Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

Yes, very funny stuff to me. I do concede to the photo with the guys arm cocked back...that's red-handed (no pun intended). Other than that, there is no evidence showing the origination of their wounds. They are photos...not videos showing the time of infliction. I find it funny that it doesn't take physical torture to break these cowards. I would prefer to be stacked on top of fellow servicemen naked than to have my fingernails pulled out and so on.

Silly liberals...breaking a prisoner down for interrogation...beats decapitation ANY day.

P.S. Nygdan, mixing truth with untruth does not make it all truth...

[edit on 23-6-2006 by BadMojo]

Silly liberals...breaking a prisoner down for interrogation...beats decapitation ANY day.

What about brutally sodomizing children to humiliate their parents? You and all the other supporters seem to miss the "Congress released the not so bad pictures".

They didn't release the videos of people being beaten until they passed out, the videos of children being raped, the audio of those children screaming in pain, so forth. So to say "Well the pictures the Congress said weren't so bad didn't show that so it must not be true."

DR has even admitted horrible things happened, and he is the leader, so he either gave them the orders or your troops just do whatever they want whenever they want with no orders ever. Is it like letting the insane run the asylum? Or do you think the troops got together and said "Today we will start raping children in front of their parents to get them to talk." with no orders or past actions to build off of?

So curiousity, by your logic Jhon McCain should have sued Bush etal for libel when they let one of roves shadow groups to claim in the 2000 south carolina primary that his adopted daughter from Bangedesh was in reality a love child with a black prostituite huh? People like you disgust me....your double standards are so bloody transparent. Where the hell do you get off threatening to turn people in for expressing their opinions huh? what are you some kind of fricking stool pigeon for the neo-con facicists? PIG! No I take that back the porcine family hasn't done anything to be insulted so....MERDE!!!

What people forget is because we shout our rhetoric to the high heavens about how so moral and decent the United States is, when things like Aub Graib and allegations such as these come out, true or not, they fuel the fires of resentment against us. If we preach a higher standard then by god we should endevour to live up to them. IF Rumsfeld did indeed approve of this (and he is famously a control freak, micro manager) then he has done his country a grave disservice and should at the very least be removed, if not tried for war crimes. When Abu Graib broke I heard rumor about these acts then, so it is not like they are new. Also what people forget also it that by the pentagons own estimates upwards of 90% of the detainees in Abu Graib at the time were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, think about it, whole families were swept up in raids, men, women and children, and imprisoned. Matter of fact, not conjuncture....ya think that endeared us to the Iraqis. I DON'T THINK SO! We have dug our own graves in Iraq with arrogance, poor planning, hubris and contempt for the people we were supposed to be librating. And to think Bush and his enablers in congress want to "stay the course". For bloody what?

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by zorgon
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning the torture of prisoners to extract information, especially if children are involved.

But I do have a serious question... What is the alternative? Do we just ask them nicely to tell us what we want to know? Do we just let them go and say "Have a nice day, please don't do it again?

To answer your question quite simply: CIA thats what we pay those dips for. To gain intelligence when you can't get it other ways. There is no need for that and if we can't get it like that , then we have to fight the old fashioned way using tactics and common sense. Whats the point in spending billions on spy sattelites and defense programs if the only way to get info is to beat or rape prisoners of war.


Pie

The answer is ... [drum roll]... a drug that has been in use for many many years:

"A truth drug (or truth serum) is a drug used for the purposes of obtaining accurate information from an unwilling subject, most often by a police, intelligence, or military organization on a prisoner.

Drugs used for this purpose have included ethanol, scopolamine, and sodium thiopental (more commonly known as Sodium Pentothal)..." - en.wikipedia.org...

No need for torture chaps - work smart not hard!

Originally posted by LovingSoul
"A truth drug (or truth serum)...

No need for torture chaps - work smart not hard!

I wonder why we don't employ this? Anyone know?

