The Rapture Conspiracy Explained

Originally posted by dbrandt
In Rev. ch. 4 a door in heaven is opened(indicating the rapture has occurred).

Well here's alittle somethin to make things interesting.

Why then in chapter five, verse three, Jesus is nowhere to be found in heaven nor in earth nor under the earth? That would mean the church was taken before Christ? In ch5v5 is when the lamb shows up in heaven and verse 7 is where he takes the book from the father's right hand on the throne and assumes his seat that the right hand of the father. Why in 4v6 was there a empty sea of glass surrounding the throne of the father if the bride was there? There was no groom let alone a bride at this point.

In ch7v9 is where there is a great multitude before the throne. If one takes the book for what it's worth and throws all previous brain sanitation out the window, they will see that those four horses have been roaming around since our Lord ascended to heaven, or somewhere there about. The fifth seal was cracked somewhere along in there too.

The only thing we are lacking in the present time line is the sixth seal, giving us a global earthquake so big that it'll turn the sun black and the moon red (from volcanic ash?).

During the cleanup of that, they'll never know if the bride tasted death or not. The explosive power of billions of bodies being reassembled in the twinkling of an eye will cause quite a tremor. Scientists will brush it off as some freak seismic event and that's that.

Tis a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. I imagine many unbelievers in the back of their minds say "yea if that (rapture) happens, I'll believe then." They may only get an earthquake and that in itself may be too late for them.

That's the picture painted in my mind, and it seems pretty sound.

Originally posted by Terral
Your reply was, Sparky >> “Terrel; if you want to put your trust in Sumerian mythology that is your prerogative. I'll stick with what the Bible says.” [edit on 27-9-2006 by Terral]

Terrel, this is a perfect example of what I was talking about when I noted that you were easily offended. You had stated your belief in Babylonian / Sumerian Mythology over the creation account as outlined in the Bible. Once I saw where you were coming from, I stated the above. It was not a personal attack on you, it was simply my acknowlegement that if you want to mix Babylonian/ Sumerian mythology with the scriptures, you are free to do so, but I was not inclined to do so.

I only bring this up because you took the liberty of quoting the statement I made on another thread. I was not intending to revisit it. But since you quoted me without
adding any context to the statement, I felt the need to do so.

Let me impart this to you for your consideration. If you truly feel that your interpretation has been revealed to you by God and that all others are in error, then you bear the responsibilty of teaching in the manner of Christ and the Apostles. PLease consider this scripture;

2Tim 2:24-25
" 24And the Lord's servant[d] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, " (ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION)

On a side note. You referered to Sun Matrix as my buddy, on another occasion you referred to me as his sidekick. I doubt if you meant this to be complimetary. While I have no doubt Sun is a nice guy, I would love to meet him for coffee some day, we do not know each other and probably do not agree on too many things of a religious nature. The only thing we probably agree on is that we do not agree with your view of the things discussed.

Once again I encourage you to consider the above scriptures and honestly evaluate if you have applied them. I know I have failed to do so in the past. I do feel that if everyone truly had the best interests of others at heart. there might be some constructive discussion going on.

Peace.

(Mod edit: Like I said, do not ignore our requests. We'll discuss this via U2U. --Majic)

[edit on 9/27/2006 by Majic]

Originally posted by Terral
FlyersFan:

FlyersFan >> That's right. No Rapture. No great promise. No easy out.

Your unbelief has no place on this thread at all.

Excuse me! I believe I have not met a more staunch "believer" than FlyersFan, and your lack of ability to tolerate an dissenting voice to your own interpretation is not tolerable.

I say not tolerable.

Because this thread - nay, this board - is not for you to launch your proselytizing without debate.

I agree with FlyersFan. The rapture is a bastardization of the scriptures. It is unscriptural. It is, in fact, an "easy out" to lull the masses into a position that will allow the great apostacy prophesied in the scriptures.

You need to lighten up and discuss rather than lambast. Maybe you'll learn something.

Originally posted by Terral
Greetings:

Another invention of the Denominations is represented by the pre, mid and post-tribulation Rapture interpretations by modern day theologians. The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles. The common error of Bible Commentators today is they mix the events of ‘our’ mystery Rapture with Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” detailing things taking place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+). To straighten out the mess created by the scholars of our day, we must come to realize that anything Paul attaches to “the mystery” (Ephesians 3:3, Colossians 1:26) was NOT seen by any of the Old Testament prophets. Paul makes that connection in describing these things to the Corinthians, saying,

”Behold, I tell you a mystery*; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

Paul uses this term “musterion*” (#3466) twenty times in his Epistles to describe things “hidden in God” (Ephesians 3:9) to be revealed ONLY through his ministry.
(Continued)

With regard to your use of the word "Mystery" , Mystery Church....ect. You might want to consider that Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words confirms that in most cases “sacred secret” is a more appropriate rendering than “mystery.” It says of my·ste′ri·on: “In the [Christian Greek Scriptures] it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng[lish] word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.

