Bob Lazar fact or fiction???

Originally posted by Schaden
Of course they are. Just the names of the compartments I was briefed into is in fact SCI. My point is once you're talking about information restricted above a simple TS clearance, all bets are off. There is no hierarchy of information such as level 30 above TS, level 31 above TS etc... That is pure bunk. I don't expect detailed information of SCI compartments to be available in the public domain, but when someone makes the specific claim, using the specific phrase, "X levels above TS", it sets off the BS detector. It's inevitably comes from some UFO conspiracist that can't even prove they were in a position to hold a clearance. You'd think if there was such a system, there would be anecodotal evidence somewhere. A footnote perhaps ?
But there is nothing.

You'd think. However if such clearances exist, they most assuradly would be compartmentalized info, and you nor I would know about it. Thats my point. If such a clearance existed say 30 lvls above TS, with the compartmentalization of information it's very likely you'd not have any knowledge at all of it, nor would there be acknowledgement of existance of such clearance at your level of say, TS. A footnote is a security breech is such a case. I'd think you understand that.

Also, I believe Lazar said he already had "Q" clearance (or civilian TS) and what he claimed he got at S-4 was "far above it", and was TOLD, it was 32(?)...levels above top secret...and included signing documents waiving his constitutional rights.

Ant any rate, to that end, with compartmentalization of every facet of military and govt, its not likely such high level security would be acknowledged in any public document.

Originally posted by Schaden
I gave as much proof as possible in a public forum.
What do you want a photocopy of my DD-214 ?

My point exactly. Just a while ago you were demanding pure evidence of the credintials of Bob Lazar, John Lear, and George Knapp. There are MANY sources on the net that can quilifiy as proof, but you will fall short of things like photocopys of identification for various reasons. When you are asked to prove yourself in a public place, you have limitations like privacy. That is probably why you call Bob Lazar a fraud, because of the limits.

Originally posted by Schaden
And no I've never seen the double knife logo. I have no idea what it is.

Then it is safe to say you are compartmentalized, and you don't know EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by Schaden
Let's see your proof you're who you say you are.
What's your source rating ? What NECs do you hold ?
What is your current command and UIC ?
If I had a nickel for everyone I've met that claims to have been SF I'd be rich.

My source rating is Information Systems Technician (IT). NEC would be the most obvious Naval Special Warfare classification. 5320, 5326, 5323... and others. And forgive me, I don't want to supply my current command and unit identification code.

But like I said, we have our privacy concerns in the public, so we have limited ways to prove ourselves.

Originally posted by jritzmann
I'd think you understand that.

I see what you're saying.
The problem is it's a circular argument.

"There are gradient levels above top secret such as 20 levels above ts, 21 levels above ts etc"

"But nobody knows about them because they are classified 20 levels above ts"
ROFL

edit:
I've given this some more thought and what about this:
For compartmented information to be categorized above or below other compartmented information, someone or some authority would have to know the details of all current compartmented information to make this determination.

There is nobody that has access to all SCI material in the govt. Not even the President or SECDEF. It would defeat the purpose of compartmentalization.
So I think that's a good syllogism outlining why there cannot be "levels" above ts.

Anything compartmented at the ts level is sensitive. Some compartments may have tens of thousands of people. Others may have less than a dozen. But there is no way to label one compartment above another unless you want to talk about compartments within compartments, but I don't think it's reasonable to believe that compartments within a compartments could go on for 30+ iterations.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by Schaden]

Originally posted by LAES YVAN
That is probably why you call Bob Lazar a fraud, because of the limits.

My asking for Bob Lazar's educational credentials is not the same as you asking for my DD-214 in a public message forum. I submit the reason Lazar's diplomas can't be produced is because they don't exist. Not because Lazar doesn't want to lose his privacy.

Originally posted by LAES YVAN
Then it is safe to say you are compartmentalized, and you don't know EVERYTHING.

I'm compartmentalized ? What does that mean ?
You have the picture in your avatar, so I doubt it's anything that secret.
What is it, the symbol to a certain SEAL team detachment ?
You may as well tell us and not act like it's so special.
You brought it up, so obviously you're proud of it.
I never claimed expertise in the special warfare community.
Have you ever been on a submarine ? If I pointed out you didn't know
how many 4mc stations are onboard a 688 does it prove anything ?
Of course not.

Originally posted by LAES YVAN
And forgive me, I don't want to supply my current command and unit identification code.

But like I said, we have our privacy concerns in the public, so we have limited ways to prove ourselves.