I fear there's something about the humiliation and degradation of the prisoners that is somehow more attractive in this war (simply not speaking for other wars because I'm fairly uneducated in them).

There's some feeling of punishing these prisoners, even though they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, that appeals to the base malevolence in the torturers. By the look on Lyndie England's face, it's like they enjoy torturing the prisoners. It's much more 'rewarding' than giving them a shot of Thiopental.

Gaining the truth isn't the only goal. Complete humiliation, shame and terror (yes TERROR) are the goals, along with obtaining information.

Edited to add:
-Torture remains in the memory of a prisoner encouraging him to cooperate 'next time'.
-Torture sets an example for other prisoners. If a man loses 3 fingers under torture, it's a reminder to the others just how far the terrorists are willing to go.
-The screams of torture are like none other. They can be heard by others as an indication of what they may be in for if they don't cooperate.

In other words, in addition to the humiliation and reward factors mentioned above, inhumane torture makes the group more controllable than giving a humane shot.

The shot may not guarantee 100% accurate results, but neither does torture. In fact, people would be more likely to 'make things up' under torture just to make it stop.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Yumi
You're saying Children were raped in front of their parents, recorded, for information in WWII and WWI? Or the war you fought, Vietnam, it was done there?

I hope not, one would hate to think everyone ordered this, although I hate to think Rumsfeld ordered this, but evidence shows I am to be hurt.
[edit on 22-6-2006 by Yumi]

um... ever hear of the Nazis? They did such things and worse. The war crimes of the US, being the victors were covered up.

Originally posted by BadMojo
Yes, very funny stuff to me. I do concede to the photo with the guys arm cocked back...that's red-handed (no pun intended). Other than that, there is no evidence showing the origination of their wounds. They are photos...not videos showing the time of infliction. I find it funny that it doesn't take physical torture to break these cowards. I would prefer to be stacked on top of fellow servicemen naked than to have my fingernails pulled out and so on.

Silly liberals...breaking a prisoner down for interrogation...beats decapitation ANY day.

[edit on 23-6-2006 by BadMojo]

You commentary shows a total misunderstanding of the situation. It is because they are muslims that being stacked naked is so humiliating. It would be similar to shoving a crucifix up the anus of a Christian.

Your tone also suggests you condone torture, and you are military, yes? It is exactly attitudes such as yours that make me believe the allegations of homosexual child rape by US military personnel are quite credible.

They won't release the "really bad ones" . Have you seen these nototrious "really bad ones"? Have you listened to this tape they are referring to? Have you gagged upon witnessing these heinous crimes towards children? Of course not...

Have they been published on some other website after being "leaked"? Has someone decided that this needs to be public and get it there? Come on, wake up and smell the spin already...

I started a thread once asking if people thought why some suicide bombers were cross dressers. IE. dressing in women's clothes before blowing themselves up and innocent people. I am talking about killing. Repeat killing innocent people! A step further then, torture. (some alleged and some real.) As in this thread.

And that thread was shut down quite quickly. I asked a serious question, provided many examples, and gave my arguement.

And a thread gets to have Rumsfield "may have" ordered rapes and sodomy of children, and it gets to stay. And the moderators even changed the title of this thread from "ordered" to "may have".

I find it hypocritical.

We are all pushing agendas, points of views, and our own reality. But ruffling feathers one way seems more acceptable form on this site at times.

I've spent the last few hours reading throught his thread from beginning to end. The mind boggles!! What scares me the most is that ANYBODY would think that there is EVER any reason to torture or abuse any human being - whether the torture is being perpetrated by or upon US troops is entirely beside the point. It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! There can never be any excuse or justification for these kinds of acts. Surely civilized society can see that tit for tat or an eye for an eye does not solve the proper, it only compounds it! Guys, have you never heard of turning the other cheek - no matter what wrong has been afflicted upon you, you should still have the GRACE to turn to that person and say "I feel very sorry for you, for the fact that you have debased yourself enough to want to hurt another human being (no matter their nationality, race, colour, creed or religion) and I just wanted you to know that God [or whoever you believe in] still loves you!"
There is nothing that deflates anger and negates hatred quicker than a show of love.
I'm not so naive that I think that, when confronted with a radical with a bomb, they are just going to say "Oh gee, sorry, here you go - you can take my bomb away from me because God loves me" but I think that if we all taught our children this way of thinking from day one, they at least will have a better world to live in than we do. Lets hope.

