President Bush to Militarize Border?

Originally posted by Valhall
It's not the military assisting the border patrol I am arguing against. It is the National Guard.

The National Guard is part of the military. At least according to the Army they are.

www.arng.army.mil...
Even when not federalized, the Army National Guard has a federal obligation (or mission.) That mission is to maintain properly trained and equipped units, available for prompt mobilization for war, national emergency, or as otherwise needed.

The Army National Guard is a partner with the Active Army and the Army Reserves in fulfilling the country's military needs.

Would you like a plug for that hole you just shot in your foot

Also you are assuming he plans on using the national guard which I am sure is true however that does not mean that all of the forces will be from the guard. For all anyone really knows until it is official he may plan on using both active miltary units in conjunction with the national guard units.

[edit on 5/15/2006 by shots]

Next step will be to tear down the Statue of Liberty?


Or just edit it? Who wants tired, hungry masses, right?

Kinda funny that America touts itself as the best country in the world, the most freedom-loving, life-affirming, Christian country on the planet, and yet YOU CAN'T COME IN!!!!!


Watch us from afar and listen to us say how incredible this country is. But get too close and we'll put a cap in your ass, non-whitey. Because it's ours.

Pfft.

You can have it.

I have no hole in my foot, but what you've just proven is that in two separate threads of us arguing this issue you haven't read a single post of mine yet.

There is a significant difference between the impact of using National Guard for a non-emergency open-ended military operation and using the Regular Army. There is a significant difference between using the National Guard for emergency situations and placing them as border patrol in an indefinite manner.

For the upteenth time I repeat, these people have full-time jobs. This is a misappropriation of National Guard troops and it is a trumped up issue blown into an immediate emergency (just like this administration has done on anything they've wanted to ram through the system for almost five years now - National Security is at stake! We have to do it now!) for the sake of diverting attention away from Bush's political sucking chest-wound and being used (like gay marriages were used in 2004) as a political football in an election year.

It's a non-issue which this hemorraging administration is acting like chicken-little about because it covers their political leprosy.

Originally posted by Valhall
I have no hole in my foot, but what you've just proven is that in two separate threads of us arguing this issue you haven't read a single post of mine yet.

There is a significant difference between the impact of using National Guard for a non-emergency open-ended military operation and using the Regular Army. There is a significant difference between using the National Guard for emergency situations and placing them as border patrol in an indefinite manner.

Oh I have read your posts alright and understood them very well. You think he is an Idiot. I on the other hand do not.

And again you are assuming a lot by just guessing at this time and point as too which units he will or will not use. :shk:

Here from the original source article used for this thread





[edit on 5/15/2006 by shots]

So....
Ummm...

Can we expect the "Great Leader" to announce the suspension or repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 tonight?

I mean, "Homeland Security" already views it as a myth.

That to me is the most important aspect of this issue. especially with respect to legal and constitutional powers and precedents.

Wribbit! Wribbit!


.

The latest rumor is 8,000 NG. But only a rumor.

Escrotumus, you mentioned being stuck in traffic as a headache. A much bigger headache will ensue if you are rear-ended by one of these illegals with no insurance and no drivers license.

Someone mentioned the savings if we were to replace 500K of the ii's with Americans. $78 million, if I remember. I personally think the number of working ii's quoted is underestimated by a factor of 10. And I don't think the social costs were included in that $78m.

Illegal immigration is a huge problem. Imo, the first step at addressing it needs to be securing the borders. After that, we can work on the rest of the problems it causes. The main debate here seems to be how to secure the borders.

I'd love to know what Vicente Fox said to GWB when he called him this weekend. Supposedly he was concerned about "militarizing the border".

I wonder how he explained Mexico's militarized southern border?

~~

as i see it, a mere 5,000 N.Guards, does not rise to the level of terming our border with Mexico as a 'Militarized Zone'

the 5,000 number is part of the WhiteHouse Press leaks...

I will wait to hear the Presidents message and the 'mission plan' for the small number of N.Gs that are to be sent there, to augment the existing Border Patrol Agents.

maybe the N.G. units are battalions of UAV & support to be deployed,
and to provide proof of human rights neglect by the govt of Mexico in not addressing the migrating masses heading for the USA.

WOW people it seems like everyone gets stuck on one particular point and can't see beyond it. Nothing new I suppose I just get so freakin sick of it.

I am ALL FOR BORDER CONTROL!

While it is in part due to the fact I am against the huge influx of illegal aliens in this country, people need to realize that BORDER CONTROL is more than keeping illegals out of the country. It's about CONTROLING the often times violent BORDER, that is used by illegals in trafficking drugs and flesh across the border-hense the name "BORDER CONTROL"

Why now? Popularity? Hhhmmm, yeah ok, perhaps, politicians are known for trying to do things, or choosing their timing according to the opinions of them right? But does it really negate the actually need of what they are doing? No.

