New Video Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon Released

Originally posted by Aris
inside job, perhaps permitted ("stand down") with patsies, perhaps not. Say, didn't half or so of the alleged 9/11 terrorists end up being alive & well in their countries after 9/11? Yep, they did.

see that what i find funny about it, the alledged terrorists are alive and well, in different parts of their countries, so why are they still being blamed for crashing the planes hmm lol.
the same happened on 7/7 the london bombing, they picked these guys out as the bombers YET again some of them were found alive and well wondering what the heck was goin on.

*sigh* it would be nice to have people in power who actually tell the truth, and not be a mockery to our countires.
oh wait we diod have and they were assasinated

So, PieMan and AgentSmith, what you are saying is that over a hundred or so seats and over 80 or so tons of alloys got vaporized into thin air but 66 of the 68 bodies' DNA on those seats and in those 80 or so tons withstood what those alloys didn't?

Please, gimme a break, the energy and temperature required to vaporize aluminum, various alloys and titanium is much more than that required to vaporize DNA and teeth.

"We didn't find the plane but we found 98% of the DNA inside it"!!!

LOL!!!

Great, AgentSmith, thanx for your time and effort with the diagrams. Not to bicker, but it seems to me that the horizontal red line is intersecting the vertical blue line on the lawn. It looks like the blue line is a little long at the bottom (I admit it's hard to judge where the base of the wall begins due to the shade), something that makes the red line low.

I appreciate how you're accomodating my skepticism and going out of your way to redraw the pic again because of my nitpicking

Like I said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, I just believe that an inch here or an inch there makes quite a difference when it's impossible, but still important, to be as exact as we can because an inch or so off here or there translates to feet when scaled up.

Originally posted by ronishia
see that what i find funny about it, the alledged terrorists are alive and well, in different parts of their countries, so why are they still being blamed for crashing the planes hmm lol.

That's a very good question that everyone should be asking.

*sigh* it would be nice to have people in power who actually tell the truth, and not be a mockery to our countires.
oh wait we diod have and they were assasinated

Unfortunately, people in power in all our countries owe their allegiance to big business, simply because they fund them with oodles of $$$ while we fund them with lowly civil servant paychecks. We don't live in democracies. A system where money talks, instead of the people's wishes, is hardly a democracy.

Originally posted by Aris
Like I said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, I just believe that an inch here or an inch there makes quite a difference when it's impossible, but still important, to be as exact as we can because an inch or so off here or there translates to feet when scaled up.

You're absolutely right, I'd appreciate someone who is good at this doing a decent job. I was more interested in showing the gross inaccuracies in the 'joke' GIF that floats around as a lot of people seem to think it is accurate scalewise!

Originally posted by ronishia
see that what i find funny about it, the alledged terrorists are alive and well, in different parts of their countries, so why are they still being blamed for crashing the planes hmm lol.

If you search you'll see we've been through this before, there was confusion in the beginning. Even the Saudi Government have now ackowledged who was involved.

the same happened on 7/7 the london bombing, they picked these guys out as the bombers YET again some of them were found alive and well wondering what the heck was goin on.

Again, exaggerations - there was confusion caused by the media by posting unofficial photos and spelling names incorrectly.

These ideas are based on confusions caused early on, the people who propogate these ideas seem to conveniently ignore the clarifications through further investigation later - because it conflicts with their personal brand of the 'truth' I imagine.

To "Aris"...

So where's the mass of metal? Eighty to one hundred tons of it to be precise. And btw, such tonnage of aluminum, steel, titanium etc, does not simply vaporize or atomize, as some in here ludicrously claim, even when impacting reinforced concrete at 500mph.

>> Take a look at the crash debris of Flight 93 in Pennsylvania. Similar aircraft involved. There are no wings, fuselage, or debris like you feel there should be. Again friend, the beer can principle, speed and physics. The plane simply disintegrated when it nose-dived into the ground. You saw it happen in New York! Where are the debris from those planes? Inside, disintegrated and mixed with the rest of the debris. The same principles were in play in Pennsylvania and Arlington.

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Originally posted by ronishia
see that what i find funny about it, the alledged terrorists are alive and well, in different parts of their countries, so why are they still being blamed for crashing the planes hmm lol.

If you search you'll see we've been through this before, there was confusion in the beginning. Even the Saudi Government have now ackowledged who was involved.

the same happened on 7/7 the london bombing, they picked these guys out as the bombers YET again some of them were found alive and well wondering what the heck was goin on.