I think this thread is a great illustration of why ATS is such a wonderful place of ideas and debate. The thread is posted with a provocative title and the Original Poster is immediately jumped on about her sources and her motives. Certain posters called for the mods to close the thread immediately and basically went bats***t over the very idea of this thread. However, Yumi has consistently posted links to sources (whether you consider them "credible" or not isn't an issue) and she's successfully weathered the initial storm of being shouted down and this has actually turned into a decent discussion about the nature of war and the self-image of America.

Kudos to Majic for handling the complaints in a measured and professional way. Adding two words to the thread title was all it took to address the complaints and also leave the discussion untouched and untarnished. Great job!

My own opinions are that the allegations of using children in the torture and humilation of Iraqi prisoners are probably true. I base that on all the other things I've considered impossible for Americans to do that I now know have been done. I would be surprised if Rumsefeld ordered it directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if he and President Bush were aware of it all along. This administration has become the most un-American group of leaders this country has ever seen. I never thought there would come a time when the idea that American soldiers abusing children would be plausible and certainly never thought I'd see fellow Americans defending it. We live in strange times indeed.

In the end, the only power we have is the vote. I for one don't think we should wait until 2008 to exercise that power. We need to start now in 2006 and give the other side some numbers in Congress so at least it won't be SO EASY for them to walk all over the Constitution for the next 2 years.

Originally posted by SKMDC1
I think this thread is a great illustration of why ATS is such a wonderful place of ideas and debate. The thread is posted with a provocative title and the Original Poster is immediately jumped on about her sources and her motives. Certain posters called for the mods to close the thread immediately and basically went bats***t over the very idea of this thread. However, Yumi has consistently posted links to sources (whether you consider them "credible" or not isn't an issue) and she's successfully weathered the initial storm of being shouted down and this has actually turned into a decent discussion about the nature of war and the self-image of America.

Kudos to Majic for handling the complaints in a measured and professional way. Adding two words to the thread title was all it took to address the complaints and also leave the discussion untouched and untarnished. Great job!

My own opinions are that the allegations of using children in the torture and humilation of Iraqi prisoners are probably true. I base that on all the other things I've considered impossible for Americans to do that I now know have been done. I would be surprised if Rumsefeld ordered it directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if he and President Bush were aware of it all along. This administration has become the most un-American group of leaders this country has ever seen. I never thought there would come a time when the idea that American soldiers abusing children would be plausible and certainly never thought I'd see fellow Americans defending it. We live in strange times indeed.

In the end, the only power we have is the vote. I for one don't think we should wait until 2008 to exercise that power. We need to start now in 2006 and give the other side some numbers in Congress so at least it won't be SO EASY for them to walk all over the Constitution for the next 2 years.

Well said SKMDC1! I was only going to quote part of your post but, after re-reading it, decided that the entire post is a breath of fresh air and shows a healthy approach to this discussion and life in general.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by SIRR1
How F#@**%^g dare you even post something like this!

So, because 2 soldiers were tortured, it's ok for us to torture them and rape and sodomise them? How dare YOU!!!!!!

edit: BTW, abu graib was a long time before these 2 soldiers. Maybe the 2 soldiers were payback for all this crap? Think for yourself for once instead of letting fox news do it for you.

[edit on 6/22/2006 by Griff]

to pay back for those 2 soldiers hopefully the U.S. covers up some *beheadings* themselves

Originally posted by Swatman
to pay back for those 2 soldiers hopefully the U.S. covers up some *beheadings* themselves

Like I said... We have become them...

