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LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830
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Flyer:
Shut up and go away? NEVER! Every ATS member has the right to write on any of these Bible Topics with total disregard to anything God says through His Living Word. The girls must stoop to this kind of ‘off-topic’ trickery to demonize their debating opponent, because all of them combined cannot write two solid paragraphs of commentary on ANY of these ‘mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) topics. Does all of this “Terral Bashing” combined “quote >>” one thing I said ‘on’ this Topic and refute one thing using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? No. You are here to slander Terral and throw as much mud in the air as possible to hide your own ignorance to the truth of this Rapture Topic that Paul clearly teaches (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17). Let’s bash Paul and Terral and kill two birds with one stone! What pitiful NONSENSE! Can anyone here think up any reasons that God might give us the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) concerning women in these ways?
Why do these commands even exist in Scripture AND why are the girls here so willing to edit these things from God’s Living Word? Things are NOT as they appear and there are many dynamics working through our deliberations and indeed our incarnations here on the earth as men and women. Note the components of this diagram very carefully:
Figure 1 seeks to represent God’s Infinite Realm were most everyone here is a “god” (Ps. 82:6, John 10:34) of greater or lesser degree. The original Satanic Rebellion has taken place in God’s Infinite Realm where myriads of infinite ‘gods’ have been caught up in the devil’s attempt to defeat God Himself. Satan went out deceiving and those incarnated as “women” (Fig. 3) represent those deceived by the devil himself! Those ‘gods’ incarnate here as ‘men’ laughed a Satan and stood firm, but they were eventually deceived by those incarnate here as ‘women.’
That typology is taught in Eve feeding the fruit to Adam back in the garden, as women stand in the Eve position today doing the SAME EXACT THING. All of us are standing within two ticks of God’s Infinite Clock back in Figure 1, while we incarnate through His Word into this Creation down onto “Our Earth” within the Visible Universe. Paul is telling women to remain silent during the congregation’s deliberations of all these Bible Topics, because distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) displays their GUILT in God’s Infinite Realm at the very same time!
The key is that women are incarnate here as the inward part of ‘man.’ Gen. 2:20-22. Men exhibit the capacity to visualize the three dimensional aspects of “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3) depicted in all my diagrams outside themselves in the Visible Universe of Time and Space. However, women visualize things ‘inwardly’ without any capacity to exteriorize these things outside themselves in a multidimensional (3, 4 or more dimensions) manner. The woman’s relationship with her husband mirrors the man’s relationship with the angels, as both bear the ‘image and glory of God’ (1Cor. 11:7). Women are to pray with their heads covered, as a symbol of authority, “because of the angels” (1Cor. 11:10), but do you understand why? Scripture says,
The angels incarnate among us were deceived by NOBODY in God’s Infinite Realm, but women are those who deceived the men! Therefore, the incarnate angel AND the man are not to pray with his head covered, because THAT would associate BOTH with women who were deceived and those who did fall to the trickery of Satan among us as we speak. The fact is that without the intercessory ‘relationship’ of the woman (water witness = helper = Gen. 2:18+20) to her husband (spirit witness = glory of God), she has no hope whatsoever of recognizing even the most simple doctrinal precepts teaching salvation, grace doctrine or our Rapture in any way, shape or form. No man (spirit) knows his own body (woman) like the husband of one wife. He does have the capacity to take the information from my diagrams and decipher that into a two dimensional rendering that ‘can’ be inwardly expressed and understood by his particular ‘body’ (woman) IF (and only IF) she remains quiet and hears these things “in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
I am in no way surprised at all that many of the womenfolk here continue yelling “NO RAPTURE!” at the top of their lungs, because this is a ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) topic (1Cor. 15:51) and this shouting is the very opposite of Paul’s studious commands presented here for your benefit. God will indeed judge secrets of men through Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16) and every word of these deliberations will be carried by the angels and displayed before all creation to come back and haunt every one of you. In that day you can explain to God from under the intense scrutiny of the Light of Day why you chose to ignore the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) written plainly in His Living Word. Those of you with tags of reputation (scholar, writer, heh) will have the most explaining to do, when God points to these examples of how each of you was warned over and over again. That is the day when an infinite number of Kingdoms assigned to each of you in God’s Infinite Realm will be taken away and handed to another. : 0 )
You guys keep up the good work . . .
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]
Flyer >> OMG!!!!! That was amazing. Absolutely and totally amazing. Women should shut up and go away ... explain it to my husband (man to man I suppose) ...
Shut up and go away? NEVER! Every ATS member has the right to write on any of these Bible Topics with total disregard to anything God says through His Living Word. The girls must stoop to this kind of ‘off-topic’ trickery to demonize their debating opponent, because all of them combined cannot write two solid paragraphs of commentary on ANY of these ‘mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) topics. Does all of this “Terral Bashing” combined “quote >>” one thing I said ‘on’ this Topic and refute one thing using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? No. You are here to slander Terral and throw as much mud in the air as possible to hide your own ignorance to the truth of this Rapture Topic that Paul clearly teaches (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17). Let’s bash Paul and Terral and kill two birds with one stone! What pitiful NONSENSE! Can anyone here think up any reasons that God might give us the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) concerning women in these ways?
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do NOT allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF THEY continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
Why do these commands even exist in Scripture AND why are the girls here so willing to edit these things from God’s Living Word? Things are NOT as they appear and there are many dynamics working through our deliberations and indeed our incarnations here on the earth as men and women. Note the components of this diagram very carefully:
Figure 1 seeks to represent God’s Infinite Realm were most everyone here is a “god” (Ps. 82:6, John 10:34) of greater or lesser degree. The original Satanic Rebellion has taken place in God’s Infinite Realm where myriads of infinite ‘gods’ have been caught up in the devil’s attempt to defeat God Himself. Satan went out deceiving and those incarnated as “women” (Fig. 3) represent those deceived by the devil himself! Those ‘gods’ incarnate here as ‘men’ laughed a Satan and stood firm, but they were eventually deceived by those incarnate here as ‘women.’
“And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her.” Ecc. 7:26.
That typology is taught in Eve feeding the fruit to Adam back in the garden, as women stand in the Eve position today doing the SAME EXACT THING. All of us are standing within two ticks of God’s Infinite Clock back in Figure 1, while we incarnate through His Word into this Creation down onto “Our Earth” within the Visible Universe. Paul is telling women to remain silent during the congregation’s deliberations of all these Bible Topics, because distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) displays their GUILT in God’s Infinite Realm at the very same time!
The key is that women are incarnate here as the inward part of ‘man.’ Gen. 2:20-22. Men exhibit the capacity to visualize the three dimensional aspects of “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3) depicted in all my diagrams outside themselves in the Visible Universe of Time and Space. However, women visualize things ‘inwardly’ without any capacity to exteriorize these things outside themselves in a multidimensional (3, 4 or more dimensions) manner. The woman’s relationship with her husband mirrors the man’s relationship with the angels, as both bear the ‘image and glory of God’ (1Cor. 11:7). Women are to pray with their heads covered, as a symbol of authority, “because of the angels” (1Cor. 11:10), but do you understand why? Scripture says,
“Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained ANGELS without knowing it.” Hebrews 13:2.
The angels incarnate among us were deceived by NOBODY in God’s Infinite Realm, but women are those who deceived the men! Therefore, the incarnate angel AND the man are not to pray with his head covered, because THAT would associate BOTH with women who were deceived and those who did fall to the trickery of Satan among us as we speak. The fact is that without the intercessory ‘relationship’ of the woman (water witness = helper = Gen. 2:18+20) to her husband (spirit witness = glory of God), she has no hope whatsoever of recognizing even the most simple doctrinal precepts teaching salvation, grace doctrine or our Rapture in any way, shape or form. No man (spirit) knows his own body (woman) like the husband of one wife. He does have the capacity to take the information from my diagrams and decipher that into a two dimensional rendering that ‘can’ be inwardly expressed and understood by his particular ‘body’ (woman) IF (and only IF) she remains quiet and hears these things “in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
I am in no way surprised at all that many of the womenfolk here continue yelling “NO RAPTURE!” at the top of their lungs, because this is a ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) topic (1Cor. 15:51) and this shouting is the very opposite of Paul’s studious commands presented here for your benefit. God will indeed judge secrets of men through Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16) and every word of these deliberations will be carried by the angels and displayed before all creation to come back and haunt every one of you. In that day you can explain to God from under the intense scrutiny of the Light of Day why you chose to ignore the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) written plainly in His Living Word. Those of you with tags of reputation (scholar, writer, heh) will have the most explaining to do, when God points to these examples of how each of you was warned over and over again. That is the day when an infinite number of Kingdoms assigned to each of you in God’s Infinite Realm will be taken away and handed to another. : 0 )
You guys keep up the good work . . .
