The Rapture Conspiracy Explained

Originally posted by Terral
This is why you are supposed to “Ignore” the scoffers with no other objective here than to throw mud in the air.

WRONG. Our objectives are to debunk conspiracy or confirm it. Your rapture myth timeline is what has an agenda .. an agenda that doesn't fit with the theme of this site. On a side note .. it's demonic.

The scoffers here represent the little bad guy trying desperately to draw your attention away from the subject matter being presented.

WRONG. We gave people the truth .. there is no rapture. And it definately fits with the subject of this thread.

If you allow them to turn your head away from ‘the truth’ of my testimony, then you are not worthy to receive it.

Oh yes .. calling all cultists ... don't look at the facts because it might sway you away from the truth of the matter that there is NO RAPTURE.

'Not worthy' if you read the facts ... CULT words if I ever heard them.

Those moved by the little devils on their shoulders will witness the scourging spectacle by Flyer, WuXia, Sun and the others to say, “Look at him now!” Heh . . . let them mock all they like and be like the sheep before the shearers

Watch out Terral .. you are judging. Judge not lest ye be judged. And frankly, considering that you are trying to lead people into a cult that will break their faith in times of tribulation, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes on judgement day.

If you want to silence the little devil and get the very most from this thread, then place every worthless slave on ‘Ignore’ that I do.

So Valhall and I are 'worthless slaves'??? Because we have the facts and the truth that people need to know in order to be safe from your cult?

Seriously .. get some help.

edited to fix quote


[edit on 9/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hi Sparky, Sun Matrix (mentioned):

This thread currently has every characteristic of a ship trying to right itself and set the desired course.

Sparky >> With regard to your use of the word "Mystery" , Mystery Church....ect. You might want to consider that Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words confirms that in most cases “sacred secret” is a more appropriate rendering than “mystery.” [snip; Vines’ “musterion” already quoted; preaching to the choir]

We disagree. While ‘sacred secret’ accurately describes the Greek term “musterion” (#3466), this would represent a ‘transliteration’ of the word. You can simply look at the term and see “mystery” without any difficulty.

Sparky >> In the ordinary sense a mystery implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are ‘made known,’ ‘manifested,’ ‘revealed,’ ‘preached,’ ‘understand,’ ‘dispensation.’”

Yes sir. This is why MANY of the scoffers here simply cannot ‘see’ our Mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). You can quote the verses to them all day long and they will simply ignore you. According to them these verses teach NOTHING. In fact, you and I debating the topic is part of a “Grand Conspiracy” of those with an “Agenda.” Heh . . . Now THAT is truly funny. But, remember our Adam and Eve discussion? There are many applications of ‘the mystery’ in that thread also, which ‘you’ cannot yet visualize. That is how anything related to “the mystery” works. However, if God allows Sparky to see certain aspects of His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6+7) by Divine Revelation, then expect me to say “That does not exist!” You will still be required to sow the seeds, so someone else can water AND only then God will cause the growth. 1Cor. 3:6-7. Those are not mere words in your Bible, but they represent ‘the truth’ on how God teaches His children while others are completely oblivious to what Peter calls “these things” (2Pet. 3:14-16); according to the “wisdom given him” (Paul).

Sparky >> This explanation highlights a major difference between the mysterious religious groups that flourished in the first century and the newly formed Christian congregation.

Paul is describing “musterion,” according to the ‘true’ Greek definition used above, as he is applying it to God’s Hidden Wisdom. What your ‘mysterious religious groups’ might teach is TOTALLY beyond the scope of Scripture. Let’s not bring a new baby in with your dirty bathwater.

Whereas those initiated into secret cults were often bound by a vow of silence to guard religious teachings, Christians were never put under such a restriction. It is true that the apostle Paul spoke of “God’s wisdom in a sacred secret,” calling it “hidden wisdom,” that is, hidden from “the rulers of this system of things.” It is not hidden from Christians to whom it had been revealed through God’s spirit so that they might make it public.—1 Corinthians 2:7-12; compare Proverbs 1:20.

While I appreciate your intention to elevate my understanding of the Greek term “musterion,” I have been using the true definition for most of my adult life and certainly know the difference. You are hitting all around the substance of the truth of why so many ATS members simply cannot see our Mystery Rapture and why we should not hold it against them.

