The Rapture Conspiracy Explained

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The trup being talked about is not in revelations or the Feast of Trumpets. It is the likely the trumpet that was blown on mount Sinai at the giving of the law. EXODUS 20:18 The Jewish day of Pentecost when the Law was given, and the Gentile day of Pentecost when the Spirit was given. This is the Feast of Weeks that ends on Pentecost.

This is the first harvest.



[edit on 28-9-2006 by Sun Matrix]

I have also heard this. So we need to watch and be ready.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Hi Sun Matrix:

Having read all your posts down through Page 7, the best way to describe the ‘off-topic’ rhetoric is ‘irritating.’ How can I address your concerns, when you refuse to simply write on the topic? A few of your comments seek to discredit me and my work, even though you refuse to “quote >>” a single thing from my twin Opening Posts.

Sun >> No problem. Except that Terrals posts are not really backed by scripture. I could take it apart piece by piece as others could and have already.

Heh . . . Really? Then “quote me >>” and let’s debate what I did present in the OP of this thread. Bring it! I eagerly await the opportunity to “quote you” ON this topic and show everyone here the folly of your half-baked theology (note: ‘your theology’ and interpretations, but ‘not’ your person). Your participation in this thread thus far as been one attempt after another to ‘flame’ the thread starter – Period! This truth is highlighted by your constant “Terral” ranting, rather than supported arguments against my “positions” in this debate.

Sun >> He won't address the facts that are presented so it's basically a waste of time. Terral just makes a statement and then throws a scripture verse behind it like it means something when it doesn't.

That represents your opportunity to reveal weakness in my case. “Quote >>” those seeming inconsistencies and show our readers the “Light” with your own expert Bible Commentary. Your claim here is ridiculous, because I cannot “quote you >>” even writing on this topic! Your contributions here amounts to a truckload of ‘talk, talk, talk’ to other members and even the third party judges, instead of mounting an attack upon anything I actually presented on the Rapture Topic. Scripture refers to folks like you as “busybodies.” 1Timothy 5:13. Do you want to prove that reference is taken out of context? Heh . . .

“At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house [member to member in this case]; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.” 1Timothy 5:13.

Sun >> Look in any of his threads and you will see the same comment. "Terral the scripture says something different than what you are saying."

Every ATS member has the same opportunity to “quote me >>” and bring any case they like using Scripture. The weakness and inconsistency of my actual “Rapture Conspiracy” Presentation (Opening Post) is what we are here to Debate! I cannot type out every reference to Scripture, or my posts would be much too long for anyone to follow. Many of my ‘references’ merely point to the place in God’s Word where a particular “phrase” is used in the ‘same context’ of my statement. Some members are applauding my efforts and skeptics like you have a different opinion.

Sun >> If a man comes to town claiming to be a police officer and I know he is a terrorist, it is my responsibility to point this out.

Heh. No sir. Every ATS ‘member’ is encouraged to stay focused and to write on ‘the topic’ of the thread. Our Mods are much more alert and brighter than you are willing to give them credit. The Administrators do the ‘administering,’ and our gracious Moderators do the ‘moderating,’ while the Members actively engage one another voicing opposing views on all these topics. Your responsibility is to the ‘readers’ of the threads to “quote >>” me and show them the folly of my case. Eleven Moderators are looking over our shoulders to ensure every member has the same opportunity to present his views on a ‘level’ playing field; with fifteen Super Moderators, one Administrator (William One Sac), and a team of Board Originators keeping eye on everyone involved. This is perhaps the best ‘well run’ and ‘well organized’ Forum I have had the pleasure to write on in my years of making these posts.

His failure to answer my simple question, WHAT IS THE NAME OF YOUR GOD should tell you all you know. Wouldn't a man of God be proud of his God. That said, I will sit back and watch for now, the point has been made.

Your ‘off-topic’ question has been answered more than once already. Heh . . . Now I am a terrorist . . . which brings us to the reason I am answering your post:

Sun >> And now to comment about the topic. One thousand years of tribulation is a bit farfetched.