In the ordinary sense a mystery implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are ‘made known,’ ‘manifested,’ ‘revealed,’ ‘preached,’ ‘understand,’ ‘dispensation.’”

This explanation highlights a major difference between the mysterious religious groups that flourished in the first century and the newly formed Christian congregation. Whereas those initiated into secret cults were often bound by a vow of silence to guard religious teachings, Christians were never put under such a restriction. It is true that the apostle Paul spoke of “God’s wisdom in a sacred secret,” calling it “hidden wisdom,” that is, hidden from “the rulers of this system of things.” It is not hidden from Christians to whom it had been revealed through God’s spirit so that they might make it public.—1 Corinthians 2:7-12; compare Proverbs 1:20.

Originally posted by Terral

The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles.

You keep referring to the first century Congregation as the Mystery Church. And you quote Eph 5:32. Yet this scripture does not identify the Cong as such.

Eph 5:32 " This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church" (american Standard Version)

32 This sacrament is great; yea, I say in Christ, and in the church. (Wycliffe New Testament)

The mystery, sacrament or Sacred secret is to be understood by the Church or Congregation. I know of no instance where the bible refers to the Cong. as the Mystery Church or Mystery Congregation.

You use this expression quite frequently. Perhaps I missed it in my studies. Can you please identify a scripture where this particular syntax is used.
Thank you.

Originally posted by Terral
The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles. Paul uses this term “musterion*” (#3466) twenty times in his Epistles to describe things “hidden in God” (Ephesians 3:9) to be revealed ONLY through his ministry. Hebrews, Peter, John and James never use the term in any Epistle bearing their names. Paul writes,

”For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles [that’s us] -- if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of God's grace which was given TO me FOR you; that by revelation there was made known TO ME the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.” Ephesians 3:1-3.

Terrel
From reading only those 3 verses one might conclude that Only Paul was given this understanding. And this seems to be what you are stating. Yet verse 5 clearly shows that this was revealed to others too.
Eph 3:5
5 which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; (American Standard Version)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (King James Version)

What is this Sacred Secret or Mystery you refered to when you referenced Eph 3:1 -3 ? Vs 6 tells us
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (King James Version)

Who else was this revealed to? Peter had witnessed first hand that Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Roman Army Officer Cornelius. Cornelius was the firstfruits of the uncircumcised non-Jews to become a Christian, showing that by this time it was not necessary for Gentiles to become Jewish proselytes like the Ethiopian eunuch before being accepted into the Christian congregation.

“For a certainty,” Peter exclaimed on that historic occasion, “I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Ac 10:34, 35) As Peter was the first to open up The Way to the Jews at Pentecost, so in this instance he was the first to bring good news of salvation to the uncircumcised Gentiles. James also agreed that it was “the first time” that God turned his attention to “the nations.”—Ac 15:7, 14.

I humbly sumbit this this for your thoughtful consideration.
Peace


[edit on 27-9-2006 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by Terral
To straighten out the mess created by the scholars of our day, we must come to realize that anything Paul attaches to “the mystery” (Ephesians 3:3, Colossians 1:26) was NOT seen by any of the Old Testament prophets. Paul makes that connection in describing these things to the Corinthians, saying,

The Mystery or Sacred Secret Paul was referring to in Eph 3:3 is clearly identified when you get to verse 6. This verse clearly shows that now the way was opened for Gentiles, Non Jews, people of the nations, to be accepted as members of Christs congregation. This was evident when the the 11 apostles, other older men of the Jerusalem congregation and Paul and Barnabas, elders from the Antioch congregation gathered in Jerusalem to discuss the controversy that had developed when some converts from among the Jews have been insisting that people of the nations must be circumcised and must observe the Law of Moses in order to be saved.

The apostle Peter bears witness to the fact that God has given holy spirit to uncircumcised people of the nations—surely powerful testimony that physical circumcision is no longer a requirement for those being saved. Barnabas and Paul add to this testimony, describing the many wonderful things that God has accomplished through their ministry to the nations.—Acts 15:7-12.

Next, James quotes the Scriptures in support of the argument that has just been presented. He explains that Amos 9:11, 12 points forward to the restoration of divine favor under the Greater David, Jesus Christ, and to Gods extending undeserved kindness to “all the nations upon whom [his] name has been called.” James sees no need to trouble converts from the nations by insisting that they be circumcised and observe all the rules embodied in the Law of Moses. However, a few things are necessary: They must abstain from idolatry, from partaking of blood in any form and from sexual immorality.—Acts 15:13-21.

So the Sacred Secret Mystery you referred to in Eph 3: 1-3 was also referenced by Amos. The Apostle James is the one who quotes him in support of accepting people of the nations.

