Why do non 33 degree masonic members rant about what all the symbolism & secrets mean

Scarey that it resounds the literature of the principles of Zion, but yes a new machine has arisen I agree, it just upsets me that it has been allowed to take hold, I pray that all will awake to see the danger before it is too late.

wow never thought i would be ignored for the milliont time
Question: why do you people care more about arguing stuff nobody can answer for sure then looking at the big picture???
It is great to see so much interest in this subject offcourse, and it is verry interesting to hear all the peoples perseption of things, but it is as pointless as arguing if god is and entity, energyform, airwave, or DNA structure, or alien.
NOOBOOODDYYYY KNOOOOWWWSSSSSS, the ultimate secret society (if there is one) WILL BE SECREEETTTT.
MASONS AREN'T BADGUYS, AND NOT ALL MASONS ARE THE SAAAMMMEEEE.
tHERE MAY BE EVIL DUDES UP IN THE 33 DEGREE MASONS, YOU DON'T KNOWWW.
You hear on the news constantly of good people, neighbours, friends, people who are respected or liked by lots of people, who turned out to be killers or child molesters.
Why would this be any different in an secret society, how can you tell people that nothing is the matter, do you know ALL the masons?
no you don't.
Does this mean that all the masons are evil??
no it does not, most likely 99% of them aren't.

Let me explain the meaning of secret society, it is a society that is secret, so nobody knows it or what it represents, masons are well known, WHY THE F WOULD THEY WANNA TAKE OVER THE WORLD WHEN EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO THE MEMBERS ARE AND WHAT THERE DOING.
Cause masons are a FRONT.

Don't let them do this, they have already managed to turn every religion against eachother, don't let them do the same with other stuff.
We need to UNITE if we want to get a chance of surviving the onslaught witch may come verry soon, not saying it is gonna happen, but it MAY happen.
We cannot afford to be dIvided, DIVIDE AND CONQUER!
That is PRECICALLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD!!!!!!
The entire world is being divided, political, economical, religious, even clubwise, not only masons but even sports, people are to busy fighting over absolutally NOTHING then to look at the bigger picture and notice they are being divided.

UNITED WE STAND, remember this, masons, muslims, christians, jews, athieists, buddhists, republicans, democrats, gamers, skaters, 'n-word's, or whatever you can think of, WE ARE ALL HUMANS, WE ARE ALLLLLLLL, let me say this one more time
AAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL enemy's of the new world order (if it will come to pass), think of chipping, think of the georgia guidestones i think it was, you know 75% depopulation or something like that.
Do you really think it matters if your with some religion or club????
Ow btw, remember anything being said about one world religion, all the world unite, no more secret society's maybe??
So in the end does all this yappin about if masons are evil or not really made any difference??
In the end does it really matter if you knew that 33% masons are not all evil, or if they where???
In the verry end, aren't we all just brothers in arms???

Originally posted by solidgear
Pike's real religious beliefs were Episcopalian, Who told you this, a member of the brotherhood?

Pike was a Communicant of Christ Episcopal Church in Washington, D.C. He was an adult Sunday school teacher there, and they still have a portrait of him up in their library (Pike donated the funds to help start the library).

how do you know what to interperet from what was said, & how do you know he was tellin the truth?

I've been studying Pike for a long time (i.e., many years). Now I can't say for sure, but from your comments I must assume that you've not read one of his books, much less all of them.

I recently inquired about joining my local lodge here in Staten Island. The Lodge is very old, and it's one of America's first I believe. It's located near the Conference house where the bill or rights was written. The town it's located in is called Tottenville. It's one of the first areas in the US in which our fore fathers called home. Im drenched with history living here, and the Mason at the temple gave me a pamphelet and in no way is this about satan worshipping...give me a break.

