Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

Originally posted by zorgon
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning the torture of prisoners to extract information, especially if children are involved.

But I do have a serious question... What is the alternative? Do we just ask them nicely to tell us what we want to know? Do we just let them go and say "Have a nice day, please don't do it again?

We have not yet devised technology that will get the truth in a nice way, so what are we to do in defense of the Country?

What's wrong with giving them sodium pentathol (sp?) and strapping them into a lie detector? Would that work? It would seem alot less drastic than torture and rape.

Originally posted by curiousity
Dear grover,
take a pill, calm down, and read what you're writing before you post. I have no idea what your post is on about John McCain and could care less.

My posts aren't about whether or not the government did something reprehensible, it is about whether anyone can say annnnnnyy thing about any body with no proof, no credibility and get by with it.

What he is referring to is in 2000 the Bush campaign cold called voters in the South Carolina Primary and asked the question, "How would you feel if you knew John McCain had fathered and illegitemate black child." Or something to that effect. This question was underscored by the presence of McCain's adopted daughter who is (I think) from Bangladesh. It's a classic example of the Bush team turning something honorable into something salacious. (See: Kerry's war record.)

Grover is making the point that the Bush campaign *implied* blatant innacuracies about McCain and have never had to answer for it. So, Bush said whatever he wanted about whomever he wanted with no proof and no credibility and got away with it.... I believe that's the point.


What Bush did to McCain

Moving this thread to PTS for several reasons. Please continue your discussion there and try to stay on topic. Any issues please feel to u2 me.

[edit on 6-23-2006 by worldwatcher]

thank you SKM, that was my exact point....I took back the pig comment curiousity because the pig family had done nothing to be insulted so. YOU are the one who got on here and said you were reporting this thread to the White House like some goody two shoes in elementary school...not oh dear me I am going to ask them if its true or not bullhooey, like they would tell you in the first place. I love my country and I served it honorably thank you very much so just sit on it will ya...I don't need anyone like you telling me what a patriot is.

Originally posted by Swatman

to pay back for those 2 soldiers hopefully the U.S. covers up some *beheadings* themselves

Another person I assume to be a serviceman by their "Jarhead" avatar, saying it is OK to torture, behead and rape Iraqi children.

Just another piece of information which makes the original allegation of planned homosexual child rape more credible.

I blame the people at the top for fostering such and atmosphere of intolerance. This is going to come back and bite us for hundreds of years to come.

When 9/11 happened I was shocked and mystified (I'm a New Yorker). If we are attacked again I will understand why and be sad, but no longer shocked. I am afraid to say I am starting to feel as if we (the US) deserves to be attacked. Very sad.

Originally posted by opensecret1150
When 9/11 happened I was shocked and mystified (I'm a New Yorker). If we are attacked again I will understand why and be sad, but no longer shocked. I am afraid to say I am starting to feel as if we (the US) deserves to be attacked. Very sad.

Well, maybe we can turn this into something good in the end. Elect a government that at least attempts to be "American" in their ideology and then somehow someway bring some accountability to those responsible for crimes. This entire war could be used as a "how not to do things" learning experience for our military and our elected leaders.

Nahhh. You're right. We're probably doomed.

Originally posted by LovingSoul
I've spent the last few hours reading throught his thread from beginning to end. The mind boggles!! What scares me the most is that ANYBODY would think that there is EVER any reason to torture or abuse any human being - whether the torture is being perpetrated by or upon US troops is entirely beside the point. It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! There can never be any excuse or justification for these kinds of acts. Surely civilized society can see that tit for tat or an eye for an eye does not solve the proper, it only compounds it! Guys, have you never heard of turning the other cheek - no matter what wrong has been afflicted upon you, you should still have the GRACE to turn to that person and say "I feel very sorry for you, for the fact that you have debased yourself enough to want to hurt another human being (no matter their nationality, race, colour, creed or religion) and I just wanted you to know that God [or whoever you believe in] still loves you!"
There is nothing that deflates anger and negates hatred quicker than a show of love.
I'm not so naive that I think that, when confronted with a radical with a bomb, they are just going to say "Oh gee, sorry, here you go - you can take my bomb away from me because God loves me" but I think that if we all taught our children this way of thinking from day one, they at least will have a better world to live in than we do. Lets hope.

Alright. Imagine your child is missing, and you've got a serial killer on your hands who knows exactly where your child is stowed away. He won't tell you. If he doesn't tell you, your child will die. Time is running out. How do you get the information from him? There is no technology thus far that would make him give it up willingly/without violence. What do you do? You're dealing with a sick individual. Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing this guy to terrorists. I'm just putting forth an example of a situation in which torture/violence might come in as an option. Is there another way? What would you do?