As far as Bush's timing, well the problem of illegals and border problems remains a growing problem, a GROWING one. So, how bad does it need be before something is done by someone. Some real action.

There are other problems sure, and other solutions as well, but people get so stuck on all the alternatives of what they think should be done, or other problems they think are more important, and truth is, there would be as many if not more people fighting against those decisions and solutions, as there are to this.

There is just no winining in this country. There will be no utopia and very little peace. I am not completely apathetic mind you, and I agree with border control for many reasons that have nothing to do with migrant farm workers.

Not everyone is coming over to work in the strawberry fields Valhal, and the people in Arizona and Texas who are begging for this to be done and support it 100% can explain more thoroughly to you all of their reasons.

When it comes to calling in the National Guard though, I totally understand you Valhall 100% -I can see where you'd ask, WTF?

But then again, it is supposedly temporary until they can train people for the position full time.

Now, being a former guardsmen for the NYANG, if I was activated and given the choice-hey want to go to Iraq, or southern Arizona? I'd take AZ anyday. I really don't know if we have any sound proof that they are rotating troups out of Iraq only to send them to the border, do we? Indeed, that doesn't seem right. Then again, if they just had a tour in Iraq, and were given to the choice to go back...or to the border, what do you think they'd choose.

I do know someone who is a guardsman and was actiavated for a 3 month tour and given the option at the last moment of Iraq or TX . There are options, are you going to begrudge anyone for opting for border patrol instead of a tour in Iraq? Many are welcoming a domestic tour, trust me.

valhall
For the upteenth time I repeat, these people have full-time jobs. T

So you are saying that the ILLEGALS sneak across every 8 hours to commute to and from their loving homes in Mexico?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I was under the impression that they SNUCK across and stayed here. I mean if it is a finite number just making the evening commute, well then I withdraw all of my posts.

I am pretty sure they are coming across and staying at a frightening rate. UNKNOWN, UNDOCUMENTED ILLEGAL CRIMINALS.

[edit on 5/15/2006 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by Jakomo
Next step will be to tear down the Statue of Liberty?

Or just edit it? Who wants tired, hungry masses, right?

Kinda funny that America touts itself as the best country in the world, the most freedom-loving, life-affirming, Christian country on the planet, and yet YOU CAN'T COME IN!!!!!

We are here arguing about people who risk their lives to cross a border illegally, abandoning their country of origin. It must be pretty good here for people to go through all that trouble eh?

If they come here legally, maybe they could, I dunno, get into a college?
Learn a trade that pays more than picking strawberries?!

Or is that why we love them?
Do you need someone to do your dirty work? clean up after you? Cook your food?
Sounds like the proponents of Illegal immigration want nothing more than a servant class, to do their biddng.
Pretty handy, to keep them here in that state, right? A state of limbo.
No real way to further themselves..Cooks and fruitpickers. Apparently thats how
the "friend of illegals" want it!

I have to agree with Valhall that this administration has apparently pefected the art of pushing things through against the wishes (or at least without the full understanding of) the general public. However, illegal immigrants and securing the borders is not a non-issue the way things stand right now.

Note: the below are simply my opinions, if you don't like them, tough!

We are rapidly reaching a point in this society where laws mean nothing at all. In the case of the illegal aliens, we are being told that these "undocumented workers" or "undocumented immigrants" should all be granted immunity and citizenship because they are 'hard workers' and 'good people'. Well, having lived and worked the majority of my life right beside a lot of 'undocumented workers' from Mexico, I can agree that most of them are hard workers, seem uttlerly dedicated to making a better life for themselves and their families, and are all criminals.

If we are forced to accept all these illegal immigrats as legal immigrants simply because they got across the border, then we also should simply open the borders to anyone else that wants to come in and become a hard worker and good person. Of course, if we do that, we should not fine or jail anyone that speeds, drinks and drives, or heck: murders or rapes, as long as they are 'hard workers' and 'good people'!

Either laws mean something or they don't. Either they apply to everyone or they apply to noone. No double standards, no exceptions.

The bottom line to me is: they should go through the full process of becoming a legal citizen or should be deported. No special considerations, none of this, "they've been here for X years, just give them citizenship" Either become a legal citizen or be deported.

Now, for the borders: when someone who is a legal US citizen can be hassled, harassed, searched and spied on by our own government in the name of "national security" and to 'protect us from from terrorists', then something needs to be done to stop the 'undocumented immigrants' (who just might include actual terrorists) from just walking right in.