I humbly submit that your statement above regarding Old Testament Prophets & Eph 3:1-3 is inaccurate.
I look forward to your thoughts on this.
As far as I can tell Eph 3:1-3 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

Sorry about the edits. Bad spelling, gets me every time!
[edit on 27-9-2006 by Sparky63]

[edit on 27-9-2006 by Sparky63]

[edit on 27-9-2006 by Sparky63]

[edit on 27-9-2006 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by Sparky63

Eph 3:5
5 which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; (American Standard Version)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (King James Version)

What is this Sacred Secret or Mystery you refered to when you referenced Eph 3:1 -3 ? Vs 6 tells us
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (King James Version)

I agree, the mystery is that the Gentiles are fellowheirs.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I also agree that Cornelius is the first fruits of this mystery.

Who else was this revealed to? Peter had witnessed first hand that Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Roman Army Officer Cornelius. Cornelius was the firstfruits of the uncircumcised non-Jews to become a Christian, showing that by this time it was not necessary for Gentiles to become Jewish proselytes like the Ethiopian eunuch before being accepted into the Christian congregation.

SPARKY --- Are you Pre trib, mid trib or Post trib?

Thanks.

Excuse me! I believe I have not met a more staunch "believer" than FlyersFan

I'm a genuine non-believer, and if any of you need to demonstrate the contrast between what you say and what I say, you can go back to my post around page 3, where I call "Christianity" as a whole a "false religion". Just trying to help you guys out...

Hi Dbrandt:

Originally posted by Terral >> That is quite impossible, because our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) did not even come to exist until after the start of Acts 9 with the conversion of Paul!

Dbrandt >> The church began with the first person to place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. Now that first person could have been one of the apostles (but they didn't get that Jesus came to pay for sin until after He was resurrected). Or it could have been Mary, sister of Lazarus and Martha for she did this:[snip]

Heh . . . “. . . that person could have been?” No sir. Let’s settle this once and for all right here: The ONLY gospel of the Four Gospels is the “gospel of the kingdom” where sins are forgiven through repentance, confession and water baptism. Mark 1:4+5. Jesus Christ followed John preaching the same “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23), saying,

“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand [Matt. 3:2, 4:17, 10:7]; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15.

Now, I want to ask everyone here if Jesus Christ is truly ‘preaching’ the GOSPEL OF GOD right here in Mark 1? Yes? Of Course! And yet, He will not die on the cross for ANYONE for another three years. Lean heavily upon that absolute truth and Dbrandt’s false assertion above will melt away into nothing. Are we supposed to assume that Peter and the Twelve had no sins forgiven themselves, until AFTER Christ died for sins? No sir. Christ is sending them out to preach the same “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 9:35) in Matthew 10:5-7 only “to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:6), which is Gospel #1 from my “Two Gospels” OP ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). I challenge everyone here to find just one person ‘saved’ by ‘God’s grace’ through ‘faith’ in the ‘blood’ of Jesus Christ ANYWHERE in the Four Gospels. Good Luck, because none exist! The terms “faith” and “grace” appear together in verses ONLY in the Pauline Epistles. God revealed our gospel for today (Gospel #2 from that OP above) to the Apostle Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Galatians 1:11+12), which Scripture calls the “Gospel To The UNcircumcised” Galatians 2:7. Can any of you prove Christ and the Twelve are ‘preaching’ the “Gospel To The UNCIRCUMCISED” TO “Israel only” (Matt. 10:6, 15:24) in the Four Gospels? Heh . . . Good Luck.

Perhaps some of you are beginning to gather the substance of my point here that God gathers members to the Prophetic Kingdom (Matt. 16;16-19) “Bride” (John 3:29) through the “gospel of the kingdom”. God gathers members to the Mystery Grace “Body” (Eph. 5:30 = His BODY Church = Col. 1:24) through Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message he calls “My Gospel” (Rom. 2:16, 16:25, etc.). Christ’s Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) has application ONLY to the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) Kingdom “Bride” gathered under Elijah, during the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” that BEGINS at ‘our’ mystery Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Here is your opportunity to ‘see’ these things in a proper perspective:



Your Bible is laid out exactly like the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple with the OT representing the “Holy Of Holies.” Note the “Second Veil” separating the OT from "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” Matt. 11:13. John the Baptist (spirit) was sent “From God” (John 1:6) to lead the way for God’s Son (“Christ” = blood witness in red), so the Twelve could pick up the Holy Spirit baton on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1+). Look at the name of the “Gospel of God” (Mark 1:4+5) for those three ministries that are “into the one” (1John 5:8) = “Gospel of the Kingdom.” However, God uses Acts 6+7 with the account of Steven (name = “Crown”) to signify the ‘beginning’ of the End for the “Gospel of the Kingdom” and the ‘early rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) on this earth. The Holy Spirit baton was passed from Peter’s kingdom church to Paul’s grace church in Acts 13:2, when the Holy Spirit speaks and says, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." The final mention of Peter is in Acts 15:14 as “Simeon,” as Paul and his “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) outpaces Peter’s kingdom church in this very important “dispensational shift” on display in the diagram above.