Why would I forgive you when you don't show me the same courtesy ?
Demanding proof of my service, when you know full well nobody in their right mind would post scanned documents with privacy act data on it ?
I guess we're just playing games.

Speaking of which, someone is playing games. My account was disabled for the last few hours. Wasn't taking my passoword.
Finally had to request a new one.

Originally posted by Schaden

Originally posted by jritzmann
I'd think you understand that.

I see what you're saying.
The problem is it's a circular argument.

"There are gradient levels above top secret such as 20 levels above ts, 21 levels above ts etc"

"But nobody knows about them because they are classified 20 levels above ts"
ROFL

edit:
I've given this some more thought and what about this:
For compartmented information to be categorized above or below other compartmented information, someone or some authority would have to know the details of all current compartmented information to make this determination.

There is nobody that has access to all SCI material in the govt. Not even the President or SECDEF. It would defeat the purpose of compartmentalization.
So I think that's a good syllogism outlining why there cannot be "levels" above ts.

Anything compartmented at the ts level is sensitive. Some compartments may have tens of thousands of people. Others may have less than a dozen. But there is no way to label one compartment above another unless you want to talk about compartments within compartments, but I don't think it's reasonable to believe that compartments within a compartments could go on for 30+ iterations.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by Schaden]

But we're not talking about everything compartmentalized within one sub, it's many over many others. This keeps information safe because no one person knows the whole deal, with the excepton of the person who initialized compartmentalization.

I dont believe thats unreasonable to put into play. The bottom line is this, say you have top secret clearance now. Does that mean you'd have access to "recovered vehicles" as it pertains to this discussion? My guess is absolutely not.

Compartmentalized info, black over black under black.

Originally posted by jritzmann
But we're not talking about everything compartmentalized within one sub, it's many over many others. This keeps information safe because no one person knows the whole deal, with the excepton of the person who initialized compartmentalization.

I dont believe thats unreasonable to put into play. The bottom line is this, say you have top secret clearance now. Does that mean you'd have access to "recovered vehicles" as it pertains to this discussion? My guess is absolutely not.

Compartmentalized info, black over black under black.

But that's my point. How does one person compartment something over another compartment for which they have no access ? There is ts info. Above that things are compartmented. The compartments themselves are not compared to each other except for the classification of the material C/S/TS. Say there is a compartment about reverse engineering UFOs. Who is to say this is 36 levels above TS. When the person compartmenting the info only has access to one slice of the SCI pie ?
Most likely they wouldn't know what is classified at only 35 levels above TS.
Now some info can fall under multiple compartments, but I don't believe that's what people are eluding to when they say they had security clearance 38 levels above ts.


[edit on 19-8-2006 by Schaden]

Just another note on clearances. With the new EQIP system you can get a security clearance much faster. You can get an interim TS with SCI in a matter of weeks if you pass your interview and get authorized. This is how it is today, not how it was in the 80's when Lazar may or may not got his clearance authorized.

SF86s are only used today to give those applying for a clearance a heads up on the questions they will be asked if they use EQIP. This helps lower the time needed to fill in the blanks, more of a nice thing to do for applicants then anything else. Programs have changed, and all I can say is it's about time. EQIP is way better then the old EPSQ program. If none of that makes sense, then you aren't a security manager or know how this system works.

I also don't know of any security managers that deal with the above mentioned higher levels of TS clearance. There has to be a paper trail somewhere to be used against them if a security incident happens. Better yet, there has to be an official form that is approved by the gov't, signed by the applicants and kept on file somewhere. The gov't doesn't do anything without a paperwork trail to bail them out incase someone does something illegal. So is this form classified? Does it really exist? It was posted above that Lazar signed forms that took away his constitutional rights. I would really like to know what form that is.

Getting cleared for the amount of access that is discussed on this thread would require someone to sign off for Lazar's interim clearance until his official investigation is adjudicated. I would like to know who granted his interim clearance, who investigated him, and who adjudicated his clearance. I hope that someone can at least post what agency did any of these to help prove his claims. That is if the process is the same for these talked about higher level TS clearances.

What would be really good is to know who he put down as "People who know you". These are the folks that are contacted during the investigation and asked questions about you, and one of them has to have known you for the entire scope of the investigation. All initial TS clearances require a 10 year background check and they don't like you using a family member as that reference but will except one if that is all you can provide. Once again, this is if they use the regular process.

The reason why some investigations take longer then others depends on the info you provide. Those who have filled out an SF86 will easily understand this. If all your relatives live outside the US it will take longer to contact them then it would if they all lived in the US. I hope that helps explain why some get cleared in a few months and others take years. Maybe these upper level TS clearances have a special investigative office that can finish up in a few days?

