Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

Originally posted by nikelbee
I believe we are arguing two different things:

1. That torture took place (I think this has been proven)

2. That the torture was ordered by Rumi and co. (Yet to be proven)

To you point number 1: If I am not mistaken (and I may be), torture was not on the menu at Abu. The only thing that was charged were abuses. Abuse and torture are definately 2 different animals.

To point #2: I do not think there has ever been a proven connection or a chain of orders provided that shows DR ordered military personel to abuse or torture anyone in AG. I am sure that there is probably some orders out there for interrogations to begin but what orders DR gave and what the commanders in the field interpreted them as are two different things IMHO. The field commanders responsible for overseeing the actions of their subordinates should be the ones to pay for any wrongdoings at AG, not DR.

The accusation in the title of this thread is unfounded....and unproven. Deny Ignorance, eh?

Originally posted by dgtempe


The one who should be tarred and feathered should be Rumsfeld. Our men are under severe stress, 120 degree weather and they get their orders from the devil.
I do feel sorry for them. They dont deserve the blame.
The blame should go directly to this evil empire here.

Calm down DG. There is no tangible proof that this has happened. This is what I see happening a lot here, jumping to conclusions. I have done it myself but I TRY(Im only human) to stay away from it. How can anyone have a clear cut and dry opinion on this without all the facts, its pure hear-say and thats it until there is credible proof.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Calm down DG. There is no tangible proof that this has happened. This is what I see happening a lot here, jumping to conclusions. I have done it myself but I TRY(Im only human) to stay away from it. How can anyone have a clear cut and dry opinion on this without all the facts, its pure hear-say and thats it until there is credible proof.

Ludachris
You know what? They said the same thing the last time the pics came out, hell even I was like those can't be real its impossible, theyvare fakes...we are AMERICANS FOR CHRISSAKE! They were real , nothing was fake about them and I was wrong. Wether its true or not this time..it HAS occurred in the past and its not going to be forgotten easily. Its a scar that we will carry for a long time. No one has ever been able to say such things in the past about our honor during war, as it was always the other side doing such things. Americans have always been the first to condemn such things , not condone them or practice them. The only thing Abu Gharib and Gitmo will bring is retribution upon our men and women overseas.

Pie

Originally posted by ConstantlyWondering
...when only .001 percent of them deserve it. It truly cuts me to my soul to read the negative posting on our troops. If it is true than that would be worse but the sources don't seem to be reliable. If I am missing some credible link in this story please U2U me it so I can read it.

That's why disciplines and standards are important - actually imperitive.

It's down to the training you give your troops (ideally not from the IDF), the quality of officers and particularly NCO's (which is not good) and the intra-forces legal processes (again not a good record).

FWIW I don't believe the evidence presented but when your Sec of Defense describes the Geneva Convention as 'cute', we have confirmed evidence of a sanctioned policy of prisoner abuse and of the blurring of lines of responsibilities between the Army and shadowy, deniable NGO / mercenary groups (resulting in abuse of POW's) people are going to believe the worst of your forces.

You can't let your standards slip - even for just a minute - and then claim 'we would never do that'

Yumi,

This post is for you. I have contacted the White House with information about what you posted here. I didn't quote your post but I did give information about where it can be found.

Your freedom of speech is only valid if you are an American citizen or if the country you inhabit offers it. Your freedom of speech rights as an American end where slander begins.

I glanced at the two places you offered as your documentation and both are very shaky.

You do know slander is punishable in a court of law in America, don't you?

Washington Post is not credible? Videos and Audio of the rapes and sodomy happening is not credible? A Man who has dedicated his life, and won dozens of awards for it, who has exposed several cases like this, starting back in Vietnam, is not credible?

Again, Sorry if I can't get Sean Hannity or Molestor Reilly, I can only do with everyone else.

Also, someone else put up links to other places, let me find them, or since they aren't Fox News either you won't believe it?

www.thismodernworld.com...
www.slate.com...
www.swr.de...

There, or again, not Fox News you won't listen. hell if Fox News said Aliens landed in Iran and gave them lasers to kill people so you must invade now you would believe it wouldn't you?

curiosity u contacted the white house huh i think ur emotions are a little mixed up

yes two americans were mutilated and killed, is it possible to look there family in the eyes, give your condolenses and see those soldiers as brave indiviuals and at the same time be very skeptical of the military's treatment of iraqi's or does your BIBLE SAY AN EYE FOR AN EYE

I heard rumor of this when the Abu Graib scandal broke....and I pray it isn't so...If Rumsfeld is so cold as to order something like this he is no better than Hussian and his sons and SHOULD be tried as a war criminal. It is obscene simply obscene.

Ooh Yumi you're going to be sued for slander

I thought it was the 'land of the free'; but not of free speech?

Start a fighting fund, I'll send you a few quid mate and I'm sure many others will too.

LOL

Originally posted by Lost_Mind
To you point number 1: If I am not mistaken (and I may be), torture was not on the menu at Abu.

You are absolutely mistaken. Where have you been?

Torture at Abu Ghraib

I do not think there has ever been a proven connection or a chain of orders provided that shows DR ordered military personel to abuse or torture anyone in AG.