Paul’s Mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) ENDS this current “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) on this earth to BEGIN the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” shaded in blue. All of the Matthew 24 events take place 1000 Years in the FUTURE on the back side of that same 1000 year period only now about to BEGIN. In THAT DAY (1000 Years Day of the Lord) Paul’s “word of the cross” Gospel message will be the FALSE GOSPEL, because God will be gathering members to the kingdom “bride” through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 24:14).

Dbrandt >> Back to my point, the church started before the apostle Paul was saved. Also God knew the church would be started so your point isn't valid to me.

Here is the ‘abovetopsecret’ aspect of this topic flying totally over the head of the Denominations and Dbrandt: The ‘tell’ in Dbrandt’s weak hand is shouting from his use of the phrase “the church” that ‘he says’ started before Paul. Obviously ‘a church’ started before Paul, because Christ makes reference to the kingdom church in Matthew 16:16-19 (18:17+18). However, the heart and soul of Paul’s “my gospel” is that Christ died for our sins AND God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3+4). Can anyone here prove that even those numbered among Christ’s Own Disciples believed God had raised Christ from the dead?? What does Scripture say about Christ sending Mary to inform them “He has risen!” in the very last chapter of Mark?

“She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.” Mark 16:10-11.

[Continued]

There were NONE of the Disciples standing at the tomb on the ‘third day,’ even though Christ told them over (Matt. 16:21) and over (Matt. 17:23) and over again (Matt. 20:19) about God’s plan. Christ appeared to two of the disciples and sent them to inform them, but would they believe?

“After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country. They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.” Mark 16:12+13.

Are we beginning to see the futility of trying to prove that ANYONE is ‘saved’ by ‘God’s grace’ through ‘faith’ in the ‘blood’ sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Four Gospels? How can you place Paul’s “my gospel” into the mouths of Peter and John, when THEY did not believe it themselves?! They had been preaching the same ‘gospel of the kingdom’ with the forgiveness of sins by ‘water’ from the very beginning (Mark 1:4+5). Peter will continue preaching repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins even AFTER the close of the Four Gospels in Acts!

“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38.

If Christ has died for sins (1Cor. 15:3+4, Eph. 1:7), then why is Peter still preaching the same old “Gospel of the Kingdom?” God is still gathering members to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” (John 3:29) beyond Calvary and beyond Steven (Acts 6+7) and beyond Acts 13 all the way to 70 AD! Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace” for the “Gentiles” is a totally separate and brand new “dispensation” for gathering a ‘people for His name’ (Acts 15:14) called the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). Christ dying for sins is the ‘provision’ at Calvary, but God still had to reveal Paul’s Gospel itself through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Gal. 1:11+12) AFTER Paul’s conversion in Acts 9. There is no back door to be found “IN” Christ Jesus and each member MUST come through obedience to Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. Our Mystery ‘rapture’ is ONLY for those dead in Christ AND the living on this earth who truly hear (Rom. 10:17) and believe (Eph. 1:13-14) Paul’s Gospel.

In Christ Jesus through Paul’s gospel,

Terral

Hi Dbrandt:

Thank you very much for writing on the topic.

Dbrandt >> Actually we don't agree, here's why. In Rev. ch 2 &3 the church(es) are mentioned. In Rev. ch. 4 a door in heaven is opened (indicating the rapture has occurred).

Here is the problem with your interpretation: Your ‘churches’ of Revelation 1-3 are “kingdom” churches on this earth called and gathered ‘during’ the 1000 Years “Lord’s Day” beginning back in Revelation 1:10. Paul connects ‘our’ mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17) to when that “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2) or when that “Lord’s Day” BEGINS. Once again you are assuming only ‘one’ assembly of ‘called out ones’ (Ekklesia = Church) exists in the New Testament. Christ’s ‘early rains’ Kingdom (Matt. 16:16-19) church was ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4) in 70 AD. However, THEY will be raised ‘with us’ at the sound of the trumpet heard ‘behind’ John in Rev. 1:10 to START the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.” The seven church periods are described here.



Please pay careful attention, because many of you have never seen this information laid out in this manner. From left to right: The “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) ENDED upon this earth at our “Rapture” (1st Resurrection) that STARTED this “One Thousand Years “Day of the Lord.”” The seven church periods (Ephesus – Laodicea = top of diagram) for ‘that’ 1000 Years overlay the seven parables for the kingdom of heaven given in Matthew 13 (The Sower – The Dragnet = gathering). Elijah returns to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) in the days FOLLOWING our Rapture, which allows these seven church periods to begin. The entire 1000 Years takes place in Revelation 1-3, with the final “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+) events taking place in the dark blue (Rev. 4-20 = Seven Years) period. Our Mystery Church Rapture is on the far left of the diagram, and Christ’s Olivet (Matt. 24) ‘physical’ return takes place 1000 years LATER. All the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) are already “IN” the Lamb to START the “Lord’s Day” way back in Revelation 1:10-19 with the ‘trumpet’ (1Cor. 15:52, 1Thes. 4:16) heard ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10.

