why cant christians accept the origins of christianity

Originally posted by I am Legend

not to mention it still reeks of "the select few" getting over on "the masses". a common theme among religion to make the followers feel that they are better than others.

I am Legend, the thing is, those who profess to be the select few,are not the select few. The few who truly know,hold nothing over the masses. The ones who truly know,wait for humanity to wake up.

[edit on 17-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The ones who truly know,wait for humanity to wake up.

I dunno...I'm inclined to think it is rather like a little kid at 4 am on Christmas morning!

But maybe we don't realize there are some clanging the alarm clock bell like crazy because they are not ringing their OWN bells - they are ringing the bells of their brothers...

Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping?
Brother John? Brother John?
Morning bells are ringing!
Morning bells are ringing!

DING! DONG! DING!
DING! DONG! DING!



hee hee couldn't resist that smiley!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

It was mainly Hollywood that twisted the meaning of the pentacle. I used the example of God wearing the pentacle to test if you really could recognise God.

You're joking right. Please tell me you know better. I suggest you do a little study on the origin of the pentacle. It will not do me any good for me to tell you as you seem to reject truth.

You need to learn for yourself.

Originally posted by I am Legend
in answer to Sun:
transfiguration is not the coming of his kingdom. not to mention the other verses in the gospels which i didnt mention concerning his "supposed" return:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

it isnt hard to pull out many quotes that PROVE that the people who believed in christ at that time thought they were in the "last days".

If you did a comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 you would find out that that Matthew 24 is talking exclusively about the Last Days. Luke 21 begins talking about the last days and then says "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS" in Luke 21:12 and it is a prophecy about the destruction of the Jewish temple and the destruction of Jerusalem.(ANOTHER FULFILLED PROPHECY)

That is why people were confused. They saw the prophesied events of Luke 21 coming to pass. The events of Matthew 24 have not occured yet. Luke 21 catches back up to modern times in the second half of Luke 21: 24

In your first post where you were going to wear me out with unfulfilled propehcy. Those statements were directed to the apostles. The verses above are directed to those that see the fig tree begin to bloom. Israel is the fig tree. Read right before all the verses you posted.

The generation that sees Israel restored as a nation and prosper is the generation that will see the end of the age.

the sad part is i have been through so many of these "debates" that it gets old, and your type are very close-minded about all of this. here is another quote for you, and lets see if you can live up to it:

Bub, I've got news for you...............You can't become a Christian unless you are open minded. I wonder which one of us has really closed their mind. I let the facts decide.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you

so move a mountain dude..........

Your faith would be required..............and you have none.

5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

or just ask Jesus to move it for you and we can settle all of this. shouldnt be too hard since:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I say lets put it too the test. I say if you open your mind and call out to God with all your heart that you can be born again. Is your mind open enough to put it to the test?

Originally posted by I am Legend
but it is in fact at the root of it. the problem with some (sun matrix) is that they take the bible and ONLY the bible and ignore the rest of the world.

Exactly the opposite. I take what's happening in the world and clearly see it fortold in the Bible. Time to open your mind and your eyes.

not to mention it still reeks of "the select few" getting over on "the masses". a common theme among religion to make the followers feel that they are better than others.

Exactly the opposite. We don't think we're better, Just forgiven. If you are guility of one part of the law you have broken all the law( According to God)

and again, what about the people seeing the end days before they died, and yet 2000+ years have passed?:w:

I explained that. The first verses you gave were directed at the apostles and they saw the kingdom in power.

The second verses you gave were directed at the last days. Those that saw the Isael reborn would see the end of the age. That happened May 15th 1948.

No offense but it's just a lack of knowledge on your part.........Nothing to be ashamed of.

[edit on 17-11-2006 by Sun Matrix]

no offence bro, but your answers just flat out do not get it done. i have realized the futility of discussing this with you.

so Jesus tells some people they will be alive when the last days happen and the kingdom of heaven comes down to earth on a cloud, 2000 years pass, they all die, no last days, no kingdom of heaven coming down on a cloud: and you say jesus meant in 1948.............................................so they really wouldnt be alive when it happened...........he just said they were gonna be for fun.....................and yet 1948 came and went and no last days..................and many who saw Israel become a nation are now dead and it wont be much longer till anyone who was alive in 1948 is dead....................and STILL no kingdom of heaven has come to earth for THAT generation...........

i guess if that works for you then run with that.

ill stick with what it says, and just see it for what it is. a prophecy that failed miserably. :w: cheers!