Thank you again for staying on the topic. I promise to write on that Adam and Eve thread again when time permits. Hopefully you and Sun Matrix will stay on the topic without all the Terral, Terral, Terral chatter.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Hi Sparky, Sun Matrix (mentioned):

This thread currently has every characteristic of a ship trying to right itself and set the desired course.

Sparky >> With regard to your use of the word "Mystery" , Mystery Church....ect. You might want to consider that Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words confirms that in most cases “sacred secret” is a more appropriate rendering than “mystery.” [snip; Vines’ “musterion” already quoted; preaching to the choir]

We disagree. While ‘sacred secret’ accurately describes the Greek term “musterion” (#3466), this would represent a ‘transliteration’ of the word. You can simply look at the term and see “mystery” without any difficulty.

SO you object to a transliteration so that the real meaning is clear to modern day readers, yet you have no problem using the word "rapture" when that word is not even found at all in the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Interesting.

Here’s my contribution of why there is no pre-trib rapture ‘the truth’ on ‘this’ topic.
OP, you need not perform in response to this post, as you will not have anything relevant to say regarding my belief (and many others) on the “NO” Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the elect.

Thank goodness God didn’t leave us ignorant to the number of Trumpets that will sound. There are 7 trumpets.

Revelations 8: 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

KJV

This scripture is very self-explanatory. It’s the handwriting on the wall. When does it say?

1 Corinthians 15: 51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

KJV
Those that are living, will not prevent them that are dead (asleep) The dead rise first, the living are second. The reference to those which are alive and remain, does not imply there was a secret 1st rapture anywhere! In fact this very scripture, is very telling in the fact that this event is no secret!! It happens with Shout! With the Voice of the archangel! With the Trump of God! This is not a secret, quiet, thief in the night event. The meaning of the thief in the night is only meant to mean we will not know when it will occur until it is upon us. That’s the only secret in the event, not knowing the day or hour.

1 Thess 4: 13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

KJV
Not knowing the day or hour: More proof.

Matthew 24: 48: But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49: And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50: The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Here’s more proof that this is not a secret snatching away. As some would have you believe. This is a loud noisy event that all nations of the world will see and hear.

Matthew 24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV
Then there is also this scripture where Christ prays to his Father not to take them out of this world!

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou keep them from the evil.

KJV
All bolded scripture was my own emphasis to high light specific words that are pertinent, to the false pre-tribulation rapture theory.

Originally posted by Terral
Hi Sparky, Sun Matrix (mentioned):


Yes sir. This is why MANY of the scoffers here simply cannot ‘see’ our Mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). ..... You are hitting all around the substance of the truth of why so many ATS members simply cannot see our Mystery Rapture and why we should not hold it against them.

Just for the record. you used the expression "our Mystery" & "our Mystery Rapture"
in your reply above. I must make it clear that I do not adhere to your view of the Rapture. Perhaps you were referring to others you share your views. I am not offended, I just want to make it clear where I stand on this issue.

The following scriptures make it clear to me that all must face death before gaining a heavenly reward
Rom. 6:3-5, RS: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”

What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: “Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

So death comes before one receives that spiritual bodyaccording to this scripture.
I'm curious, do you attend a church that teaches this particular concept of the Rapture? How many others do you know of that accept your explanations? Is this of your own originality or were you taught this by others. If so, I am interested to know who they were. This type of background information is I believe non invasive. I hope you are willing to share it with us.
Thanks


[edit on 28-9-2006 by Sparky63]

Hi Sparky:

Originally posted by Terral >> The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles.

Sparky’s Reply >> You keep referring to the first century Congregation as the Mystery Church. And you quote Eph 5:32. Yet this scripture does not identify the Cong as such.

Sparky’s Quote >> Eph 5:32 " This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church" (american Standard Version)[snip Wycliffe]

Sparky’s Commentary >> The mystery, sacrament or Sacred secret is to be understood by the Church or Congregation. I know of no instance where the bible refers to the Cong. as the Mystery Church or Mystery Congregation.

This is a very good point that requires clarifying statements. Paul never uses the phrase “Mystery Rapture” either, but the ‘mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) nature of that revelation appears in 1Cor. 15:51 (‘Behold, I tell you a mystery’); which then requires us to relate that to 1Thes. 4:17 (‘caugh up’ = Harpazo #726). Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message is never called the “Mystery Gospel” either, but Scripture reveals that fact, saying,

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past . . .”. Romans 16:25.

“. . . and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel . . .”. Ephesians 6:19.