I'm not going to say we are giving up freedoms because that whole topic is already being argued elsewhere. Instead, I'll say that we are "inconvenienced" in the name of security, but at the same time our borders are not secured and it's not a problem - make up your minds! Either we need all the additional security measures including secure borders or we don't need any of them! - your choice here, I have my opinion on that as well, but that's a seperate rant

Well, I've written and re-written this at least a dozen times...I guess I'll just give up and let the flamage begin.

i think valhall was talking about the NG when quoting, "these people have jobs".

there is no arguing the point that the laws are on the books so its time to enforce them and get on with it. what would you say if i like to murder, pillage, and deal drugs but ohh thats ok because i dont agree with those laws? am i excused because of that? no, im not because they are laws that were made for the safety and security of this country just as the immigration laws were. this is a non issue. these people are criminals and its time to enforce the law.

how long do you all think that they will want to bus tables, cut grass, and clean urinals? 1 year, 2, 5? eventually they are not going to want to do these low end jobs anymore and this pool of so called cheap labor will dry up. its time to roll up our sleeves and do the right thing which is to enforce the laws. if they want to come back after immigrating legally then ill be the first person to call them neighbor and pat them on the back, just like i did to my "little brother" at work that did it the right way. hes a great kid who deserves the bright future he has in store for him.

Originally posted by Valhall
these people have full-time jobs.

They can spend their 2 weeks a year active duty on the border.
They'd be missing work anyways. They can spend those two
weeks on the border and not have it impact their jobs.

trumped up issue blown into an immediate emergency

Illegals are hardly a trumped up issue. They cost Americans hundreds
of billions of dollars. They clog hospitals in the SouthWest so they can
get free medical care - which we end up paying for - and which clogs
the hospitals so Americans and LEGAL immigrants can't get needed
health care. Also, they aren't all nice family types who just want a
better life. Oh sure, many are, but many are not. The majority of
arrest warrents for homicides in Los Angeles and Chicago are put out
on illegals.

Illegals cost American tax payers 69 billion dollars
and 2 million jobs in 1997 alone -

www.carryingcapacity.org...
www.vdare.com...
www.vdare.com...
www.theamericanresistance.com...

Bush gives 1 billion in taxpayer money for illegal alien medical care.
www.warriorsfortruth.com...

www.fairus.org...

www.usatoday.com...

medical services, free of charge, if they claim an emergency need. for care.
www.jpands.org...

EMTALA rewards them with extensive, expensive free medical services
if they claim emergency requirement for care. www.newswithviews.com...

Illegal immigrants badly overuse ERs instead of tapping into
often-free health-care clinics or finding a family doctor.
www.sfgate.com.../chronicle/archive/2006/01/06/EDGU9GHG0S1.DTL

Environmental destruction by Illegals crossing -
(national parks are maintained by .... US TAX PAYERS)
www.desertinvasion.us...

Basic sociology ... a country can only successfully absorb just
so many immigrants. If more come in than it can successfully
absorb, then major problems ensue. For reading on this -
Sociology, 9th Edition (2003) ISBN - 0-13-097763-2
THIS is why there are laws in place. To control the inflow
so as to not over burden the economic of this country.

America should adopt MEXICO's immigration laws. Or should
I say anti-immigration laws. Pres Fox sends millions over the
border to us which GREATLY helps his country. The people
he sends here don't have to be taken care of by Mexicans
anymore. The burden shifts to America. Pres Fox is slick.

Bottom line ... they are all illegal and they are a drain on
the USA.

Mexico's non-immigration immigration policy -
www.mexperience.com...

Below are the kinds of people who can apply for
Immigrant Permits, with a view to taking up permanent
residency in Mexico:

Retirees
Investors
Professionals
Scientists & Technicians
Artists and Sportspeople

Mexico wouldn't accept the tens of millions that they have sent
over the border into the USA. They wouldn't be 'good enough'
for Mexico. But Pres Fox sure makes a stink that he has a right
to get rid of them and push them off on the USA.

[edit on 5/15/2006 by FlyersFan]

spacedout:

If they come here legally, maybe they could, I dunno, get into a college?
Learn a trade that pays more than picking strawberries?!

?! Some of these people are already more highly educated than a lot of Americans. They just don’t speak English quite as well.

What always astounds me is that people seem to think that these illegals are doing crime, and just generally bad people.

A lot of them could teach Americans what “family values” actually means.

As a test: come to Canada, work 14 hour days for 10$ a day, and send 8$ of that to your family back home in the USA while you have to sleep in the dirt and eat one meal a day and see how long it is before you go running back home. These people have it pretty damn hard for the most part.