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]
Terral,
You've made a very erroneous assumption. I don't consider you a "debating opponent". You keep using the word "debate" as if calling what you're doing by that name legitimizes what you are saying. It doesn't. You can claim "debate" till Jesus comes back (which will occur at the end of the tribulation and at which point the rapture will take place and I'll meet you in the air and say "I told you so"), but that doesn't make anything you say scripturally sound.
You've made a very erroneous assumption. I don't consider you a "debating opponent". You keep using the word "debate" as if calling what you're doing by that name legitimizes what you are saying. It doesn't. You can claim "debate" till Jesus comes back (which will occur at the end of the tribulation and at which point the rapture will take place and I'll meet you in the air and say "I told you so"), but that doesn't make anything you say scripturally sound.
Terral, can you explain this to me...
is this talking about the rapture or the 2nd coming? If its the rapture, how can it be like Jesus sweeping us away like a thief and then all of a sudden blow a trumpet at his rapture coming? Kinda anticlimatic isn't it?
I have to ask terral, will the dead be raised to heaven during the rapture? If yes, there is a contradiction
So martha believed the dead in christ shall rise at the LAST DAY, which would contradict 1 corinthians 15:52 if indeed that verse talked about the rapture and not the second coming.
Look at this,
If this is talking about the rapture, this is contradicting what martha said, that the dead will rise at the LAST DAY. If this is talking about the rapture, why is Jesus shouting with a loud trump, with the voice of an archangel? I thought he was coming like a thief in the night? If you were a thief, would you run into the house and shout with the voice of an archangel? Negative.
Three verses saying Jesus shall come with a loud trump, are all three seperate events?
This is my favorite one terral:
Try to understand what i'm thinking, this verse says IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, Jesus shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and gather his elect. THis is AFTER the tribulation, this is contradictory to what you are saying, that Jesus shall gather his elect before the tribulation.
Note also that this verse also has the sounding of a great trump. I'm guessing this is synonymous with the other verses that has a last sounding trump, which means they are talking about one PARTICULAR EVENT, and since matth 24:29 says immediately after the tribulation of those days and later on says Jesus will collect up his elect, i have to conclude that there is no pretribulation rapture, unless you can show me through the bible where i am wrong.
Thx again terrel and anyone else taking the time to read what i wrote, i know its a lot.
Sidenote: Guys, it is not up to us to question anyone's motives or intentions, that is something that only God knows, for he is the onlyone that 100% knows the intention of the hearts, so it is not in our place to say someone is a false prophet nor should we bring each other down with name calling and such.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
is this talking about the rapture or the 2nd coming? If its the rapture, how can it be like Jesus sweeping us away like a thief and then all of a sudden blow a trumpet at his rapture coming? Kinda anticlimatic isn't it?
I have to ask terral, will the dead be raised to heaven during the rapture? If yes, there is a contradiction
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
So martha believed the dead in christ shall rise at the LAST DAY, which would contradict 1 corinthians 15:52 if indeed that verse talked about the rapture and not the second coming.
Look at this,
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17)
If this is talking about the rapture, this is contradicting what martha said, that the dead will rise at the LAST DAY. If this is talking about the rapture, why is Jesus shouting with a loud trump, with the voice of an archangel? I thought he was coming like a thief in the night? If you were a thief, would you run into the house and shout with the voice of an archangel? Negative.
Three verses saying Jesus shall come with a loud trump, are all three seperate events?
This is my favorite one terral:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24: 29-31)
Try to understand what i'm thinking, this verse says IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, Jesus shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and gather his elect. THis is AFTER the tribulation, this is contradictory to what you are saying, that Jesus shall gather his elect before the tribulation.
Note also that this verse also has the sounding of a great trump. I'm guessing this is synonymous with the other verses that has a last sounding trump, which means they are talking about one PARTICULAR EVENT, and since matth 24:29 says immediately after the tribulation of those days and later on says Jesus will collect up his elect, i have to conclude that there is no pretribulation rapture, unless you can show me through the bible where i am wrong.
Thx again terrel and anyone else taking the time to read what i wrote, i know its a lot.
Sidenote: Guys, it is not up to us to question anyone's motives or intentions, that is something that only God knows, for he is the onlyone that 100% knows the intention of the hearts, so it is not in our place to say someone is a false prophet nor should we bring each other down with name calling and such.
Valhall:
We agree. That is why you continue to write “off-topic” nonsense without quoting anything from this ongoing ‘debate’ where we are supposed to be presenting our ‘opposing views.’ You and your girlfriends here do not possess sufficient knowledge on any of these “mystery” (1Cor. 15:51) topics to write a pair of solid paragraphs, so your intention is to continue this “Terral Bashing” crusade with the hearty approval of our Moderators who appear unconcerned if you write a thousand off-topic “Dear Terral” posts. Hey, just open up a clean “Reply Box” and bash away! That forces me to write “off the topic” also, OR allow your nonsense to stand.
I am presenting “my” opposing views to the error I see popping up all over this thread on this “Rapture” Topic. If I failed to quote you, but rambled incessantly in a series of off-topic “Dear Valhall” Posts, then the Mods would likely chime in to say, “Hey, stop attacking other members and focus on the topic!” That means you must be somebody special!
Really? You must have forgotten to “quote >>” that part to prove a case for something else using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15) in this “Debate.” You saying so, missy, means NOTHING. Once again I would love to “quote you >>” on this Rapture Topic, but you refuse to write ON THE TOPIC! Save your private messages for someone who cares . . .
Anyone can go up the thread and see I at least try to stick to the topic. Even if our third party readers and Mods disagree with ‘my interpretations,’ at least they can see I have put a considerable amount of time and effort in my years of Bible study and attempts to explain things. Enough Terral dribble! Just “quote me >>” and show everyone my errors using Scripture and I will graciously do the same for you in this 'one-sided' debate.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Valhall >> You've made a very erroneous assumption. I don't consider you a "debating opponent".
We agree. That is why you continue to write “off-topic” nonsense without quoting anything from this ongoing ‘debate’ where we are supposed to be presenting our ‘opposing views.’ You and your girlfriends here do not possess sufficient knowledge on any of these “mystery” (1Cor. 15:51) topics to write a pair of solid paragraphs, so your intention is to continue this “Terral Bashing” crusade with the hearty approval of our Moderators who appear unconcerned if you write a thousand off-topic “Dear Terral” posts. Hey, just open up a clean “Reply Box” and bash away! That forces me to write “off the topic” also, OR allow your nonsense to stand.
Valhall >> You keep using the word "debate" as if calling what you're doing by that name legitimizes what you are saying.
I am presenting “my” opposing views to the error I see popping up all over this thread on this “Rapture” Topic. If I failed to quote you, but rambled incessantly in a series of off-topic “Dear Valhall” Posts, then the Mods would likely chime in to say, “Hey, stop attacking other members and focus on the topic!” That means you must be somebody special!
Valhall >> It doesn't. You can claim "debate" till Jesus comes back (which will occur at the end of the tribulation and at which point the rapture will take place and I'll meet you in the air and say "I told you so"), but that doesn't make anything you say scripturally sound.
Really? You must have forgotten to “quote >>” that part to prove a case for something else using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15) in this “Debate.” You saying so, missy, means NOTHING. Once again I would love to “quote you >>” on this Rapture Topic, but you refuse to write ON THE TOPIC! Save your private messages for someone who cares . . .