Note carefully Paul’s use of the phrase that Vines uses in the definition you cited, “which has been kept secret for long ages past, but NOW is manifested . . .”. The key we are looking for here is in Paul’s phrase “according to the revelation of the mystery,” which makes the connection between “the mystery” Paul says was “made known TO ME” and “my gospel.” If you currently do not understand the differences between the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, etc.) and Paul’s “my gospel” for us today, then please study this OP ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). The ‘mystery gospel’ is Paul’s gospel #2 through which our current mystery church is being gathered, which Paul connects to “the mystery” in Ephesians 5:32. To say this ‘sacred secret is to be understood by the church’ is a VAST understatement. Paul just gave you three aspects of ‘the mystery’ beginning with Ephesians 5:22. Many are confused into believing our ‘hidden until now manifested’ church is the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ, because of Paul’s references to the husband and wife throughout his Ephesians 5 teaching. However, Paul is actually teaching that the “husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is also the head of the Church” (Eph. 5:23).

I generally begin my first three threads on every Bible Board with the Gospel OP, then the Church OP, but for the ATS Board I found no real “conspiracy” in the “Church” topic; thus, Gospel, Trinity, Rapture. However, I can send you to another site where the “Two Churches” topic has been debated. Please go there now to understand the directly ‘opposing’ doctrinal precepts for the kingdom (#1) church and the grace (#2) church of Paul: www.levitt.com...

“Hypothesis at the top >> This thread is dedicated to Debate over the differences between the Kingdom Bride Church (Matt. 16:16-19) AND Paul’s Grace Body (Eph. 5:30) Mystery church (Eph. 5:32). My hypothesis and interpretations are based upon the conclusions that Peter, John and James are heads of the Jewish dominant Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) and Paul is the steward over the members of the Gentile dominant ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) under the ‘dispensation of God’s grace.’ Eph. 3:2.”

Common Bible sense tells us that anyone called to God through a gospel that is “according to the revelation of the mystery” becomes a member of the ‘assembly’ being called. Paul connects the dots in his letter to the Colossians, which parallels the third chapter of Ephesians, saying,

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of this church I was made a minister according to the dispensation [Eph. 3:2] from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery [Eph. 3:3] which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Colossians 1:24-27

The reason we can call our Rapture the “Mystery Rapture” is not because God choose to use that phrase in Scripture. That would be kind of foolish, since this is part of “God’s Hidden Wisdom” reserved for those illuminated by His Spirit. I do use that phrase, because Paul himself has made the connection for me; just like he does with “His Body” Church, his 'dispensation' and the “mystery among the Gentiles" above. Common sense should also be telling us that any ‘called out assembly’ called through a gospel that is “according to the revelation of the mystery” is also “according to the revelation of the mystery” itself. After all, if the OT prophets were not given to see Paul, our gospel or our mystery translation to immortality, then they OBVIOUSLY did not see the mystery ‘church’ itself.

The simple truth is that OT prophesy sees Christ having a 'bride' (John 3:29 = see Hosea 2:19+20) and a "kingdom of priests" (Exodus 19:6 = 1Pet. 2:9). They saw John the Baptist (Isa. 40:3) and the Lord following him (Mal. 3:1) to His Temple. However, none of them were given to see that Christ would 'also' have a Gentile dominant "body." Peter and the bride is joined to Christ here (Rev. 19:5-10), but you and I are "IN" Him even now (Eph. 2:6+7, Gal. 3:27) with lives hidden with Christ "IN" God. Col. 3:1-3. Reason these things out for yourself and I believe you will begin to see that our current 'body of Christ' church is the 'mystery church' of the Pauline Epistles.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by jensouth31


Then there is also this scripture where Christ prays to his Father not to take them out of this world!

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou keep them from the evil.

KJV

Jen, I would like to comment on this scripture if I might.

Could it be possible that Jesus knows that there will be an event that will take people out of the world?

Could Jesus simply be saying that he is not asking God to rapture these he is merely saying keep them from evil.

If they are raptured, who will spread the message?

Just something to think about.

Originally posted by jensouth31

Thank goodness God didn’t leave us ignorant to the number of Trumpets that will sound. There are 7 trumpets.

And to wrap up that fine dissertation by jensouth. Let's drive a stake in the relative position along the tribulation timeline for when that seventh (last) trumpet sounds.

The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

- Revelation 11: 15-18

That's no earlier than mid-tribulation...and possibly even later than that.