Dbrandt >> In that same chapter we are introduced to the "24" elders (the church now in heaven because Christ came for them).

The 24 elders represent a different dispensation entirely, which can be identified by using these diagrams:



Look all the way over to Figure 3 and stand with John viewing the “Lamb” (center of throne = Rev. 7:17) and the living creature with the “face of a man” (Rev. 4:7 = Fig. 2) among the other three (Fig. 1) in the same verse. From John’s position in heaven (Rev. 4:1) he can see straight through into the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27) where the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) join “three into the one” (1John 5:8) to create the ‘face of a man.’ The three living creatures with the face of a man (Lion, Eagle and Bullock) represent God’s Throne, as He pushed the Second Veil to also be found “IN” Christ Jesus. Therefore, from “John’s perspective,” all three thrones have the appearance of ‘one throne,’ as Figure 2 (Christ Jesus) eventually sums up (Eph. 1:9-10) all things “IN” Himself. Now, to know the true identity of the “24 Elders,” look carefully into Figure 2 and note the golden (Father) sea of glass for the “Father Elect” and the corresponding “Holy Spirit Elect” depicting the “Heavenly Authorities” (Eph. 3:10). The carry that into this diagram:



John is standing in your current position looking straight across through the Lamb, but this diagram elevates “God Who Is” (Rev. 1:8) for the convenience of visualizing these things. Peter and the ‘Early Rains Bride’ are upon the ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) ‘before the throne’ (Rev. 7:14). You and I are “IN” Christ Jesus with lives hidden “IN” God (Col. 3:1-3) AND (this is deep) members of “His Incarnation,” as the “Lamb of God.” You are truly seated “IN” Christ Jesus “IN” (Eph. 2:6) God in the Highest Heaven, with an ‘incarnation’ “IN” the Lamb ALSO. From John’s position in the diagram above (see arrow and direction) “God Who Is” is positioned directly behind the Lamb with the three living creatures appearing like this:



God Who Was (water in blue) protects God’s Throne from all things in the ‘past’ (Bullock kicks back) and God To Come (spirit in gold) protects God’s Throne from all things in the infinite future (Lion devours from in front of him). God Who Is (blood witness like the Son/Lamb) is the Eagle who sees all things in the “Here and Now,” as He uses “His” Two Witnesses (God To Come AND God Who Was) to Judge all things in all these Realms becoming “ONE.” The “twenty-four” elders appear around the Lamb (His Bride AND the Heaven’s Angels) on either side of His Throne. However, they have corresponding witnesses standing directly behind them (from John’s Perspective), as the “Heavenly Authorities” [Eph. 3:10 = like our Mods in the background : 0 ) ] watching every move all the witnesses make ‘around’ the Lamb. These ‘twenty-four’ elders will eventually become “twelve,” as God reconstitutes Creation and His Hosts (Rev. 21:1+) throughout the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7). I understand this is difficult to visualize, but stick with it and things will become easier to see with time.

Dbrandt >> Then the horrible events after the rapture begin in chapter 6. Then in chapter 7:13-17 we are introduced to another group of people, who are not the 24 elders. This is a different group, who have come out great tribulation, and they are in heaven because they have received Christ as Savior.

[Continued]

[edit on 28-9-2006 by Terral]

No sir. The different group is the “late rains” (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ gathered and tested under Elijah who came to restore all things just after our Mystery Rapture. The seven church periods are spread out over the entire 1000 years. This late rains bride is added to Peter’s early rains bride ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4) in 70 AD, as they were raised with us to START the 1000 Years. The late rains bride is martyred to find themselves upon the sea of glass, BEFORE the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:5-10) and BEFORE Christ returns with them (Rev. 19:14) on white horses.

Dbrandt >> So this is an unncountable group, larger than the "24" elders, yet still saved by Christ. This is what I'm talking about.

The ‘twenty-four’ elders are ‘representative’ of a MUCH larger assembly of hosts on either side of the Lamb AND “God Who Is” in the center (blood witness) of the throne. Why there are 24 is difficult to describe. Take Christ and place Him in the center of the throne here on the earth, then give Him the three witnesses of Peter, John and James. Then, give them three witnesses of their very own (3 + 9 = 12). However, these are only the ‘man’ (world) witnesses standing upon the ‘water’ witness “sea of glass.” On the far side of the Lamb is yet another golden sea (spirit witness) with angelic hosts representing the greater witness half of these “same disciples!”

There is a Dbrandt incarnate here on the earth as a ‘water’ witness, which is mere shadow image of his ‘greater’ and more powerful ‘spirit’ half in the heavenly places. Our mystery church (already IN the Lamb; whole and complete = 1Cor. 15:51-53 = immortality) is charged with judging the world (man = water witness half) AND the angels (angel = spirit witness half), because these ‘hosts’ are truly two parts of the same singularity expression. The ‘spirit’ angel host needs to look straight through the Lamb in the center of the throne to visualize his ‘lesser’ (like woman to man) half, as eventually all of the spirit and water witnesses are summed up “IN” the Lamb Himself via “Judgment” (by us). I hope God opens eyes here to see it. ; 0 ).