Anyone can go up the thread and see I at least try to stick to the topic. Even if our third party readers and Mods disagree with ‘my interpretations,’ at least they can see I have put a considerable amount of time and effort in my years of Bible study and attempts to explain things. Enough Terral dribble! Just “quote me >>” and show everyone my errors using Scripture and I will graciously do the same for you in this 'one-sided' debate.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Hi Shortness:
Paul is describing our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) taking place when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Christ’s physical ‘Second Coming’ is part of Christ’s “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+) events taking place some 1000 Years LATER.
Heh . . . Nobody knows the ‘timing’ of the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) STARTING, except “The Father Alone” (Matt. 24:36). The Day of the Lord bears the “thief in the night” characteristic, but NOT Christ’s coming for us once that Day is truly “at hand.” You are confusing how these events are ‘prophesied’ in Scripture VERSUS how they will be fulfilled at our mystery Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). In other words, Christ could tell His Disciples precisely how the 1000 Years Day of the Lord would END with “Your Coming” at the “END of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+). Those are the Fourth Quarter events of the “Day of the Lord” being represented like a Football Game. However, Christ still hasn’t a clue as to when the “First Quarter” will begin, which coincides with the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) being “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Your query is about how the 1000 Years STARTS (Paul’s mystery Rapture) VERSUS how the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” will END (Christ’s Matthew 24 Discourse). This is really very simple, once you lay things out in a proper perspective. The problem is that scholars have mixed these things together for so long that professing Christians today have made no room in their broken theologies for ‘the truth’ of this Mystery Rapture Topic.
Please ask a thousand questions if that helps you finally see ‘the truth’ on this Rapture Topic. Christ is talking about the “Second Resurrection” taking place just prior to the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. One of the most difficult truths of Scripture to realize is that the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” actually started with John the Baptist (Matt. 11:13) appearing to clear the way for the Lord (Malachi 3:1) almost 2000 years ago. God had to place that “Day of the Lord” in abeyance in order to restore the ‘heavenly’ parts of this creation FIRST (Acts 15:14) using the Gentile dominant “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) to fill the vacated seats, when Satan and all the members of his evil body (Eph. 6:12) are chained to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord all over again at our Rapture.
Elijah will appear to Israel exactly like John the Baptist did 2000 years ago, but this time the provision for sins will have already been made by Jesus Christ at Calvary! Therefore, nobody will take the Holy Spirit from Elijah like Christ did back in Matthew 3:15+16, which caused John (Elijah) to decrease as Christ had to increase (John 3:30). You and I are raised to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord with Peter and the early rains bride “cut off” (Rev. 20:4) almost 2000 years ago. Christ (John 11 from your quote) is talking about those raised to END the 1000 Years.
Nobody is said to be “IN Christ Jesus” anywhere outside the Pauline Epistles. Peter and the early rains ‘bride’ (John 3:29) ‘can’ be said to be “IN Christ,” because they are anchored to the ‘Holy Spirit’ (water witness) third of the Father + Son + Holy Spirit (3 into the 1 = 1John 5:8) Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5). However, those obeying Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message are baptized into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27), which corresponds to where the “Father and I are one.”
Find “Christ Jesus” under the red arrow of Figure 1, as the Father (spirit), Son (soul = blood) and Holy Spirit (water) are “3 into the 1” (1John 5:8). The arched ‘line’ between the Son and Holy Spirit represents a ‘veil’ just like the “First Veil” separating the “Realm of the Word” blood (Soul) realm from the “This Creation” water (Flesh) realm. However, once we were transferred (Col. 1:13) into the Kingdom of His Beloved Son (Son in diagram), then we also gained the right to access the “Holy of Holies” component to step behind the “Second Veil” and commune with “My Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:32+33). Everyone “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) through obeying our Gospel receives these things (and much more) by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8+9). However, Peter and the Kingdom ‘bride’ receive these same things, but BY WORKS AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE (James 2:24). Everyone obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, etc.) to be found standing upon that ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) must be judged with the world and the angels (by us = 1Cor. 6:2+3) in order to ‘some day’ be found “IN” Christ Jesus (Son) beyond the Jordan River (First Veil) of Heaven above.
[Continued]
Shortness >> Terral, can you explain this to me... 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Is this talking about the rapture or the 2nd coming?
Paul is describing our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) taking place when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Christ’s physical ‘Second Coming’ is part of Christ’s “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+) events taking place some 1000 Years LATER.
Shortness >> If its the rapture, how can it be like Jesus sweeping us away like a thief and then all of a sudden blow a trumpet at his rapture coming? Kind of anticlimactic isn't it?
Heh . . . Nobody knows the ‘timing’ of the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) STARTING, except “The Father Alone” (Matt. 24:36). The Day of the Lord bears the “thief in the night” characteristic, but NOT Christ’s coming for us once that Day is truly “at hand.” You are confusing how these events are ‘prophesied’ in Scripture VERSUS how they will be fulfilled at our mystery Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). In other words, Christ could tell His Disciples precisely how the 1000 Years Day of the Lord would END with “Your Coming” at the “END of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+). Those are the Fourth Quarter events of the “Day of the Lord” being represented like a Football Game. However, Christ still hasn’t a clue as to when the “First Quarter” will begin, which coincides with the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) being “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Your query is about how the 1000 Years STARTS (Paul’s mystery Rapture) VERSUS how the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” will END (Christ’s Matthew 24 Discourse). This is really very simple, once you lay things out in a proper perspective. The problem is that scholars have mixed these things together for so long that professing Christians today have made no room in their broken theologies for ‘the truth’ of this Mystery Rapture Topic.
Shortness >> I have to ask Terral, will the dead be raised to heaven during the rapture? If yes, there is a contradiction
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Please ask a thousand questions if that helps you finally see ‘the truth’ on this Rapture Topic. Christ is talking about the “Second Resurrection” taking place just prior to the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. One of the most difficult truths of Scripture to realize is that the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” actually started with John the Baptist (Matt. 11:13) appearing to clear the way for the Lord (Malachi 3:1) almost 2000 years ago. God had to place that “Day of the Lord” in abeyance in order to restore the ‘heavenly’ parts of this creation FIRST (Acts 15:14) using the Gentile dominant “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) to fill the vacated seats, when Satan and all the members of his evil body (Eph. 6:12) are chained to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord all over again at our Rapture.
Elijah will appear to Israel exactly like John the Baptist did 2000 years ago, but this time the provision for sins will have already been made by Jesus Christ at Calvary! Therefore, nobody will take the Holy Spirit from Elijah like Christ did back in Matthew 3:15+16, which caused John (Elijah) to decrease as Christ had to increase (John 3:30). You and I are raised to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord with Peter and the early rains bride “cut off” (Rev. 20:4) almost 2000 years ago. Christ (John 11 from your quote) is talking about those raised to END the 1000 Years.
Shortness >> So martha believed the dead in christ shall rise at the LAST DAY, which would contradict 1 corinthians 15:52 if indeed that verse talked about the rapture and not the second coming.
Nobody is said to be “IN Christ Jesus” anywhere outside the Pauline Epistles. Peter and the early rains ‘bride’ (John 3:29) ‘can’ be said to be “IN Christ,” because they are anchored to the ‘Holy Spirit’ (water witness) third of the Father + Son + Holy Spirit (3 into the 1 = 1John 5:8) Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5). However, those obeying Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message are baptized into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27), which corresponds to where the “Father and I are one.”
Find “Christ Jesus” under the red arrow of Figure 1, as the Father (spirit), Son (soul = blood) and Holy Spirit (water) are “3 into the 1” (1John 5:8). The arched ‘line’ between the Son and Holy Spirit represents a ‘veil’ just like the “First Veil” separating the “Realm of the Word” blood (Soul) realm from the “This Creation” water (Flesh) realm. However, once we were transferred (Col. 1:13) into the Kingdom of His Beloved Son (Son in diagram), then we also gained the right to access the “Holy of Holies” component to step behind the “Second Veil” and commune with “My Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:32+33). Everyone “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) through obeying our Gospel receives these things (and much more) by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8+9). However, Peter and the Kingdom ‘bride’ receive these same things, but BY WORKS AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE (James 2:24). Everyone obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, etc.) to be found standing upon that ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) must be judged with the world and the angels (by us = 1Cor. 6:2+3) in order to ‘some day’ be found “IN” Christ Jesus (Son) beyond the Jordan River (First Veil) of Heaven above.
