why cant christians accept the origins of christianity

Well, then throw out the bible - and also the discussion. Whether or not it offers any proof to anyone's satisfaction - and even for those of us who don't subscribe to religious christianity - if you have a discussion about Christ you really have to allow the bible as not maybe evidence, but perhaps 'study material?'

And the bible says there are 'two anointed.' Christ means anointed. So there are 'two christs.' One has come but there is another one to come, also.

Zechariah 4:14

Queenannie said:

But do you really think they are lying to mislead others on PURPOSE? That’s something almost impossible to imagine someone would devote time and energy to.

I certainly do believe that higher ranking religious "authorities" are intentionally lying. Yes,I do.

Why is it impossible "to imagine someone would devote time and energy to" mislead the congregations? Why would that be hard to imagine? In a world where money and power is the ruling order of the day,it's not hard for me to imagine at all. Not at all.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

What if God came to you wearing a pentacle and told you that to believe in th ability to sin and just ask forgiveness has been wrong you would mistake him for not what he would be.

Not really following you, but the Pentacle is a symbol of Satan...........I'm sure God is aware of that.

That is my point, you ar so caught up in your religious dogma and half truths you dont even know whats what.

The pentacle is not the symble of Satan, it is the symbol of mans spirit working with nature, within the sacred circle. The top point is spirit over the bottom four points and the represent the four elementals of nature. Earth, Air, Fire and water, within a circle, Gods sacred circle of lif energy. Early Christains wore it to represent the five stations of christ.

It was mainly Hollywood that twisted the meaning of the pentacle. I used the example of God wearing the pentacle to test if you really could recognise God.

You failed...and would fail to recognise him in real life. I hope you also realize your messiah Jesus will not be toting a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on his SUV.

He would be more likely to be what you would deem a "new age hippy"

[edit on 16-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I certainly do believe that higher ranking religious "authorities" are intentionally lying. Yes,I do.

Wow. But WHY? To me that seems like a waste of time or a darn foolish thing to do...that's just me, though!

Why is it impossible "to imagine someone would devote time and energy to" mislead the congregations? Why would that be hard to imagine? In a world where money and power is the ruling order of the day,it's not hard for me to imagine at all. Not at all.

Well, I guess because that would mean that these leaders that SO MANY people are looking toward as truly a way to get to know God better really don't even believe in God!

Because if they did, they'd surely know better than to lie about Him and especially for prophet/profit!

But, really, do you think that goes on? I'm having shock, here. WOW

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Not really following you, but the Pentacle is a symbol of Satan...........I'm sure God is aware of that.

Who the HELL is SATAN? Good grief! And God doesn't care about the things we care about, trust me. We let symbols rule our thoughts and that is the essence of IDOLATRY. We can rule our world and conquer the ills around us by taking charge and ruling over our symbols!

You failed...and would fail to recognise him in real life. I hope you also realize your messiah Jesus will not be toting a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on his SUV.

SUV? I picture more of a vintage VW Bus with flowers and peace signs and YES yin yangs all over it! And swirly love designs. On the back it would say in 5 inch letters
MAKE LOVE NOT WAR - THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT!

And there might also be a bumper sticker that said 'Jesus please save me from your followers!' and another 'My other car is a fiery chariot!'

Listening to Led Zeppelin and ICP! Maybe even some Cheech-n-Chong dingo balls along the top of the windshield. And a loudspeaker for when He's in the mood to freak people out! I love it!

He would be more likely to be what you would deem a "new age hippy"

He'd be someone that you would criticize and constantly denounce as misled, Sun Matrix. And he'd never even say a word to put you down for it. Because He would know that you cannot help it at the present time. He loves you even if you wouldn't speak to Him on the street unless it was to ask if his god was Ahura Mahzda!

Originally posted by queenannie38
And the bible says there are 'two anointed.' Christ means anointed. So there are 'two christs.' One has come but there is another one to come, also.

Zechariah 4:14

Then, by the same reasoning, there are more than two Christs, since several of God's people throughout the bible have been referred to as "anointed."

Leviticus 7:36

These the LORD had commanded to be given them from the sons of Israel in the day that He anointed them. It is their due forever throughout their generations.'"

1 Samuel 10:1

Then Samuel took the flask of oil, poured it on his head (Saul), kissed him and said, "Has not )the LORD anointed you a ruler over )His inheritance?

1 Samuel 16:13

Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him (David) in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

Isaiah 45:1

Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

There are innumerable other examples where "anointed: is used to designate those who are selected or blessed by God. No where, in any bible commentary, index, concordance or encyclopedia, can I find reference to the word "anointed" being synoymous with "Christ".

Originally posted by queenannie38

Wow. But WHY? To me that seems like a waste of time or a darn foolish thing to do...that's just me, though!

