Do you think Jesus is angry?

By the way, insulting people because you cannot think of anything constructive to say, is a true sign of ignorance.

Very good point, I'm sorry I've come across as ignorant. My only excuse is that I am a very ill person at the moment, and possibly not up to intelligent debate. I have an infection of the sack which the heart lies in and have had a temp of 105 for 5 days now.

Show me one tiny slither of proof of the existence of any god (without mentioning the get-out clause of 'proof denies faith') and I will drop my intolerence of religion(s).

I believe religion can be a good thing at a local level, where it's local people helping each other, but on a global scale, it starts wars, people kill each other, pointlessly. Not to mention the young boys who's life has been ruined by perverted religious leaders.

I apologise for any offense, I'm hallucinating for much of the day, haven't slept for 5 days and I really shouldn't be on the net, I am shaking so badly, I can hardly type.

Please ignore my comments above. People have to believe in what they believe in. My view of religions has become tainted.

Also, I am sick of this website, I came here for intelligent discussion, but recently, every post contains the kind of simple-minded hatred that typifies people who drive pickup trucks, own shotguns (colonel for example) and use words like n*gger and f*ggot in every other sentence.

Zzub over and out on ATS.

Oh, so now you call me out. Well, I will have you know that I don't own a shotgun nor drive a pick up truck. Furthermore, I am not the ONLY person on ATS. I am one out of several hundred (or thouand).

Finally, I will speak my mind however I feel and when some member decides that they need to insult me I give them one better---that's how I operate. If YOU don't like my posts, DON'T FRIGGIN READ THEM. There are several thousand threads on ATS of which I am not on but you feel the need to read mine.

So, don't give us this BS about the threads. What is happeningf is that you take guilty pleasure in readig them and NOW you want to take the high road.

And if you don't want me to deal with you, don't ever call me me out like you just have.

Finally, don't change the theme of the thread. I find that equally despicable.

Originally posted by jezebel

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Just like the Word of the Father (Jesus) judged the world, the Word of the Son become Father shall judge the world, him who shall win over the forces of this world and sit down beside Jesus just as Jesus sat down by his Father's right hand. It's all about winning. When Jesus says he won't judge, but that his Word will judge, he simply explains how this whole stuff works. It's about love and trust. The greatest force that is, has ever been and will ever be. God is Love. And God is salvation. Salvation means being with God and be releived from evil forces. Judgement is Salvation. For those who believes in his Word.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So, the "Comforter" or "Spirit of truth" will scold us for not believing, serve as an example of righteousness in place of Jesus, and uphold the judgment that was passed on the prince of this (physical) world. Not exactly bolts of lightening, if you ask me.

I think Comforter isn't a very good name to use for the Spirit of God. Councellor or Lawyer is better. He refines and educates the believers. And scold is a word I have never heared of before. Why not rather use "disiplines". As a father disiplines his sons with love so does God, and to say the least: He's of the old school... It is up to you to either thank God for sending the Plague to refine and reveil the hearts and kidneys of men or scorn his name for it. Our mortal understanding of love won't serve us much good in the matters of God. We equalise kindness with love which isn't good. The Love of God is something greater. It is the Judgement and elimination of Evil. The Winner of God will be a man of great suffering. And his suffering is the Love of God. The greatest thing a Christian can live to see is to take part in the suffering of Yeshuah. But these people are often hated and excluded for they are believed to be possessed and evil. The last will be the first and many of the first will be the last.

"hell" is the darkness or separation from God we experience while we live on earth. I make this claim based on the statement that the prince of this world was judged at the crucifixion.

Now you speek like the False Prophet. Gehenna will be a physical place of execution and torture. It is not simply being away from God, allthough that argumant is ofcourse valid since there is no God in Gehenna. The Hell is here argument from the Vatican, I see only as an attempt to explain away their own mistakes. The pope is not the Victor of the seven congregations. He has not ruled in peace for 1000 years allthough they claim this. And he is not the Son of God, the Word and fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of his Son, the Word. Satan was judged by the Tree of Wisdom. It was emphasized by the killing of Jesus, his original lie was exposed for good, laying down the premises for his final conviction. When Jesus' son arrives, Jesus will enter the High Chair of the Father of Creation, and Satan will be convicted for having tempted God, not just for having lied to mankind.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
**could the reason He told Mary not to touch him be because he was in a pure or spirit form (like a ghost) and the touch of man may have affected His ability to rejoin with the "One" in heaven? Just a theory.

Highly possible, but I think it was of a more prophetic character that she shouldn't touch him. Afterall Tomas did touch him later on, and in one of the other accounts on the matter he ate a fish to proove he was not a ghost/spirit. Mary believed without touching him, while Tomas had to touch him to believe. This was somehow important. One of the first persons to proclaim that Jesus was the Messiah was an old woman, Anna daughter of Fanuel, a prophet of God. Also, Gabriel went first to the women to proclaim the forthcoming births of Jesus and John and they believed. Perhaps God wanted to make a point?