You have mischaracterized my position terribly in this statement, when you should be “quoting >>” me to give your own words context. Everyone reading this post knows ‘exactly’ what all of my words mean, because your original statements appear directly above my own. There is no such thing as “1000 Years of Tribulation” in Scripture or in any of my posts. Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) is connected to the time when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Does Sun Matrix have any idea of what these three references teach? If the “1000 years” (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” has ‘1000 years,’ AND Paul’s Rapture takes place when that 1000 years “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2), then ‘our’ mystery Rapture takes place 1000 Years BEFORE the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3+). In other words, Satan is chained (Rev. 20:2 = Rev. 1:10) to START the 1000 Years AND released (Rev. 20:7) at the END of the “Day of the Lord.” Therefore, the ‘First Resurrection’ (that’s ours) takes place when the “Day of the Lord” STARTS, but the events of Matthew 24 take place 1000 years LATER at the ‘end of the age,’ where the “Second Resurrection” and Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) take place. The 1000 years of the “Day of the Lord” itself marks the ‘time’ standing ‘between’ the events of 1Thes. 4:17 AND Christ’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. I encourage everyone here to prove differently using Scripture.

Please use your ‘policing’ skills to root out the error in ‘my presentation’ of these facts. Your readers will thank you and I will thank you. GL in the Debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral




Our Rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17, 1Cor. 15:51-53) has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in Revelation,

....it's said that the bible is supposed to be cross referenced, and will explain itself.

I have little idea how your reply addresses anything from the Opening Post or relates to anything to do with this debate.

as i see it the timeline progression found in Rev. 7 actually identifies the group of people which some have labeled as 'Raptured',

also note that this singular group (a great multitude who came from the end-time great tribulation) are caught up to God's throne....
because every person in that group 'died' "IN" Christ (Lamb) as the foremost requirement & secondarily because they overcame the 'Beast' system.
[[ 'died' is only implied ~ as the verse does not detail just How that great multitude came to be in God's temple & around His throne specifically]]






i appreciate your gentle speech and balance....and the scope of your view...
and being able to compartmentalize all that data with pretty much instantaneous response.

You've gotta been dwelling on this interpetation for a long time.

Hi Sparky and Sun Matrix:

Both of you are drawing many conclusions on what Paul is teaching as “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3), while oversimplifying and distorting the “wisdom given him” (2Peter 3:14-16). Your statements are indeed on the topic, because the “His body” church is the ‘one body’ (Eph. 4:4) to be Raptured (1Thes. 4:17).

Sun Matrix >> I agree, the mystery is that the Gentiles are fellowheirs (Quoted Eph. 3:3-6).

Sun Matrix Commentary >> NONE.

Paul is in fact teaching on ‘three’ distinct and separate aspects of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3), which he referred to “in brief” to open this Epistle, saying (follow along slowly, because this is great stuff),

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed “IN” Him (“IN Christ Jesus = Eph. 2:6+7) with a view to an administration [administration of the mystery = Eph. 3:9] suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things “IN” Christ (= blood witness), things in the heavens [spirit witness] and things on the earth [water witness].” Eph. 1:9+10.

This ‘aspect’ of the “mystery of His will” is a ‘subset’ or ‘microcosm’ of the greater “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) that Paul is describing from three directions simultaneously throughout the third chapter. God’s plan (purpose for the ages = Eph. 3:11) is to sum up AND subject (1Cor. 15:27) all things to Christ through the mystery (spirit + water = blood) process described above. The “Heavens” is the ‘spirit’ witness of this Creation to be included “IN” Christ with the ‘Earth’ as the ‘water witness’ of the same operation. Here is the diagram. Please review every component before continuing to the bottom of this post:



Figure 1 depicts “The Mystery of His Will” for all things to be eventually summed up “IN” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) directly in the center of which Figure 2 (Administration of the Mystery”) is a ‘microcosm.’ Figure 2 is just one third (right 1/3rd) of Figure 1, where the summing up process runs north and south. God’s mystery (Col. 2:2) is Christ Himself (Figure 1), which is represented by the summing up of all things in Christ Jesus in east to west (horizontal) fashion. The “Administration” of Figure 2 is none other than “New Jerusalem” (our mother = Gal. 4:26) where the ‘body of Christ’ judges the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3) in the vertical summing up process taking place in the right hand third of Figure 1. Sun Matrix is trying to describe the truth represented by Figure 3 (Mystery Church) taking place here on the earth between Gentiles (spirit) and Jews (water) being “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27) through obedience to the Gospel (sealed IN Him = Eph. 1:13-14).

To gather a full visualization of what Paul is teaching, we must reexamine his precise language atop chapter 3:

“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles (Fig. 3) -- if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of God’s grace” (center red witness of Fig. 3) which was given to me for you; that by revelation (visions and revelations of the Lord = 2Cor. 12:1) there was made known TO ME the mystery, as I wrote before in brief (Eph. 1:9+10).” Eph. 3:1-3.

