Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Doesn't anyone have any comment about the video of Hersh being obviously edited just where the incriminating part of the speech claimed to be?

Yes ma'am, I knew that the despicable deeds in that jail were real and beyond human comprehension.

And I also believe that Mr. Rumsfeld knew about the details of what was going on in that jail.

We have some sick people in our government and in positions of power.

Originally posted by zorgon
But I do have a serious question... What is the alternative?

Either live up to our own standards or don't say we do. Toss the Geneva Conventions. Stop pretending that the US of A lives to a higher standard than the lowest terrorists. Get off our high horse.

We talk about how terrible these 'insurgents' and 'terrorists' treat 'our boys'. They torture them, cut their heads off and so on. How different is what Hersh alleges than what they do?

The alternative is to not do it. I know that may be not what people want to hear, but when our soldiers perform despicable acts like this on other people, children, women, innocent human beings, we become the terrorists. If these aren't terroristic acts, then I don't know what you'd call them.

When we use these means to force compliance, we have become them. The terrorists have won. We have joined their ranks.

Back on topic

www.newyorker.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

These next are explicit, these are the ones the Congress said weren't "That Bad" Some nudity, male hind end, if this is not allowed I will remove
images.google.com...://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abughraib2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.antiwar.com/news/%3Farticleid%3D2444&h=3 10&w=469&sz=40&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=ZEXHSpmGL88WRM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtorture%2Bpictures%2Bof%2BAbu%2BGhraib%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%2 6lr%3D

The abuses of what has happened at Abu Gharib is documented, it's on tape, pics and some people have went to jail for it, but even Rumsfeld said,

www.cbsnews.com...
(CBS/AP) Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld offered "my deepest apology" Friday to Iraqi prisoners abused by sadistic military personnel and warned that videos and photos yet to come could further inflame worldwide outrage.

"It's going to get a good deal more terrible, I'm afraid," he said glumly in congressional testimony televised throughout the Arab world as well as in the United States.

Thus far, no videos of abusive treatment have reached the public.

Now whether Rumsfeld was aware and also ordered it, IMO from what I have read he has been aware of it all, whether he actually ordered it, I don't know but I do know Seymore Hersh is one of the finest journalists we have and based on that fact, I believe him when he says Rumsfeld ordered it.

As to what happened to the soldiers I like everyone am horrified but not surprised. As many of us here have tried to point out inflicting torture on prisoners of war and not following the Geneva Convention rules on the treatment of prisoners or detainees is only going to come back to harm our own military (POWs) when captured.

That has always been a concern of most people here trying to reason on why the torture is wrong but too many just want to say their bad guys they deserve it and excuse the abuses but can't see the broader picture of who will end up paying for it, our own soldiers.

We here that have all tried to say the torture is wrong, that it is not just for the benefit of the captured enemy to maintain the Geneva Convention rules but for the benefit of our own military POWs. Whether this would have happened anyway I don't know but when you are torturing the POWs sometimes to death the enemy sees no loss in torturing & murdering their POWs if for no other reason than retalliation.

[edit on 22-6-2006 by goose]

edited - too hot headed reply

[edit on 22-6-2006 by Silk]

oh yumi.

so sad

So Yumi is an 'attention whore' because she posted something that I'm assuming you don't agree with?

Isn't that why we most of us are here? To discuss and debate these issues?

I think your post is highly insulting without contributing anything to the discussion. And using an image to insult someone else is just sad... use your words syrinx, use your words.

These three posters have in my mind made the best appraisal of this situation (and also Nygdan for the links )

Originally posted by twitchy
Welcome folks, welcome to the REALITIES of warfare. As shocking as this kind of thing is, it has happened in all wars around the world since the dawn of man. All you guys supported the 'war' can now have a good look at the symptoms of this sickness. You give a bunch of teenagers machine guns and killer instinct, pump em up on some hatred and ampehtamines, and turn em loose with an anything goes mandate, what do you expect to happen? Torture, massacres, children killed, it's the same story in every war. You wanted a war, now you have one and don't like the taste of it, eat it anyway. Yeah, we're toruring people. To what extent? Only the victims, god and the torturers themselves may ever know. Sleep well knowing democracy can be forced.

twitchy, you are awesome. Well said. One paragraph worth its weight in sarcastic gold.