Cool post though, I like that you use only the Beloved Gospel to explain your understanding. Keep up the good work, and never stop asking questions. God loves those who search for him. And those who search will find. Those who knock will be let in. Allthough I don't like the alias you have chosen, but that's another story.....

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I believe religion can be a good thing at a local level, where it's local people helping each other, but on a global scale, it starts wars, people kill each other, pointlessly. Not to mention the young boys who's life has been ruined by perverted religious leaders

In your fever-induced moments there, quite a gem.... This is an interesting perspective I think, and a good observation... The whole local vs. global idea....

I look back at what I wrote. Man, I can hardly remember writing that stuff. (my fever broke last night, I'm going back on solids tomorrow after 5 days of no eating). Sorry for the outburst, guys, I'm embarassed.


Well, I sat and thought about it. Religion can not be bad at all levels. Many people find what they need from god in a local church. My views have been wrong, or not taking all the facts into account. I have only been considering the larger picture, not the details. To each his own.

Quite when it turns bad, I'm not sure. Is it when the church is one with the state?

Originally posted by Zzub
I look back at what I wrote. Man, I can hardly remember writing that stuff. (my fever broke last night, I'm going back on solids tomorrow after 5 days of no eating). Sorry for the outburst, guys, I'm embarassed.

Well, I sat and thought about it. Religion can not be bad at all levels. Many people find what they need from god in a local church. My views have been wrong, or not taking all the facts into account. I have only been considering the larger picture, not the details. To each his own.

Quite when it turns bad, I'm not sure. Is it when the church is one with the state?

Actually, local religion can be very bad too. It always starts locally. It all depends on the religion, and those participating. Any time they have power, so it seems, they use it to further their agenda, or persecute those who are not one of them. All you have to do to be their friend, is say you love Jesus.

Originally posted by Zzub
I look back at what I wrote. Man, I can hardly remember writing that stuff. (my fever broke last night, I'm going back on solids tomorrow after 5 days of no eating). Sorry for the outburst, guys, I'm embarassed.

Well, I sat and thought about it. Religion can not be bad at all levels. Many people find what they need from god in a local church. My views have been wrong, or not taking all the facts into account. I have only been considering the larger picture, not the details. To each his own.

Quite when it turns bad, I'm not sure. Is it when the church is one with the state?

Thank you Zzub. That was very noble of you.

In answer to your question, faith turns bad when it becomes a religion used to control or persecute others, or when it prevents people from seeking the truth for themselves. Churches or religion can be bad whether local or international, like the Vatican, if the people running it do so for personal gain.

originally by Mikromarius
"God is Love. And God is salvation. Salvation means being with God and be relieved from evil forces. Judgment is Salvation. For those who believes in his Word...Now you speak like the False Prophet. Gehenna will be a physical place of execution and torture. It is not simply being away from God, although that argument is of course valid since there is no God in Gehenna. The Hell is here argument from the Vatican, I see only as an attempt to explain away their own mistakes "

If the relief of evil forces occurs when we die and our spirit rejoins with God's Spirit, then doesn't that imply that the evil we are relieved of, is our bodies? The judgment of our body is death, which we are all subject to at the end of our days.

I don't think "hell" exists on earth. I think that it is an inability to rejoin the "One" or God after we die. If Judgment is Salvation and God is Salvation and Salvation is only applicable to our spirit, then the judgment of mankind, must be the judgment of our spirits separate from our bodies. If God were going to exact punishment on the spirits or souls of all mankind guilty of disbelief, why would he make the punishment a physical one? The spirit/soul has no nerve endings to signal pain, nor any other feelings, like we experience in our bodies. The spirit doesn't even have a individual awareness once it's left our bodies. Eternal separation from God, existence in total darkness and with total detachment from the "Great Spirit", seems like a far worse punishment for a soul/spirit. If "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit", then one is not directly connected to the other. We were given the ability to die and leave our physical bodies, so that we could return to the Paradise that was in Eden, or Heaven.

Genesis 3
23. And the Lord God sent him from Eden's Paradise to work the earth that He consecrated off from there.
24. And so the Lord God ejected him, and there shot up for them from the East of the Paradise of Eden the plants of carob and a perishable life at the edge of the sword, so as there would be one day a return to the way of the Tree of Life.

If a spirit, while in it's body, never accepted it's connection to the "Infinite Whole" while it had individual thoughts, it would not be able to find the "way to the Tree of Life" which is in Paradise.