Lucifer might be the devil to most christians, but the bringer of light could never be evil unless converted into a devilish many years after the origins of the word and/or character.

hmmm, correct me if im worng but isn't the 33rd degree an honorary degree?
also there is verry little to their degree system as i used to work with a 3rd degree mason and my next door neighbor was a 32 degree mason
neither of them were any more enlightened than a door knob
also one of my friend's dad's is a mason, 32nd degree

the 3rd degree showed me his membership card
i saw the 32nd degree in uniform walking out of his house a few times and asked him about it

turns out the program is much like cub scouts/boy scouts/eagle scouts
infact all 3 of the mason's i know personally were in these organizations

free masonary is nothing more than a social club for guys who need that sort of thing

a few more bits:
*any man can join
*there are membership dues
*essencially began as a union for stone masons
*secret entrance rituals do exist (when i questioned the 3rd degree about this he didn't say much and got really quiet, anything else he was open to talk about but not this, to me not answering a pointed question confirms that they do exist)
*there are books available that detail all the masonic rituals, you can find them at almost any bookstore
*any religion can join as long as you believe in the christian/jewish/islamic god
*pagans and women are not accepted
*can jump several degrees at a time
*overall time to 32nd degree is something like 6 months or less if you really work at it
*degree advancement includes but is not limited to reading and tests on what you read, pass the tests and congradulations, you are up a few levels

all this information came from actually talking with some real masons
yes they are sworn to secrecy, but after 7 hours of waiting for something to do at work you run out of things to talk about and sacred vows of silence are put on hold while the need for conversation increases
any and all of these points can be found online or obtained by actually talking with masons instead of blindly calling them witches and burning them alive

there is nothing evil or satanic about the organization
evil or satanic people have happened to be freemasons on occasion

it's not rare that large groups sometimes have bad people among them
a few bad apples spoiling the bushel and what not

Originally posted by wondernut
*any religion can join as long as you believe in the christian/jewish/islamic god
*pagans and women are not accepted

Well I know of several Thelemic Masons, in fact one posts here from time to time, and I promise you they don't "believe" in the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god. And Thelema could be called a pagan belief.

The requirement is for belief in a supreme being, but I'll agree if your supreme being is not the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god you might not get all you could out of being a mason.

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
I recently inquired about joining my local lodge here in Staten Island. The Lodge is very old, and it's one of America's first I believe. It's located near the Conference house where the bill or rights was written. The town it's located in is called Tottenville. It's one of the first areas in the US in which our fore fathers called home. Im drenched with history living here, and the Mason at the temple gave me a pamphelet and in no way is this about satan worshipping...give me a break.

Lucifer might be the devil to most christians, but the bringer of light could never be evil unless converted into a devilish many years after the origins of the word and/or character.

lucifer was the angel of the air, led a rebellion against god as was cast out of heaven as punishment along with 1/3 of the angels
satan tricked eve into eating of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" who inturn gave some to adam
this was done to spoil god's creation

the bringer of light was prometheus who, in greek mythology, stole fire from the gods and brought it to man
this was done to help mankind survive winter's cold
also, prometheus was the creator of man

intrestingly, the christian god equates roughly to prometheus where the christian satan equates to zeus
prometheus, the creator of man, gives fire (knowledge)
zeus takes what was meant for good and turns it evil to spite prometheus

Originally posted by wondernut
hmmm, correct me if im worng but isn't the 33rd degree an honorary degree?

Quite simply, yes. There is a such thing as an "Active Member" which means that one is an Officer in the Supreme Council (the governing body of the 4th - 33rd Degrees) Inspectors General-Honorary are privy to sit in meetings of the Active Members of the Supreme Councils.

also there is verry little to their degree system as i used to work with a 3rd degree mason and my next door neighbor was a 32 degree mason
neither of them were any more enlightened than a door knob

That's a shame for them, but there IS quite a bit to our degree system actually.

the 3rd degree showed me his membership card
i saw the 32nd degree in uniform walking out of his house a few times and asked him about it

Likely he was a Knight Templar (of the York Rite) Unless you are outside the U.S.A. 32nd Degree members don't ordinarily wear a uniform per se. Except for costumes when conferring the degrees, but these are kept at the Scottish Rite building until needed.

turns out the program is much like cub scouts/boy scouts/eagle scouts
infact all 3 of the mason's i know personally were in these organizations

Yes, Masons tend to be active in social and community organizations.

free masonary is nothing more than a social club for guys who need that sort of thing

While it can serve that purpose, it is actually MUCH MORE for "guys who need that sort of thing"

a few more bits:
*any man can join

Not so. A man must be judged to be of good morals, can't be a convicted felon, etc. There are those who consider a male 18 years of age to be a grown man, but some State Grand Lodges still require a Mason to be 21 years old.