Paul begins by revealing that his audience is indeed made up predominately of “Gentiles,’ which explains the lack of OT quotes and references. He is introducing them to the “dispensation of God’s grace” given him by God Himself (Col. 1:25) by saying “if indeed you have heard . . .”. Many Bible commentators today have yet to realize that God has given Paul a specific ‘dispensation’ for ‘you Gentiles’ totally separate from the “bride” (John 3:29) of the Four Gospels. The ‘revelation’ aspect, then, has application to “The Mystery” described briefly in Eph. 1:9+10 AND this newly formed ‘dispensation’ of Gentiles AND Jews. This next quote is long (verses 4-7, but a single sentence.

“By referring to this (his upcoming chapter 3 dissertation), when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was NOT made known to the sons of men, as it has now (about 62 AD) been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body (Fig. 3 above), and fellow partakers of the promise IN Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.” Ephesians 3:4-7.

Paul’s statement in verse 3 says that when you read his descriptions of the ‘microcosmic’ teachings on the ‘administration’ (Eph. 3:9) AND the Gentile / Jewish ‘body’ church, THEN you can gain and understanding of his insight into the larger “mystery of Christ.” In every mystery scenario of Scripture, a spirit witness proceeds a water witness so the two overlap, or are ‘summed up’ into an ‘only begotten’ blood witness. The ‘one body’ (Fig. 3) is the blood witness begotten from the overlapping of the Gentiles and Jews via our Gospel. This “one body” (Rom. 12:4+5, 1Cor. 12:12-14, Eph. 4:4) is “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27), or as Paul teaches these Ephesians the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). We are to take ‘this’ information and carry ‘the pattern’ (spirit + water = blood) to his descriptions of the ‘administration’ (Eph. 1:9+10) of the mystery:

“To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles (mystery among the Gentiles = Col. 1:27 = Christ in you) the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery (Fig. 2 above) which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold (multilayered like many coats of paint atop one another) wisdom of God might now (beginning in 62 AD, after the close of Acts) be made known through the church (that’s us) to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places (see center of Fig. 1 just under the Father = Heavenly Places “IN” Christ Jesus = Mods of that Intercessory Realm). This was in accordance with the purpose for the ages (mystery of His will = Eph. 1:9+10) which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord . . .”. Eph. 3:8-11.

[Continued]

First off, everything Paul is teaching here falls under “The Mystery” umbrella, which by definition means NONE of the OT prophets were given to see ‘these things’ from the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Pet. 3:14-16). All of the information contained here remained “hidden IN God” (Eph. 3:9) to be revealed ONLY through Paul’s ministry and his Epistles To Gentiles. The “manifold wisdom” of God is far more complicated than even these three separate ‘facets’ of the same “The Mystery” Jewel, which finds each having a spirit witness overlapping a water witness to be summed up to the central only begotten blood witness. In other words, these microcosmic summing up ‘processes’ all follow the “three are into the one” (1John 5:8) ‘pattern’ common to ALL the triune mystery sets from the two charts (posted on 29-9-2006 at 06:17 AM (post id: 2518393) presented above that follow the pattern of the mother of all these ‘types:’



Every “three are into the one” set of mystery witnesses follow the ‘pattern’ of the ‘Principals’ of “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8) Himself! God becoming “all in all” remains in our future (right hand = 1Cor.15:28) from where “God To Come” is “ONE” and complete. All of the ‘spirit’ witnesses bear this ‘glory and image,’ as they overshadow the ‘water’ witnesses, so the central blood witness (God Who Is in this case) becomes the “Only Begotten.” Can you see the ‘pattern’ of the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in the central “God Who Is” witness set? Please say “Yes!” That is because Christ Jesus is the “Image of the Invisible God” (Col. 1:15) with His “three into the one” (F+S+HS) set of witnesses. Our church (Gentile + Jew = one body) bears this image and your family (man = spirit, woman = water, children = blood) and your own being (spirit, soul = blood, body = water). Paul is in truth highlighting the defining ‘pattern’ and ‘characteristics’ of ALL the mystery principals of Scripture, by describing only three of them in his dissertation to the Ephesians in Chapter 3.

Sun >> I also agree that Cornelius is the first fruits of this mystery.