Shortness >> Look at this,
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17)”
Shortness Commentary >> If this is talking about the rapture, this is contradicting what martha said, that the dead will rise at the LAST DAY.
[Continued]
Shortness! Please try to ‘rightly divide’ (2Tim. 2:15) Christ’s teachings to Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) from the things He revealed to
Paul LATER (after Acts 9:15) concerning the Mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). Everything that Paul connects
to “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9), until LATER revealed through Paul’s Ministry and these Epistles to the
Gentiles. Let’s try understanding this concept from a different perspective:
Paul’s “my gospel” is called the “gospel TO THE UNCIRCUMCISED” (Gal. 2:7), which you must not confuse with the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 9:35) sent to Israel ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7). (Gospels Thread >> www.belowtopsecret.com... ) How can you even begin to teach “the mystery AMONG THE Gentiles” from Paul’s “mystery” ministry right along side of Christ’s teachings to Israel in the Four Gospels? Everything that Paul connects to “The Mystery” was still “Hidden IN GOD” through all the years of the Four Gospels to be received through the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) LATER down the road from Jesus Christ IN HEAVEN. Your seeming contradiction was created, because you are trying to join together what GOD HIMSELF has put asunder (divided).
This is the same question from above. The “Day of the Lord” bears the “thief in the night” characteristic and NOT Christ coming for “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Nobody in the OT could ‘prophesy’ about that mystery event, because those things remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9). The START of the “Day of the Lord” still must “Come” (2Thes. 2:2) like a thief in the night, because nobody here can calculate the day or hour! However, once that hour ‘COMES’ (2Thes. 2:2) then everyone taking part will certainly see Christ coming for them!
No! Paul’s mystery “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) STARTED the 1000 Years that sees the Kingdom and Temple restored that the antichrist comes to make ‘desolate’ (Matt. 24:15) some 1000 years LATER. You and I are with Christ for the entire 1000 years IN HEAVEN, before anything in Matthew 24 even begins! Once again you have intermingled Christ’s “END of the Age” events with those STARTING the 1000 Years (Paul) at our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). In other words, we are still living some 1000 Years BEFORE Christ appears in Matthew 24:30+31. We do not anticipate the ‘end of the age’ in our lifetimes. We do anticipate the START of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord!” That entire 1000 Years must PASS, before anything in Matthew 24 can even begin.
No problem. These things (2Pet. 3:14-16) are certainly “hard to understand,” which even Peter concedes concerning the ‘wisdom given him.’
Your common sense certainly bears no characteristics of “Shortness” in this regard. They shout names and act foolishly, because they do not possess the maturity (1Cor. 2:6+7) IN Christ Jesus to add anything meaningful to this debate. Please take the time to open your Bible to see if everything presented here is the truth.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[The End]
[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body[BODY and NOT the ‘bride’ of John 3:29], which is the church [mystery church = Eph. 5:32 and NOT the kingdom church of Matt. 16:16-19], in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of this church I was made a minister according to the dispensation from God [Eph. 3:2 = for you Gentiles] bestowed ON ME for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery [Eph. 3:3] which has been HIDDEN from the past ages and generations, but has NOW [62 AD after the close of Acts] been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery AMONG THE GENTILES [ NOT Israel only = Matt. 15:24], which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Colossians 1:24-27.
Paul’s “my gospel” is called the “gospel TO THE UNCIRCUMCISED” (Gal. 2:7), which you must not confuse with the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 9:35) sent to Israel ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7). (Gospels Thread >> www.belowtopsecret.com... ) How can you even begin to teach “the mystery AMONG THE Gentiles” from Paul’s “mystery” ministry right along side of Christ’s teachings to Israel in the Four Gospels? Everything that Paul connects to “The Mystery” was still “Hidden IN GOD” through all the years of the Four Gospels to be received through the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) LATER down the road from Jesus Christ IN HEAVEN. Your seeming contradiction was created, because you are trying to join together what GOD HIMSELF has put asunder (divided).
Shortness >> If this is talking about the rapture, why is Jesus shouting with a loud trump, with the voice of an archangel? I thought he was coming like a thief in the night? If you were a thief, would you run into the house and shout with the voice of an archangel? Negative.
This is the same question from above. The “Day of the Lord” bears the “thief in the night” characteristic and NOT Christ coming for “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Nobody in the OT could ‘prophesy’ about that mystery event, because those things remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9). The START of the “Day of the Lord” still must “Come” (2Thes. 2:2) like a thief in the night, because nobody here can calculate the day or hour! However, once that hour ‘COMES’ (2Thes. 2:2) then everyone taking part will certainly see Christ coming for them!
Shortness >> Three verses saying Jesus shall come with a loud trump, are all three separate events? This is my favorite one Terral:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24: 29-31)”
Shortness Commentary >> Try to understand what i'm thinking, this verse says IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, Jesus shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and gather his elect. This is AFTER the tribulation, this is contradictory to what you are saying, that Jesus shall gather his elect before the tribulation.
No! Paul’s mystery “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) STARTED the 1000 Years that sees the Kingdom and Temple restored that the antichrist comes to make ‘desolate’ (Matt. 24:15) some 1000 years LATER. You and I are with Christ for the entire 1000 years IN HEAVEN, before anything in Matthew 24 even begins! Once again you have intermingled Christ’s “END of the Age” events with those STARTING the 1000 Years (Paul) at our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). In other words, we are still living some 1000 Years BEFORE Christ appears in Matthew 24:30+31. We do not anticipate the ‘end of the age’ in our lifetimes. We do anticipate the START of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord!” That entire 1000 Years must PASS, before anything in Matthew 24 can even begin.
Shortness >> Thx again Terral and anyone else taking the time to read what i wrote, i know its a lot.
No problem. These things (2Pet. 3:14-16) are certainly “hard to understand,” which even Peter concedes concerning the ‘wisdom given him.’
Sidenote: Guys, it is not up to us to question anyone's motives or intentions, that is something that only God knows, for he is the only one that 100% knows the intention of the hearts, so it is not in our place to say someone is a false prophet nor should we bring each other down with name calling and such.
Your common sense certainly bears no characteristics of “Shortness” in this regard. They shout names and act foolishly, because they do not possess the maturity (1Cor. 2:6+7) IN Christ Jesus to add anything meaningful to this debate. Please take the time to open your Bible to see if everything presented here is the truth.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[The End]
[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]
Originally posted by Terral
Shut up and go away? NEVER! Every ATS member has the right to write on any of these Bible Topics ...
Wow .. good for you!!
... with total disregard to anything God says through His Living Word.
... oooooooops. I almost thought you had it right. Oh well.
You are here to slander Terral ...
Pronouns Terral. Use pronouns or it sounds like you are possessed and some demon is actually speaking out of your mouth. (or is that really the case??)
Seriously, Terral, Sweetie ... we aren't bashing you. YOU are bashing you. Every time you post your cult drivel and refuse to actually read somoene else's posts (like calling me 'he/him' for weeks upon weeks even after eveyrone told you differently) .. you just bash yourself and cause your own grief. When you reveal your anti-Christian agenda and arrogance in such a manner you are really bashing yourself.
and throw as much mud in the air as possible to hide your own ignorance to the truth of this Rapture
Telling the TRUTH that MEN wrote the bible and that MEN naturally transmitted their CULTURE into the bible as they wrote it is not throwing MUD. Its the truth. Oh .. and frankly, I find your position to be ignorant. So there ya' go .. right back atchya.
Can anyone here think up any reasons that God might give us the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) concerning women in these ways? [
God didn't give any commandments about men being superior spiritually or mentally to women and that women should shut up etc etc .... MEN and their CULTURE put those things into the bible .. not God. And it was probably men like you .. men who were SCARED that women were actually smarter .. so they came up with the notion that God wanted them to shut up and only listen to their man-masters. Sickening really.
Like I said .. take it up with the mother of John the Baptizer. She wasn't the one struck speechless due to lack of faith or understanding .. it was her husband.
Originally posted by Terral
“Hey, stop attacking other members and focus on the topic!”
When you post crap like (paraphrase) - God wants women to shut up and bow to their man-masters - THAT is off topic from the topic of this thread - The Left Behind series and LaHaye.