I would like to see any of the people involved with his clearance come forth and talk about it. I don't care about the people that worked on these projects(if it really happened), I care more about the folks that let him work on these gov't projects with or without a proper clearance.

Here is what I can put together from reading all these posts. They let Lazar walk in, without a proper background investigation, and work on the most highly classified technology we have, then let him leave and talk about it to the public.

What do you think would happen to someone who did this with stealth technology before it was released to the public? I think he would be locked up for life or executed. This is a point that I find hard to understand.

If Lazar really worked on classified technology those who cleared him should be arrested and put in jail for letting him talk about what he did. Somone(s) gave him the go ahead to work there. So have any of those folks been charged yet?

Originally posted by Schaden

"There are gradient levels above top secret such as 20 levels above ts, 21 levels above ts etc"

"But nobody knows about them because they are classified 20 levels above ts"
ROFL

Originally posted by Schaden
Anything compartmented at the ts level is sensitive. Some compartments may have tens of thousands of people. Others may have less than a dozen. But there is no way to label one compartment above another unless you want to talk about compartments within compartments, but I don't think it's reasonable to believe that compartments within a compartments could go on for 30+ iterations.

Well maybe there isnt 30+ iterations.. maybe they just choose random numbers instead of say 1,2,3,4.. just a thought.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by chris01621

Has this been stated by Bob Lazer or did he say that the greys live on planet #4(or serpo I think) in the zeta reticuli system???

Bob said that in the briefings he read at S-4 that it said that the 'greys' come from Reticulum 4, the fourth planet out from Zeta Retuiculi 2. Bob never mentioned the name 'Serpo" which I believe to be a fabrication for an upcoming information scam about Reticulum 4 and the greys.

Mr Lear, firstly I would like to thank you for taking time to participate in my forum and for putting up with these people who just want to throw insults and bad jugments around.

Secondly I would like to say from researching Bob Lazar I came across "project serpo" so i looked that up, this is were I found out about the majestic 12 and the finer details of project serpo. It was stated that it's called project serpo because the planet was called serpo. I know that the files Lazar read only had numbers for the planets but i'm sure someone perhaps from the planet named them.

I would like to know if you have any comments or futher statments about project serpo.

I'm aware of the rotational characteristics of the moon. I've taken university level astronomy. Dark side of the moon is just a phrase. I admit I'm in error if your so called soul collector is not on the far side. You say it's photographic and scientific fact this 6 mile high tower exists. May I ask to see evidence ?

LO3-84M. There must be a thousand sites on the web.





Mr Lear Can you tell me the purpose of this structure. The sites i've found are just confirmation that it is or is not there.

Originally posted by chris01621

Secondly I would like to say from researching Bob Lazar I came across "project serpo" so i looked that up, this is were I found out about the majestic 12 and the finer details of project serpo. It was stated that it's called project serpo because the planet was called serpo. I know that the files Lazar read only had numbers for the planets but i'm sure someone perhaps from the planet named them.

I would like to know if you have any comments or futher statments about project serpo.

Thanks Chris. I never heard Bob mention the name Serpo or Planet Serpo. I believe there was, in fact, a mission to Reticulum 4 in the late 60's or early 70's but I believe that only 3 went.

I believe that the current web mentioned Project Serpo is a government disinformation program to deal with he greys. There are so many stories out there about the greys that it is becoming evident to the US Gov. that they have to respond in some way. I believe they fabricated this Project Serpo deal to make the public think that (1) Yeah we know all about them as a matter of fact we sent an expedition with 12 people to Serpo and yeah, its just a mom and pop planet with little Serpoese running around and yeah they play soccer just like us and yeah, they tell time with a sun dial and (2) but its way too hot....you wouldn't want to go there.

The fact is that the greys are cybernetic organisms here to monitor the human race for and on behalf of another group. (see: Are Extraterrestrials Real? As Real As the nose on your Face). The greys do not reproduce but are like glorified robots. They do the abductions and 'tweakng' (whatever that 'tweaking' may involve.)

But the government, not having any clue, or unwilling to accept the truth, want to step out in front and 'spin' the 'truth' their way. Star Wars was or maybe still is an arrogant, ineffectual attempt to 'get rid of the greys'.