*there are membership dues

Yep.

*essencially began as a union for stone masons

Actually that's never been proven. Some Masons believe it did, some believe otherwise. I personally believe otherwise.

*secret entrance rituals do exist (when i questioned the 3rd degree about this he didn't say much and got really quiet, anything else he was open to talk about but not this, to me not answering a pointed question confirms that they do exist)
*there are books available that detail all the masonic rituals, you can find them at almost any bookstore

Most (not "all") of the basic rituals can be found. I've never seen the current Scottish Rite Rituals (4th - 33rd) degree available to the general public. There are some publications that *claim* they are the real thing, but they are NOT the degrees that the Scottish Rite confers upon her members.

*any religion can join as long as you believe in the christian/jewish/islamic god

Actually you just have to believe that there is ONE God, who is the Creator and sustainer of all and in an afterlife.

*pagans and women are not accepted

Although not recognized by the so-called "mainstream" Grand Lodges, Co-Masonry (Masonry for women) does exist. They confer the three Symbolic Degrees as well as several of the York Rite and all the Scottish Rite Degrees.

*can jump several degrees at a time

Not in every branch. In the Scottish Rite it is possible to receive the 4th - 32nd Degrees in one day. I don't recommend this, though as one tends not to learn much in a one-day class.

*overall time to 32nd degree is something like 6 months or less if you really work at it

See above

*degree advancement includes but is not limited to reading and tests on what you read, pass the tests and congradulations, you are up a few levels

Actually not really. In some jurisdictions after election, one need only "show up" to receive degrees. There's no reading, no tests, no memorization at all.

all this information came from actually talking with some real masons
yes they are sworn to secrecy, but after 7 hours of waiting for something to do at work you run out of things to talk about and sacred vows of silence are put on hold while the need for conversation increases

There are no "sacred vows of silence" If someone told you that, they were pulling your leg (so to speak) Masons can and do speak openly about Masonry. The only real secrets are secrets that exist in the heart of a Mason. Those can never be told.

any and all of these points can be found online or obtained by actually talking with masons instead of blindly calling them witches and burning them alive
there is nothing evil or satanic about the organization
evil or satanic people have happened to be freemasons on occasion

Excellent point! Thanks.

it's not rare that large groups sometimes have bad people among them
a few bad apples spoiling the bushel and what not

Another excellent point. As long as there are humans involved in an organization, it will be FAR from perfect.

well now if you were faithfull to the cause but not so bright do you think you would be as encouraged in the craft as say the more intalectual? If it's a secret society, are all going to be enlightened on the same things? there are layers to the knowlage dispensed, & as said before, if the masons came out & said there roots & deep teachings stem from the occult, many people would leave & give much cause for concern. Now if you look at the history, I'm sure masons get told there brotherhoods heritage, but if it's secret, why tell it honestly? the best secrets are those untold or construed. there are so many different versions of history out there & I'll be slammed for not towing there official line.

he Legendary Period
According to the legends contained in the rituals of Freemasonry, the origins of the Masonic fraternity date from the construction of the Temple of King Solomon, as described in the Bible. The undertaking was so vast that a new form of organization was required to ensure that the Temple was completed in a timely and correct fashion, and this led to the development of organization of the stonemasons and architects into various grades and classes with responsibilities as described in the rituals.

Many of the characters mentioned in the books of Kings and Chronicles in the Hebrew Scriptures are encountered in the context of various degrees of Masonry; they include King Solomon himself, Hiram (King of Tyre, who supplied many of the materials, especially cedar wood, used to construct the temple), Adoniram, and others.