No sir. Cornelius was saved by obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14), which includes the water baptism (Acts 10:47+48) in the ‘name of Jesus Christ’ (Matt. 28:19 = name of the Son = Acts 8:16 and Acts 19:5). God is using Cornelius as a ‘sign’ to the kingdom church based in Jerusalem (Acts15:4) that Gentiles under Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace” would receive the Holy Spirit by “hearing with faith (Gal. 3:2). This evidence was provided by Peter at the famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15:7-14), which turned the tide in the debate. Your statement here is disproved by Scripture itself, because Paul had to go up to Jerusalem to “submit the gospel I preach among the Gentiles” (Gal. 2:2), which includes the same Peter (Cephas = Gal. 2:9) YOU say preached the “gospel to the uncircumcised” (Gal. 2:7) to Cornelius YEARS before he ever even heard about it. Peter and the kingdom ‘bride’ sat on one side of the table in that famous meeting, while Paul and the grace ‘body of Christ’ sat opposing them. Those ‘disturbing’ (Gal. 1:6+7) the Gentiles churches of Paul were none other than “some of our number” (Acts15:24) from Peter’s kingdom church in Jerusalem of which Cornelius had been a member since Acts 10.

Sun >> SPARKY --- Are you Pre trib, mid trib or Post trib?

Heh . . . This question reveals the seeming ignorance on full display among my debating opponents in this debate, as my hypothesis is that ALL three of these interpretations from modern day scholars are indeed DEAD WRONG. The theology of Sun Matrix cannot even fathom the notion that ‘another’ interpretation of Scripture is the right one. This highlights the real “Conspiracy” attributes of this Rapture Topic, because the vast majority of professing Christians from the Denominations are totally oblivious that our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place 1000 YEARS before their ‘trib’ (Matt. 24:21 = start, Rev. 7:14 = finish) even begins. The majority of my debating opponents thus far have yet to even address ‘my’ thesis that the OP proves beyond all doubt. Their heads are so stuffed full with Denominational Garbage, that insufficient “RAM” space is available for us to even carry on a meaningful conversation on what ‘is’ actually presented in the OP of this thread.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
This question reveals the seeming ignorance on full display among my debating opponents in this debate,

Insults of ATS members. How very Christian of you. Don't be so sure that you have a reserved spot on the magic carpet ride out of here.

as my hypothesis is that ALL three of these interpretations from modern day scholars are indeed DEAD WRONG.

He's right and everyone else on the planet who disagrees with him are wrong?

The theology of Sun Matrix cannot even fathom the notion that ‘another’ interpretation of Scripture is the right one.

The theology of Terral cannot even fathom the notion that 'another' interpretation of Scripture is the right one. RIGHTBACKATCHYA

the vast majority of professing Christians from the Denominations are totally oblivious

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. All the other 2 billion Christians are wrong and oblivious .. and you are the only one in 2,000 years to get it right.

Their heads are so stuffed full with Denominational Garbage, that insufficient “RAM” space is available for us to even carry on a meaningful conversation on what ‘is’ actually presented in the OP of this thread.

Another insult. BTW .. You just admitted that you can't carry on a meaningful conversation so then just stop wasting your precious time and go away.



[edit on 9/29/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hi Jen:

Please allow me to ask in the nicest voice possible for you to place the ‘name’ of the member you are addressing atop your posts with a “quote >>” of something to give your words context, so the rest of us can gather some idea of what you are talking about. Some among the readers might very well have the person in your mind on “Ignore” and his post might not appear directly above yours for context. If we use this simple guideline, then our discussion will resemble something similar to an actual “Debate,” instead of a line of chat room messages. Thank you.

Jen >> That's a good post, and I tend to believe what you said. I have done some study on the feasts, and I have every reason to believe Christ will fulfill the rest, just as he has the feast 'past'.

Your problem is that Paul never connects ‘our’ mystery rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to any feast. In fact, he never mentions any OT prophet and never quotes a single OT verse in either Epistle to the Thessalonians. These facts lend credibility to my assertion that our translation to “immortality” (1Cor. 15:53) is indeed connected directly to “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3), by Paul himself in 1Cor. 15:51.

Jen >> I want to make it clear to you though....I do...I do believe Jesus is coming back for us....I just think "When" is what has many interpretation.

Since the “Day of the Lord” “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2) like “a thief in the night” (1Thes. 5:2), then nobody here on earth can accurately predict the year, month, day or hour concerning things the Father has fixed by His Own Authority (Acts 1:7). We only know that our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place when the “Day of the Lord” actually “Comes.” 2Thes. 2:2.