To give you an example of how completely arrogant and stupid the secret government is in the middle or late 80's they were given 500 pounds of element 115. Instead of using for something useful they made a bomb that could blow up an area half the size of South America and then threatened the owners of the greys with "Either you help us get rid of the greys or nobody is going to have earth", meaning, of course, that we were going to blow ourselves up. Obviously it never happened, probably here was an intervention, and Project Serpo is the result. This is the kind of mentality that is in charge of the secret government.

Thank you for your info on serpo, but can you say anything about this "soul collecter" is it? this structure on the moon.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by chris01621]

Originally posted by NJ Mooch

Getting cleared for the amount of access that is discussed on this thread would require someone to sign off for Lazar's interim clearance until his official investigation is adjudicated. I would like to know who granted his interim clearance, who investigated him, and who adjudicated his clearance. I hope that someone can at least post what agency did any of these to help prove his claims. That is if the process is the same for these talked about higher level TS clearances.

You bring some really good information to the table NJ Mooch. Dr. Teller was the head of the S-4 program and he's the one Lazar called to get the job. Dr. Teller may have greased the skids. The max effort on Lazar's clearance was to replace the 2 scientists killed when they attempted to cut open an operating anti-matter reactor. Several months after Lazar left the program Dr. Teller did a "Star Wars" interview in Florida. Unbeknownst to Teller the producer (who had read about the Lazar deal) of that show contacted Lazar. When Teller arrived at the studio the producer and cameraman had a camera running unknown to Teller. They began asking Teller some soft ball questions as if preparing for filming (the camera was already running). They talked a little about Star Wars and then the producer said, "And if I asked you if you knew Bob Lazar?" Teller looked around, knew he had set up and then, in then unflappable Teller way said, "I will sit silently...." This clip is in the Lazar video tape.

I would like to see any of the people involved with his clearance come forth and talk about it. I don't care about the people that worked on these projects(if it really happened), I care more about the folks that let him work on these gov't projects with or without a proper clearance.

I have many friends that still work at the test site and I can assure you that anyone even mentioning the name Lazar is on his way out. I see no possibility of anyone onvolved in Lazar's clearance coming forth. You seem tuned in. Make some calls. Particular with anyone working for EG&G. Ask about Lazar.

Here is what I can put together from reading all these posts. They let Lazar walk in, without a proper background investigation, and work on the most highly classified technology we have, then let him leave and talk about it to the public.

What do you think would happen to someone who did this with stealth technology before it was released to the public? I think he would be locked up for life or executed. This is a point that I find hard to understand.

If Lazar really worked on classified technology those who cleared him should be arrested and put in jail for letting him talk about what he did. Somone(s) gave him the go ahead to work there. So have any of those folks been charged yet?

You should understand that once Bob went on Las Vegas Channel 8, 5 o'clock news April 11, 1989, and started talking about flying saucers and S-4 the littlest, tiny squeek the government would have made would have given instant credibility to his claims. Now there might have been some recrimination in the back room but nothing public. No, the only choice they had was to keep their mouths shut.

And thanks for your excellent update on security clearances.

Mr. Lear there is not nor has there been two S4 location in or anywhere near groom.

Bob first "visit" to this so called S4 research facility was in fact on a bus with no windows where he was blindfolded until ordered to remove the blinder, which was only after he was inside the main facility receiving room.

Who told him he was in S4....

He was given the drug panel then..

He was brought there and was allowed to see some "engineering samples" then he was asked some theoretical questions about advanced propulsion.

They took down some notes.

They asked him to try and think of how it could operate and then was escorted "off base" again.

They brought him back for a total of three visits over the course of four weeks.

on the last visit he had another drug panel with a different cocktail this time.

several years later Bob would begin to leak a distorted vision of what he saw.

Robertfenix. If you are willing to beleive all of this Mr Lear has stated that Lazar took him and a few others to this site and have witnessed some saucer activity. Please can you show us all this evidence that there is only 1 s-4 site, Being the bomb range.
The sad fact of the matter is that we can only go on word of mouth until we see it for our selves. I am willing to believe Lazars story but we have to have open minds about it>

[edit on 20-8-2006 by chris01621]

Just a theory!
Refering to the "aliens" altering our DNA over the years and using us as containers for genetic purposes, Maybe this is why the ancient myans up and dissapeared over night. If my theory is correct then they obviously weren't happy with the current model, wiped the slate clean and started again. I'm sure you see what i'm saying, but it is just a theory.

Originally posted by robertfenix

Mr. Lear there is not nor has there been two S4 location in or anywhere near groom.

The one east of Sperm Lake about 90 northwest of Groom Lake and the one Bob went to on the eastern shore of Papoose Lake.