Some of the degrees of the Scottish Rite and other now-defunct degrees date to even earlier periods and other cultures, such as the times of the Israelites' wanderings in the wilderness (Book of Numbers) and the mythologies of the Ancient Egyptians, as well as the immediate postdiluvian period of the sons of Noah.

Although some Masonic brothers may take the ritual to be historical truth, there are no true Masonic authorities who give any credence to an actual organization of Masons in ancient times.

What is known is that there were fraternal organizations of the ancient world, both among the pagans and among the Hebrews. In the former case, the organizations were generally connected with the so-called mysteries, of which the Eleusinian Mysteries were among the best known. The most prominent example of the latter is the group known as the Pharisees.

“Masonry is regarded as the direct descendant, or as a survival of the mysteries... of Isis and Osiris in Egypt...”
- Robert Freke Gould, Past Senior Grand Deacon of England, Master of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No.2076, Vol. 1, p. 13, History of Freemasonry; New York, 1884




“Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled ...”

“The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.” (pp. 104, 105 & 819)


Okay, call yourselves what you will, Lokk at northern Ireland, Full of Lodges & promotes bigotry & hatred on catholics(Now that is evil)

Samuel Liddel "MacGregor" Mathers (January 1854 – November 1918) a Freemason, a Rosicrucian and an adept occult magician. Mathers was one of the most influential occultists in modern times. Along with Dr. Wynn Westcott, he founded the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. On the Golden Dawn, Wikipedia has this to say: "The 'Golden Dawn,' as it is commonly referred to, was probably the single greatest influence on 20th century western occultism.

documented proof of the evil of the craft

Originally posted by solidgear
documented proof of the evil of the craft

Well, the jury is in. You've obviously made up (and closed) your mind.

At this juncture, what can we do for you? You'll not sway those of us who are actually members, who've ACTUALLY UNDERGONE the initiatory ceremonies of Freemasonry by spewing information you've read (or worse-yet) heard from some third party who has NEVER ACTUALLY UNDERGONE the ceremonies.

And obviously we (ACTUAL ACTIVE MEMBERS OF THE FRATERNITY) will obviously never change your mind.

So again, what can we do for you here? The topic you've brought up has been discussed ad nauseam on this site so there's nothing new to talk about. If you're interested go back into the archives of this forum and read them for yourself.

Outside of that, this thread is useless to all.

Oh, and I truly AM sorry you feel this way about Freemasonry, but it's your choice.


"Religious Tolerance, Political Freedom, Personal Integrity
Freemasonry; It’s not for everybody"

well justify the occult link too me, & the ongoing bigotry of protestants in many lodges of northern ireland, come on justify the teachings?

& justify how a bible believing individual can call such groups brothers-related through the craft, you do alot to say how negative my views are, but all you keep saying is were a fraternity who help each other out for the good of mankind, explain how the good of mankind comes form secrecy, & especially as a christian, no secret is hidden from the God of abraham, so why try?

please, your "documented proof" is about as valid as saying catholic priests rape little boys

yes, it is true in some circumstances, but primarially it is the exception to the rule

in general 99.9% of masons are good people with nobel thoughts and goals
it is that 0.1% of them that causes all the trouble for the rest of them

as for the atrocities of the founding fathers, one need only look back on america's history of slaughtering, cheating, and enslaving along with burning witches

these people are essencially glorified boyscouts

do you live in ireland? no?, so you don't see it first hand, Don't push the subject of loyalist protestants in northern irish lodges who believe they are the desendants of king david & go about securing jobs for there own, & leave catholics on the fringes, where is the unity there, but if they visited your lodge, i'm sure you would welcome them with open arms. explain the occult side of the masonry too me? Golden Dawn, or are you gonna pretend it doesn't exist?

Don't dodge these issues face em & explain, you have nothing to hide right?