While I understand your post and agree with you, while I've turned the other cheek many, many times,.... do you realize that parents all over the world have different methods of raising children? It is incredibly naive (though a sweet thought) to think that every parent on this planet will teach their children to be loving, and turn the other cheek. There are many people who grow up to be violent either because they didn't have parents to raise them, or because their parents weren't good at raising children. Maybe drugs will play a part. There are people who are born mentally challenged/sick who are prone to violence because they can't control themselves. Ideologies (even Christian!) can bring people to justify violence. Remember that Christians have been taken prisoner and beheaded, and that "Christians" have themselves killed in order to convert nations to their "loving" beliefs. They battled the Muslim nations who also tried to convert other/Christian nations to their (better) ways of life. I'm sure they tried to turn the other cheek and speak words of love. The world is not so simple. You're trying to send a beautiful message, but if you think this is possible anywhere in the next 500 years (short of wiping the world population out and starting new), you are sadly mistaken. If someone breaks into your home and tries to kill your child, will you turn the other cheek instead of disabling the intruder? It is easy to say such things, it is not so easy to practice them.
Even if this goal was achieved inside the U.S., we still have no control over the rest of the world, and how they choose to raise their children. If you think we can convert the rest of the world to our ways with love, you're mistaken. Many will resist, and violence may spread. Some people, some nations just can't be reckoned with. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you will understand why some wars happen. This is an incredibly complicated issue. This isn't black and white,... it has thousands of shades in between. Sad but true. Until the whole world becomes a "loving place", I'll understand that sometimes wars are a necessary evil. That's just my opinion of course.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by zorgon
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning the torture of prisoners to extract information, especially if children are involved.

But I do have a serious question... What is the alternative? Do we just ask them nicely to tell us what we want to know? Do we just let them go and say "Have a nice day, please don't do it again?

We have not yet devised technology that will get the truth in a nice way, so what are we to do in defense of the Country?

What's wrong with giving them sodium pentathol (sp?) and strapping them into a lie detector? Would that work? It would seem alot less drastic than torture and rape.

Sodium Pentathol doesn't actually make you tell the truth. It makes you drowsy, but you can still remain in control of what you say, if you want. It is a false belief that an effective "truth serum" actually exists. It doesn't guarantee that the person will tell you the truth. If it worked, don't you think they would have used it instead of applying torture? It would have avoided them plenty of scandal, and I think they'd be willing to invest a couple of bucks in this drug.
A lie detector can also be manipulated. Some people are very good liars. It has been known to happen. Again, the person may choose to simply not tell you where a location may be, or give up names, etc. He/she is not lying, he/she is just choosing not to talk.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Imagine your child is missing, and you've got a serial killer on your hands who knows exactly where your child is stowed away. He won't tell you. If he doesn't tell you, your child will die. Time is running out. How do you get the information from him?

I would plead and beg. I would appeal to his humanity.

What would you do? Sodomize him? Hook his genitals up to electrodes? I'm not sure I understand your point?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing this guy to terrorists.

Oh. Then disregard my suggestions above, but I'm still curious what you would do.

I'm just putting forth an example of a situation in which torture/violence might come in as an option.

An emotional mother, thinking she might be able to save her child might resort to violence - as in beating against his chest to try to get it out of him. I'm not sure sodomizing him would encourage him to tell her where her child is. Somehow, I think that would solidify his resolve NOT to tell her. But like you said, you're not comparing this to the torture of terrorists. (Although it sounds to me like you are.)

In any case, the measured torture of prisoners is so totally different than a mother whose child's death is imminent. Nothing is imminent. And the torturers don't know whether these prisoners actually have information or not. They're just hoping to get 'something' out of them. No specific information.

Is there another way? What would you do?

Sodium Pentathol. What would you do?

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Sodium Pentathol ... It doesn't guarantee that the person will tell you the truth.

Neither does torture.

If it worked, don't you think they would have used it instead of applying torture?

Not so sure about that.

Again, the person may choose to simply not tell you where a location may be, or give up names, etc. He/she is not lying, he/she is just choosing not to talk.

Or they can make stuff up under torture just to make it stop. Even if they don't have the information.

And what about those who don't have any information... What about the innocent ones? How do you feel about them being tortured?

Originally posted by dgtempe


How dare you??? Is it alright to use such evil??? Hell no. I didnt even read thru the thread

but let me tell you this. I fully believe the story by the original poster and its just pure unadulterated evil.

@#$!!! Beheadings is nothing compared to this. If we didnt have our arses where we dont belong, there would be no American casualties. I dont see them coming here and beheading us. "THAT'S BECAUSE BUSH PROTECTS US" (I can hear the choir)

I better get out of here before i blow the only gasket i have left.

This is why the O.P. of this post is now a banned member.

Also, remember you are operating under the assumption that this is a true report.

Don't believe everything you read.

Some of those here were soldiers once, and I can tell you that I would not and never did consider sodomizing anyone's child.

Originally posted by opensecret1150

Originally posted by Swatman

to pay back for those 2 soldiers hopefully the U.S. covers up some *beheadings* themselves

Another person I assume to be a serviceman by their "Jarhead" avatar, saying it is OK to torture, behead and rape Iraqi children.

Just another piece of information which makes the original allegation of planned homosexual child rape more credible.