Originally posted by Thousand


You believe wrong. If you're going to go after people who build arguments without being familiar with the matter at hand, then perhaps you should take your own advice and find out about the real driving forces behind atheism, and why people subscribe to it. It has nothing to do with fear, nothing at all, and you'll find that the lack of having a "get out of jail free card" (ie, christ) keeps the vast majority of athiests on the straight and narrow. They don't lie, steal, and kill simply because it hurts others, not because they're afraid of some eternal punishment fantasy.
[edit on 14/11/2006 by Thousand]

Well, I have mistakenly represented an aspect of Christianity, there is no fear of eternal punishment within Christ.

They dont steal because it hurts others? where do you think some of these concepts of ethics come from?

"do unto others, as you would have done unto you" sound familiar?

We dont get a get out of jail free card, there was sacrifice involved in our salvation. That sacrifice was the son of God.

Christ has offered, for all who accept it, eternal salvation. He has offered his very life's blood to us. God sacrificed his only son to redeem his people.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
They dont steal because it hurts others? where do you think some of these concepts of ethics come from?

"do unto others, as you would have done unto you" sound familiar?

Where do you think those concepts came from originally? I assure you, even in ancient Jericho, millenia before the bible was written, before the torah, before written language itself, there were people who strove to make their lives better by banding together and treating each other with respect as a way to ease their burdens and enrich their lives. We don't make friends and relationships because we read it in a book. We do it because it is beneficial to us, we do it because it feels good. Biologically, we are extremely social creatures, and helping each other out for the greater good of the whole is a natural expression of that.

We dont get a get out of jail free card, there was sacrifice involved in our salvation. That sacrifice was the son of God.

No, you do get a get out of jail free card. All you have to do is say "Sorry Jesus, I messed up", and even a hardened murderer gets to ascend. The sacrifice Jesus made has nothing to do with you, yet you get to use it as though you were personally there on the cross with him.

"Morality" in Atheism is not about hiding from what you've done because you're scared of a man in the sky. It's about being able to stand up for your own actions, accept responsibility for them, and dealing with that yourself. Once you realize that the only one out there who can save you is you, things begin to come together with crystal clarity.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Of course they believe in a God...However, they do not present what they know in an illuminating light. They conceal that which they know and discourage you from finding out about God for yourself.

Not really sure what you are saying here; The only way you can really get to know God is on your own. The bible is the instruction manual on "how" to know Him, what He has revealed about Himself to man through the Jewish patriarchs, prophets and finally and most importantly, through His Son, Jesus Christ. The church ( and here I am not teferring to individual denominations or buildings but the corporate body of believers) are to receive God's Word and the Gospel of Christ as revealed to them by the bible and the Holy Spirit and then pass that word on to those who donlt know. The only way that anybody can get to know God and know what God wants to give them is by seeking God's face in humble prayer and asking Him to make His presence and existance real to them.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.~ Hebrews 11:6

No one is concealing what they know except those who either don't truly know God at all or those who have traded their God-given mandate to spread the good news of the Gospel for temporary fame and fortune and those ones become very apparent, once you actually have come to know God and He has made all of those "difficult" passages and ideas in the bible clear.

Let me ask you,Annie. Do you really think that God is sitting and licking his chops to throw about 80% of the population into "hell?" That certainly is not the God that I know,yet,that is what Christianity tells us we have waiting for us. Why? It's a way to maintain control and gain power over the flock.

I can't and won't speak for annie but I can speak for myself and every other Christian that I know; No one who truly knows God and haas a personal relationship with Him, believes that He wants to throw anybody into hell. That is maybe the biggest missunderstanding of Christianity out there. It's actually just the opposite: God does not want one single person to go to hell. The problem is that He is not the one who makes that decision; God has given each of us the awareness and ability to make our own choices, it's called free will. God will not "force" Himself on anyone, each person must decide on his/her own whether to believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to redemption and forgiveness of sin, or not. Those who choose life, recieve it, eternally; those who choose otherwise do not. But make no mistake, whether you end up spending eternity in heaven or the other place, it's not God's decision, it is yours.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.2Peter 3:9

Why should Christians or any other religion be honest about their origins when they can't even be honest about the loving,compassionate,forgiving God that we have?