Bob first "visit" to this so called S4 research facility was in fact on a bus with no windows where he was blindfolded until ordered to remove the blinder, which was only after he was inside the main facility receiving room.

The bus had windows but they were blacked out. I don't remember Bob saying he had on a blindfold because the way he knew it was Papoose was by looking through the drivers window. When Jon Farhat (sp?) did the computer 3-D drive from Groom, time versus distance versus heading versus what Bob was able to see through the front window they came up with the eastern shore of Papoose.

Who told him he was in S4....

Dennis Marianna

He was given the drug panel then..

He was brought there and was allowed to see some "engineering samples" then he was asked some theoretical questions about advanced propulsion.

They took down some notes.

They asked him to try and think of how it could operate and then was escorted "off base" again.

They brought him back for a total of three visits over the course of four weeks.

His first trip to S-4 was December 6, 1988. His last trip was shortly after the intercepted calls between his wife and her flight instructor boyfriend. He was told that until he straightened out his personal life that he couldn't work at S-4. It could have been 4 weeks which would make it January 6, 1989 or around there. But I thought his last trip to S-4 was later. I remember getting a panic call from Bob that I needed to over to his house right away. He asked me if I could give Jackie, his wife. flight instruction. I told him that I was out of currency as a flight instructor and it would take me several weeks to get up and current. He didn't tell me why but eventually it turned out that he had just been informed of his wife's dalliance with the flight instructor and he thought he could stop that affair by having me give her flight instruction. I took both Bob and Jacqui in the jump seat of an L-1011 from Las Vegas to Minneapolis and back February 9. Jackies parents lived in Minneapolis and she saw them for the brief period of the turnaround there.

on the last visit he had another drug panel with a different cocktail this time.
several years later Bob would begin to leak a distorted vision of what he saw.

What was the leak and how did he do it? I'm surpised he remembers anything several years after the second drug cocktail.

Originally posted by Springer
Read this-------->First Hand Info on Bob Lazar

George Knapp is the Television News Reporter who broke the Bob Lazar story and consequently brought "Area-51" into the public mind back in the day. George is very straight shooter and very serious investigator that doesn't get impressed easily.

I've gotten to know George over the past several months through hundreds of personal emails between us and I assure you he believes Bob Lazar has much "under the surface" that he doesn't express in public.

Since you asked for "personal opinions" one Bob Lazar here's mine...

One of the things about Lazar that has always kept me on the fence about him is the fact he has not ever tried to capitalize on his fame. Not once has he tried to sell a book, TV or movie deal, DVD, he doesn't even hit the "Tin Foil Speaker Circuit" for the lousy few bucks you can make on that lowest level venue AKA "UFO Conventions"...

Every other hoaxer, con man, charlatan, and true believer with a story that has achieved any notoriety at all has at least gone and done the cheese ball derby at the UFO Conventions.

NOT Bob Lazar though.

Those who claim he is a "Disnfo Agent" have not kept up with his latest round of persecution from the Feds, I simply don't buy that angle at all. The government is pretty lame when it comes to doing anything well but they aren't that incompetent.

A real Disinfo Agent's general assignment is to deflect attention away from something. Assuming the USG wanted to deflect attention away from their latest generation military gadgetry back then they certainly wouldn't have used Bob Lazar and they sure as hell wouldnt have allowed him to take people out to the Papoose Range to watch said gadgetry FLY, IMHO...

Not to mention they would have made sure Bob was disclosing pure bollocks instead of actual produce.

Element 115, no matter what anyone says about it was talked about 20 years before the public was allowed to know about it by ONE MAN, Bob Lazar.

The critics rant about the fact the stuff doesn't "stay" in this reality for more than a few seconds and that's true but it doesn't alter the FACT Bob Lazar told us about 20 years ago and these same critics were laughing at him and calling him a loon back then because they said it was a fairy tale element, "could never happen" and so on.

Bob Lazar is one of the "enigmas" that defies easy explanation out of hand. He's one of the most interesting cases in UFOlogy IMHO and I don't think we'll ever really know exactly what that means to us.

Springer...

Bob Lazar is legitimate. I trust my gut insticts on this one.

I'm unsure about this soul collector (LO3-84M) thing can someone tell me is this supposed to be an alien structure or man made structure.I cant find a single bit of info saying what it is, just that it's there. The shard and the cube.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by chris01621]

Ok I think I get it now.
What if the shard is a long meteorite that crash into the moon and the cube is debris that has been sent up a bit too high out of the grav pull of the moon and is just sitting there. Again just a theory.