That feeling that prompts you to say such things? That's how they feel. That's why they do what they do. :shk:

no. they do what they do because they actually think allah is telling them this stuff. it almost should be on a comedy show what some of these terrorists say, they make good stand up comedy.

Originally posted by grover
So curiousity, by your logic Jhon McCain should have sued Bush etal for libel when they let one of roves shadow groups to claim in the 2000 south carolina primary that his adopted daughter from Bangedesh was in reality a love child with a black prostituite huh? People like you disgust me....your double standards are so bloody transparent. Where the hell do you get off threatening to turn people in for expressing their opinions huh? what are you some kind of fricking stool pigeon for the neo-con facicists? PIG! No I take that back the porcine family hasn't done anything to be insulted so....

Dear grover,
take a pill, calm down, and read what you're writing before you post. I have no idea what your post is on about John McCain and could care less.

My posts aren't about whether or not the government did something reprehensible, it is about whether anyone can say annnnnnyy thing about any body with no proof, no credibility and get by with it.

Let's smear you instead of me for a moment, are you calling me a stool pigeon, a neo-con faciicists (whatever in the world thatttt is), and a pig?

For exercising my freedom of speech? In my e-mail to the White House, which of course you assumed was "turning someone in" I asked if the information contained in Yumi's original thread title was true. Now that you have that clear in your spiteful mind, I AM an American, proud of it, and utilizing my freedom of speech to do exactly what I did.

What makes me different from you then? What makes my freedom of speech rights less than yours? You used yours to call names, I used mine to try and find out the truth about something that sounded terrible and that I'd want to know was being said about me if I were Mr. Rumfeld.

I differ in my view of slander from you. Apparently slander would only count if it were about you, your family, your loved ones? You want to tar and feather someone, try your uncle, cousin, sister or brother. Now does the shoe fit?


And Yumi, your drama doesn't play well.

To be honest I believe the islamic culture is inferior to any other culture on the planet, it's foundation is one of violence, now one can argue that christianity has also had a past of extreme violence and prejudice, which I can agree to at some point. However I do not see christians (at least not the majority) randomly killing innocent people for a trivial cause. Again this is simply my perspective, I'm certain some people will find this arguable as well. My emphasis is that Islam is truly a threat to global peace, they have targeted all non-islamic nations and intend to make islam the law of the world. Even in the quran you can see that this was encouraged, and can be seen by the actions of muhammed, their prophet.

Despite being an environmentalist, I can support the Bush administration to some degree if his intentions are to deter these terrorists from more innocent targets.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
The ACLU has no credibility, as they support groups like NAMBLA.

This is off topic but hold it right there. The ACLU also is defending reverend Phelps to be able to protest at funerals. The ACLU is there to defend ANYONE'S civil liberties. Hence the name American Civil Liberties Union. Just because you don't like who they try to protect, doesn't automatically make them lose credibility.


Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...er I mean program.

Originally posted by laiguana
To be honest I believe the islamic culture is inferior to any other culture on the planet

I'm not a big fan of Islamic culture but hey, have you read their poetry, studied the books by Avicenna and do you in general appreciate their contribution ot our own society?

However I do not see christians (at least not the majority) randomly killing innocent people for a trivial cause.

What exactly are you calling a trivial cause? Huh?

As for Christians, how about the war in Bosnia and/or Croatia, where Christians were killing other Christians and Muslims as well? What about Native Americans decimated by mostly Christian invaders? What about slavery perpetrated by the Christians?

Originally posted by Swatman
no. they do what they do because they actually think allah is telling them this stuff. it almost should be on a comedy show what some of these terrorists say, they make good stand up comedy.

Who is to say that Allah is'nt telling them to do this stuff?

Im sure that the Islamists laugh when they hear that God speaks directly to Bush.(I know I do) Matter of fact,a very good friend of mine is considered 'schizophrenic' because he talks to god all the time (except in his case,god is a female).


[edit on 23-6-2006 by Bootyac]