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

- I Timothy 1:3-4

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

- 2 Peter 2:1-3

Hi Jensouth31:

Nice hat. : 0 )

Here’s my contribution of why there is no pre-trib rapture ‘the truth’ on ‘this’ topic. OP, you need not perform in response to this post, as you will not have anything relevant to say regarding my belief (and many others) on the “NO” Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the elect.

Well. That was certainly clear a mud. My interpretation of Paul’s Rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17) has nothing at all to do with any “Tribulation.” Therefore, please do not assume that I am a “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” MYTHOLOGIST. Our Rapture has nothing whatsoever to do with anything prophesied in Matthew 24.

Jen >> Thank goodness God didn’t leave us ignorant to the number of Trumpets that will sound. There are 7 trumpets.

Jen’s Quote >> Revelations 8: 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Jen’s Commentary >> This scripture is very self-explanatory. It’s the handwriting on the wall. When does it say?

Please forgive, but if these things were that cut and dry, then there would be no need for this Debate. Your very first problem comes with trying to connect Paul’s “mystery” (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to any event in Revelation. This prophetic book contains the events transpiring “DURING” the “1000 Years” (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2). Paul says our ‘gathering’ (1Thes. 4:17) takes place when the Day of the Lord is “at hand.” 2Thessalonians 2:2. The ‘trumpet’ heard ‘behind’ John (Rev. 1:10*) STARTED the “Lord’s Day*” (= Day of the Lord) in which John is standing in Revelation 1! THAT truth is what forces our ‘trumpet’ (1Cor. 15:52, 1Thes. 4:16) to be the one heard ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10. That is the ‘last trumpet’ (1Cor. 15:52) to sound for those reading Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians. You are not reading Paul’s words in the true context through which they were written OR through which the Corinthians were hearing him. The Book of Revelation was not even written yet and you are ‘interpreting’ the 7th trumpet to be the ‘last trumpet’ of Paul’s descriptions, when in reality that happens almost 1000 years later very near the ‘end of the age.’

Jen’s Quote >> 1 Corinthians 15: 51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jen’s commentary >> Those that are living, will not prevent them that are dead (asleep) The dead rise first, the living are second. The reference to those which are alive and remain, does not imply there was a secret 1st rapture anywhere!

Nobody is teaching that doctrine here. The dead in Christ are simply raised first, so those who remain on the earth meet them in the air as part of the same “Rapture” of 1Thes. 4:17. This marks the ‘end’ of the dispensation of God’s grace on this earth, as every “Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher” (Eph. 4:11) is ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) out of here. You are trying to marry Paul’s teaching on how the “Day of the Lord” BEGINS with John’s revelations on how the same 1000 Years ENDS.

Jen >> In fact this very scripture, is very telling in the fact that this event is no secret!! It happens with Shout! With the Voice of the archangel! With the Trump of God! This is not a secret, quiet, thief in the night event. The meaning of the thief in the night is only meant to mean we will not know when it will occur until it is upon us. That’s the only secret in the event, not knowing the day or hour.[snip]

Of course the event is no secret in the day it takes place. You are totally missing the point of what makes any doctrine “according to the revelation of the mystery.” Romans 16:25. Please try to wrap yourself around this concept: God gave one man a body of knowledge and wisdom that Peter calls the “wisdom given him” that men and women right here today are mishandling and distorting “to their own destruction.” 2Peter 3:14-16. God decides which teachings are part of “the mystery,” because these things remained “hidden IN GOD,” (Eph. 3:9) until revealed through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Our Rapture is part of the mystery, because God says so through Paul, saying,

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed . . .”. 1Cor. 15:51.

Paul himself is saying this body of knowledge is part of the ‘wisdom given him’ that nobody else was given to see BUT PAUL. If this event was seen by the OT Prophets, then Paul had every opportunity to say, “As it is written . . .,” which he CANNOT do for ‘any’ teaching derived from the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). By the true definition of all the terms involved, nothing included in Paul’s “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3) can be part of Old Testament “Prophecy.” Do you understand why? Because, nothing kept secret and “hidden IN God” can also be given to the OT prophets. God purposely withheld every aspect of the mystery from the generations, because if anyone knew then Satan would know and never “crucified the Lord of glory.” 1Cor. 2:8. God had to make Satan believe the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc.) was the “only gospel,” so Satan would stop the Kingdom by KILLING HIS SON. If God told the OT Prophets the entire plan, then Satan would have known and simply laughed at God saying “Nice try!”. Revelation reads with Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah, because all of them can see into the 1000 Years that Satan is chained in the pit for the “Day of the Lord.” However, that means Paul’s ‘last trumpet’ MUST sound off ‘behind’ John, as this ‘mystery time’ of Scripture comes to an END.