Again, I'm not sure what you are saying. Who is not being honest? God is loving, compassionate and forgiving, to a degree that we mere mortals can not truly get our minds around. God is God and we are not; I think in many ways people confuse the concept of Love and compassion and Righteousness, when it comes to God: God is supposed to be loving and compassionate, forgiving everyone for everything whether we ask Him to or not; every one wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die.
The problem with that is that God then becomes nothing more than a genie in a bottle giving us whatever we want with no accountability for who we are or what we have done. God can not and will not change His character; He is Holy and Righteous and can not abide sin; Hello! anybody remember the garden of Eden? Original sin? Man's disobedience? So the only way that you or I or anyone else can get past that obstacle, that barrier between God and us (sin) is through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. John 3:16 sound familiar? The scope of that sacrifice is astounding when you really think about it. This wasn't an obligation on God's part, He didn't have to do anything; He could have just wiped out His creation and started over again, but He 'didn't and if that isn't Love, Compassion and Forgiveness, then please, tell me what is.

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.~ Romans 5:6-8

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You're joking right. Please tell me you know better. I suggest you do a little study on the origin of the pentacle.

Why don't you do the same? From an objective, non-biased perspective similar to that which is required when one must study an assigned topic in college - and then present the findings.

It will not do me any good for me to tell you as you seem to reject truth.

Sun - those who do not hold with your exact belief system (read: subset of opinions formed from personal needs and experiences) are not 'rejecting truth.'

Your opinions are not truth, just as none of our opinions are truth. Opinions are 'incomplete understandings.' Only when the viewpoint becomes one of 'standing over' and seeing 'the complete whole' can it be considered as approaching what is objectively described as 'truth.'

So - just because what you believe the pentacle represents in relation to your own spiritual convictions and understandings is of a certain nature - that in no way nullifies or alters the history of the symbol or its various applications and representations in other cultures and eras. Your ideas are only part of the 'truth' and unless you incorporate the rest, you are only demonstrating narrow mindedness and a conviction for personal superiority and knowledge which cannot be had unless you step outside of yourself and observe, consider, and acknowledge the rest of the world with an equal validity and respect as you apply to self.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Exactly the opposite. We don't think we're better, Just forgiven.

ALL are forgiven, Sun - not just those who somehow think there is something they have to do to 'accept forgiveness.'

Forgiveness is nothing to do with the desires or attitude of the one forgiven - all the power of forgiveness lies within the one who is forgiving. God doesn't need anyone's permission or acquiesence in order to grant pardon and a totally clean slate.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
~1 John 2:1-2

The WHOLE WORLD. That means everyone. No exceptions.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
~Hebrews 10:10

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
~Hebrews 10:17-18

Once. For ALL. Again, that means everyone. No exceptions.

Once a sacrifice was accepted (I am referring to the traditional temple rites done each year on the day of atonement) and was witnessed as such by the turning of the scarlet thread to white, then it was understood by God's authority that ALL sins of ALL the people (this means especially those which were not acknowledged or realized - transgressions committed in 'ignorance' or 'without knowledge or understanding') of the whole entire previous year were erased - totally forgotten forever - no exceptions. NOTHING was required from the people for which the atonement was made.

SAME thing applies to the ONCE and FOR ALL atonement - it was accepted 2000 years ago - and there is nothing any of us need do to 'activate' it in regards to ourselves, individually.

It is a done deal. One more time: NO exceptions.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Exactly the opposite. We don't think we're better, Just forgiven.

ALL are forgiven, Sun - not just those who somehow think there is something they have to do to 'accept forgiveness.'

Forgiveness is nothing to do with the desires or attitude of the one forgiven - all the power of forgiveness lies within the one who is forgiving. God doesn't need anyone's permission or acquiesence in order to grant pardon and a totally clean slate.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
~1 John 2:1-2

The WHOLE WORLD. That means everyone. No exceptions.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
~Hebrews 10:10

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
~Hebrews 10:17-18

Once. For ALL. Again, that means everyone. No exceptions.

We have been over this ground so many times, annie, and you still don't see that you can not pick and choose only the verses you like and ignore the ones that disprove your claims...and the verses you choose you take out of context with the rest of the text. For example, your first scripture reference is taken out of context with the rest of the letter; you totally ignore the first chapter where John says this:

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,[Then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to R28 cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.~1John 1:5-10

It is clear from the above scripture that in order to obtain forgiveness from sin and have fellowship with God, we nust first confess our sins to Him and if we say that we don't need to do that we make Christ a liar and His word is not in us. Later in chapter 2, John says this:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.~1John 2:16-17

And who is it who lives forever?:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life/b]; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life , but the wrath of God abides on him."

Jesus went even further when He said this:

"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.~John 3:12-16

Jesus said it Himself, to receive eternal life you must first believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. It is not a blanket forgiveness for everyone, but for everyone who Believes.