Jen >> I don't think we will know for a fact when we are in tribulation....we've been in tribulation for 2000 years.

Your statements here are not Scriptural and appear contradictory to one another. If we know when the trib comes and have been in the trib for 2000 years, then OBVIOUSLY we already know the timing “for a fact.” Please include Scriptural references in your “I Believe” and “I Think” Posts.

Jen >> I also think the seven year tribulation was brought on the Jews 2000 years ago.

That is the common interpretation of Preterists like the ones running TheologyWeb.com. What you say is impossible, because Christ Himself connects Daniel’s “abomination of desolation” (Matt. 24:15 = Dan. 11:31) to the ‘end of the age*’ (Matt. 24:3*+, Dan. 12:11-13*). The “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) and those “times and epochs” (Acts 1:6+7) MUST be fulfilled (Acts 3:21) in THIS “evil age” (Gal. 1:4). The 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) of the “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10 = Lord’s Day = Rev. 1:10) MUST be included in this same evil age, which ENDS immediately after the events of Matthew 24. That is what it means to approach ‘Your Coming’ and the “END of the age” (Matt. 24:3, Dan. 12:13). You cannot arbitrarily assign Daniel’s prophecies to 2000 years ago, because in that case the “1000 Years” Day of the Lord would have ended 2000 years ago. Anyone can take a look around and see we are still living in the same earth that Christ’s sandals walked upon 2000 years ago. We are still living in the mystery time BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” actually “Comes,” just like the Thessalonians of Paul’s Epistles.

Jen >> Daniels 70 weeks, time of Jacobs trouble. It took 7 years for Jerusalem to completely fall.

Heh . . . Did it now? All of my history books say Jerusalem fell in 70 AD and not 70-77 AD. Israel was occupied by Rome even in Christ’s day, which tells you they had no standing army to fight off Rome for seven years as you suggest ( www.aboutbibleprophecy.com... ).

Jen >> But in the midst of that week, the sacrifice ceased. If you are interested...I can send you a link on the history of the fall of Jerusalem.

Anyone can use their search engine on the internet and see that Jerusalem was leveled in 70 AD. For Daniel’s prophecies to be fulfilled 2000 years ago, then Christ must be a liar in Matthew 24:15, which connects the ‘prince’ (Dan. 9:25+26) and his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 11:31 +12:11 = Matt. 24:15) to the “end of the age” (Dan. 12:13, Matt. 24:3).

I can hardly believe anyone would be so bold as to try and sell this “I believe” business in this debate without offering a single Scriptural reference . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

The Jewish Revolt against the Romans started in 66 AD, and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and the last Jewish strong hold fell in 73 AD & that was Masada. That's seven long years of terrible tribulation, famine, destruction of the temple, pestilence etc. Yes I guess you could say I hold "some" Preterist views, and you hold Futurist views, wether some or all?

In the year 66 AD the Jews of Judea rebelled against their Roman masters. In response, the Emperor Nero dispatched an army under the generalship of Vespasian to restore order. By the year 68, resistance in the northern part of the province had been eradicated and the Romans turned their full attention to the subjugation of Jerusalem. That same year, the Emperor Nero died by his own hand, creating a power vacuum in Rome. In the resultant chaos, Vespasian was declared Emperor and returned to the Imperial City. It fell to his son, Titus, to lead the remaining army in the assault on Jerusalem.


Roman Centurian
The Roman legions surrounded the city and began to slowly squeeze the life out of the Jewish stronghold. By the year 70, the attackers had breached Jerusalem's outer walls and began a systematic ransacking of the city. The assault culminated in the burning and destruction of the Temple that served as the center of Judaism.

In victory, the Romans slaughtered thousands. Of those sparred from death: thousands more were enslaved and sent to toil in the mines of Egypt, others were dispersed to arenas throughout the Empire to be butchered for the amusement of the public. The Temple's sacred relics were taken to Rome where they were displayed in celebration of the victory.
The rebellion sputtered on for another three years and was finally extinguished in 73 AD with the fall of the various pockets of resistance including the stronghold at Masada.

Source


Jewish revolt, destruction of the temple, etc.

Hi Jen:

Jen >> The Jewish Revolt against the Romans started in 66 AD, and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and the last Jewish strong hold fell in 73 AD & that was Masada. That's seven long years of terrible tribulation, famine, destruction of the temple, pestilence etc. Yes I guess you could say I hold "some" Preterist views, and you hold Futurist views, wether some or all?