Originally posted by Byrd
The main conention of the original post of this thread was that the LaHaye slant/teaching that is so popular today was not an original teaching of the early Christians. This has nothing to do with a rapture or the Rapture or anything else.
If you read the writings of both Protestant and Catholic notable scholars, you will see that such beliefs were generally not held by either sect until around the 1800's...
END OF TOPIC.
[edit on 10/27/2006 by FlyersFan]
Flyers the more I read Mr. Terral post the more I come to the realization that he makes no sense at all.
Mr. Terral seems to regard women and woman role in life as the servant and slave, to be submissive to their fathers and then as property of their husbands.
Yes is sounds like a cult leader mind set.
Mr. Terral must have some bad experience with women in his life that he has to create in his personal world a special place just for them, to be quite, submissive and willing.
1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.".
This passage in the bible only shows that God was not the one that dictated that but just a man with the same problems with woman that Mr. Terral have.
Because God as stated in Genesis is both male and female, So I guess the bible most be exploited to satisfy needs.
The first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman (John 20:15-18).
The first European convert was a woman (Acts 16:14).
The only followers of Jesus to stand with Him in his crucifixion were women. There were woman in the upper room and anointed with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14, 2:1-4).
Jesus was born to an earthly mother, but not an earthly father(Matt. 1:18,etc.)
Only a woman understood Christ's upcoming death (Mark 14:8).
Women played a part as crucial to Christ's ministry as the men.
And women were the ones that made the statement of Christ empty tomb and testified for it when women testimonies were not permitted by the law of the times.
Luke 24:11 states that even the disciples thought their story was "nonsense, and they would not believe them." This is actually a benefit in proving the validity of the Gospel account.)
So more and more I see that Mr. Terral is trying to create and promote no only his own views but a new world religion with a new meaning for opinionated women, as shown here in this thread so far alone with his theories.
Mr. Terral seems to regard women and woman role in life as the servant and slave, to be submissive to their fathers and then as property of their husbands.
Yes is sounds like a cult leader mind set.
Mr. Terral must have some bad experience with women in his life that he has to create in his personal world a special place just for them, to be quite, submissive and willing.
1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.".
This passage in the bible only shows that God was not the one that dictated that but just a man with the same problems with woman that Mr. Terral have.
Because God as stated in Genesis is both male and female, So I guess the bible most be exploited to satisfy needs.
The first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman (John 20:15-18).
The first European convert was a woman (Acts 16:14).
The only followers of Jesus to stand with Him in his crucifixion were women. There were woman in the upper room and anointed with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14, 2:1-4).
Jesus was born to an earthly mother, but not an earthly father(Matt. 1:18,etc.)
Only a woman understood Christ's upcoming death (Mark 14:8).
Women played a part as crucial to Christ's ministry as the men.
And women were the ones that made the statement of Christ empty tomb and testified for it when women testimonies were not permitted by the law of the times.
Luke 24:11 states that even the disciples thought their story was "nonsense, and they would not believe them." This is actually a benefit in proving the validity of the Gospel account.)
So more and more I see that Mr. Terral is trying to create and promote no only his own views but a new world religion with a new meaning for opinionated women, as shown here in this thread so far alone with his theories.
Originally posted by Terral
Shortness! Please try to ‘rightly divide’ (2Tim. 2:15) Christ’s teachings to Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) from the things He revealed to Paul LATER (after Acts 9:15) concerning the Mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). Everything that Paul connects to “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9), until LATER revealed through Paul’s Ministry and these Epistles to the Gentiles. Let’s try understanding this concept from a different perspective:
Terral, you're asking me to rightly divide the word of truth but you go ahead and use matt 15:24 and take it out of context and say it only applies to Israel when the text i used came from paul?
It sounds even more contradicting by saying it only applies to Israel when other texts mention the same event which applies to all the elect.
Matthew 24:31 (Whole Chapter)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Paul’s “my gospel” is called the “gospel TO THE UNCIRCUMCISED” (Gal. 2:7), which you must not confuse with the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 9:35) sent to Israel ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7). (Gospels Thread >> www.belowtopsecret.com... )
You said the gospel of the kingdom applies to Israel only and that Pauls gospel is to the uncircumcised, that contradicts this bible text.
Matthew 24:14 (Whole Chapter)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
preached to the whole world means applies only to israel? Notice also it uses the exact wording that is found in matt 9:35
How can you even begin to teach “the mystery AMONG THE Gentiles” from Paul’s “mystery” ministry right along side of Christ’s teachings to Israel in the Four Gospels? Everything that Paul connects to “The Mystery” was still “Hidden IN GOD” through all the years of the Four Gospels to be received through the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) LATER down the road from Jesus Christ IN HEAVEN. Your seeming contradiction was created, because you are trying to join together what GOD HIMSELF has put asunder (divided).
So all this is steming from the idea that God's plan for the jews and gentiles are seperate right? And that is why its important for the Jews to establish a jewish state right? But didn't Jesus say that The House of Israel has been left desolate (matt 23:38) and that there is no more distinction between jews and gentiles?
Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
and that Jews are that of the heart
Romans 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
If this is true, why is there still some belief that the literal nation of Israel will be protected by God still when they have openly rejected Christ, and in that sense, cannot be spiritual Jews after they crucified him. That is why Jesus asserted that the house of israel would be left desolate, because the nation of Israel would not be able to accept Jesus as a nation.
This is the same question from above. The “Day of the Lord” bears the “thief in the night” characteristic and NOT Christ coming for “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Nobody in the OT could ‘prophesy’ about that mystery event, because those things remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9). The START of the “Day of the Lord” still must “Come” (2Thes. 2:2) like a thief in the night, because nobody here can calculate the day or hour! However, once that hour ‘COMES’ (2Thes. 2:2) then everyone taking part will certainly see Christ coming for them!
1000 years day of the lord? no one could prophecy the day of the lord? Once the day of the lord comes everyone taking part will certainly see Christ coming to them, this is refering to the saved right? Check these verses and see if it contradicts what you say.
Jeremiah 46:10 (Whole Chapter)
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
you say 1 thess 5:2 where it talks about the day of the lord is for the saved, but this says different.
Amos 5:18 (Whole Chapter)
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
you believe the day of the lord when christ shall come as a thief to rapture is church but amos 5 says its a day of darkness, why? Because the day of the lord is in reference to the unsaved that weren't sober and ready.
Isaiah 13:9 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
You don't make sense when you say that the day of the lord is like a thief in the night but go on to say that its not Christ coming for his church when pretribulation rapture uses these texts that mention the day of the lord as proof that its talking about pretribulation rapture.
Hi Shortness:
Christ’s words in Matthew 24 are given in context to Christ being sent to Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24). Look at my words in the quote above and note the “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) reference. What does Christ say in that verse?
I used this example to show you that Paul (Apostle of GENTILES = Rom. 11:13) is speaking in a totally different ‘context’ from Christ in the Four Gospels. Christ is talking about the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29), while Paul is talking about the mystery ‘body’ (Eph. 5:30+32).
“His Elect” are gathered from those obedient to the “eternal gospel” (Rev. 14:6) sent out just before the ‘end of the age.’
Of course the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the ‘whole world’ EVENTUALLY, but it first had to be accepted in Jerusalem:
Did Israel accept the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ as A NATION? No. This rejection of God’s purpose is what Paul refers to as their “transgression.” Romans 11:11. Elijah will return and restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) before the gospel of the kingdom goes the ‘whole world’ almost 1000 years LATER very near the ‘end of the age.’ Christ sent the Twelve to Israel ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7) to START the offering of the “gospel of the kingdom” 2000 years ago, as Peter is doing the same thing on Pentecost (Acts 2:14, 22, 36).
Your characterization of my view is inaccurate and oversimplified. God is gathering members to the Jewish dominant kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) through the gospel of the kingdom (Gospel #1). God is gathering members to the Gentile dominant grace “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) through Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message (#2). There are Jews and Gentiles in the kingdom bride AND the grace body of Christ.
No. Christ taught that every precept of Mosaic Law would remain, until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:18). Gentiles have been ‘without the Law’ from the beginning (Romans 2:14+15). Christ is scolding the ‘scribes and Pharisees’ (Matt. 23:29) as the rulers of Jerusalem in the passage you cite.