Jen >> Here’s more proof that this is not a secret snatching away. As some would have you believe. This is a loud noisy event that all nations of the world will see and hear. (Matt. 24:30+31)

Jen’s Commentary >> Then there is also this scripture where Christ prays to his Father not to take them out of this world! [John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou keep them from the evil.] All bolded scripture was my own emphasis to high light specific words that are pertinent, to the false pre-tribulation rapture theory.

Matthew 24 is connected directly to the ‘end of the age’ by the disciple’s question (Matt. 24:3) and Daniel (Matt. 24:15 = Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13*). My hypothesis states that:

From OP >> The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles. The common error of Bible Commentators today is they mix the events of ‘our’ mystery Rapture with Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” detailing things taking place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+).

In other words, you are guilty of doing the same exact thing Flyer accuses Darby of doing somewhere back in the 1800’s if memory serves. Christ is teaching His disciples concerning “prophetic” events that OT prophets like Daniel (Matt. 24:15) WERE given to see. That simple fact tells you this information (Matt. 24) cannot be among the things “hidden in God” (Eph. 3:9) to become part of the “wisdom given him” (Paul) that YOU are distorting (2Pet. 3:14-16) to the detriment of the readers of this thread. Your version of ‘our’ mystery rapture is very common among the Denominations on the ‘wide road’ to destruction. Matt. 7:13-14. Seek the narrow path to life. : 0 )

GL seeing it,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Valhall

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

- I Timothy 1:3-4

Valhall

These myths and endless genealogies are not referring to the rapture they are referring to the Myths that come from Babylon. Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz become countless genealogies that spread across the world in the form of the sun god instead of the Son of God. They become Osiris, Isis and Horus in Egypt.
The greeks know Osiris as Zues and Horus as Hercules the savior of the world. etc. etc. etc. etc.

These are the myths and genealogies that are being referred to.

9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed 10 and called out, "Stand up on your feet!" At that, the man jumped up and began to walk. 11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them

The myths being referred to come from Babylon. Tammuz becomes the Savior. Horus is Tammuz, he becomes the savior. Hercules becomes the savior. These are the fables and myths that are being referred to, not the rapture.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Hi Sparky:

Thank you for writing on the Rapture Conspiracy Thread.

Sparky >> SO you object to a transliteration so that the real meaning is clear to modern day readers, yet you have no problem using the word "rapture" when that word is not even found at all in the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Interesting.

The English word “Rapture” does appear in the Greek Manuscripts as “Harpazo” (#726) used right here in 1Thessalonians 4:17 (“caught up”). However, do you really think our readers would understand if I ran around teaching the Harpazo Hemon Ekklesia? We should be able to agree that nobody would find that in the search engines. In any case, I appreciate the fact that you attacked something I did say rather than obsessing on my person. ; 0 )

The term “Bible” is truly not in Scripture, but everyone knows what that means.

Thanks again,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Valhall

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

- 2 Peter 2:1-3

Valhall,

Though it fits here, I don't believe that this verse is referring to the rapture either.

The destructive heresies talked about are not the rapture but they are instead the belief that Jesus is not God.

These are the Gnostic teachings. This verse fits here because Terral is a Gnostic.

And Terral is just not any old Gnostic, he is a Gnostic that believes that most Gnostics are wrong. Most Gsostics follow the teachings of Zoroaster and the god they serve is Ahura Mazda.

But Terrals god is not Ahura Mazda because he believes that the other Gnostics are wrong.

Care to name that god now Terral?

Hi Sun Matrix,

I just don't believe there are any more chances after the Lord returns. If there were, then it could go on forever, and ever. I believe the message will have been spread to all the Nations, and to all the Peoples of the earth when the Lord returns. There will be people still cursing, and blaspheming God ever during the wrath, (the 7 vials.)

Revelations 14:6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16: And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Then following along, another angel (v.17) having another sharp sickle, reaps the wicked.

Revelations14:17: And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18: And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19: And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20: And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And in Revelations 16, the vials are poured out on those that worshipped the beast, and hi image.