I think Comforter isn't a very good name to use for the Spirit of God. Councellor or Lawyer is better. He refines and educates the believers. And scold is a word I have never heard of before. Why not rather use "disciplines"

This was not my word, it came from
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
**According to Merriam-Websters Dictionary reprove means: 1 : to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent

So in other words, you could say, And when He is come, He will scold or correct gently or with kindly intent, the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

He is also referred to as the Spirit of Truth in John 14:16-17:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Winner of God will be a man of great suffering. And his suffering is the Love of God. The greatest thing a Christian can live to see is to take part in the suffering of Yeshuah. But these people are often hated and excluded for they are believed to be possessed and evil

Suffering is a result of man's hate, it is not something God causes. He commends it because to die or be persecuted for one's faith, is one of the greatest tests of faith, and testaments to it, one can have and give. The act of causing suffering to believers, however, is only done at the hands of the world, or mankind.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

After all Tomas did touch him later on, and in one of the other accounts on the matter he ate a fish to prove he was not a ghost/spirit. Mary believed without touching him, while Tomas had to touch him to believe.

Actually, it never says Thomas touched him, only that Jesus showed him his wounds and offered to let him touch them, if he needed to do so to believe.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

It says that the disciples didn't have to ask who Jesus was, because they knew he was the Lord. Why point to the fact that they didn't ask who he was unless he wanted to point out that even though he didn't look like the man they were familiar with, they knew him because of his Spirit?
John 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come [and] dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
Also, it doesn't say that he ate the bread and fishes, only that he took them and gave them to his disciples to eat.
John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.

I've also noticed that after the resurrection, there is no longer any reference to Jesus as the Son of man. This was the title He used when referring to his human state of existence. The only titles used after the resurrection are, the Lord, Son of God, and the Christ. These are all titles that were used in reference to His Spiritual nature, as part of God.

Originally posted by jezebel
If the relief of evil forces occurs when we die and our spirit rejoins with God's Spirit, then doesn't that imply that the evil we are relieved of, is our bodies? The judgment of our body is death, which we are all subject to at the end of our days.

Well we are not releaved from evil when we die, our souls just go on hold. Everyone will have to stand before the Great Judge in the end. And they will stand there in bodies. Those who are judged wicked will be destroyed, while those who are judged good are transformed and receive a new body which is moulded in eternity and incorruptibility. Don't you believe in the ressurection of the flesh?

I don't think "hell" exists on earth. I think that it is an inability to rejoin the "One" or God after we die. If Judgment is Salvation and God is Salvation and Salvation is only applicable to our spirit, then the judgment of mankind, must be the judgment of our spirits separate from our bodies. If God were going to exact punishment on the spirits or souls of all mankind guilty of disbelief, why would he make the punishment a physical one? The spirit/soul has no nerve endings to signal pain, nor any other feelings, like we experience in our bodies. The spirit doesn't even have a individual awareness once it's left our bodies. Eternal separation from God, existence in total darkness and with total detachment from the "Great Spirit", seems like a far worse punishment for a soul/spirit. If "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit", then one is not directly connected to the other. We were given the ability to die and leave our physical bodies, so that we could return to the Paradise that was in Eden, or Heaven.

Genesis 3
23. And the Lord God sent him from Eden's Paradise to work the earth that He consecrated off from there.
24. And so the Lord God ejected him, and there shot up for them from the East of the Paradise of Eden the plants of carob and a perishable life at the edge of the sword, so as there would be one day a return to the way of the Tree of Life.

Or to say it in more understandable terms: God cast out Adam and Eve from Eden and put cherubim to guard the Eastern entrance to Eden and the path that leads to the Tree of Life, with the fiery sword that swings back and forth. Which translation do you use? Looks kind of interresting....

This was not my word, it came from
John 16:7 (+8)
**According to Merriam-Websters Dictionary reprove means: 1 : to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent

Yes, I didn't say you had chosen the words, I just said that the "scold" was abit old fasioned and difficult to understand. Reprove is a good word I guess. I still mean that councellor, spokesman or defence atteurney is a better word to use for the Holy Spirit than the word in question. It is more true to the source text.

So in other words, you could say, And when He is come, He will scold or correct gently or with kindly intent, the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide the chosen. He is the mark uppon the foreheads of God's elect ekklesia who is the bride of the Lamb. The Lamb who boils over with wrath towards this world. The Holy Spirit will lead the elect away from death towards rest and eternity with the Lamb.

He is also referred to as the Spirit of Truth in John 14:16-17:

Meaning the Spirit of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the mind of Jesus, which is God.

The Winner of God will be a man of great suffering.

Suffering is a result of man's hate, it is not something God causes.

Doesn't everything, both good and evil come from God? To suffer while in this tent reproves and disiplines the follower. It shows the difference between a true believer and a fraud.