No, Shortness. Paul’s quotes above pertain ONLY to those obeying his “message of truth” (Eph. 1:13+14) or “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16) from the Epistle to the Romans. There is no such thing as a Jew or Greek “IN” Christ Jesus, because we have been baptized into Christ Himself. However, those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ in the Four Gospels are baptized into that kingdom and NOT into Christ Himself. These are two totally different Gospel messages with two different purposes under God for two separate ‘dispensations.’
No sir. Please quote anything you like and make a case for anything you wish. The 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” has a glorious aspect where God’s Spirit is poured out on all mankind (Joel 2:28+29, Acts 2:17+18) and a ‘wrath of God’ judgment that follows. The common error is to force this 1000 Year Period into becoming simply an ‘event.’
[Continued]
Terral Original >> Shortness! Please try to ‘rightly divide’ (2Tim. 2:15) Christ’s teachings to Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) from the things He revealed to Paul LATER (after Acts 9:15) concerning the Mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). Everything that Paul connects to “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9), until LATER revealed through Paul’s Ministry and these Epistles to the Gentiles.
Shortness >> Terral, you're asking me to rightly divide the word of truth but you go ahead and use matt 15:24 and take it out of context and say it only applies to Israel when the text i used came from paul?
Christ’s words in Matthew 24 are given in context to Christ being sent to Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24). Look at my words in the quote above and note the “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) reference. What does Christ say in that verse?
“But He answered and said, "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24.
I used this example to show you that Paul (Apostle of GENTILES = Rom. 11:13) is speaking in a totally different ‘context’ from Christ in the Four Gospels. Christ is talking about the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29), while Paul is talking about the mystery ‘body’ (Eph. 5:30+32).
Shortness >> It sounds even more contradicting by saying it only applies to Israel when other texts mention the same event which applies to all the elect.
Matthew 24:31 (Whole Chapter) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
“His Elect” are gathered from those obedient to the “eternal gospel” (Rev. 14:6) sent out just before the ‘end of the age.’
Shortness’ Reply >> You said the gospel of the kingdom applies to Israel only and that Pauls gospel is to the uncircumcised, that contradicts this bible text. (Matt. 24:14) Preached to the whole world means applies only to Israel? Notice also it uses the exact wording that is found in matt 9:35.
Of course the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the ‘whole world’ EVENTUALLY, but it first had to be accepted in Jerusalem:
”. . . and that repentance for forgiveness of sins [Mark 1:4+5] would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47.
Did Israel accept the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ as A NATION? No. This rejection of God’s purpose is what Paul refers to as their “transgression.” Romans 11:11. Elijah will return and restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) before the gospel of the kingdom goes the ‘whole world’ almost 1000 years LATER very near the ‘end of the age.’ Christ sent the Twelve to Israel ONLY (Matt. 10:5-7) to START the offering of the “gospel of the kingdom” 2000 years ago, as Peter is doing the same thing on Pentecost (Acts 2:14, 22, 36).
Shortness >> So all this is steming from the idea that God's plan for the jews and gentiles are seperate right?
Your characterization of my view is inaccurate and oversimplified. God is gathering members to the Jewish dominant kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) through the gospel of the kingdom (Gospel #1). God is gathering members to the Gentile dominant grace “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) through Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message (#2). There are Jews and Gentiles in the kingdom bride AND the grace body of Christ.
Shortness >> And that is why its important for the Jews to establish a jewish state right? But didn't Jesus say that The House of Israel has been left desolate (matt 23:38) and that there is no more distinction between jews and gentiles?
No. Christ taught that every precept of Mosaic Law would remain, until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:18). Gentiles have been ‘without the Law’ from the beginning (Romans 2:14+15). Christ is scolding the ‘scribes and Pharisees’ (Matt. 23:29) as the rulers of Jerusalem in the passage you cite.
Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Shortness >> and that Jews are that of the heart
Romans 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Shortness Commentary >> If this is true, why is there still some belief that the literal nation of Israel will be protected by God still when they have openly rejected Christ, and in that sense, cannot be spiritual Jews after they crucified him. That is why Jesus asserted that the house of israel would be left desolate, because the nation of Israel would not be able to accept Jesus as a nation.
No, Shortness. Paul’s quotes above pertain ONLY to those obeying his “message of truth” (Eph. 1:13+14) or “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16) from the Epistle to the Romans. There is no such thing as a Jew or Greek “IN” Christ Jesus, because we have been baptized into Christ Himself. However, those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ in the Four Gospels are baptized into that kingdom and NOT into Christ Himself. These are two totally different Gospel messages with two different purposes under God for two separate ‘dispensations.’
Shortness >> 1000 years day of the lord? no one could prophecy the day of the lord? Once the day of the lord comes everyone taking part will certainly see Christ coming to them, this is refering to the saved right? Check these verses and see if it contradicts what you say.
No sir. Please quote anything you like and make a case for anything you wish. The 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” has a glorious aspect where God’s Spirit is poured out on all mankind (Joel 2:28+29, Acts 2:17+18) and a ‘wrath of God’ judgment that follows. The common error is to force this 1000 Year Period into becoming simply an ‘event.’
[Continued]
Shortness >>You don't make sense when you say that the day of the lord is like a thief in the night but go on to say that its not Christ coming for his church when pretribulation rapture uses these texts that mention the day of the lord as proof that its talking about.
The ‘day of the Lord’ is not like a thief in the night (which you continue to misunderstand), but the COMING of the “Day of the Lord” STARTING is like a thief in the night. That means nobody knows WHEN that 1000 Years “Day” will BEGIN. The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is the invention of men that has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. Paul is describing how that 1000 Years Period BEGINS, while Christ (Matt. 24) is describing how the same 1000 Year Period ENDS . That is ‘the truth’ in a nutshell and so many continue to stumble over the simplicity of the statement.
That is “my interpretation” explained here ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) for everyone to see for themselves. A sowing and reaping ‘process’ is required for any believer to see ANYTHING relating to “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3), which means it takes TIME. I understand these things are difficult to see, which is what makes this an ATS topic in the first place. There is simply no way to begin harvesting truckloads of fruit when the seeds have just been planted in the ground.
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral
[The End]
[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]
Marg:
Maybe that is why you and your girlfriends refuse to “quote me >>” and make a case for something else using Scripture. 2Timothy 2:15. What has the ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) and those baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) have to offer those baptized into the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) to become a ‘servant of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15)? Nothing! My testimony is given for the benefit of the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) who ‘do’ have some chance of seeing the truth contained within. To everyone else my sayings are complete and utter foolishness (1Cor. 2:14) and make no sense whatsoever. Your whining and crying should be replaced with accurate interpretations and explanations of this Rapture Topic, instead of ranting in these “Dear Terral” love letters revealing the whole lot of you to be fools. The fact that my statements make no sense to the “NO RAPTURE” Theorists is adding fuel to the fire of your own ‘destruction’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) like for everyone distorting the ‘wisdom given him.’ While most everything is discounted in my testimony on these topics by my critics, the angels themselves are hanging on every word of these deliberations. We are all standing in the Judgment even now, but only some of us are aware of what is going on. The day will reveal that God is playing a nasty trick on His enemies and many of you have been set up for a big fat fall! Mock on! And enjoy these precious moments under the sun, because everything is very different on the other side of the veil.
I would have loved to ‘quote >>’ you on this Rapture Topic, but once again you never said anything ON THE TOPIC. Somebody start a “Men And Women Are Equal In The Eyes Of God” Thread and we can hash out our differences using Scripture. I would be very interested to see how you draft your hypothesis. GL.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Marg >> Flyers the more I read Mr. Terral post the more I come to the realization that he makes no sense at all.