Revelations 16: Revelations 16:1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

And they repented not, (STILL!!) and blasphemed God!

Revelations 16: 8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

And so on and so forth. So as I read and understand, the reaping takes place one in front of the other. Also, remember the 10 virgins? The five foolish ones who had no oil to trim their lamps, the Lord (bridegroom) came while they were getting oil…and they knocked on the door when they returned…and he said “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” Matthew 25:1-13 (Parable of the ten virgins) Why did he know them not? It was because they were not ready when he came for them…and they didn’t get a second chance. So anyway, I hope that helps with why I don’t believe in a second chance. There weren’t any 2nd chances in Noah’s day for the wicked…nor in Sodom & Gomorrah, only the righteous were saved….and the numbers were grim, if you recall.


Edit**
Fixing Bold quote

[edit on 9/28/2006 by jensouth31]

Hi Sparky:

First allow me to congratulate you on the good points you are raising; nice work.

Sparky >> Just for the record. you used the expression "our Mystery" & "our Mystery Rapture" in your reply above. I must make it clear that I do not adhere to your view of the Rapture. Perhaps you were referring to others you share your views. I am not offended; I just want to make it clear where I stand on this issue.

No problem at all. Please understand my references to “our mystery church” are made to contrast those called to God through Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25) VERSUS the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) saved through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23 = Peter, John, James, etc.). If I were talking about ‘our’ Kingdom Church, then we would be living ‘during’ the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” and I would be contrasting ‘our’ kingdom church with Paul’s already Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) mystery church. BTW, if you felt included in my “our” comments, then that makes you my brother ‘IN’ Christ Jesus. Brothers are allowed to disagree over the timing of the Rapture and still be part of the same “one body” (Eph. 4:4) “His body” Church (Col. 1:24).

Sparky >> The following scriptures make it clear to me that all must face death before gaining a heavenly reward

Quote >> Rom. 6:3-5, RS: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”

Sparky Commentary >> What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.

Two points come to my mind right away that blows your theory out of the water.

1. “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. THEN we who ARE ALIVE and remain will be caught up [“Harpazo” (#726)] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thes. 4:16+17.

Do you see how God’s Word speaks against your hypothesis AND interpretation? If your assertion were fact, then there could be nobody to represent “we who ARE ALIVE and remain.” The second two verses together speak to your use of Scripture above and solves a riddle confronting many professing Christians:

2. "I have been crucified WITH Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me[Col. 1:27]; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Galatians 2:20.

3. “Therefore IF you have been raised up WITH Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” Col. 3:1-3.

The key you are seeking today is that everyone hearing (Rom. 10:17) and believing (Eph. 1:13+14) our mystery gospel is baptized into Christ’s body on the cross at Calvary 2000 years ago to become an active participant in “His” death, burial AND resurrection. Therefore, your assumption above is 100 percent correct, because every ‘believer’ has already been crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:20) AND also raised up with Him to be seated in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). We have already fulfilled the requirement of Hebrews, saying,

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment . . .”. Hebrews 9:27.

God has already placed our sin upon Christ who knew no sin (2Cor. 5:21) and we sit in the lofty heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus as a finished product even now! The reason we are called “ambassadors for Christ” (2Cor. 5:20) is because our “citizenship is in heaven” (Phil. 3:20) right this moment as we speak. This earth and this ATS Board today is the strange land to where God has sent us, beyond the boundaries of the “Kingdom of His Beloved Son” (Col. 1:13).

Sparky Quotes >> 1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: “Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

Sparky Commentary >> So death comes before one receives that spiritual body according to this scripture.

Hey guys: Writing a concluding sentence is great, but only if that is prefaced with a paragraph or two of Scripture supported commentary. Remember there are over 2000 Denominations of ‘professing’ Christians in the USA alone and many of them ‘interpret’ these same verses very differently. We cannot assume others see things in the way we do apart from laying things out through thoughtful explanations.

Sparky >> I'm curious, do you attend a church that teaches this particular concept of the Rapture? How many others do you know of that accept your explanations?

Please forgive if I follow the strict guidelines laid down by our very observant and gracious Moderators. I would be throwing fuel on a smoldering fire by handing out any personal information at this juncture in the debate. They will be much less likely to lend assistance in the future if I am perceived as “asking for it.” ; 0 )

Sparky >> Is this of your own originality or were you taught this by others. If so, I am interested to know who they were. This type of background information is I believe non invasive. I hope you are willing to share it with us.