Again, exaggerations - there was confusion caused by the media by posting unofficial photos and spelling names incorrectly.

These ideas are based on confusions caused early on, the people who propogate these ideas seem to conveniently ignore the clarifications through further investigation later - because it conflicts with their personal brand of the 'truth' I imagine.

So, then, who were the actual hijackers? Names, background etc please.

Originally posted by Arctaurus26us
To "Aris"...

So where's the mass of metal? Eighty to one hundred tons of it to be precise. And btw, such tonnage of aluminum, steel, titanium etc, does not simply vaporize or atomize, as some in here ludicrously claim, even when impacting reinforced concrete at 500mph.

>> Take a look at the crash debris of Flight 93 in Pennsylvania. Similar aircraft involved. There are no wings, fuselage, or debris like you feel there should be. Again friend, the beer can principle, speed and physics. The plane simply disintegrated when it nose-dived into the ground. You saw it happen in New York! Where are the debris from those planes? Inside, disintegrated and mixed with the rest of the debris. The same principles were in play in Pennsylvania and Arlington.

Originally posted by Aris

So, then, who were the actual hijackers? Names, background etc please.

Does that really matter? Do we really want to go after those who are dead and just a puppet in the entire game anyway?

It's clear who's responsible for letting this happen, who did what exactly will become clear in a court of law (wishfull thinking).

The names are published, in fact the only alleged discrepancy after the photos were published was Mohammad Atta, whose father kept insisting he was alive, though he offered no proof.
Even he seems to have actually accepted it now though, it started from articles like this in his case:

As I saw the picture of my son," he said, "I knew that he hadn't done it. My son called me the day after the attacks on September 12 at around midday. We spoke for two minutes about this and that.

"He didn't tell me where he was calling from. At that time neither of us knew anything about the attacks."
www.guardian.co.uk...

An article from 2002. Yet in this article from only 8 days after the attacks:

"I do not believe my son did it; I am sure he is alive," the father said. "He was afraid of flying."
www.maebrussell.com... and Notes/Eqyptian man denies son's involvement in hijackings.html

He doesn't talk about this phone call, and his words imply he has not had one as they are speculative.

After the London bombings last year he also said:

CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) -- The father of one of the hijackers who commandeered the first plane that crashed into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, praised the recent terror attacks in London and said many more would follow.

Speaking to CNN producer Ayman Mohyeldin Tuesday in his apartment in the upper-middle-class Cairo suburb of Giza, Mohamed el-Amir said he would like to see more attacks like the July 7 bombings of three London subway trains and a bus that killed 52 people, plus the four bombers.
[..........]
El-Amir said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son.
www.cnn.com...

Pretty flimsy evidence of being alive don't you think?

As I said, with this exception I believe that the stories of them being alive vanished after the photos being released, apart from the conspiracy sites which would rather ignore that fact as it doesn't exactly help the cause and all.

Where's your proof they are still alive? Ageing BBC articles written in the early stages which were later made redundant not counting of course.

[edit on 18-5-2006 by AgentSmith]

Let me give you another example that's close to home: last year we had the Helios crash here near Athens, a few miles from my house which is at the base of a mountain. The pilots became incapacitated for some reason, the plane circled over Athens until its fuel ran out and it then dived and impacted upon the mountainside.

Now, if you don't remember that crash and the famous image of the tail section perched sideways and basically intact, I'll look it up for you and provide you with a link. Furthermore, I have pictures, gory pictures of that crash from rescue personnel that went to the scene. I'm not going to post them for obvious reasons (the person that gave me them would get in a lot of sh** by the authorities) so you're going to have to take my word on this or visit me for a beer so I can show them to you: the Helios crash had all kinds of wreckage, all kinds of seats, all kinds of easily identifiable plane parts and all kinds of bodies in twisted positions still strapped in their seats or flung out. You can see everything. Tons of identifiable wreckage and lots of easily identifiable bodies and all that from a plane that smacked into a mountainside at high speed. You think high speed crashes leave no identifiable parts or bodies around but my friend you are wrong, dead wrong. I have pictures of 20-25 year old girls in summer clothes, tank tops etc, strapped into a plane that dived into a mountain and let me tell you, seeing cute young women, so nicely dressed, summery etc, twisted and dead amidst so much wreckage around them is really, really disturbing and sad. So don't tell me that high speed crashes leave nothing but a quarter behind and DNA samples because I've seen it, aside from internet pics of crashes, with my own eyes. Some had their guts spilled out, some had their heads cracked open, some were missing limbs, some were burned to a crisp, but the bodies were all over the place and so were tons of wreckage.