You don't think so, huh? If you care about the truth you need to do some research and reading.

Deny Ignorance, eh?

Yeah. Give it a try.

Originally posted by ConstantlyWondering
...when only .001 percent of them deserve it. It truly cuts me to my soul to read the negative posting on our troops.

I no more hold this against all of our troops than it reflects on them all. People are individuals and it's very important to realize that if this is happening or has happened, it's only a small percentage of people doing it.

Originally posted by Strangerous
You can't let your standards slip - even for just a minute - and then claim 'we would never do that'

You are so right!

[edit on 22-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by curiousity
I have contacted the White House with information about what you posted here.

Hey that's real cooth of you. Maybe you'll get a commendation and nice new uniform, comrade.



It also wouldn't hurt you to read the laws about LIBEL and Slander, and how they relate to public officials, you may be dispointed.

[edit on 22-6-2006 by twitchy]

this'll do it for me.

I like most of the dialog on here, and I'm always searching for another perspective just for enlightenment, but the insanity of some of these threads just leaves me disturbed.

thanks to 96% of you.

unbelievable.

Originally posted by curiousity
Yumi,

This post is for you. I have contacted the White House with information about what you posted here. I didn't quote your post but I did give information about where it can be found.

Your freedom of speech is only valid if you are an American citizen or if the country you inhabit offers it. Your freedom of speech rights as an American end where slander begins.

I glanced at the two places you offered as your documentation and both are very shaky.

You do know slander is punishable in a court of law in America, don't you?

Sorry about the long caption. Curiosity, in my opinion, you need to be banned from this sight. You need not be here. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches do moniter these threads, and this sight. You are a snitch! You need to be banned. This sight is for freedom of speech, and I don't recalling Yumi breaking any real laws. You should be banned for your obvious ignorance and total disrespect for this forum.

I think some people just want to cause a scene, true or not to get attention for their own political gain. The ACLU has no credibility, as they support groups like NAMBLA. The ACLU is as far left as you can go, so far left infact they are almost insane. The washington post I don't find credible either, they to often spread lies that they have no evidence for. Also I very much so doubt that the army would have allowed any kind of action except maybe a staged interogation when someone from the ACLU or washington post was arround, they know who is coming and they will put on a show to hide what ever it is they do. Believing what one news source says, especially about troops doing wrong should not be beilived at all until a full investigation is complete, other wise you prove to us all your own seeded hatred towards the U.S. On the other side though we must not deny that America would be inclined to torture for information, torture is not the best means at ALL to get information though, and they know it, but none makes the prisioners loose fear and respect from you and will not comply. A mix I think is what our government does to be mean and fearful yet not overly so, but yes it is possible that in Iraq or Afgahnistan atrasities may happen like stories of these rapes, but to be told to from rumsfeld I don't think so. Don't be so quick to jump the gun on these charges, or any for that matter unless you your self was in the room and witnessed it. The man from the ACLU claims he saw/heard the tapes, why not release to the press and then we can charge rummy with war crimes. Until then INNOCENT until proven guilty.

Rumsfeld wouldn't be stupid enough to issue orders for such a thing, IMHO.

All one has to do is establish an atmosphere where it is clear such things will be winked at and ignored, put the appropriate sadists in the right place, and viola!

I doubt Rumsfeld ordered anyone raped. I doubt he had to.

As far as Hersh's account - I don't doubt it. He may be no friend to the US .gov, but he has a long and distinguished record as a journalist, and has no track record of simply making stuff up. He also has an excellent network of sources within the US .mil - who no doubt fed him the information because they were as shocked and disgusted as anyone else with a conscience.

As for those offering the recent murder of two US prisoners as somehow being evidence that this didn't happen... huh? The fact that some insurgents torture and murder people does not somehow mean that some US soldiers do not also torture and murder people. Anyone who really believes that one side is composed entirely of selfless, noble paragons of virtue, and the other entirely of bloodthirsty, rampaging monsters, is hopelessly naive. And that sort of self-inflicted selective blindness seems prevalent on both sides of the Iraq War debate.

I've known a lot of US .mil and ex-US .mil people. Most were fairly decent sorts, some were IMHO genuinely heroic, but there were others who were pretty much total scum. I have little doubt that there might be some sadistic guard at a place like Gitmo would get his jollies raping little boys, or that he might get away with it in an environment where people simply didn't want to know what was going on...

This is America, he can do what he wants with what I posted. Calling him a NAZI is wrong, you are not in a country that had to deal with the NAZI forces, I wasn't born then but where I am from you do not use NAZIs so lightly Twitchy. Even if it was some how defending me in a way do not use NAZI symbols please.

Ok, Here's more, Google is a magical tool. This is children, women, men, everyone, being raped. Some will be repeats, but I want as many as possible so the republicans can keep Yelling and Screaming "Its not Fox News!!!!!"

www.boingboing.net...
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture
By Neil Mackay
www.sundayherald.com...
www.editorandpublisher.com...
www.pamspaulding.com...
www.indybay.org...
www.villagevoice.com...
groups.google.com...
groups.google.com...
"The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News." – The Boston Herald, May 8, 2004
www.buzzflash.com...
miami.indymedia.org...
southpaw.goodshow.net...
www.okimc.org...
www.j-bradford-delong.net...