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by wondernut
*any religion can join as long as you believe in the christian/jewish/islamic god
*pagans and women are not accepted

Well I know of several Thelemic Masons, in fact one posts here from time to time, and I promise you they don't "believe" in the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god. And Thelema could be called a pagan belief.

The requirement is for belief in a supreme being, but I'll agree if your supreme being is not the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god you might not get all you could out of being a mason.

reguarding thelma, that was created by crowley who was a mason
therefore thelma is essencially an offshoot of free masonary which in turn is essencially an offshoot of judaism and christianity as it was suposedly founded by jews and christians to rebuild the temple
christianity in turn stems from judaism which dates back thousands of years
islam also was based largely off of judaism, infact the prophet went to the jews then to the christians with his message, being turned down by both of them he went off and founded it himself.

everything is connected in one giant mobius strip
the christian/jewish/islamic god was the same great spirit the native american's worshiped, was the unknown god of the romans, and was even represented as prometheus in greek mythology. the prometheus bit is a stretch as he was a titan not a god, but work with me here

given all this i wager all "supreme beings", as in god of gods, are the same god, the christian/jewish/islamic god

what it all comes down to are 2 basic fundamental principles
be excellent to each other, and party on dudes

got to go for now as it's bed time here, but thanks for all the replies.

as i said earlier:

Originally posted by wondernut
in general 99.9% of masons are good people with nobel thoughts and goals
it is that 0.1% of them that causes all the trouble for the rest of them

the golden dawn was formed by men who happened to be masons be did it outside of masonary

to judge the whole for an action of the part is moronic
that is the exact reason why islam is feared, a very few muslims have ruined it for the majority
that's the reason blacks are looked upon as lazy and untrust worthy, a very few have ruined it for the majority
the reason priests are not trusted with kids? you guessed it, a very few have ruined it for the majority
why can't you bring finger nail clippers on an airplane? a very few have ruined it for the majority
how many people does it take to crash a party?
how many people does it take to call you fat?
how many people does it take to burn a building down?
how many people does it take to blow somehting up?
how many people does it take to inflict harm on people?

see a pattern here?
a very few people can easily ruin a good thing it for everyone

this discriminitory view needs to end
blacks are very cool people and very trust worthy
jews and muslims have a huge amount of culture and will tell you fantastic stories about far off lands, they are also very trustworthy

just because 1 member of a group feels or acts one way does not mean the enitre group feels or acts that way

that is the best explanation of the golden dawn that you will get
if you don't like the way they treat you then tell them so, if that dont work throw rocks at them, always worked in the past...

Originally posted by wondernut

reguarding thelma, that was created by crowley who was a mason
therefore thelma is essencially an offshoot of free masonary which in turn is essencially an offshoot of judaism and christianity as it was suposedly founded by jews and christians to rebuild the temple

So what you are saying is if a mason starts it is by default Masonic?

the golden dawn was formed by men who happened to be masons be did it outside of masonary

And this basically contradicts what you said above. So what is true?

Anyway I have a feeling that your confusing Thelema with the O.T.O. two totally different things. One is a fraternal group and the other is a religion/philosophy. (That does not have judaeo-christian roots, it has more influence from Hinduism/Buddhism/and Egyptian beliefs than anything else.)

If anyone has read The Hiram Key, I think that book goes a long way in explaining not only the symbolism, but also the origins of Freemasonry and its relationship with Judaism, Christianity and the Templars.

Originally posted by solidgear
Why do non 33 degree masonic members rant about what all the symbolism & secrets mean, the only truly enlighted ones are those of the 33rd degree.

Why do you think this?

The 33rd degree is an honourary one, its not part of the 'progression'.

Also, if a 32nd degree mason is clueless about what the symbols really mean, why isn't anyone else then? I mean, if only the 33s know, then we can only listen to the 33s, no?

Why 33 levels?

I have a theory.

Kachina
[edit on 8-8-2006 by Nygdan]

[apologies, i hit 'edit' rather than quote, and accidentally posted my comments in this post. I have edited it back to what it was originally. Again, apologies -nygdan]

[edit on 8-8-2006 by Nygdan]