The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn

Regardie was associated with Crowley and did act as his personal secretary. I'm would not go as far as to classify him as a student of Crowley. In my opinion Regardie has demonstrated a far deeper understanding of esoteric matters than Crowely ever did.

I am not aware of any connection between Bardon and Crowley. I am also unaware of any connection between Bardon and the OTO. Can you provide any details to support this claim?

I do not place any stock in the opinions of Jim Morrison etc on this particular subject...

I agree that Crowley's wit and humour were a breath of fresh air, and I particularily like his introduction to Book IV. However it is hard to make any subject read as boringly as AE Waite can! Levi is cryptic, not written in English, and usually translated by Waite. Agrippa was witten over 500 years ago, so yes it tends to be hard going too.

The full impact of Crowley has possibly done magic, just as much of a disservice as a service. In my opinion anyone wishin to understand the concept should probably study Regardie, and anyone wanting to know the whole truth, with no punches pulled should also study Bardon.

[Edited on 1-4-2004 by Flash]

Originally posted by Flash
Regardie was associated with Crowley and did act as his personal secretary. I'm would not go as far as to classify him as a student of Crowley. In my opinion Regardie has demonstrated a far deeper understanding of esoteric matters than Crowely ever did.

I would agree that Regardie is an excellent resource, and is much more straight-forward and to-the-point than Crowley, making him easier to understand than Crowley for the multitude.
However, I do not believe Regardie was had more undertanding of the Occult Sciences. He was certainly knowledgeable and a Qabalistic scholar, but he himself never claimed a Grade higher than 5�=6�.

I am not aware of any connection between Bardon and Crowley. I am also unaware of any connection between Bardon and the OTO. Can you provide any details to support this claim?

Sorry, I was thinking of Franz Hartmann, you are correct that Barton was not a member of O.T.O.

The full impact of Crowley has possibly done magic, just as much of a disservice as a service.

Your opinion here my very well be correct. However, it is also just as possible that, without Crowley, the Western Hermetic Tradition would now be extinct. Rgardless of my personal feelings about Aleister Crowley, I am forced to concede that he popularized the Science of the Magi in our modern era, and many of us on the Path, though not Thelemites, were first introduced to Hermeticism through his works.

In my opinion anyone wishin to understand the concept should probably study Regardie, and anyone wanting to know the whole truth, with no punches pulled should also study Bardon.

Here, I completely agree; nor do I recommend Crowley to beginners, except for possibly his autobiography and "Magick Without Tears".
But I personally would go further than Regardie, and strongly recommend Dion Fortune, Paul Foster Case, and J.D. Buck.

Fiat Lvx.

[Edited on 1-4-2004 by Flash]

I have reason to believe the Illuminati may be at odds with the Hermetic Order. Hermes seems to be more about white magic. The Illuminati on the other hand seems to deal mainly with black magik. A member started a thread here recently:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'll copy what I wrote, although the site may not be credible, its an interesting theory at least:

In the outer world, each Brotherhood thought of the other one as the dark Brotherhood, the Black Magicians. The battle between the polarities of the Brotherhoods started incredibly long time ago and reached its peak with World WarII. The two opposites, the sun (Illuminati) and the moon (Luminari) face each other and struggle for power, yet neither of them can win. They can only overcome polarity.

The 'Moon Masters', the Luminari, the Immortals who lived in 'Agartha' represented the spirit bound ,the Alpha pole. The Masters are the protectors of the spirit. They have whole physical-etheric bodies and can materialize at any time. They are the keepers of the magnetic field of the Earth and of its karma.

They represent the other polarity, the spiritual Alpha powers. They work together with the Masters of Light and they are .the Keepers of the Grail (the sacred and integral forces) of the inner cosmos.

Source: www.2012.com.au...

That should be a start at least. There is also a lot of symbolism with Thoth/Hermes, the moon God of Egypt, he seems very similar to the Moon Masters. Check out my thread here, i posted a lot of stuff so far:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Perhaps they are the two opposites. The philosopy of Hermes seems to be at odds with the concept of Illuminati.

I've just started reading into Ceremonial/Ritual Magick, as I'm interested in Paganism and Magick in general. Please not I know very little about it!
I have started keeping a dream diary and ritual diary, and looking at the LBRP (Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram).
It also involves Tarot, and I have just actually bought the Golden Dawn Tarot deck (which is not exactly right but is supposed to be the best you can get).
From what I have read it is mainly white magick and grey magick, and black magick is actively discouraged, besides when you practice any balck magick it comes back on yourself, so it's not worth it anyway in my opinion.
If anyone thinks there is something sinister about this, I would like to know though!

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by TgSoe
I have read a few of his books- Magik In Theory And In Practice and The Book Of The Law. A lot of it is hard to understand. Seems like an interesting man though. I suppose no every day ordinary person could even imagine what he was realy like.

I should think he was interesting. As for the comment about being an arse, well...that definately showed some deep thought and speculation. But off the topic though.

The question is does this group have any reletion to the Illuminati? Or, does the Illuminati have any magical beliefs that possibly help them achieve their ends?