Once a sacrifice was accepted (I am referring to the traditional temple rites done each year on the day of atonement) and was witnessed as such by the turning of the scarlet thread to white, then it was understood by God's authority that ALL sins of ALL the people (this means especially those which were not acknowledged or realized - transgressions committed in 'ignorance' or 'without knowledge or understanding') of the whole entire previous year were erased - totally forgotten forever - no exceptions. NOTHING was required from the people for which the atonement was made.

SAME thing applies to the ONCE and FOR ALL atonement - it was accepted 2000 years ago - and there is nothing any of us need do to 'activate' it in regards to ourselves, individually.

It is a done deal. One more time: NO exceptions.

Not so. The sacrifice did not remove the sins of the people, only set aside for the year; it was an "imperfect sacrifice"; that is the whole reason for God sacrificing His only begotten Son as the perfect, complete sacrifice. The phrase "forgiven once and for all" is not found at all in the old testament, except in instances where prophecy speaks of the coming messiah. Look at the 10th chapter of Hebrews, which you quoted above:

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.~ Hebrews 10:11-13

If the yearly sacrifice of the priests was totally effective in removing the sins of the people, Christ's sacrifice would have been unnecessary. Rather, the forgiveness of sin and inheritance of eternal life comes through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, not by the work itself:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.~Romans 3:25-26

[edit on 11/18/2006 by Stormrider]

Nicely done Stormrider. Nothing needs to added except.............

You have voted Stormrider for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thanks for the wats, Sun. It is much appreciated but knowing the truth is it's own reward.

It just nice to do a complete job of taking Annie to task about taking scripture out of context.

It's hard for me to see what's in it for Annie. Surely she has to know what she's doing. She's fooling herself.

Originally posted by Or_Die_Trying
Its blatantly obvious that nearly all modern day creation based religions have strikingly similar (almost to the point of names being the only real difference) stories regarding creation, adam and eve, a flood, a "noah" character, a "jesus" character etc.... many of which pre-date christianity and even those stories can be traced even further back to egyptian, assyrian, babylonian etc "mythologies". When the evidence is so obvious why does every bible thumper seem to think their idealogy is the one truth when its obviously based on more ancient knowledge and stories? this goes for muslims too and jews, and so forth. anyone who does any research regarding ancient beliefs and creation stories willfind modern religion copying liberally from these.

Your accusation is flawed from the start.

"all MODERN day creation based religions......" Please define "modern" in light of the Bible itself being written thousands of years ago.

There are no other Jesus "characters" in any story claiming to be God Incarnate and the atonement for sin.

Also, which of the creation stories, that "pre-date" Genesis, speak of a Holy God that creates from nothing?

Originally posted by UnrealZA
There are no other Jesus "characters" in any story claiming to be God Incarnate and the atonement for sin.

Also, which of the creation stories, that "pre-date" Genesis, speak of a Holy God that creates from nothing?

www.wilsonsalmanac.com...
Here's a whole list of "charecters" who were claimed to be God incarnate. Krishna comes to mind off the top of my head.

And every creation story begins with nothing.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by UnrealZA
There are no other Jesus "characters" in any story claiming to be God Incarnate and the atonement for sin.

Also, which of the creation stories, that "pre-date" Genesis, speak of a Holy God that creates from nothing?

www.wilsonsalmanac.com...
Here's a whole list of "charecters" who were claimed to be God incarnate. Krishna comes to mind off the top of my head.

And every creation story begins with nothing.

Yep, Krishna comes to my mind also. All this comes from Zoroastrianism. Nimrod is Zoroaster. Nimrod who was more than a mere man. Nimrod who married his mother Semiramis. Nimrod who is Osiris. Nimrod who is Zeus

Nimrod who dies and is said to be Baal the sun. Tammuz born of his mother Semiramis is Nimrod incarnate.

Tammaz is Horus of Egypt. Tammaz is Krishna. Tammuz is Hercules. etc. etc. etc. etc.

When will you realize that Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz were real people. The false gods and religions come from Babylon.

Jesus was a real person and the Messiah. You are merely looking at how the deceiver has deceived the world............. and you.

How many times do I have to tell you, Hinduism did not come from zoroastrianism. And just because you picked the Jesus myth is more commonly believed does not mean it's true.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
How many times do I have to tell you, Hinduism did not come from zoroastrianism. And just because you picked the Jesus myth is more commonly believed does not mean it's true.

Sorry, Hinduism came from Zoroastrianism. Where did the Hindu trident come from?

You are being deceived, plain and simple. Check the timelines of Zoroaster. You will find confusing and conflicting timelines. Same with religion..........same with the tower of Babel..............Same with Egypt..............ALL TO DECEIVE YOU...........AND IT WORKS.