Well, I guess because that would mean that these leaders that SO MANY people are looking toward as truly a way to get to know God better really don't even believe in God!

Because if they did, they'd surely know better than to lie about Him and especially for prophet/profit!

But, really, do you think that goes on? I'm having shock, here. WOW

Not quite understanding what is so shocking here,Annie.

Of course they believe in a God...However, they do not present what they know in an illuminating light. They conceal that which they know and discourage you from finding out about God for yourself.

Let me ask you,Annie. Do you really think that God is sitting and licking his chops to throw about 80% of the population into "hell?" That certainly is not the God that I know,yet,that is what Christianity tells us we have waiting for us. Why? It's a way to maintain control and gain power over the flock.

You don't think that is intentionally lying to the masses?

Why should Christians or any other religion be honest about their origins when they can't even be honest about the loving,compassionate,forgiving God that we have?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Of course they believe in a God...However, they do not present what they know in an illuminating light. They conceal that which they know and discourage you from finding out about God for yourself.

Well, see THAT part of it I have always known....but it seemed to me that these days it had come to the point where knowledge, concealed centuries ago by the powers-that-be for their political and socioeconomic purposes, had not only been 'misplaced' but also forgotten as 'missing.'

Let me ask you,Annie. Do you really think that God is sitting and licking his chops to throw about 80% of the population into "hell?"

Oh I KNOW He isn't - but I guess I figured those that preach hell so vehemently must have some sort of personal faith in such a thing.

You don't think that is intentionally lying to the masses?

Indeed....but then we are back to my conviction that anyone that would intentionally misprepresent, on purpose, and lie to the masses about God then certainly can't really really truly in their heart of hearts take the idea of God seriously. Because I am not scared of God - and I know more and more how the death cycle works - it doesn't scare me to die or to live anymore - but certainly it would scare the crap out of me to think I had lied about God and He knew. (of course how could He NOT?)

Why should Christians or any other religion be honest about their origins when they can't even be honest about the loving,compassionate,forgiving God that we have?

You know, I truly don't think it is as much deliberate deception (although it certainly had its roots in political control and keeping the people in the dark without bibles and thinking that St George crossed the river with baby jesus and all that kind of nonsense people believed because the church told them)...but these days I think that maybe the truth was so mistreated for so long that the people that once had that kind of access to it totally can't recognize it at all!

And I am sure you are more accurate than me - I am a pollyanna at heart - and also there is the governments and other powers to consider, too....

But Gosh they are surely fools, IMO.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Well, then throw out the bible - and also the discussion. Whether or not it offers any proof to anyone's satisfaction - and even for those of us who don't subscribe to religious christianity - if you have a discussion about Christ you really have to allow the bible as not maybe evidence, but perhaps 'study material?'

I mean you can't use arguments like Christ is Lord because the Bible says so. It's not a valid argument. Of course you can use the bible as reference when using it in conjunction with another piece of evidence to support it.

Originally posted by queenannie38

You failed...and would fail to recognise him in real life. I hope you also realize your messiah Jesus will not be toting a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on his SUV.

SUV? I picture more of a vintage VW Bus with flowers and peace signs and YES yin yangs all over it! And swirly love designs. On the back it would say in 5 inch letters
MAKE LOVE NOT WAR - THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT!

And there might also be a bumper sticker that said 'Jesus please save me from your followers!' and another 'My other car is a fiery chariot!'

Listening to Led Zeppelin and ICP!

Maybe even some Cheech-n-Chong dingo balls along the top of the windshield. And a loudspeaker for when He's in the mood to freak people out! I love it!

That was pretty damn funny! Hey annie thats what I met, he wouldnt be driving an SUV I had the same picture in my mind, driving a VW micro bus heheheh that would be Gods style, scare the crap out of all them extreme right wingers, theyd be like, that aint no God, thats one of dem dirty ole hippies, I thought them all died out...

Annie you need to write a book, I mean it ou have a grasp on spirit like no one I have ever seen or met, people cant even begin to grasp where you are unless they read volumes of your posts. Its easy for them to mistake you for being someone you are not. I wish I had a grasp on the bible like you do. Or even a fraction of all your spiritual and religous knowledge.





[edit on 16-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]

I've always pictured Jesus similar to this



Except resurecting three days after choking on his own vomit.

in answer to Sun:
transfiguration is not the coming of his kingdom. not to mention the other verses in the gospels which i didnt mention concerning his "supposed" return:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

it isnt hard to pull out many quotes that PROVE that the people who believed in christ at that time thought they were in the "last days".

the sad part is i have been through so many of these "debates" that it gets old, and your type are very close-minded about all of this. here is another quote for you, and lets see if you can live up to it:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you

so move a mountain dude..........

or just ask Jesus to move it for you and we can settle all of this. shouldnt be too hard since:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

oh yeah i know, dont tempt and all that eh.

ever read Catch-22?