It is my personal opinion, that all these groups (or at least most) are all inter-related and/or branches and off-shoots of one another. You know, masons, Illuminati, Skull and Bones, Trilateral Commision, Majesti Twelve (although I don't really know what they are, but just heard about them a couple times), The Golden Dawn and so and and so forth. Kind of a sort of network of different levels and also with front groups. Why I believe this is because, it would be in their best interest to scatter the focus from the public or outsiders from honing in on one group, to creating many different facets with different names and slightly different objectives or practices. This creates more confusion and deflects many from seeing the cohesion of what is going on. It' kind of creates a mirror maze where there are so many reflections that it's very hard to find the real path. And all directions look the same and are related, but you can't get to the source of it. Make sense? They all seem to contain occult rituals or practices or something close. Many are satanists and the fact that they are so secretive just alludes to the fact that they are deceitful. I do not have proof of what I have just mentioned, but have seen and read a few things which may support this. I'm interested in it and am trying to study up on all this in my free time.

Masonry, however I would say is more of a front group, because from what I know, most masons are NOT into the occult. But because of the many levels of masonry and the fact that the upper masons do things and know things that they keep from lower levels, this leads me to believe that Masonry, to the essence is related. But more telling and way more obvious is just look at all the known members of let's say Skull and Bones and Trilaterals and so on that are also known masons. So that's more reason to think that masonry is connected.

Again, masons though, most at least, aren't guilty of any of this. I just want to make sure no one take offense or misunderstands.

tech trouble back latter

[edit on 19-7-2004 by Inf0rm3r]

AgentSmith, your right its mainly white a grey, black is not recommended as it comes back on you, myself use to practice some white/light mag, however I don�t now and not going to go there

Sorry I accidently put this in the worng place. Agnore it.

[edit on 19-7-2004 by alias101]

For those interested, many of Crowley's writings are available here. I've read through many of them, and I find most interesting references to death by sexual means.

For example, in Liber CDLI, where it states

or the practice may be renewed and persisted in until death ends all. The most favourable death is that occurring during the orgasm, and is called Mors Justi.

We again see reference to this in Liber CDXV, were it says:

The supreme Rite would be to bring about a climax in the death of the victim. By this Rite one would attain the summit of Magical Art. Even better would be to slay a girl, preferably a willing victim. After violating her, she should be cut into 9 pieces.

This certainly doesn't seem like it's just a symbolic meaning, but it was written in the early 1900's, so I'm sure things have evolved since then.

By "death", Crowley refers to the death of the ego through the attainment of Samadhi (see Liber 4 Part 1, subtitled "Yoga: The Way of Attainment To Godhead Considered As A Development of the Human Brain" and also his "Eight Lectures On Yoga"). He does not here refer to the physical death of the body. Those familiar with the Golden Dawn system will understand this as an allusion to attaining the Grade of 8�=3�.

The system of sex magic developed by Crowley is analogous to the forms of Kundalini Yoga practiced by the Hindu and Buddhist mystics. The theory behind the practice is that consciousness is altered at the moment of organism in all animal species, including humans. However, humans have the ability to consciously direct the flux of kundalini energy ("libido"), which is manifested in sexual expression, and thereby may use the influx of energy to open the Sahasrara Chakra (the "Third Eye" or "Eye of Horus") which destroys individual perception in the senses, and opens universal consciousness (or "Krishna Consciousness", as the Hindus call it).

Fiat Lvx.

.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by Tamahu]

I just don't think Crowley was good for the Dawn, nor is he good for people considering to, or are, studying the occult. Using him as a psychology study (I'd prefer Jung, but Frued would work, too)

Is this the same person who accuses Crowley of sexual motivation, then would prefer the works of someone like Frued?

For the hitler connection to the occult check the Thule society. WARNING it is very nazi!

Love or Hate him, Crowley was essential to modern revivals of the arcane, the old religions, and such. Much of the interest in eastern religions was acredited to him, as well as our homegrown western magic and spiritualism.

Incidentally, much of the Nazi occultism was a combination of ancient Aryan Mysticism, Teutonic myth, and other, more darker, ideals.

Well, I am not going to sit here and read the entire thread because reading the first page I can tell that some people have done half assed research. First of all, look at your sources, anything coming off the web and claiming to be an authority on the Golden Dawn is suspect at best.
There are many groups who claim that they got their authority from the late Dr. F. I. Regardie (1907 - 1985), but most of them are just full of #.

Also, the stella matutina doesn't predate the Golden Dawn, it was one of the schismatic groups...

Unfortunately I am new here and the damn board wont let me go back and look at the posts now that I am typing but that long history seemed pretty accurate, but again, evealuate all your sources...

Has anyone read Liber Cheth? Here is a quote from it. Stuff like this makes me skeptical of joining any of AC's followers. Maybe its all allegory or something. I can't see much value in some of these things.

8. Thou hast wealth; give it unto them that have need thereof, yet no desire toward it. Thou hast health; slay thyself in the fervour of thine abandonment unto Our Lady. Let thy flesh hang loose upon thy bones, and thine eyes glare with thy quenchless lust unto the Infinite, with thy passion for the Unknown, for Her that is beyond Knowledge the accursed one.

