing the necessary reforms quicker? I betcha the Shia pine for the days of Saddam's rule.

How exactly would they "work it out" without the US and Coalition forces there? It's ok if we step back and let them murder eachother, somehow that is more morally acceptable to you, even though more will die?

Originally posted by pavil
So the over TEN MILLION of Iraqi's that voted mean nothing to you? They must all be "lackeys" too. If the government of Iraq was so much under our control don't you think we would be seeing the necessary reforms quicker? I betcha the Shia pine for the days of Saddam's rule.

Wrong on Saddam. Right on elections! Those poor Iraqi were uninformed about democracy American style (which B43 equates with elections), and dutifully voted for candidates on a carefully APPROVED list we conjured. The election was not open. The Iraqi people could not win, we could not lose. Or so we thought. Hey, we’re so “good” at elections in America Jimmy Carter will not monitor one! We were stymied by Florida in 2000 and I live here. The Feds and State have spent $30 million to fix that but still cannot get it right. A block of 30,000 votes went missing in the last election. Bush43's smarter brother, then governor, said, “What the hey?” Hmm?

How exactly would they "work it out" without the US and Coalition forces there? It's ok if we step back and let them murder each other, somehow that is more morally acceptable to you, even though more will die?

Relatively easily. First, in their own deliberate way. Second making their own deals and alliances. Third, doing it their way. As they have done for millennia. 1000s of years before we came on the world scene. Geez? How did they manage?

What is morally acceptable to me is not the issue. Or, how much worse can it get? Will the US staying longer make it better? And how do we claim to KNOW what will happen anyway? We predicted a blood bath in Vietnam, too, but that failed to materialize. To the wistful disappointment of too many Americans. Red states.

We have missed every prediction we’ve made in Iraq since the most famous one of May 1, 2003, onboard the USS Lincoln when our Maximum Leader joyfully proclaimed “Mission Accomplished!” Now its 4 years and 3,600 KIA later. And counting. And we are getting ready to come home in 2009. It is sad that B43 lied to us in '03, but it is even more sad to realize he believed his own lie. And he still does. That’s the really scary thing about Bush43. A man convinced he has God on his side is dangerous to human life.

The Vietnamese worked it out after we were forced to flee ingloriously from the Saigon embassy rooftop. I wonder if that portends our ultimate exit from the Green Zone? How many more GIs (and Iraqi) must go KIA before we take that last helicopter ride out of town?

We who think our technological superiority coupled with our aggressive tendencies makes us the intellectually and culturally superior race. Wow! That is hubris in dangerous proportions.

Q. What country threatens the world more in 2007? The US or Iran?

[edit on 7/13/2007 by donwhite]

Pavil you have to understand that Americans and the people who look to the US as the leaders of the free world no longer trust Bush leadership. Botching an ill advised war that you don't have the resources to win military isnt exactly going to earn and maintain the respect and trust of anybody expect for your most hardcore and perhaps brainwashed supporters.

I regard Iran as an greater threat to global security then the US because Bush will leave office in 08 the Iranian nuclear program and the countries nut job leaders are going to be around for a lot longer then Bush will be.
IMO those who regard the the US as the greatest threat to global security let there anti Bush sentiment get the best of logic.

However it is fair to say that the free world cant afford any more blunders on magnitude of Iraq.

[edit on 14-7-2007 by xpert11]

[edit on 14-7-2007 by xpert11]