In the Helios disaster the flight attendant (who had a PPL) was trying to pull the plane up at the time when the second engine failed due to oxygen starvation after successully descending to 7000 feet I believe. In which case it probably went into a stall and would have pretty much landed belly first, where as in the case of all the 9/11 flights, including 93, they all hit their targets at full power head on. With all due respect it really isn't comparable at all.

EDIT: Ah found it, I knew I hadn't imagined it, it landed nose up:

When Prodromou took control of the plane, he disengaged the autopilot by taking control of the steering. He then descended the plane to around 7,000 feet but when attempting to lift the aircraft as it approached the hills of Grammatikos, the plane ran out of the fuel and crashed nose-up into the mountainside.
www.cyprus-mail.com...

[edit on 18-5-2006 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
As I said, with this exception I believe that the stories of them being alive vanished after the photos being released, apart from the conspiracy sites which would rather ignore that fact as it doesn't exactly help the cause and all.

Where's your proof they are still alive? Ageing BBC articles written in the early stages which were later made redundant not counting of course.

Later made redundant by whom and how?

Look, I was starting to delve into such research, namely of the 7 hijackers that subsequently turned up alive, such as Abdulaziz Alomari, who, when it turned out that he was alive, had the FBI then turning around and changing the hijacker's name to Abdul Rahman Said al-Omari, who also turned out to be someone else that's still alive & kicking, when I came across this:

"In September 2002, Mueller told CNN twice that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers.""

So, I ask, do you or anyone else have legal proof of whom the hijackers were? Has the FBI published any such proof? Has it been cross-verified independently? Has the FBI provided DNA samples from the crash sites or are they making it up as they go along?

Excellent example, from the official flight manifest obtained by the Boston Globe after the attack the hijacker was:

Flight Manifest

Abdulrahman Alomari

Probably why the first one was wrong then.. More info here:

www.911myths.com...

[edit on 18-5-2006 by AgentSmith]

AgentSmith, I realize that the Helios and Pentagon crashes are not the same, but you cannot say that a plane that runs out of fuel and that falls from the sky onto a rocky mountain will leave all of its mass everywhere whereas a plane that goes nose first into a reinforced wall will vaporize. What was the Helios plane doing, about half of Flight 77's speed of impact? So, tons of aluminum hitting a rocky mountain at around 200 mph will remain as tons of aluminum whereas tons of aluminum hitting a reinforced concrete wall at 500mph will almost completely and instantly turn into vapor?

Since this example is not the same, let's also look at the other link I provided, the one of the Airbus that did an 80 degree nose down dive & crash into a field. That one must've been doing 400-500mph upon impact. Still all kinds of identifiable wreckage there; windows, fuselage etc etc. Tons of wreckage. It hardly vaporized.

There is simply nowhere near the energy required from a 500mph crash into a reinforced wall so as to turn 80 or so tons into vapor.

Cant say as im impressed by the extra footage to be honest, all it shows is that "something" hit the Pentagon, it just seems to add more confusion to an already confusing incident.
Alex Jones has an interesting take on the footage, urging caution saying that the government may be with holding the actual footage of a passanger airliner hitting the Pentagon and then releasing said footage at a time when it would do the most damage to the 911 truth movement.
Interesting take on things by our exitable Texan friend.

P.S.
Appologies if that's already been mentioned but i didnt have time to read through the entire thread.

Originally posted by Muaddib
but some people will believe what they want nomatter what the evidence proves. They will claim "what they believe is the truth" even if you can prove they are wrong.

This applies to everyone involved in this discussion.

Think about it....

Originally posted by Jaryn
This applies to everyone involved in this discussion.

Think about it....

True, I think Im one of the few that just thinks it shows nothing conclusive.

Now the Government wants it to show nothing for a reason, distraction, a cover up, to try and discredit conspiracy theorists who say it was a missile and then it makes them look stupid when they later release better videos showing the plane?

Who knows,

Originally posted by Muaddib
The problem that i see, and not only on this topic but others too, is that some people "just want to believe it was not an airplane", and they don't want to hear anything else.... Despite the fact that there were people who saw the plane as it was about to hit the pentagon, and when it hit the pentagon.