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by dbrandt
In Rev. ch. 4 a door in heaven is opened(indicating the rapture has occurred).

Well here's alittle somethin to make things interesting.

Why then in chapter five, verse three, Jesus is nowhere to be found in heaven nor in earth nor under the earth? That would mean the church was taken before Christ? In ch5v5 is when the lamb shows up in heaven and verse 7 is where he takes the book from the father's right hand on the throne and assumes his seat that the right hand of the father. Why in 4v6 was there a empty sea of glass surrounding the throne of the father if the bride was there? There was no groom let alone a bride at this point.

Wisesheep, My question to you is where is Jesus at this time?

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I want to know, Terral, what are you going to do when all of a sudden you realize you are within the Tribulation? What are you going to do if you realize that the Tribulation has begun and you didn't get your "get out of jail free card"? Even more important, assuming that there will be no "rapture" even as early as mid-tribulation, what are you going to do when you find out you've actually stuck around to have to endure the period of Jacob's trials - the Great Tribulation - the 3-1/2 years of the wrath of God?

I seriously want to read your answer on this.

Sparky, Valhall (Flyer, Dbrandt mentioned):

All the Thread Starter can ask is please obey the wishes of our gracious Mods and try to stick to the Rapture Topic. The goal of the Board Originators, Administrators and Moderators is to fill the archives with valuable information for current and future ATS members to ‘research’ through the search engines, weigh the evidence AND add any new input to views already presented. I work against the wishes of the Mods by answering ‘off-topic’ dribble having no application to the “Rapture” Topic at all. THAT is why the Board Designers gave us the U2U messaging system. There is nothing in Sparky’s or Valhall’s post about the topic, but please allow me to address them once and then ignore future ‘personal’ messages.

Sparky >> Terrel, this is a perfect example of what I was talking about when I noted that you were easily offended. You had stated your belief in Babylonian / Sumerian Mythology over the creation account as outlined in the Bible.

I did no such thing. You guys teamed up using trash talk attempting to demonize my person and interpretation on that thread and again on this one. Either write ‘on’ the Topic or carry it someplace else. Thank you.

Sparky >> Once I saw where you were coming from, I stated the above. It was not a personal attack on you, it was simply my acknowlegement that if you want to mix Babylonian/ Sumerian mythology with the scriptures, you are free to do so, but I was not inclined to do so.

How about if Sparky simply “quotes >>” from my Rapture Interpretations to offer his ‘opposing’ arguments using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15. All of this “he said, she said” gossip adds nothing to the Debate. Dbrandit is writing on the topic and so can you. Thanks in advance.

(Valhall) >> Originally posted by FlyersFan >> That's right. No Rapture. No great promise. No easy out.

Terral’s Reply >> Your unbelief has no place on this thread at all.

Valhall >> Excuse me! I believe I have not met a more staunch "believer" than FlyersFan, and your lack of ability to tolerate an dissenting voice to your own interpretation is not tolerable. I say not tolerable.

Everyone here is entitled to his opinion. Mr. Flyer might very well have something to contribute to a debate on ‘another’ topic. “My” opinion is that his “NO RAPTURE” position disqualifies him from edifying those seeking ‘the truth’ on ‘this’ topic as an active participant. Please understand that Paul himself connects this Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) topic to “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) in 1Corinthians 15:51. That means some of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus simply cannot see it; must less the unsaved natural man (1Cor. 2:14) who sees these things as FOOLISHNESS. Flyer has every right to deny, deny, deny all he likes and even on this thread! However, the fact is that he has absolutely nothing to offer me or anyone seeking the truth of ‘this’ topic – Period!

A valid ‘dissenting voice’ is heard from a distinguished member like Dbrandt who is “quoting me” to offer his opposing views. Let’s try and draw a comparison to a college level professor teaching Analytical Geometry, but one student has not even passed high school level Algebra. Mr. Professor does not have the time to convince the uninformed student of the reality of quadratic equations and related theorems, which will only serve to waste valuable time for the rest of the class. Mr. Professor might very well like the underclassman, but he must weigh the goals of his class with the resources that everyone involved has to offer. The atheists among us have every right to believe in nothing, but they also have nothing to contribute to my “Trinity Conspiracy” Thread ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). If you feel that Mr. Flyer has made a valid point someplace, then please feel free (like in this post) to act as his ‘intercessor’ and bring that argument in your next thoughtful reply.

Valhall >> Because this thread - nay, this board - is not for you to launch your proselytizing without debate.