Originally posted by pieman: You know what? They said the same thing the last time the pics came out, hell even I was like those can't be real its impossible, theyvare fakes...we are AMERICANS FOR CHRISSAKE! They were real , nothing was fake about them and I was wrong. Wether its true or not this time..it HAS occurred in the past and its not going to be forgotten easily. Its a scar that we will carry for a long time. No one has ever been able to say such things in the past about our honor during war, as it was always the other side doing such things. Americans have always been the first to condemn such things , not condone them or practice them. The only thing Abu Gharib and Gitmo will bring is retribution upon our men and women overseas.

PieMan states the truth here. Americans are the first to protest this sort of thing. How can we allow our military to torture people?

Originally posted by Strangerous:
FWIW I don't believe the evidence presented but when your Sec of Defense describes the Geneva Convention as 'cute', we have confirmed evidence of a sanctioned policy of prisoner abuse and of the blurring of lines of responsibilities between the Army and shadowy, deniable NGO / mercenary groups (resulting in abuse of POW's) people are going to believe the worst of your forces.
Very true. We have utterly lost the "hearts and minds" with the failure to uphold the geneva conventions particularly the article (in ALL of them) regarding treatment of prisoners.

Agreed. By dropping the genevas, Rumsfeld is now considered totally insane by the rest of the world.

The GWOT is fabricated people. The GWOT was carefully planned over decades before this, built and it is being carefully managed to produce JUST the very outrage you see here. This was all part of the plan lets remember that. When you let dumb hicks alone with "the bad guys", they are going to revert to pure Deliverance-type mentality as proven here. You all remember the Stanford Prison Experiment, right?

America has changed and most of the shrill sheeple in this thread who can't say anything except "No way!!" are really just scared to admit the truth. The military has been hijacked. You say not to blame Rumsfeld? You do realize the power this man has, right? Any screw-ups are on his head. He's being personally sued by detainees for chrissakes! He's the guy who could end all of this madness.

As for children being abused, we can see from Nygdan's links to torture pics that some heinous crap has been going down. Cigarette burns are clearly evident as well as one picture which seems to show drill-marks on a prisoner's buttocks. It's not usually lethal to have somebody drill a few holes in your glutes but it ain't something a human should do to another, is it? Also there is a pic which looks like two young girls being forced to show their breasts. Surely these idiots in the photos are not only cruel and sadistic, but also perverted. No doubt the worst is probably true.


[edit on 22-6-2006 by smallpeeps]

I fail to undestand why people are surprised this happens! It is war and the the US troops have already been pretty much proven to have murdered innocent unarmed kids and their families, but it is amazing to think that there has been no rapes???

Get real....bad # happens and the some of the US folk are nothing more than scum criminals as much as the terrorists are, and far worse imo than the ordinary iraqi law abiding citizen. At least the terrorists are honest enough to not try and hide behind lies and BS ideologies.

Some folk might see that if they pulled their heads out of their own arses.



[edit on 22/6/06 by Strodyn]

Humans rape animals all the time and nobody cares. I don't care about humans.

From what I understand the definition of Whore is a Male Prostitute, as said I am a woman, so not a Whore. Yes I am trying to dismiss such a petty post.

So, you went from "No way" to "Maybe" to "Well they killed someone so it is ok to rape children."

Hell, more time was spent on the title then children being raped.

Forgive me for not reading all the pages in this thread. I am chiming in with my response to the original post. If this is correct about the rape and what not then those responsible for the acts should be brought up on war crimes. Not some chump charge that we give them. Let them face the war crimes tribunal. That would extend to those that ordered it as well. I don't care how high up the chain it goes. If this goes back to Washington then hopefully the leaders of our military here will arrest those responsible and present them ot the tribunal as well to be charged and prosecuted. Let them face the death penalty for the deaths in that prison. Let them serve the time for the rapes. Garbage like that doesn't belong in a free society whether it be someone from Iraq or someone from the US.

That said.. how much faith should I have in a source like the Washington Post when accusing someone of something or Fox when it comes to a denial?

Originally posted by SIRR1
How F#@**%^g dare you even post something like this!

What about the 2 US soldiers who were tortured last week.

How about their screams when the terrorists cut their genitals off while they were still alive.

The soldiers torture is fact !

Your story is bull#.

Zomg! Meltdown!

smallpeeps - you are the man! I don't think there is anything left to say. Sometimes I am ashamed to be an...

Originally posted by zorgon
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning the torture of prisoners to extract information, especially if children are involved.

But I do have a serious question... What is the alternative? Do we just ask them nicely to tell us what we want to know? Do we just let them go and say "Have a nice day, please don't do it again?