After all Tomas did touch him later on

Actually, it never says Thomas touched him, only that Jesus showed him his wounds and offered to let him touch them, if he needed to do so to believe.

But still this would indicate that it was indeed possible to touch him.

Also, it doesn't say that he ate the bread and fishes, only that he took them and gave them to his disciples to eat.
John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.

As I said in my reply I was refering to one of the other gospel accounts. Luke to be specific:
Luke 24:36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

I've also noticed that after the resurrection, there is no longer any reference to Jesus as the Son of man. This was the title He used when referring to his human state of existence. The only titles used after the resurrection are, the Lord, Son of God, and the Christ. These are all titles that were used in reference to His Spiritual nature, as part of God.

Yes, this is one of the clearest signs that time is a relative factor in the fulfillment of his victory.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Well we are not releaved from evil when we die, our souls just go on hold. Everyone will have to stand before the Great Judge in the end. And they will stand there in bodies. Those who are judged wicked will be destroyed, while those who are judged good are transformed and receive a new body which is moulded in eternity and incorruptibility. Don't you believe in the ressurection of the flesh?

Actually, no. I don't think that our physical bodies will be a part of the Judgement. I think that the "judgement" happens upon our death for those who believe in "God". For those who never find an understanding of God, I think they will be in stasis or limbo until they are judged for the type of life they lived. If they lived a true and honest life, even if they never believed in God, they are judged acccording to their works.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Or to say it in more understandable terms: God cast out Adam and Eve from Eden and put cherubim to guard the Eastern entrance to Eden and the path that leads to the Tree of Life, with the fiery sword that swings back and forth. Which translation do you use? Looks kind of interresting....

This is from a translation of the ancient Aramaic cuniform tablets of the Bible. It's at this site:
www.v-a.com...
A lot of people won't accept it simply because it's not the KJV, but I personally have had many doubts relieved because of this translation. It's worth a look at any rate.

Doesn't everything, both good and evil come from God?

I believe that, just like darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of good. I think that the spirit of man and God is the same and pure by nature. I think the body of man is all that separates us from God and thus becomes a negative force. It prevents us from seeing our true divine nature, and so it is bad. So, if God is pure, or good, and the absence of good is evil, then I believe that the absence of God is evil. That is why I say that the human condition is the devil. Just my own understanding of the truth.

But still this would indicate that it was indeed possible to touch him.

Unless, He knew Thomas wouldn't, but just offered to allow him to feel like he could.

As I said in my reply I was refering to one of the other gospel accounts. Luke to be specific:
Luke 24:36

Sorry, I missed your giving me the specific passage. I think that Jesus just wanted to show them He wasn't an apparition of the dead Christ, but rather He was the Living Spirit of God. There's no reason why he couldn't eat. He wasn't a ghost, He was a pure manifestation of God, unconfined to physical limitations.

Jesus should be mad that everyone think he is white.

He should also be mad at his so called followers.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Jesus should be mad that everyone think he is white.

Before this goes any further,could you please answer these questions I asked Colonel on the other thread www.abovetopsecret.com...
These are the verses used to support his theory do you agree?

18 "...These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
------------------------------------------------------------------------Do you also, then believe that he had red/orange glowing eyes? And metal feet?


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 1
14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow... 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was his head made of wool and snow as well as his hair then? Isn't bronze glowing in a furnace bright red, rather than dark golden brown?

If you are going to interpret these verses literally, then the Son of God and man has, a white head and hair (it's white like wool, white as snow, not white OF wool, white OF snow), red glowing eyes (like a blazing fire), feet that glow red hot (like burnished bronze glowing in a furnace), and a roaring voice that doesn't speak human words (like the sound of rushing waters).

If you asked a blind man to describe what a white Jesus or a black Jesus would look like, do you think he would give the same definition you would? Or would he say that a white Jesus' appearance is the absence of all color and a black Jesus' appearance is the combination of all color? I somehow think that the blind man would be far closer to the truth than anyone able to discriminate based on race.

And who are we to say what Jesus' TRUE form is? If he is indeed God, as he claimed, He could be anything he wants. How could we possibly, as mere humans, place limitations on an infinite being, such as God?

It's much easier to pretend someone lived through (or after) a horrible death, isn't it? I prefer to believe the most probably truth, which is that god/Christ is just another myth, invented by primitive people not long out of the caves.

I prefer to believe that people that deny what they cannot understand are afraid of something.

Exactly. They're in denial of death, and afterlife is their form of denial. You kind of shot yourself in the foot there, if you were trying to imply that I'm afraid of the truth.
I don't fear death. Those who don't fear death, have no choice but to think that those who deny "the end" are full of fear. They craft a new life beyond death...one in which they're not only reunited with loved ones, but also have everything they could ever want. Could you make death sound any more attractive?

[Edited on 10-31-2003 by Satyr]