Maybe that is why you and your girlfriends refuse to “quote me >>” and make a case for something else using Scripture. 2Timothy 2:15. What has the ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) and those baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) have to offer those baptized into the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) to become a ‘servant of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15)? Nothing! My testimony is given for the benefit of the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) who ‘do’ have some chance of seeing the truth contained within. To everyone else my sayings are complete and utter foolishness (1Cor. 2:14) and make no sense whatsoever. Your whining and crying should be replaced with accurate interpretations and explanations of this Rapture Topic, instead of ranting in these “Dear Terral” love letters revealing the whole lot of you to be fools. The fact that my statements make no sense to the “NO RAPTURE” Theorists is adding fuel to the fire of your own ‘destruction’ (2Pet. 3:14-16) like for everyone distorting the ‘wisdom given him.’ While most everything is discounted in my testimony on these topics by my critics, the angels themselves are hanging on every word of these deliberations. We are all standing in the Judgment even now, but only some of us are aware of what is going on. The day will reveal that God is playing a nasty trick on His enemies and many of you have been set up for a big fat fall! Mock on! And enjoy these precious moments under the sun, because everything is very different on the other side of the veil.
I would have loved to ‘quote >>’ you on this Rapture Topic, but once again you never said anything ON THE TOPIC. Somebody start a “Men And Women Are Equal In The Eyes Of God” Thread and we can hash out our differences using Scripture. I would be very interested to see how you draft your hypothesis. GL.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
You see Terral why I don't waste my time with you. Shortness just chopped your theories to pieces using scripture and what good did it do him? I
told you anytime I want I can cut your BS to pieces also, but what good does it do to waste my time. You won't acknowledge the facts.
You say a rapture happens and then a thousand day, DAY OF THE LORD and then the tribulation happens. Funny that the scripture says the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath and happens after the tribulation.
There Terral, I have scripturally shown you that the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath when the world is punished. You seem confused about this.
I have scripturally shown that the Great Tribulation happens before the sun is darkened and the moon fails to give lignt which occurs on the DAY OF THE LORD.
None of your charts agree with what scripture says Now you can sit back and make up some kind of BS that says that Paul knew more than Jesus and that you are the only person on earth that has figured it out.
I really don't have time to waste chopping your stuff to pieces with scripture when I know it will do little good. You are a very confused individual and yet you have the ability to fool yourself...................
Please carry on and explain how the DAY OF THE LORD is not a day of wrath and how the tribulation happens after the DAY OF THE LORD, even though scripture says differently.
I know.........it's a mystery..........and only you have figured it out......
You say a rapture happens and then a thousand day, DAY OF THE LORD and then the tribulation happens. Funny that the scripture says the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath and happens after the tribulation.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
There Terral, I have scripturally shown you that the DAY OF THE LORD is a day of wrath when the world is punished. You seem confused about this.
I have scripturally shown that the Great Tribulation happens before the sun is darkened and the moon fails to give lignt which occurs on the DAY OF THE LORD.
None of your charts agree with what scripture says Now you can sit back and make up some kind of BS that says that Paul knew more than Jesus and that you are the only person on earth that has figured it out.
I really don't have time to waste chopping your stuff to pieces with scripture when I know it will do little good. You are a very confused individual and yet you have the ability to fool yourself...................
Please carry on and explain how the DAY OF THE LORD is not a day of wrath and how the tribulation happens after the DAY OF THE LORD, even though scripture says differently.
I know.........it's a mystery..........and only you have figured it out......
^^^^ Terral, to understand what sun matrix is trying to say with the bible texts he provided is to first correlate the events that occur during hte
day of the Lord. Notice how it says the sun darkens, etc etc etc and then when he uses Matthew 24 to establish that its talking about the same thing
because of the events that take place.
If you consider also how the day of the Lord will be like at the last trump, and then correlate that as well to other bible texts that talk about how Jesus will come with a loud trump and the voice of hte archangel you can see that the bible is talking about the same event, with no room for contradiction because they use the same symbols to define how the event will occur.
Hope that helps
If you consider also how the day of the Lord will be like at the last trump, and then correlate that as well to other bible texts that talk about how Jesus will come with a loud trump and the voice of hte archangel you can see that the bible is talking about the same event, with no room for contradiction because they use the same symbols to define how the event will occur.
Hope that helps
Mr. Terral is kind of touchy on certain issues
Well I don't have to debunk your theory anymore because it has been debunked already over and over and still you refused to acknowledge that fact.
Beside the posters that had debunked you do not need any more help because you are falling all on you own.
I am even surprised that your theory has lasted already 15 pages in this thread and one or two more threads in ATS.
Well I don't have to debunk your theory anymore because it has been debunked already over and over and still you refused to acknowledge that fact.
Beside the posters that had debunked you do not need any more help because you are falling all on you own.
I am even surprised that your theory has lasted already 15 pages in this thread and one or two more threads in ATS.
A popular Hellenistic philosophy adapted by the Jewish men had them praying and thanking God that they were born male not female, free not slaves, and
Jew rather than Gentile. But Paul says:
Verse 11 is addressed to women. Typically women were not given an education. Men, on the other hand, knew that when receiving instruction from a Rabbi, they were to remain quiet and submissive. This is a relationship between teacher and student. Paul is merely explaining to the women, what most men already knew; the proper behavior of a student!
Verse 12 states that women are not allowed to teach that they have authority over men or to take authority over men. This was a problem in the early church where certain cults were trying to teach their own ideas. Paul is not saying that women cannot teach. He is saying they cannot teach that they have authority over men. Remember that Paul said ALL were equal in Christ.
Verses 13 and 14 are Paul’s repudiation of false teachings. Remember that Paul is teaching the Gentiles who had a totally different view of creation. He is saying that Adam was created first. Some cults taught that man and woman were created at the same time. Paul is saying this is not true.
The popular concept at that time was that Eve deceived Adam and women were responsible for the sin of the world. Paul is again, setting the record straight. Eve was deceived, Adam chose Eve over obedience to God.
Verse 15 is easily understood if you read 1 Timothy 5: 14
Apparently there was a cult that was that was teaching against this. Paul is simply saying that women should marry and bear children.
I’m not sure which version of the Bible you are quoting, but you left out one important word in the above verse. First, verses 34 and 35 are quotations. Paul is preaching on the practice of speaking in tongues. Chapter 14 is a continuation of chapter 13 (the famous chapter on love.) Paul is writing on the importance of prophesy over speaking in tongues. In verse 5 he states:
Notice he said ALL. Not just men but all. It concludes with verse 34 stating that God is not a God of confusion. Verses 34 and 35 are being quoted. This is not Paul’s belief; he is repeating what the men of the church are saying. This is apparent from the first word of the next verse. Paul writes verses 34 and 35 and then says “What?” Then he admonishes the men. In verse 39 he tells them to NOT forbid speaking in tongues.
Paul is not misogynistic. Read the verses in context and appy them to what Paul says elsewhere. We are all equal.
Galations 3: 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Source
Originally posted by Terral
“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT Adam who was deceived, but the WOMAN BEING DECEIVED, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. 1Timothy 2:11-15.
Verse 11 is addressed to women. Typically women were not given an education. Men, on the other hand, knew that when receiving instruction from a Rabbi, they were to remain quiet and submissive. This is a relationship between teacher and student. Paul is merely explaining to the women, what most men already knew; the proper behavior of a student!
Verse 12 states that women are not allowed to teach that they have authority over men or to take authority over men. This was a problem in the early church where certain cults were trying to teach their own ideas. Paul is not saying that women cannot teach. He is saying they cannot teach that they have authority over men. Remember that Paul said ALL were equal in Christ.
Verses 13 and 14 are Paul’s repudiation of false teachings. Remember that Paul is teaching the Gentiles who had a totally different view of creation. He is saying that Adam was created first. Some cults taught that man and woman were created at the same time. Paul is saying this is not true.
The popular concept at that time was that Eve deceived Adam and women were responsible for the sin of the world. Paul is again, setting the record straight. Eve was deceived, Adam chose Eve over obedience to God.
Verse 15 is easily understood if you read 1 Timothy 5: 14
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Apparently there was a cult that was that was teaching against this. Paul is simply saying that women should marry and bear children.
“But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it COME TO YOU ONLY? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:30-38.
Again (for clarity), everyone (men, women, children, etc.) here speaks in anyway they wish according to ATS rules and guidelines. My query is made in context to how each of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus will either stand or fall at the Judgment (2Cor. 5:10), because of the edification OR foolishness they perpetuate through these careful deliberations.