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

IamLegend, this actually applies to spiritual knowledge. If one seeks,one will find. If one asks,one will gain. If one knocks,the door to knowledge will be opened. It has nothing to do with gaining earthly desires. Even though the church has taught otherwise.

Hosea 4:6

my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.

Because of the lack of knowledge people are destroyed. Without true spiritual knowledge a person is like a sage bush blowing in the wind. If one doesn't comprehend that Jesus taught a mystery,though I don't think anyone is really aware of what that mystery is, he/she does not know where to look for tyhe answers. Most Christians say that the mystery was revealed through the revelation of Christ being messiah. Uh,uh...

Christ made reference to a mystery. Why would Christ have made reference to a mystery if he was the answer to it? Christ taught in parables for a reason. A parable is designed such that only the elect few can understand..Who were these few that completely understood the parables of Christ? The twelve he elected to be disciples. Man of today does not,and in all probablility, cannot truly understand the significance of the parables of Christ. Funny,since there are 100s of sites on the net that purport to have an understanding of them!! :shk:





[edit on 16-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

that all sounds very gnostic to me ( i wonder why). although i do believe that a lot of what you said is definitely not among the modern view of what christianity is, but it is in fact at the root of it. the problem with some (sun matrix) is that they take the bible and ONLY the bible and ignore the rest of the world.

not to mention it still reeks of "the select few" getting over on "the masses". a common theme among religion to make the followers feel that they are better than others.

and again, what about the people seeing the end days before they died, and yet 2000+ years have passed?:w:

Indeed! A veritable Godsend! AMEN!

(Except it was downers and wine - and he didn't asphyxiate like so many of peers sadly did....)


Purple Haze
Jesus Saves

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Christ taught in parables for a reason. A parable is designed such that only the elect few can understand..Who were these few that completely understood the parables of Christ? The twelve he elected to be disciples.

Well....sometimes they did, after He explained to them...even later you never heard much in their epistles (what we have) utilizing parables - the Gospel of Thomas is the only one - now he DID seem to understand ( I suspect there is a profound reason, why, too).

Man of today does not,and in all probablility, cannot truly understand the significance of the parables of Christ.

Only the spirit can show us these things - there are those who truly understand them - but of course the ones who understand don't have profi-see sites complete with paypal shopping carts available to make that knowledge accessible to all!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
scare the crap out of all them extreme right wingers, theyd be like, that aint no God, thats one of dem dirty ole hippies, I thought them all died out...

The rainbow people!

Annie you need to write a book

I did! - but everyone thinks it was about christianity! Just kidding! Maybe just the book of Ecclesiastes....

I can't remember. :shk:

Originally posted by queenannie38

Annie you need to write a book

I did! - but everyone thinks it was about christianity! Just kidding!

Maybe just the book of Ecclesiastes....

I can't remember. :shk:

OMG that is the aome of funniest sh!t I ever read! hahahah annie the better I get to know you the funnier I think you are! hahahah rotflol You know if I read it fast I would too.

annie you really do have this stuff pretty freaking unlocked I am serious about the book, you may just blow the world away with it. If anyone truley undertands it. hahahah

Love ya babe

The rainbow people!

I never thought of them that way...nice.

[edit on 17-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]

so move a mountain dude..........
or just ask Jesus to move it for you and we can settle all of this. shouldnt be too hard since:

Or in the words of Herod(Jesus Christ Superstar)
So you are the Christ, The Great Jesus Christ....
Prove to me that You're no fool
Walk across my swimming pool.


Knowledge appears to make no contribution to the credentials of an authority;
opinions firmly held, expressed loudly, and buttressed by ignorance are quite adequate.
RWF

The initial observation to be made is this: the popular forms of christianity we now have do not require indeed do not even permit Jesus to indorse them. Creedialism is a religion that supersedes Jesus, replaces him, or perhaps displaces him with a mythology that depends on nothing he said or did with the possible exception of his death.

The basic vision of reality within which one thinks and experiences
is crucial for how ethical issues arise and are dealt with.
Robert W Funk
The Jesus Seminar

The Law is the Living Word of the Living God. God did not write the Law in Books but in your HEART".
- Gospel of the Essenes
- Attributed to Jesus Christ

just a FWIW
I believe from my readings and study that there were at least 2 "Christ's/Messiahs" at the time
R. Jeshua walked the earth. A priest Messiah and a Royal/King Messiah. In the beginning
they were John and Jeshua respectivly. After the death of John his messiahship passed to Thomas
the twin brother of Jeshua and later to James.

Originally posted by queenannie38

And the bible says there are 'two anointed.' Christ means anointed. So there are 'two christs.' One has come but there is another one to come, also.

Zechariah 4:14

Are the two witnesses standing on each side of Yeshua Messiah.