They’re almost exclusively here to “follow the American dream” and they have the same hopes and dreams and aspirations as you and me. Except, unfortunately for them, they are darker skinned and more easy to pick out of a crowd, for the xenophobes.

And the American South sure is pretty xenophobic.

We are often afraid of what we don’t know, and the less we know about everything, the more we are constantly afraid of The Other.

Originally posted by Jakomo
And the American South sure is pretty xenophobic.

.... or they just don't want to go to the hospital and not be able to
get in because it's flooded with illegals getting free medical care.
(u2u sugarlump for his experiences). ... or they don't want to be
paying extra tax $$$ to support illegals when the money could be
going to take care of Americans and legal immigrants.

There is a difference between illegal and legal immigrants.
I haven't heard anyone calling for an end to legal immigration.
What I DO hear is people calling for an end to illegal immigration
that is putting a strain on our economic system as well as the
medical and police facilities in the South West.

And their schools -
www.fairus.org...

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the
states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal
aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.

[edit on 5/15/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Jakomo


What always astounds me is that people seem to think that these illegals are doing crime, and just generally bad people.

And the American South sure is pretty xenophobic.

We are often afraid of what we don’t know, and the less we know about everything, the more we are constantly afraid of The Other.

they are doing crime, they entered the country illegally and are working here illegally using resources that they dont pay for...enough said

lets keep this intelligent and not play the race card. its been fairly clean until now so lets try and keep it that way eh? ive said it before 1000 times and ill say it again: the people who are against II are against it because of the problems associated with it which flyersfan just spelled out quite elegantly i might add and they honestly couldnt care if mexicans were pink, orange, blue or brown.

if 23,000,000 blonde haired, blue eyed swedish just invaded my country and clogged my roads, used my towns resources without paying back into it and generally broke many town ordinances such as living 20 to a house, etc then it would be no different than it is now. id still be the first person out there shouting for them to leave. this is SOOOO not a race issue.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Some of these people are already more highly educated than a lot of Americans.

I don't think so.

www.freedomalliance.org...
quote from the site - about two-thirds of illegal aliens lack even a high
school diploma. Traditionally low education levels translates into low
incomes and, hence, lower tax payments. This phenomenon also adds
to the overall negative fiscal impact illegals have on the U.S. economy.

They just don’t speak English quite as well.

'quite as well'?? Most don't speak English at all.

people seem to think that these illegals are doing crime,

It IS a crime. They come here ILLEGALLY. That's a crime.




[edit on 5/15/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ANOK
America has a very long history of illegal immigration, nothing has changed other than the medias focus.

I disagree. A steady multimillion flux of illegals is relatively new -- if I remember statistics right, the numbers grew in the last decade... And quantitative changes all of a sudden become qualitative ones.

Look, 3 million people per year is simply not a trivial number. Neithers is between 11 and 20 million that are supposed to be legalized.

What use of new laws if we don't enforce the existing ones? Patrolling the border is one way, prosecuting employers engaged in illegal practices another. Both should done to full extent. As a stop-gap measure, the deployment is justified...

Originally posted by Escrotumus
they honestly couldnt care if mexicans were pink, orange, blue or brown.

You are right.

My daughter is adopted from Boliva. She's 100% Bolivian. She's
brown. She's BEAUTIFUL (I'm a proud mom!). She came here
LEGALLY. My husband is 1/4 Mexican (handsome fella). His
grandparent came here from Mexico LEGALLY. And his dad came
here from Switzerland LEGALLY.

If anyone tries to call me anti-latino I'll have to

Like I said, there are basic reasons that the government admits
just so many people to this country. Economic impact is a major
one! A country can only successfully absorb just so many people.
This is basic sociology. I'll repost a book on this just incase ya'll
are interested - sociology 9th edition - ISBN - 0-13-097763-2


[edit on 5/15/2006 by FlyersFan]

Aelita

Every single person, who is not a native, is the descendents of illegal immigrants imo.
Maybe not technically illegal but definitely morally illegal.

What did your ancestors do to the natives?

They shared their food with them... then killed them, stole their land gave them small pox.

What are the illegals now doing to us?

Taking jobs that Americans won't do, to feed their families back home.
Oh shock and horror.

Before all this media hype did you even give illegal emigration a thought?

You are all being wound up, don't fall for the hype. Stop being so insecure, your own government is far more of a threat to you, your family, your safety and your finances than any illegal immigrant.

What do you think about European illegals, or Asian? You all seem to focus on Mexicans and you wonder why ppl see the problem as a racial one?

[edit on 15/5/2006 by ANOK]