You bring back memories of hashing out differences with the Preterists at TheologyWeb.com. That WuXia guy does not hold a candle in the wind to those guys. I am not buying any of that ‘Revolt through Masada’ business. Jerusalem and the Temple were leveled to the ground by Titus in 70 AD. Pestilence? Heh . . . There is no comparison to the Christ’s consecutive “end of the age” events (Matt. 24:3-31) and the Romans leveling Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Book of Revelation was not even written and the primary characteristic of “prophecy” is those things are fulfilled in the ‘future.’ How does Zechariah see the ‘end of the age’ events unfolding?

“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” Zechariah 14:3+4.

If you will take a good look around, the Mount of Olives is still in one piece! If the “Jesus is God” crowd fell down between John 1:1 and John 1:34, then the Preterists have fallen between Matthew 24:34 and Matthew 24:36.

GL in the Debates,

Terral

Yeah, I saw your fights with the fella's at that site. It reminded me of something

Revelations written by cave dwelling groupies eating mushrooms and writing down their visions, between 600-100 years before Christ walked the earth. These books were incredibly popular in Rome for hundreds of years. Many believe book of revelations was included in the bible to keep this group of people pacified, as they would not accept religious teachings without their oracles of revelations as well.

And God will speak, with a great voice, to the entire ignorant empty-minded people, and judgment will come upon them from the great God. and all will perish at the hand of the Immortal. Fiery swords will fall from heaven on the earth. Torches, great gleams, will come shining into the midst of men The all-bearing earth will be shaken in those days by the hand of the Immortal, and the fish in the sea and all the wild beasts of the earth and innumerable tribes of birds, and all the souls of men and all the sea will shudder before the face of the Immortal and there will be a terror. He will break the lofty summits of the mountains and the mounds of giants and the dark abyss will appear to all. High ravines in lofty mountains will be full of corpses. Rocks will flow with blood and every torrent will fill the plain. AII well-constructed walls of hostile men will fall to the ground, because they knew neither the law nor the judgment of the great God, but with mindless spirit you all launched and attack and raised spears against the sanctuary. God will judge all men by war and sword and fire and torrential rain. There will also be brimstone from heaven and stone and much grievous hail will come upon four-footed creatures. Then they will recognize the immortal God who judges these things. Wailing and tumult will spread throughout the boundless earth at the death of men. All the impious will bathe in blood. The earth itself will also drink of the blood of the dying; wild beasts will be sated with flesh. God himself, the great eternal one, told me to prophesy all these things. These things will not go unfulfilled. Nor is anything left unaccomplished that he so much as puts in mind for the spirit of God which knows no falsehood is throughout the world."

Sybilline Oracles Book 8

"Stars will leave the vault of heaven. A raging storm with hurricane will lay the earth desolate

and judgment of the immortal God . . . but when God changes the times . . . making winter summer, then all the oracles are fulfilled. But when the world perished . . .

All thc stars will fall directly into the sea, all in turn, and men will call a shining comet "the star," a sign of much impending toil. He will judge the souls of flesh-bearing men on the tribunal when the whole world becomes barren land and thorns. Men will throw away idols and all wealth. Fire will burn-up land, heaven, and sea, A lament will rise from all and gnashing of teeth The light of the sun will be eclipsed and the troupes of stars He will roll up heaven. The light of the moon will perish. He will elevate ravines, and destroy the heights of hills. No longer will mournful height appear among men. Mountains will be equal to plains, and all the sea."

Sybilline Oracles

"God, whose dwelling is in the sky, shall roll up the heavens as a book is rolled, and the whole firmament in its varied forms shall fall on the divine earth and on the sea; and then shall flow a ceaseless cataract of raging fire and shall burn land and sea, and the firmament of heaven and the stars and creation itself it shall cast in one molten mass and clean dissolve. Then no more shall there be luminaries, twinkling orbs, no night, no. dawn ... no spring, no summer, no winter, no autumn "

SybillineOracles Book 2

"And then a great river of blazing fire will flow from heaven, and will consume every place, land and great ocean and gleaming sea, lakes and rivers, springs and implacable Hades and the heavenly vault. But thc heavenly luminaries will crash together. also into an utterly desolate form. For all the stars will fall together from heaven on the sea. All the souls of men will gnash their teeth, burning in a river, and brimstone and a rush of fire in a fiery plain, and ashes will cover all. And then all the elements of the world will be bereft: air, land, sea, light, vault of heaven, days, nights. No longer will innumerable birds lly in the air. Swimming creatures will no longer swim the sea at all. No laden ship will voyage on the waves. No guiding oxen will plow the soil. No sound of trees under the winds. But at once. all will melt into one and separate into clear air."


The book of revelations in the Bible, is only one of many books written by people terrified of their own mortality. The bible is popular because the printing press was developed by western powers, and world wars won by the same.

Revelations written by cave dwelling groupies eating mushrooms and writing down their visions, between 600-100 years before Christ walked the earth. These books were incredibly popular in Rome for hundreds of years. Many believe book of revelations was included in the bible to keep this group of people pacified, as they would not accept religious teachings without their oracles of revelations as well.

And God will speak, with a great voice, to the entire ignorant empty-minded people, and judgment will come upon them from the great God. and all will perish at the hand of the Immortal. Fiery swords will fall from heaven on the earth. Torches, great gleams, will come shining into the midst of men The all-bearing earth will be shaken in those days by the hand of the Immortal, and the fish in the sea and all the wild beasts of the earth and innumerable tribes of birds, and all the souls of men and all the sea will shudder before the face of the Immortal and there will be a terror. He will break the lofty summits of the mountains and the mounds of giants and the dark abyss will appear to all. High ravines in lofty mountains will be full of corpses. Rocks will flow with blood and every torrent will fill the plain. AII well-constructed walls of hostile men will fall to the ground, because they knew neither the law nor the judgment of the great God, but with mindless spirit you all launched and attack and raised spears against the sanctuary. God will judge all men by war and sword and fire and torrential rain. There will also be brimstone from heaven and stone and much grievous hail will come upon four-footed creatures. Then they will recognize the immortal God who judges these things. Wailing and tumult will spread throughout the boundless earth at the death of men. All the impious will bathe in blood. The earth itself will also drink of the blood of the dying; wild beasts will be sated with flesh. God himself, the great eternal one, told me to prophesy all these things. These things will not go unfulfilled. Nor is anything left unaccomplished that he so much as puts in mind for the spirit of God which knows no falsehood is throughout the world."

Sybilline Oracles Book 8

"Stars will leave the vault of heaven. A raging storm with hurricane will lay the earth desolate

and judgment of the immortal God . . . but when God changes the times . . . making winter summer, then all the oracles are fulfilled. But when the world perished . . .

All thc stars will fall directly into the sea, all in turn, and men will call a shining comet "the star," a sign of much impending toil. He will judge the souls of flesh-bearing men on the tribunal when the whole world becomes barren land and thorns. Men will throw away idols and all wealth. Fire will burn-up land, heaven, and sea, A lament will rise from all and gnashing of teeth The light of the sun will be eclipsed and the troupes of stars He will roll up heaven. The light of the moon will perish. He will elevate ravines, and destroy the heights of hills. No longer will mournful height appear among men. Mountains will be equal to plains, and all the sea."

Sybilline Oracles

"God, whose dwelling is in the sky, shall roll up the heavens as a book is rolled, and the whole firmament in its varied forms shall fall on the divine earth and on the sea; and then shall flow a ceaseless cataract of raging fire and shall burn land and sea, and the firmament of heaven and the stars and creation itself it shall cast in one molten mass and clean dissolve. Then no more shall there be luminaries, twinkling orbs, no night, no. dawn ... no spring, no summer, no winter, no autumn "

SybillineOracles Book 2

"And then a great river of blazing fire will flow from heaven, and will consume every place, land and great ocean and gleaming sea, lakes and rivers, springs and implacable Hades and the heavenly vault. But thc heavenly luminaries will crash together. also into an utterly desolate form. For all the stars will fall together from heaven on the sea. All the souls of men will gnash their teeth, burning in a river, and brimstone and a rush of fire in a fiery plain, and ashes will cover all. And then all the elements of the world will be bereft: air, land, sea, light, vault of heaven, days, nights. No longer will innumerable birds lly in the air. Swimming creatures will no longer swim the sea at all. No laden ship will voyage on the waves. No guiding oxen will plow the soil. No sound of trees under the winds. But at once. all will melt into one and separate into clear air."


The book of revelations in the Bible, is only one of many books written by people terrified of their own mortality. The bible is popular because the printing press was developed by western powers, and world wars won by the same.

toolman

Good point, I will be honest with you but this is the first time I heard of the Sybyline Oracles, perhaps somebody may had pointed them to me but I have forgotten.