Rumsfeld Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

Member Yumi,

The title of this thread is not supported by the information you provided in your original post.

Please explain the basis for the title of this thread.

I have no idea what is true, and what isn't true. I won't know with 100% certainty until I see it with my own eyes.
War and interrogation involving abuse unfortunately still go hand in hand. They always have, but hopefully won't be necessary for long. I'm hoping new technology will make such things absolutely avoidable.

I don't want to justify abuse, but how do you get the information you need to win a war? Is there a better/more effective way to do so? If so, what is it and why haven't they employed it?

We need to ask questions such as; "How and why did the prisoner end up in interrogation?", "Was the abuse provoked or unprovoked?", "How much (if any) and what kind of abuse was ordered by a superior officer?", "How likely was the prisoner to have the information which was sought from him/her?" , "Did the prisoner volunteer reliable information? If so, why was the prisoner still detained? Was he/she dangerous?", "Did soldiers abuse prisoners who had already volunteered information?", "What was the mental state of the soldier?", "Has the soldier ever been tested for excessive aggression/lack of control over him/herself?", "Is every interrogation supervised/recorded?" etc. etc. We also have to consider that much of the interrogations remain secret, because the public would most likely absolutely disapprove of the method. Once a better and more effective method for interrogation is found, there will be no need for this kind of violence.

You also have to remember that many of the soldiers working with these prisoners may have had close friends killed and mutilated by them. That certainly isn't the case with every soldier, but it is with some. It is a war. War is ugly, and may bring out the worst in a lot of people. They find themselves doing something they thought they would NEVER do. War eventually desensitizes you to the point when you no longer distinguish right from wrong. It is a very 'heavy' mental state, one which ordinary civilians who've never seen their friend blown into 20 pieces will never have to understand. Though I'm not excusing crimes, I'm trying to point out that this plays a very important part in what is going on. The soldiers involved in abuse may be using this as an opportunity to vent intense frustration. It is still wrong, but that's what happens.

The original poster implies that 14 year old children were raped in front of their parents in order to gather information. If this is true, it is absolutely disgusting. Until I see video or pictures (I can't say I want to willingly watch such things), I won't believe it 100%, but I won't deny that such things are a good possibility either. There are people (even in uniform) who are capable of more horrific things.

One thing we must understand is that not every (if most) soldier (from any country) would be capable of such a crime. I think that's a given. Just as there are paedophiles who are attracted to jobs like becoming a priest or teacher in order to get closer to children, so there are civilians enlisting in order to be able to commit such things without consequences. It is easier said than done to keep every single soldier who ever enlisted in complete check, especially during war. Their terrible behavior reflects on the entire nation when in fact it may have been the horrible act of an individual(s).

I resent the fact that other nations around the world believe that Americans would condone these acts. If a crime was committed, we want the criminals punished just as much as anyone else on this planet. Furthermore, other nations have no room to point their fingers before they look at their own "mistakes" and torture crimes. There isn't a single nation who has not employed (under the blessing of at least one or two of their political leaders/officers) the torture of prisoners. Part of my own home country points to the Abu Ghraib tortures, yet they forget that their country used to torture and make disappear their own citizens! Worse yet, few of the guilty were ever punished. At least the U.S. makes an 'effort' to arrest and bring the guilty to justice.
No nation is blame-free, and they should remember that when they start passing judgment on the Americans. Most of the world has always hated us, and now they have a perfect excuse to diminish our poularity even more, although they themselves have plenty of terrible issues to take care of. They should consider themselves extremely lucky that they're not in the limelight.

Was the abuse condoned/ordered by Rumsfeld? There's no proof thus far which would connect him to the crimes beyond a doubt. I know people enjoy hearing things like this about the people they already hate, because it helps them fuel/justify their hate further. Objectivity can be lost. To begin calling Rumsfeld "evil" or "the devil" is uncalled for, especially when absolute evidence has not been presented. Then again,... that's your opinion, and you're allowed to have it.

Finally,.. to tell someone that they're not a "true American" no matter of what opinion or political party is ridiculous. Every single one of us who holds American citizenship is a "true American". You have the right to dislike what's going on inside the country in which you live, and you have the right to try and change whatever it is you dislike, especially in the U.S.. We may not agree on what you're trying to change, but that is your and my right. Let's stop with this un-American crap please, whether you're Democrat or Republican, or some other political party. I'm sure we can find a more fitting label to use.

The ACLU has no credibility, as they support groups like NAMBLA.

The ACLU has also defended the free speech rights of NAZI's and the KKK...

Does that mean the ACLU are secretly actually right-wing extremists?

Or maybe they just think it's their mandate to support everyone's free-speech rights, no matter how unpopular?

I have my own problems with the ACLU, they seem to be die-hard supporters of each amendment in the Bill of Rights - except the Second. Which is why I think any American that genuinely supports the Bill of Rights ought to become a member of each organization...

[edit on 6/22/06 by xmotex]