To answer your question quite simply: CIA thats what we pay those dips for. To gain intelligence when you can't get it other ways. There is no need for that and if we can't get it like that , then we have to fight the old fashioned way using tactics and common sense. Whats the point in spending billions on spy sattelites and defense programs if the only way to get info is to beat or rape prisoners of war.


Pie

I am not certain which is more disturbing; Rumsfeld ordering these acts or the level of maturity and standard in this room.

This is a war unlike any war we have ever fought. There is no #1 enemy, there is no flag to capture, there is no country to save.

This is a war being fought on the grounds of ideals and religion. This is our best attempt to rid the world of terrorism.

This is a war being fought based on the ideal that there are horrible, extreme groups of people out there that will murder children in front of people, who will kill innocent men and women and behead soldiers who are trying to make a difference.

You DO NOT fight a war against an ideal by lowering yourself to the same brutal, ruthless and childish tactics.

Every time one of our soldiers commit a crime of hate, it recruits 1000 more insurgents/terrorists his unit or comapny will be fighting next month. It is critical, for the sake of the 99.999% of the troops over there who are good, well intentioned men and women, to gain the respect of the Iraqi people around them to stay safe and to get Iraq back on its feet.

This has become a war of perception, and the US must rely on it's perception as good, honest people who are there to make a difference.

With all of the hate flying around this forum, I loose hope that we will ever be able to fight this war successfully because if we can't find some sort of common ground with eachother, than we will never be able to defeat the dangerous and real threat that is terror.

RELAX.

If you all actually listen to eachother, you might learn something FROM BOTH SIDES!

I mainly read the first post.

I think the title of the thread is cheesy by slipping the "may have" in, and then saying a person ordered rape and sodomized. That is clearly false, and agenda pushing in my opnion. It is not as sexy as "Abuses at the prison pictures and stories need to be investigated." People were hurt, but accusing someone of rape and sodomy is a stretch. And weak. The two links posted do not even back up the allegation made in the thread title.


Sure bad things were done at the prison. How many? As little as you want to believe, and as much as you want to believe. But probably in the middle. But peoples views sometimes has a way of increasing or decreasing a perception in there mind.

There are pictures,yes. Most of them are real. But I am a pretty good with photoshop and I bet a few......and I say a few.......let me repeat.....a few....are staged. Heck if many people believe that America faked 9/11. Why can't some people fake a few pictures to make America look bad?


People have been convicted of crimes for offenses with all of this. I don't know if we are rehashing old stories that have been resolved and someone just can't let go and has to post a thread. Or there are allegations that have not been looked into for possible abuses, and legal actions should be pursued.


I sure would like to see that memo that Rumsfield ordered Rape and Sodomy, since you seem so sure he "may have" ordered it. Or you "may have" been just trying to rape and sodomize our time.

War is just that. Murders,rapes, tortures, etc. It happened in all previous and will happen in all future wars. I'll always be proud to be an American regardless of what happened or happens. How many of you are really like you say you are to look good to everyone else here? What are you true thoughts?

Our military is made up of many different kinds of people from all walks of life. This puts different risks in different places. How does the gov't know when someone enlists that they may be a child molester, someone who enjoys torturing animals as a kid that eventually has the chance to do so to a human. Do we blame all Americans, the whole military for these actions? Some of you may but I don't. Some things in war are necessary and must be done. Now I'm not talking about raping anybody or killing for the fun of it so lets get that straight cause we know how people get here.

Did the gov't have to do with this? I don't know and will wait for more information. My opinion is no.

Originally posted by I See You
War is just that. Murders,rapes, tortures, etc. It happened in all previous and will happen in all future wars. I'll always be proud to be an American regardless of what happened or happens. How many of you are really like you say you are to look good to everyone else here? What are you true thoughts?

Then we have lost this war on terror already.

We can not invade a country claiming that Saddam was bad because he raped, tortured and killed people and then go in and rape, torture and kill people.

Originally posted by sbob

There are pictures,yes. Most of them are real. But I am a pretty good with photoshop and I bet a few......and I say a few.......let me repeat.....a few....are staged. Heck if many people believe that America faked 9/11. Why can't some people fake a few pictures to make America look bad?

What draws you to that conclusion? The fact that the Government was involved with the release of these self-damaging pictures seems to lend credence to their validity. What would the point be to fake them if there are already real pictures that prove the same thing? Could you support this with links to the pictures in question?

That just seems to be a bit over the top to prove something already documented was happening.