I’m not sure which version of the Bible you are quoting, but you left out one important word in the above verse. First, verses 34 and 35 are quotations. Paul is preaching on the practice of speaking in tongues. Chapter 14 is a continuation of chapter 13 (the famous chapter on love.) Paul is writing on the importance of prophesy over speaking in tongues. In verse 5 he states:
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Notice he said ALL. Not just men but all. It concludes with verse 34 stating that God is not a God of confusion. Verses 34 and 35 are being quoted. This is not Paul’s belief; he is repeating what the men of the church are saying. This is apparent from the first word of the next verse. Paul writes verses 34 and 35 and then says “What?” Then he admonishes the men. In verse 39 he tells them to NOT forbid speaking in tongues.
Paul is not misogynistic. Read the verses in context and appy them to what Paul says elsewhere. We are all equal.
Terral,
You said, "and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
Then, in the same post you said, "The angels incarnate among us were deceived by NOBODY in God's infinite realm, but women are those who deceived men."
Please clarify. Was "Adam not deceived"? or did a woman deceive that man?
You also said "the angels are hanging on every word I reveal of this mystery..." Surely, even you must admit that last statement is evidence of an overinflated sense of self-importance. Why do you continue to seek the validation of us ATS bums when you have the angels hanging on your every word?
Your charts are shiiiineeee but with your much speaking you have thoroughly obfuscated the issue. The "mystery" was not something that couldn't be understood; it was esoteric knowledge that the "initiated" could understand quite well. Paul said "For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God". If that is true, then the pre-trib rapture is a mystery indeed. It's not a mystery, dude, it doesn't exist. I've read 15 pages of back and forth bickering (very unchrist-like btw) with verses that thoroughly repudiate your "mystery" but you refuse to hear. He that hath an ear, let him hear. And, I guess, he that hath not an ear, let him be anathema. Good luck.
You said, "and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
Then, in the same post you said, "The angels incarnate among us were deceived by NOBODY in God's infinite realm, but women are those who deceived men."
Please clarify. Was "Adam not deceived"? or did a woman deceive that man?
You also said "the angels are hanging on every word I reveal of this mystery..." Surely, even you must admit that last statement is evidence of an overinflated sense of self-importance. Why do you continue to seek the validation of us ATS bums when you have the angels hanging on your every word?
Your charts are shiiiineeee but with your much speaking you have thoroughly obfuscated the issue. The "mystery" was not something that couldn't be understood; it was esoteric knowledge that the "initiated" could understand quite well. Paul said "For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God". If that is true, then the pre-trib rapture is a mystery indeed. It's not a mystery, dude, it doesn't exist. I've read 15 pages of back and forth bickering (very unchrist-like btw) with verses that thoroughly repudiate your "mystery" but you refuse to hear. He that hath an ear, let him hear. And, I guess, he that hath not an ear, let him be anathema. Good luck.
This is the kind of ignorance we are up against in writing on this mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) Topic. Sun Matrix continues pumping out these pitiful three and for sentence replies using NO SCRIPTURE whatsoever, as if his unsupported opinion means something. It is no understatement to say with 100 percent confidence that the typical ATS member posting on this thread is NOT qualified to be writing on this topic. Mr. Matrix here disqualifies himself by equating the “Day of the Lord” with the “wrath of God,” as if the “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10) is merely an EVENT. Peter writes on the ‘Day of the Lord’ (2Peter 3:10) topic, while insisting that one particular thing should NOT escape your notice; a point that flies over Matrix’s head like a rocket! Peter’s “Day of the Lord” statements are made in THIS CONTEXT:
I equate the Day of the Lord with wrath because that's what scripture says as I have shown.
I believe also that I posted Peter saying that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. That doesn't escape me.
For you to say that the DAY OF THE LORD is not the wrath of God is as usual unscriptural.
[edit on 28-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]Terral, please excuse me for putting your words as an external source. It won't let me correct. I hope that this problem is contained and is not occurring externally
[edit on 28-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]
darkelf makes a good point,
that Pauls' ministry was going around in asia minor & turkey,
lands populated by descendants of Chaldeans, Akkadians, Hittites, etc....
they all had their own pantheon of Gods....along with the earlier Greek
and contemporary Roman pantheons of Gods. Paul had to have a 'hook'
and he used the 'mystery' aspect of the early-Christans cult to attract
& convince & explain the new cults character...
[[It's no wonder that whenever mention was made of the upstart Christian cult,
Rome characterized it as mere superstition & a lot of Magical practices & ideaology,
fit for the slaves and mental midgets of the era...]]
~another item: i think it was Terral~
as to the statement that Gentiles had no 'Law', like the 12 tribes had....
has the poster forgotten of the 7 Noahide Laws, still in effect (but obscure)
~another point~ which is the idea of this post
whitewave said it best...There is extreme obfuscation, [& imho] and creating an almost undecipherable maze of entanglements with all these "this means that & that means this, if we understand the multiple layers of meanings, etc etc etc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
here's a simpler sample of intellectual exercise;
the 'Body-of Christ', to be caught-up/changed/raptured, are all those who died-in-Christ or are Living-in-Christ since the Jesus ministry in 32AD-till that future rapture instant
...All those to be caughtup/changed/raptured will be re-enactment of when the Jesus person himself got that same type of 'glorified body...raised uncorruptable' at his rapture
(what we know as His resurrection).
...therefore, that multitude of people at the rapture, are basically assimilated into a new entity, what scripture calls the Body-of-Christ
...Then, with that new cosmic Body-of-Christ existing in a heavenly/ cosmic reality, the 'Rule with an Iron Hand Theocracy' is able to create the Millennial Kingdom & Mansion for the soon-to-come 'Bride', all here in the physical earthly realm
this exercise understands that just as the Jesus ministry went thru the Sorrows, The Passion & Death as a requirement for getting the new Glorified Body.
So too will the multitude that previously died-in-Christ over the past 2 millenium,
and those that remain who are living-in-Christ will suffer the great tribulation, and be around as the bowls & vials are poured out on humanity...before they can get their own Glorified Body at the 'Change'-'Caught Up'-'Rapture' event @ 7th Trumpet
[edit on 28-10-2006 by St Udio]
that Pauls' ministry was going around in asia minor & turkey,
lands populated by descendants of Chaldeans, Akkadians, Hittites, etc....
they all had their own pantheon of Gods....along with the earlier Greek
and contemporary Roman pantheons of Gods. Paul had to have a 'hook'
and he used the 'mystery' aspect of the early-Christans cult to attract
& convince & explain the new cults character...
[[It's no wonder that whenever mention was made of the upstart Christian cult,
Rome characterized it as mere superstition & a lot of Magical practices & ideaology,
fit for the slaves and mental midgets of the era...]]
~another item: i think it was Terral~
as to the statement that Gentiles had no 'Law', like the 12 tribes had....
has the poster forgotten of the 7 Noahide Laws, still in effect (but obscure)
~another point~ which is the idea of this post
whitewave said it best...There is extreme obfuscation, [& imho] and creating an almost undecipherable maze of entanglements with all these "this means that & that means this, if we understand the multiple layers of meanings, etc etc etc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
here's a simpler sample of intellectual exercise;
the 'Body-of Christ', to be caught-up/changed/raptured, are all those who died-in-Christ or are Living-in-Christ since the Jesus ministry in 32AD-till that future rapture instant
...All those to be caughtup/changed/raptured will be re-enactment of when the Jesus person himself got that same type of 'glorified body...raised uncorruptable' at his rapture
(what we know as His resurrection).
...therefore, that multitude of people at the rapture, are basically assimilated into a new entity, what scripture calls the Body-of-Christ
...Then, with that new cosmic Body-of-Christ existing in a heavenly/ cosmic reality, the 'Rule with an Iron Hand Theocracy' is able to create the Millennial Kingdom & Mansion for the soon-to-come 'Bride', all here in the physical earthly realm
this exercise understands that just as the Jesus ministry went thru the Sorrows, The Passion & Death as a requirement for getting the new Glorified Body.
So too will the multitude that previously died-in-Christ over the past 2 millenium,
and those that remain who are living-in-Christ will suffer the great tribulation, and be around as the bowls & vials are poured out on humanity...before they can get their own Glorified Body at the 'Change'-'Caught Up'-'Rapture' event @ 7th Trumpet
[edit on 28-10-2006 by St Udio]
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