The Holy Spirit led me into these things throughout years of study. Your Bible is not two testaments at all; it is ‘three witnesses’ (1John 5:7+8) testifying through a spirit (OT) body (water = Kingdom NT) and soul (blood =Pauline Epistles). These concepts churned around inside for years, before the seeds matured into the garden you perceive today. The majority of ATS members appear to have misjudged my intentions for coming here, as if I am here to convert you guys to Terralism. Heh . . . No sir.

My hypotheses and interpretations are laid bare before you all, so that someone among you will step up to the plate and show the old man a thing or two. If the Spirit of God has indeed led me astray, then maybe someone here will show me the Light. Occasionally what appears to be the very least among members will stand up and say something that answers questions I never even thought to ask, or someone will say something using a few sentences that I struggle explaining in a hundred pages.

The keys to understanding my diagrams is that everything is color coded in gold (yellow) for spirit witnesses, blue for water witnesses and red for blood witnesses. Also, I am not writing about things learned from men, but about what God has given me to see through His Word. There are ten thousand things I would love to share, but if we are going to have this much trouble debating something as simple as the Rapture, then the combined membership here is simply not ready. Your children are ready to begin discussions on the mature things in life in the day they are able to formulate the right ‘questions.’ Therefore, these three threads must suffice, until the representative leaders among you begin recognizing the keys that truly lead to spiritual maturity (1Cor. 2:6) in Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus right this moment,

Terral

Originally posted by jensouth31
It was because they were not ready when he came for them…and they didn’t get a second chance. So anyway, I hope that helps with why I don’t believe in a second chance. There weren’t any 2nd chances in Noah’s day for the wicked…nor in Sodom & Gomorrah, only the righteous were saved….and the numbers were grim, if you recall.

Hi Jen,

In the two examples given God provided a way of escape for the righteous.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He will provide a way of escape for the righteous.

You also mentioned the harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree. There are two harvests.

~impressed~




Now Revelation is mostly a 'vision' but there's gotta be some factual guidelines in it.

If the reader will go to Revelation Chapter 7, there's an interesting revelation given

in verses 1-8,
there's a explaination of the 'sealing of the 144,000'
which in another part of the book, tells us that the 'sealing' occurs at Mid-Point of the final week
( which has been interpeted as 7 years) of the great tribulation

then, in dealing with the 'Rapture', we pick up with verse #9......

7:9

After this I beheld, and, Lo, a great multitude, which no man could number,
of all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues, stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands.

source: blue letter bible

I emphasized After this, to show it immediately follows the sealing of the 144,000, in the final half of the tribulation week, i we agree there is a sequence of events as revealed in the book of Revelation
~follow along if you want...if only because verses 10-13 add more info on the throne scene and the entities in the heavenly throne & temple in the 'vision'


Then we read, in answering the vision of the multitude

7:13

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.
And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

~~my reasoning tells me the following:

this great multitude are from the time period on earth known as the Great Tribulation, they followed the Great Witnessing by the end-time 144,000....
this multitude were 'Ransomed' and another place 'Redeemed' from the earth
('Ransomed' could mean martyred, beheaded, or 'Raptured',
in any case the 'great multitude' were faithful in the Christ as Savior theology).

also, this 'great multitude', are described as surrounding Gods Throne,
and their sole purpose is to praise & sing & give glory, day and night .... forever !

(go ahead & read the remaining verses 15-16-17, if you've clicked the link above)

Now that doesn't sound like a heavenly reward to me, an eternal paradise and/or Reward , Indeed!
it also doesn't sound like raptured or saved souls from the era of the great tribulation have any 'free-will' over or up there around the throne,

Hi St Udio:

Thank you for writing on the Rapture Conspiracy Thread.

St. Udio >> Now Revelation is mostly a 'vision' but there's gotta be some factual guidelines in it . . .

Our Rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17, 1Cor. 15:51-53) has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in Revelation, unless you make the connections between the ‘last trumpet’ (1Cor. 15:52), the trumpet of 1Thes. 4:16 and the one heard behind John in Rev. 1:10. We are already “IN” Christ as the members of His body described in Revelation 1:10-19. We are “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) right from the start of Revelation. I have little idea how your reply addresses anything from the Opening Post or relates to anything to do with this debate.

Thank you again for writing. GL,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral