John Lear's Moon Pictures on ATS

Originally posted by TheBorg
But, I think that to keep up the best possible debate, we need to stage some sort of cross forum debate. Maybe the Amigos would be interested in a friendly competition between boards? Not like a rivals type of thing; more like a friendly H2H debate... Whatcha think? Does it have potential? Each board could even have a debate team of the best members, ready to support the cause. I like it myself...

TheBorg

There isn't any use in "debate" on the internet. People will be rude, obstinate, ignorant, and obtuse. It is a waste of effort.

On the internet i normally follow the concept that if i can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. emotion is hard enough to deal with when injected into real life scenarios. On a medium where personal accountability is really close to nil, emotion can create a troll. Much better to ignore trolls and leave emotion to the kids chats.

The Bad Astronomy people are very likely to bring emotion, as they are invested in their science. This is a very dangerous animal. At best, you will spend a few months arguing with them and being distracted from making any meaningful progress. At worst they will run true research away.

Springer is good at smacking unruly ATSers back into line, or banning them. I am an admin at a forum in my spare time (which i have had none of for months) and am shocked how quickly Springer bans people. But then i keep in mind that as long as i keep emotion away from conversation here, banning won't likely affect me.

[edit on 21-8-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Well, what I was getting at was that before the debate started, we would all agree on rules, and would work accordingly. If it could be worked out between us who's to do the talking, and who's to do the researching, then things would run more smoothly. To keep the troll-type of people away from making posts, there would almost have to be a rule that prevents any rude conduct for either side, as that would constitute forfeiture.

This could work, if both sides were willing. Also, if these other forums have any self-worth at all, they would want to assert that by meeting us on an even playing field. I'd challenge them to a one on one debate myself, if they would be so willing. We could even have several neutral judges determine the winner. Or, we could just allow the members to decide for themselves who made the most convincing argument. Either way, it would still be fun.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg
Well, what I was getting at was that before the debate started, we would all agree on rules, and would work accordingly. If it could be worked out between us who's to do the talking, and who's to do the researching, then things would run more smoothly. To keep the troll-type of people away from making posts, there would almost have to be a rule that prevents any rude conduct for either side, as that would constitute forfeiture.

This could work, if both sides were willing. Also, if these other forums have any self-worth at all, they would want to assert that by meeting us on an even playing field. I'd challenge them to a one on one debate myself, if they would be so willing. We could even have several neutral judges determine the winner. Or, we could just allow the members to decide for themselves who made the most convincing argument. Either way, it would still be fun.

TheBorg

I am intelligent, yet most uneducated. I run a 10 million a year business on my own self guided education and common sense. Needless to say, contrary to what my comrades here may say, i am no idiot. A fool for sure, but not an idiot.

Having said that, i am very unfamiliar with rules of debate. I am familiar with vernacular, but procedure escapes me. I was raised in West Texas and spent my time lifting weights to play football. Didn't have time for that Glee Club and Debate Club stuff. I would venture a guess that very few people here ARE familiar with such procedures. Perhaps I am wrong.

This other site is full of over educated fools. No, they are not idiots either, but fools nonetheless (as we all are, i suppose). For all this education, both feigned and real, the "debate" would immediately be infused with the same "dirty tricks" that they employed first and foremost when Zorgons data was mentioned. So many straw men popped up i thought i was in the pumpkin patch.

I doubt civility would be possible. I would still read it, but would have severely lowered expectations.

Back to the moon....

The spectral analysis of Aristarchus is interesting, to say the least. Could the light emission cycle from the Aristarchus region be shown to sync somehow with solar activity? Or, given the proximity of our Terra Firma to Luna, could geological and meteorological manifestations on Earth not impact the Moon via our ionosphere?

Perhaps the explanation of the area is more mundane than we expect only because the explanation still exceeds our understanding? A fusion reactor as a power source seems wholly unlikely and improbable. A fusion reactor for experimentation is possible. But the comparison to the Z from Sandia is poignant, i believe.

Off to continue searching, now that i have gotten my head above water at work (for now).

As for Aristarchus, I'd have to agree on all the stuff that you said. It merits further study too. If we keep digging, we will find something good. Of that I am quite sure.

**SIDEBAR**
Now, as for the cross-forum debate. I don't believe that anyone here is a "fool", as you suggest, since we can oust hoaxes in record time. As for the childish nature of people in general, well we're going to find that everywhere we go. We even find that here. I won't continue to contend with this issue though, as it's a moot point until management decides whether it's a good idea or not. I just thought that it'd be an interesting opportunity to interact with a competing forum. That's all.
**END SIDEBAR**

TheBorg

Originally posted by zorgon
To Sherpa...

About that camoflage issue... remember the James Bond movies? Even they spoofed the NASA movie set when James stole the Rover from the Nevada Moon Test and drove it across the Nevada desert to escape... "Diamond are Forever"

Yes I recognise the issue, hence my concerns when you told me, I immediatly thought how much harder it was going to be to get reasonable images from Earth bound telescopes if they was proactively engaged in camoflage.

Which leads me to believe they are very much aware of peoples efforts to prove there are artificial structures there.

So are you serious about the anti-grav research ?

The video you posted about the 30 gauge wire looked so promising has anybody else tried this ?

I am a little cautious about trying it here because we are 240-250 volts.

There clearly needs to be some exploritive science done here.

I have been reading Fred Steckling's book "Alien Bases on The Moon II"
and it has a chapter titled "UFO Analysis" which attempts to explain how they work, I don't know if this is useful.

Anyway I hope matyas has good fortune in his research.



[edit on 22-8-2007 by sherpa]

[edit on 22-8-2007 by sherpa]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


There isn't any use in "debate" on the internet. People will be rude, obstinate, ignorant, and obtuse. It is a waste of effort.

On the internet i normally follow the concept that if i can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. emotion is hard enough to deal with when injected into real life scenarios. On a medium where personal accountability is really close to nil, emotion can create a troll. Much better to ignore trolls and leave emotion to the kids chats.

The Bad Astronomy people are very likely to bring emotion, as they are invested in their science. This is a very dangerous animal. At best, you will spend a few months arguing with them and being distracted from making any meaningful progress. At worst they will run true research away.

Hi Big,

I tend to agree with you wholeheartedly, you have put it into words better than I could have though.

You seem to have your wheels firmly planted on the tracks, more so than me I am afraid and for someone who spent his early life lifting weights and playing football you sound pretty eloquent to me.

With respect to Borg you clearly enjoy the debate, however I feel that there is insufficient watertight evidence to aid you in this, as much as I admire your skills, clearly though that is just my opinion.

Originally posted by sherpa
So are you serious about the anti-grav research ?

You had better believe it with every drop of doubt you got dude (ette? nah...), I'll move to Hungary and talk personally with the Romanians if I have to to get the straight dope....plus I would be closer to Kazakhstan!

So far I have it down to some Eveready nuclear batteries, a Tesla coil, lots of Styrofoam and aluminum foil, and a tether. All available from some government contractors and your local TG&Y. Putting it together is the trick...

Oh yeah, that's not the AG thing. Actually for AG I am waiting on the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) to come online in November. If Lisa Randall is going to be there I would be a flea on her collar, not a flea collar since cats tend to disappear into boxes around physicists. but alas, the likely reality is I will have to dole out big bucks for the pdf papers. Spent too much time chasing girls in college, and now I don't get a front row seat...

The real problem is people don't think far ahead enough. As a society, we are all suffering from long term memory loss, and our short term is gettin' shorter by the week. Now this is the crux of the matter.

edit to brush up the tough guy talk

[edit on 8/22/2007 by Matyas]

One more thing, to anyone who still holds onto doubt about what we are doing here. I have found the greatest path of discovery is to follow the golden chains of inspiration.

Peter Hansen inspired Jules Verne, who inspired Tsiolkovsky, who inspired Gerard K. O'Neill, who inspired....my generation

I'm talkin' 'bout my generation...

So these are not a bunch of kooks, they were quite sharp. There are other chains too, but this one stands out for both the strength of its links and hidden aspects.

reply to post by Matyas



Hi matyas,

Thanks for the post and I can see your serious.

So your waiting for the LHC to come on line together with 2000 physicists who presumably will be looking for the same things you are.

Well I cetainly hope you get the data you are looking for and not a load of edited rubbish with missing data.

Sorry for my ignorance but I don't understand the Hungary connection, could you explain ?

Have you done any experimentation as yet or are things still at the theoretical level ?

Originally posted by Matyas
One more thing, to anyone who still holds onto doubt about what we are doing here. I have found the greatest path of discovery is to follow the golden chains of inspiration.

Peter Hansen inspired Jules Verne, who inspired Tsiolkovsky, who inspired Gerard K. O'Neill, who inspired....my generation

I'm talkin' 'bout my generation...

So these are not a bunch of kooks, they were quite sharp. There are other chains too, but this one stands out for both the strength of its links and hidden aspects.

Exactly. I started my "search" in 1998 when the internet was young and literally FULL of porn (i hated to check my email...nothing but porn spam).

I was looking for God. I discovered quickly that God was a personal concept influenced by the mass "meme" effect. We believe because we are immersed, and each person believes slightly different than the next. Even worse, these slight differences become important enough to want that next person dead, so i decided that God may not be the best thing to search for, as he started to appear to be a straw man.

I followed those chains through a few hundred steps until i ended up at ATS. Now those chains have moved me to following the reasearch of Pegasus, which seems to combine many different concepts that i have already mulled over (to great extent in some instances).

You have to be willing to look and think laterally. Not doing so keeps you walking up the boring path.

I am interested in Zorgon's concept of looking in Ultraviolet rather than Infrared.

It seems that this concept keeps popping up. I remember hearing that UFO's could be filimed, even while cloaked, in ultraviolet light.

I am going to look into this, but before i start does anyone have any links or info on research around this?

ummm look at the first 2 pictures... YOU CAN SEE STARS!!! so why again couldnt we see the stars in the pics form when we landed on the moon?

I´m a user in both forums, ATS & BAUT.

Personally i think, both are great in their ways.

It would be unwise to me, to be just part of one. They complement each other as much as they "hate" each other, to express it in some way.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I am interested in Zorgon's concept of looking in Ultraviolet rather than Infrared.

It seems that this concept keeps popping up. I remember hearing that UFO's could be filimed, even while cloaked, in ultraviolet light.

I am going to look into this, but before i start does anyone have any links or info on research around this?

There seems to be some discussion about ultraviolet photography techniques here:

www.instructables.com...

I can't say I have seen any ultraviolet viewing options other than cameras though.

Originally posted by sherpa
Sorry for my ignorance but I don't understand the Hungary connection, could you explain ?

Well, that area of the world has been a pool of brainpower for a few centuries. Thing is, when in Hungary a Hungarian does not get peer recognition until he leaves the country. Ah, for the most part.

Have you done any experimentation as yet or are things still at the theoretical level ?

No empirical research to date, but I do know of some intrepid tinkerers making a go at it. All my stuff is still tucked away in equations...

reply to post by Matyas


Thanks for the info matyas.

And to get back on topc kinda, it is funny but what no one seems to have picked up on with all the excitement of Aristarchus Crater is the haze over the Moon in Mike Deegans picture, (and what a fantastic pic it is), now to me it looks suspicously like a substantial atmosphere.

Anybody want to take another look ?

Sorry but you will need something like Paintshop it is a png file

Link to the image but be patient it is 18 megs.




www.thelivingmoon.com...

reply to post by sherpa


as you bring up the picture :

moon pic

lets look at it , carefully

pick any point on the moons apparent circumfrance

and please note that the EXACT topography of the moon is visible

if there was a ' subsantial lunar atmosphere ' as you claim - that definition would be degraded by haze

it is not , ergo - no atmpsphere

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Sorry, but I have to disagree, if you look at the area directly over Aristarchus Crater there is a definate contrast between this area and the surrounding area, ie clear vs haze.

Are you using an image viewer and zooming in to this area ?

There is either something on the surface blurring the picture, or the lens on the photogs scope are flawed.

Ape, there will still be some detail on the horizon. While you may provide a good point, i am not sure it is very conclusive in any sort of way.

BTW...my great grandfather immigrated to Pennsylvania from Hungary when my grandfather was 5. My mom is Hungarian, and i am half Hungarian.

My grandparents kept in touch with the "old family" quite a bit, visiting every few years. They had video of the cows actually coming home, entering the village via the only street and going into their respective houses with absolutely no prompting. It was very cool. My mother and I both hope to visit one day....

What are the chances?
I'm also Hungarian, although born in Australia 2 days after my Hungarian Parents arrived.

Perhaps theres truth to what Matyas says afterall.

By the way, keep up all the fantastic work guys (and gals). Seems like the Pegasus group is really beginning to kick off, great stuff!