I blame the people at the top for fostering such and atmosphere of intolerance. This is going to come back and bite us for hundreds of years to come.

When 9/11 happened I was shocked and mystified (I'm a New Yorker). If we are attacked again I will understand why and be sad, but no longer shocked. I am afraid to say I am starting to feel as if we (the US) deserves to be attacked. Very sad.

Here we go again. Go back and read all posts from me in these terrorist threads to understand what "we" are trying to say.

A. the rape of children is dubious if not an outright lie
B. the "torture" at Abu Gharib is not celebrated nor condoned by any of us (combatants)



[edit on 23-6-2006 by Tha Troubleshoota]

Originally posted by BadMojo
Yes, very funny stuff to me. I do concede to the photo with the guys arm cocked back...that's red-handed (no pun intended). Other than that, there is no evidence showing the origination of their wounds. They are photos...not videos showing the time of infliction. I find it funny that it doesn't take physical torture to break these cowards. I would prefer to be stacked on top of fellow servicemen naked than to have my fingernails pulled out and so on.

Silly liberals...breaking a prisoner down for interrogation...beats decapitation ANY day.

P.S. Nygdan, mixing truth with untruth does not make it all truth...

[edit on 23-6-2006 by BadMojo]

You cannot compare what some of our service members did (who are now in jail because of it) with anything the Muslim extremists are doing everywhere.

Originally posted by metalmessiah
can anyone be truly surprised if the worst thinkable were to be proven true in this case? the tactics being reported by Hersch are identical to the tactics admittedly employed in Honduras in '82. the protocol even seems eerily similar doesnt it? just google "selected issues relating to CIA activities in Honduras in the 1980's" for your sources/links. compare the photos from Nydgan's links to the CIA Inspector General's report on Honduras. as the Baltimore Sun put it in 1995 "...a secret CIA-trained Honduran army unit, Battalion 316, that used "shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners often were kept naked." we have been perfecting this procedure for a long time. the only surprise to me is it took this long to get caught!

CIA-trained and then went off and do what they've done for 100's of years.

We train and finance all sorts. Unfortunately, they do what they want and live by their own rules...especially in South America.

Originally posted by nikelbee
So Yumi is an 'attention whore' because she posted something that I'm assuming you don't agree with?

Isn't that why we most of us are here? To discuss and debate these issues?

I think your post is highly insulting without contributing anything to the discussion. And using an image to insult someone else is just sad... use your words syrinx, use your words.

Banned speaks for itself.

Some of those here were soldiers once, and I can tell you that I would not and never did consider sodomizing anyone's child.

Probably not, and this tells us what, exactly?

I'm sure 99.9% of the people in the US .mil wouldn't do such a thing even under orders to.
That doesn't mean that that other 0.1% aren't out there...

Originally posted by xmotex

Some of those here were soldiers once, and I can tell you that I would not and never did consider sodomizing anyone's child.

Probably not, and this tells us what, exactly?

I'm sure 99.9% of the people in the US .mil wouldn't do such a thing even under orders to.
That doesn't mean that that other 0.1% aren't out there...

The .1% sodomizing anything would not get away with it, just as the W. Virginia folks who are now in jail are finding out.

Just not happening, folks.

We've become demonized, while the extremists who have shown up in Iraq to commit murder and mutilation are felt sorry for. These aren't Iraqui commoners who are feeling oppressed, these are the same nuts that have been killing and torturing for centuries.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
If you think we can convert the rest of the world to our ways with love, you're mistaken. Many will resist, and violence may spread. Some people, some nations just can't be reckoned with.

And if you think we can convert them to our ways with hate and violence, you are out of your mind. Indeed they will resist and why not? If we choose to become Imperial America we will go the way of all empires: over-reach, revlolt and desintigration.

A bit of Leftist Propoganda

Originally posted by Tha Troubleshoota

Some of those here were soldiers once, and I can tell you that I would not and never did consider sodomizing anyone's child.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect you are a "straight shooter" and if you were still in the military you are exactly the type of person who would be kept "out of the loop" if henious actions were transpiring. I just cannot ignore the mountain of stories coming out about US actions in Iraq, Guantanamo, and also the current US prison sex scandals one here.

They simply lend credibility to the OP. My standard for believing such things now is quite low, and for good rational reasons imo.

Also if there are .1% soldiers capable of homosexual child rape in Iraq that is about 1500 persons.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by opensecret1150]

I know I'm no one important here but can I ask why Yumi was banned?

Also I would like to know what is to be done about members "reporting" members for posting their non-violent opinions? I can understand if someone has posted a direct threat to government members, other members of this site,hoax Embassy messages of doom, or even hoaxing an admission of aiding in a terrorist event, but to allow reporting of another member admittedly just because they are posting a message that is deemed by them to be negative should be a practice that should be squashed from the get-go. I think its a negative addition to a site that caters to conspiracy theories and the like. I also think it will invite negative attention to the site as well. .Just my humble opinion.

Pie