I will agree with you because I do not believe that the book of revelations should even be included in the bible.

And been the book of revelations also written in Greek that could explain the link to the oracles.

Very interesting, I definitely will look into the oracles and read them.

Hi Jen:

Terral is back in the saddle! Many thanks to the gracious Administrators and Moderators who investigated the situation and reinstated my account.

Jen >> Yeah, I saw your fights with the fella's at that site. It reminded me of something.

People are going to fight anytime you bring up the topics of Sex, Politics or Religion. The idea is to work within the parameters established by the Three Amigos, Admins and Moderators. GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Marg, many people believe the sybilline oracles to be the prototype or even the first draft for the book of revelations in the Bible.

Emperor constantine ( 326 AD) brought together council to decide how the bible should be assembled, if Christ was divine, what books would be included, which should not, etc.
At that time Rome was fracturing, losing its legendary glory, and place in the world. Religious beliefs were deciding political events ( sound familar ? ), special interests in Rome had to be pacified, and therefore dictated how the Bible was assembled. The Christian population already won over by the emperor declaring it the national religion, how to bring in people in the Roman Empire who did not believe in what would become the bible...

Drop in the Sybilline oracles. dress it up, call it the book of revelations, which the oracles had been called for hundreds of years already...Presto, now both sides of the aisle are happy, compromise is achieved, and humanity has been left with something Christ never intended.

Originally posted by toolman

Marg, many people believe the sybilline oracles to be the prototype or even the first draft for the book of revelations in the Bible.

Emperor constantine ( 326 AD) brought together council to decide how the bible should be assembled, if Christ was divine, what books would be included, which should not, etc.
At that time Rome was fracturing, losing its legendary glory, and place in the world. Religious beliefs were deciding political events ( sound familar ? ), special interests in Rome had to be pacified, and therefore dictated how the Bible was assembled. The Christian population already won over by the emperor declaring it the national religion, how to bring in people in the Roman Empire who did not believe in what would become the bible...

Drop in the Sybilline oracles. dress it up, call it the book of revelations, which the oracles had been called for hundreds of years already...Presto, now both sides of the aisle are happy, compromise is achieved, and humanity has been left with something Christ never intended.

Constantine had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with choosing the book of the Bible.

This is a false statement

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Constantine had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with choosing the book of the Bible.

This is a false statement

Excuse me but what are you talking about Sun, if history do not fail me, I believe it was Constantino the one that Through his influences the Roman Empire was Christianized.

In order for Constantine to rule, politically, the people he sought to bring them all under a common religious system, he commissioned Eusebius to prepare some bibles, that until then were all hand written.

So in other words he choose which of the bibles would be the one that better fitted for his political-religious purposed.

Constantine Financed 50 parchment copies of the bible, trying to unite a crumbling Empire. Technically the council of trent canonized the bible, but constanstine's paying church leaders and financing the parchment copies created the platform for what became todays bible. And like all things, when you pay for it, you decide how it gets done.

It may not be something evangelicals or fundamentialists wish to acknowledge, but that is what occured. There are many books that never made it in, and church practice of burning and destroying competing books are a terrible loss. There are many other points of view regarding christ, maybe his own words that did not sit well with the patriarchal system slowly entreching itself in Christianity.


Looking at the bible from a objective perspective, it in incomplete and disjointed. SO much of christs life missing, and yet we have so much of pauls nonsense included...

Originally posted by toolman

Constantine Financed 50 parchment copies of the bible .... SO much of christs life missing, and yet we have so much of pauls nonsense included...

I have books on bible history here such as when certain books became accepted; and certain other books that were rejected by almost everyone but still made it into the bible; and yet I didn't know about that.

Revelation was soundly rejected by most everyone well up past 300 AD. Even hundreds of years later many saints and scholars looked at it and rejected it. I often wondered how the heck it made it into the bible with so many people against it.

I'm going to have to look into the Constantine angle. I don't have that anywhere in my books here.

[edit on 10/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm going to have to look into the Constantine angle. I don't have that anywhere in my books here.

[edit on 10/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

I agree that revelations was a very disputable book, no only because its author's origins could not be traced by also because the way it came to be so late AD.

If you want to know about Constantine and his historical accounts you have to stay away from religious only bible studies sites and get into the more broader school of thought and search for sites that are neutral and guided only by historical value rather than religious.



[edit on 1-10-2006 by marg6043]