Heh . . . proselytizing? I am defending the thesis of my OP against those ATS members willing to ‘quote me >>’ and address the topic. Do you see a mouthful of humble pie on Terral’s face? No sir. There is nothing in my testimony saying to “Follow me” anywhere. The serious student of God’s Word seeking ‘the truth’ on these topics is being led to keep his nose fastened between the pages of Scripture. One of my favorite movies of all time is “The Matrix,” where “The Denominations” represent the machines and I stand with Neo ready, willing and able to show the enemy a world without them. I am not asking anyone to leave their local church, but stand ready to tutor (1Cor. 4:15) them to go back and wake them up also.

Valhall >> I agree with FlyersFan. The rapture is a bastardization of the scriptures. It is unscriptural. It is, in fact, an "easy out" to lull the masses into a position that will allow the great apostacy prophesied in the scriptures.

Heh . . . Somehow we knew you guys had something very much in common and thank you for making my point. We do not need Flyer or Valhall to know MANY members simply cannot see our Mystery Rapture. I am not here to convince you a Rapture exists, but here to help those who ‘can’ see it AND those yet ‘undecided’ into a deeper understanding of these things. Congrats on achieving “Ignore” status, as you also cannot write two solid paragraphs of commentary on ‘this’ very important topic.

Valhall >> You need to lighten up and discuss rather than lambast. Maybe you'll learn something.

Heh . . . one of the ‘wise’ ATS members of this fine Board gave me some excellent advice received from her father years ago. Never try teaching a pig to dance, because it is very frustrating and also not very much fun for the pig. : 0 )

Those among you who ‘can’ already see ‘a’ Rapture in Scripture are worthy of being counted among ‘my’ wise advisors on this topic. I challenge Valhall or Flyer to start their own thread with the hypothesis that “NO RAPTURE EXISTS.” I will be more than happy to quote 1Cor. 15:51-53 and 1Thes. 4:13-17, so both of you can offer us ‘your’ interpretations on what Paul ‘is’ teaching AND without all of this nonsense attached. GL,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Sparky, Valhall (Flyer, Dbrandt mentioned):

All the Thread Starter can ask is please obey the wishes of our gracious Mods and try to stick to the Rapture Topic. The goal of the Board Originators, Administrators and Moderators is to fill the archives with valuable information for current and future ATS members to ‘research’ through the search engines, weigh the evidence AND add any new input to views already presented. I work against the wishes of the Mods by answering ‘off-topic’ dribble having no application to the “Rapture” Topic at all. THAT is why the Board Designers gave us the U2U messaging system. There is nothing in Sparky’s or Valhall’s post about the topic, but please allow me to address them once and then ignore future ‘personal’ messages.

My question completely pertains to this topic because it is my counter-argument to your thesis that the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is a false teaching that could lead to the shattering of faith for millions of believers.

So I'm going to ask my question again since it is highly pertinent to this conversation.

Since you seem to be completely taken by this false teaching, what are you going to do if you find yourself within the Tribulation?

As a follow up, you are now referring to your writings in this thread as valuable information for the ATS audience, so I would like to know how you are going to handle the realization, if you find yourself along with all other living believers within the Tribulation, that you were actively involved in misleading what could turn out to be large numbers of believers into thinking that if they are true believers they will be rescued prior to the tribulation?

That's an awful big hickey to take on when there really isn't any scriptural backing to what you're pushing.

Alright .. I'm back for one more post ....

I left the conversation so you are not allowed to bring up my name or to continue to discuss me. You are breaking the rules. Not exactly christ-like behavior.

Originally posted by Terral
We do not need Flyer or Valhall to know MANY members simply cannot see our Mystery Rapture.

People can't see what isn't there. Rapture isn't there.

I am not here to convince you a Rapture exists, but here to help those who ‘can’ see it AND those yet ‘undecided’ into a deeper understanding of these things.

... and there you have his agenda. This isn't a 'spread the cult' site buddy .. it's a conspiracy site. The only conspiracy attached to the rapture myth is that people are still pushing it. Your time line is NOT a conspiracy. Your agenda has been clearly stated by you and it is NOT what this site is for.

Congrats on achieving “Ignore” status, as you also cannot write two solid paragraphs of commentary on ‘this’ very important topic.

1 - No commentary paragraphs are needed. Just the one link which I gave you on page one. NO RAPTURE EXISTS. ALL the information is there.

2 - you actually told Valhall that she can't write two solid paragraphs or commentaries??

Those among you who ‘can’ already see ‘a’ Rapture in Scripture are worthy of being counted among ‘my’ wise advisors on this topic.

'Worthy'??? OMG ... OMFreak'nG ... That smacks of cult. That IS cult. That is sick.

I challenge Valhall or Flyer to start their own thread with the hypothesis that “NO RAPTURE EXISTS.”

Already did. As I said on page one. It's already here and I gave you the link.
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Mr. Flyer ...

I AM A GIRL. STOP CALLING ME MR. FLYER AND 'HE'. READ THE FREAK'N POSTS. You have been told this and you acknowledged it. So why are you back to this?

“My” opinion is that his “NO RAPTURE” position disqualifies him from edifying those seeking ‘the truth’ on ‘this’ topic as an active participant.