10. Thou hast love; tear thy mother from thine heart, and spit in the face of thy father. Let thy foot trample the belly of thy wife, and let the babe at her breast be the prey of dogs and vultures.

11. For if thou dost not this with thy will, then shall We do this despite thy will. So that thou attain to the Sacrament of the Graal in the Chapel of Abominations.

www.hermetic.com...


[edit on 16-9-2004 by TgSoe]

maybe I just have a dirty mind, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was just an elaborate way to get lucky. sexual ceremonies

thats what its all about. I know guys that would claim to be a reptilian shape shifting alien to get lucky.......

93

In a nutshell, Liber Cheth is about crossing the Abyss. The lines you quoted are about preparing youself for the stripping of the Ego, thus leaving the perfect self.

93 93/93

Let us recall that Dr. W. Wynn Westcott and S.L. MacGregor Mathers were also highly important figures in Golden Dawn history.

The Great Work requires pursuit, patience, and value.

Inquiries into understanding AIN, AIN SVP, and AIN SVP AVR are at least a lifelong process of study. There is much disinformation that is spread by ignorant conjecture: this ultimately benefits the candidate's Ascendant pursuit of the different stages (FORTUNA MAJOR).

Zacar od zamran. Odo cicle qaa.
MK PG

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by Rosslyntemplar
Crowley was never a Mason .

S&F

I beg to differ. 33� Scottish Rite Freemason - Aleister Crowley. There are degrees higher than 33. In fact Aleister Crowley stated that he was a 33rd Degree Mason for ten years before he discovered the higher degrees.

Another example I quote: "is cited by David Berkowitz, a serial killer during the mid-1970s. Berkowitz was a member of a cult by the name "Son of Sam," a cult founded by a secret society called the Ordo Templi Orientis* better known as the OTO. The OTO was founded in 1902 by two 33rd degree Freemasons.

At its head in 1912 was 33rd degree Freemason Alistair Crowley, the sweetheart of modern rock stars. This is the same Masonic Lodge that slaughtered Christians during the 1917 communist revolution in Russia and it's the same Masonic Lodge that slaughtered the missionaries in Angola in the early 1970s. David Berkowitz claims that all his murders were contracts handed down by the Son of Sam cult leaders. One victim he mentions was a young and beautiful brunette who he stabbed to death inside a church while she was praying. Her crime, according to Berkowitz, was that several months earlier she had been invited to one of their cult meetings where she boldly witnessed Jesus Christ."

Actually, Aleister Crowley was NOT a regular mason:

www.masonicinfo.com...
Aleister Crowley - "The Great Beast" - Masonry's detractors make much of the supposed Masonic membership of this individual whose claims to immoral behavior are the antithesis of all that Freemasonry holds dear. Their charges are buttressed by a popular photograph of Crowley in regalia purporting to be a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason. What's the truth?

In these days of copyright protection, it's hard to understand how multiple groups could all claim the same name but such is the history surrounding Freemasonry as other organizations took its name and bastardized its concepts. Sometimes, regrettably, this occurred when someone who had previously been regularly made a Mason would decide - for whatever reason - that they could improve on things. Crowley joined a French Grand Lodge which was unrecognized by 'mainstream' Freemasonry and, in fact, was apparently quite miffed when he failed to be acknowledged as a Mason by those in London, his home at the time. Subsequently, he was 'given' a 33rd Scottish Rite degree while traveling in Mexico. Again, the organization which gave him that degree was a spurious one, totally unrecognized by other Scottish Rite Bodies throughout the world.

In fact, as an interesting side note to history, Crowley's 33rd Degree had come from the same expelled Mason that began a thriving industry of duping people through the purchase of degrees by mail and which ultimately resulted in the successful prosecution of the very first legal action for mail fraud in the United States. A further side note is that Crowley's organization - the OTO - was founded by a person who had joined Freemasonry but was a member for less than a couple of years before being dropped from the rolls. You can read a more complete history of the OTO and its pretended connections with Freemasonry here.

We should add parenthetically that because of the confusion which always surrounds discussions of 'regularity' and French Freemasonry, Crowley's Grand Lodge may have had some type of recognition with some US Grand Lodges as a result of the political situation in France during World War I. At that time, attempts to find Masonic 'homes' for US servicemen caused recognition (sometimes for purposes of visitation only) without proper investigation. Once acknowledged (or recognized), such relationships continued seemingly through inertia until a more formal body on grand lodge inter-relationships became more prominent. Arising from this confusion, one Mason posting on an internet newsgroup has asserted that Crowley should be recognized in his jurisdiction of Oregon as being legitimately a Mason. We asked that he obtain an official statement from his Grand Lodge to that effect but needless to say, it has not been forthcoming. Like much of Crowley's life, claims of lodge attendance etc. are murky and unverified. They are no less complex than the convoluted and often contradictory assumptions and claims surrounding Masonic recognition, de-recognition, and French Freemasonry. We'll attempt to research this assertion further and provide updates as credible information becomes available. Regrettably, not every Grand Lodge will act to take action despite the egregious behavior of demitted or otherwise non-active members as is proven by the inaction relating to the handful of former Masons who now berate Freemasonry.