WRONG. My 'NO RAPTURE' position is exactly what people seeking the truth need to hear. And no .. I am in no way disqualified from this topic as an active participant.

Flyer has every right to deny, deny, deny all he likes and even on this thread! However, the fact is that he has absolutely nothing to offer me or anyone seeking the truth of ‘this’ topic – Period!

WRONG. What I have to offer is the TRUTH. What you offer is a sick cult.

A valid ‘dissenting voice’ is heard from

A valid dissenting voice, eh? May God help you. You are in a cult so far that you can't see sunlight.

The rapture myth is an evil lie that will shatter the faith of those poor souls who happen to believe in the magic carpet ride outta' here when times get tough. They won't be prepared for when the crap hits the fan .. their faiths will be shaken .. and some of that will be on YOUR soul. It's demonic.

Cults are lies. Not only do you lie about the rapture myth .. but you have been caught in a lie here -

you said this -

Now you are ranting on my other threads

and I said this -

You have one other thread. ONE. I posted one line with two links. That's not a rant and you don't have multiple threads. Therefore .. your statement is a LIE.

Lies lies lies. The devil is the father of lies. Who is YOUR father Terral???

STOP TELLING LIES TO PEOPLE. Stop trying to drag them into your cult. It is on YOUR soul! You have had fair warning.



[edit on 9/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hi Pokey Oats:

Pokey Oats >> “I will not respond to this post but just wanted to point out that the statement above made by flyers was false. And thank God for the fantastic Mods here because frankly I found the kind of smearing that was being used against Terral absolutely shocking!”

Jesus Christ carrying His cross (after receiving 39 lashes) on a blood stained path to Calvary must have been a truly shocking spectacle; among the yelling (“Look at the King now”) of the crowds. Do not be amazed that the true ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) walks the same path taken by our Lord in the three years leading up to His destiny to be nailed to a cross between two thieves. Could the crowds help becoming part of the exhibition 2000 years ago? No sir. And they cannot help themselves today either. Blessed is every soul who believed in Christ ‘during’ the time everyone else rejected Him AND blessed are those coming to the knowledge of these things in our day during ‘our’ persecution before men.

These are small things to be examined by everyone in our time of testing and tribulation, when compared to what Christ even Paul suffered in those times. While my uncles and cousins have many church congregations among them with much financial support, I have never collected one nickel from anyone for serving God and His Word. The diagrams on display here are a few of eighty from my 700 page manuscript “The Mystery Explained,” that might never be published. This is why you are supposed to “Ignore” the scoffers with no other objective here than to throw mud in the air.

Do you remember watching cartoons as a child and seeing the character with a little angel on one shoulder and a little devil on the other? The scoffers here represent the little bad guy trying desperately to draw your attention away from the subject matter being presented. If you allow them to turn your head away from ‘the truth’ of my testimony, then you are not worthy to receive it. In fact, the day is coming when God will call you to present something for His children and the scoffers will be there to mock and shame you in the very same way. The most important key to make your very own possession is found in Vines’ definition of the term “mystery,” which I presented above: posted on 27-9-2006 at 07:24 AM (post id: 2514260) Please allow me to quote from his definition again to reinforce just how valuable this key is to coming to ‘the truth’ on this mystery topic: www.antioch.com.sg... (plug Mystery into the English box).

“Musterion: primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed.”. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but NOW hath it been manifested to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV).” Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words.

This topic is a subtopic of “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3 = 1Cor. 15:51) currently “outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension.” God has not selected every ATS member to be ‘illumined by His Spirit’ for this “knowledge withheld” to become “truth revealed.” You and I cannot expect the uninitiated to simply wake up and see things our way, because THAT is not how God’s Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6+7) works. I plant the seeds and another comes behind and waters, but God causes the growth. 1Cor. 3:6+7. I have a thirty year head start on the rest of you, but these seeds are being left behind so you also can catch up. : 0 ) The scoffers are here for a very important purpose; to keep those NEVER destined to see God’s Wisdom from EVER seeing it. Those moved by the little devils on their shoulders will witness the scourging spectacle by Flyer, WuXia, Sun and the others to say, “Look at him now!” Heh . . . let them mock all they like and be like the sheep before the shearers:

“He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.” Isaiah 53:7.

For us to act differently is missing the mark in being “Christ-like” (Christian). If you want to silence the little devil and get the very most from this thread, then place every worthless slave on ‘Ignore’ that I do. Did Christ look up on His trek to Calvary and mock the crowds spitting on Him? No. That is the response they are seeking. Allow them their day in the sun, because our day after the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) is here (2Cor. 5:10) and in the Lamb here (Rev. 7:17) during the 1000 Years Day of the Lord; and afterwards in Jerusalem above (“our mother” Gal. 4:26) here (Rev. 21:1+). : 0 )

Where are your eyes to be fixed? Colossians 3:1-3. The next verse says you and I will return with Him (Matt. 24:30+31) in glory (Col. 3:4).

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral