OP/ED: Cracks in the Facade

Originally posted by ceci2006

I'm still going to post my excerpts for people to read. And you will just have to put up with that fact.
...........

Rigth...how could i expect anything better?

Let me do the same thing you do...

Lying Liberals - the Greatest Hypocrisy of the Left?

There is this new book by Peter Schweitzer called "Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy" that is hitting the bookshelves across America. It's a little different when well known and famous liberals walk around saying "you should do this" or "you should do that" but do they walk the walk? Not really in a lot of the cases. This book shows exactly that which explains the title. In comparison to Al Franken's own books (which in one case he didn't really write the book himself), Peter Schweitzer does not dispense these information with dripping venom but lays out the facts. Just the facts' ma'am.

Next, we all know that Michael Moore is completely obsessed with money. Michael Moore is a living, breathing, walking paradox, even to his own movies he produced. He's a multi-millionaire who boasts of wealth as proving his value


"I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire. I'm filthy rich. You know why I'm a multi-millionaire? 'Cause multi-millions like what I do. That's pretty good, isn't it?"

kokonutpundits.blogspot.com...

Do as I say, and not as I do...where have I heard that same phrase before?.... Oh that's right Ceci posting excerpts and links which do nothing more than demean, and make derogatory insults against Republicans...and then she expects and demands for Republicans to response in a civil manner, and not as she does.....

The Other Iraq - the Untold Story

Here is exactly why the MSM do not want to cover this "other Iraq" known as Kurdistan which is located in the northern territory of Iraq. Why the purpose ignoring of the exempt media (for those who do not know what that means, it means the mainstream media (ABC, cBS, NBC, PBS, NPR, BBC, NYTimes, Boston Globe, SF Times, Le Monde....). Any media who think they are above anyone else by not retracting, apologizing or acknowledging their errors in the stories they write or make up stories along the way and practice shoddy journalism. This is what it means to call them the "exempt media" aka MSM.
...............
The Kurdistan Region in Iraq is a good news story that seldom gets told. With a population of 5 million in an area larger than Switzerland or twice the size of New Jersey, it is surprising that this region remains largely undiscovered and commercially untapped.
..............
Voice Over NARRATOR:
Saddam’s goal was to bury every living Kurd…
He failed.

KURD CITIZENS:
“Thank you.”
“Thank you, Great Britain.”
“Thank you.”

Voice Over NARRATOR:
The Kurds of Iraqi Kurdistan just want to say ‘thank you’…
for helping us win our freedom.

KURD CITIZENS:
“Thank you, Great Britain.”
“Thank you for democracy.”
“Thank you.”
ENDS


Freedom could only be made possible with America helping out. We take for granted our freedom but there are people here in America who refuse to help other country obtain their freedom by constantly casting a negative light on Iraq and by constantly smearing U.S. troops with false stories and negative ads. You know who those people are. In fact, you may be one of them reading this. You don't want to share your freedom? Well, most of us do anyway.

Here's another video on "Share the Dream," Choose either "small" or "medium" video length unless you have a high speed connection and a large enough memory cache for the biggest streaming video "T1" connection.

kokonutpundits.blogspot.com...

Jason Haap, aka "the Dean of Cincinnati", serves as a great example of white liberals who can't stand free-thinking African Americans. White liberals are quick to attack African Americans who refuse to follow their lead like slaves.

According to his website, the Dean claims to be interested in promoting "vigorous intellectual discussion" but looking at the front page of his site this morning, it's clear he is nothing but a partisan ideological hack. The Dean is telling lies to distort my record.

blackcincinnati.blogspot.com...

Though Horowitz’s best-selling autobiography "Radical Son" chronicled his transformation from a radical leftist to a conservative Republican, "Left Illusions" allows one to take a walk through his mind, giving insight into his train of evolving political thought and the changes that led to his conversion.

From some of his earliest and unpublished writings to his first publications criticizing the leftist mentality for its inability to come to terms with its own fallacies and contradictions, "Left Illusions" allows one to follow Horowitz through his mental journey from self-described “destructive Marxist” to an American believer.

In this complement to "Radical Son," Horowitz ties together the common childhood fantasies of leftist ideology, including socialism, racism and multiculturalism, under a label he refers to as kitsch Marxism.

“This is a crypto religion,” he explains to NewsMax. "It’s very hard to bring them [leftists] into reality. It rises from an inability to cope with reality in the first place. People have to understand that this is a …Gnostic heresy. These people have invested the meaning of their lives in believing what is essentially nonsense.

“It’s like the people who thought there was going to be a space ship behind the Hale-Bopp comet. Some of them were computer programmers. They were not stupid. Suicide bombers are largely educated people. They’re not desperate. They’re not poor. They’ve had lots of privileges. Orwell had a witty saying, ‘Only a college professor could believe this.’

www.frontpagemag.com...

Go right ahead. Then perhaps you have aided my cause in letting people see both sides of the issue. We'll see what people think.

Good luck with your posts. At least I have the courage to await my punishment with the "red flags" if or when they come. You have not said so.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Go right ahead. Then perhaps you have aided my cause in letting people see both sides of the issue. We'll see what people think.

Good luck with your posts.

Your cause?

You think that before you came here there weren't any other liberals using those tactics you use?...

i know for certain that before i came to these forums over two years ago there were people who were at least trying to let people know" that many of the exagerations and lies which liberals keep proclaiming are not the truth... But of course, liberals being liberals would always proclaim "government agents" or "that was made up by the U.S. government".... among some other claims.

You think that only now by you coming here "now all people can see both sides of the story"?... You think too high of yourself.

You have the typical "I am going to change the world all by myself" liberal attitude. And then liberals talk about Republicans believing to be too righteous.....

Anyways...is too late.

i'll keep posting more and more links and excerpts, and then perhaps between the two of us we can fill up a library....or two....

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

And so do you. But after all, you are the expert.

But the difference with me is that I'm not frothing at the mouth at what you say about me or my posts. You are quite angry if you are going this far to prove a point. I pity you.

In the end, it is all information. And the more informed people are the better.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And so do you. But after all, you are the expert.

But the difference with me is that I'm not frothing at the mouth at what you say about me or my posts. You are quite angry if you are going this far to prove a point. I pity you.

In the end, it is all information. And the more informed people are the better.

Me an expert? I never claimed "because of my cause now all people can see the truth"...which is pretty much what you proclaimed.

and me frothing at the mouth?....

You seem to be the one angry, not me...

in the end liberals and those who don't want to see what is happening in the world will continue to make up claims, exagerate and even lie in order for them to "change the world all by themselves"....

Here is another example of the "liberal attitude" explained by a former liberal.

Even as a child, Horowitz saw himself as a social redeemer who had the knowledge and wisdom to instruct President Harry Truman.

He writes: “I was just ten years old, but I thought of myself as someone who could lecture the president of the United States on the difference between right and wrong, and thus change the course of history. I was just starting out in life, yet was already suspended so high above everyone else. Was there anything I could do but fall?”

And a long fall it was.

Reality Bites


But he did not rejoice with his fellow leftists. Unable to ignore the many horrors he witnessed of his beloved leftist ideology, including the slaughter of millions when after the U.S. abandoned its fight for the South Vietnamese, Horowitz was finally forced into a nose-to-nose confrontation with the truth.

“I simply could not face the possibility ... that I was not going to be a social redeemer, that we didn’t have the answers to humanity’s problems - that I wasn’t part of an historic movement that would change the world.”

www.frontpagemag.com...

BTW, i never proclaimed I was going to "enlighten people" or because of me "people will see the truth" as you seem to believe.

I'm not angry at you. And in the scheme of things, I truly don't care. To me, you're just another poster with a dissenting point of view.

I would even debate with you if you gave me the proper respect. But you don't.

So, go on and post your information. And I will post mine.

And save your insults for someone who actually cares.

And to the member that was saying there is no similarity between Liberalism and Communism...

Here are a few facts.

Pretty much everyone knows that CNN International is "the liberal portal of news to the world". But have you ever wondered who proposed CNN International?

I thank you very much for being here tonight. Let me also thank Fidel Castro. In the earliest days of CNN, when CNN was meant to be seen only in the United States, the enterprising Fidel Castro was pirating and watching CNN in Cuba.
.............
It was big deal for Ted and during the discussions Castro suggested that CNN be made available to the entire world. In fact it was that seed, that idea that grew into CNN International, which is now seen in every country and territory on the planet.

www.nieman.harvard.edu...

Then you have liberals such as Oliver Stone trying to paint a rosy picture of castro...or Alex Jones going to Chavez, a known friend of castro who claims castro is his mentor and the moral image all Venezuelans must follow, "to find the truth about 9/11..... and some of the liberals in this site were calling this a good move by Alex Jones, and "now the truth will be known"...

Liberals have shown time and again that they will resort to anything and everything including exagerating and lying trying to sell their anti-U.S. agenda.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm not angry at you. And in the scheme of things, I truly don't care. To me, you're just another poster with a dissenting point of view.

I would even debate with you if you gave me the proper respect. But you don't.

So, go on and post your information. And I will post mine.

And save your insults for someone who actually cares.

Oh, so now i am insulting you?.... I just did the exact same thing you did... So how come you were not insulting Republicans, including me because i am a Republican, but I am now insulting you when the only thing I did, is exactly what you did?....

A phrase comes to mind.... do as i say and not as I do....

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

No matter. Carry on with your posting. As I will mine. I'm not going into a third round with you.

Right... How convinient that when the same tactics are used against you, you cry "you are insulting me", yet when I was trying to tell you exactly what you were doing, you claimed "I am not insulting you, I am just letting people know the truth"....and other nonsense....

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

If you think so. Fine. Whatever. Do what you have to do.

Here is more food for thought about the phenomena happening in American society:

Bush/GOP supporters and the phenomenon of delusion

First, the overwhelming ignorance of the facts is a primary factor in this collective psychosis. The facts simply are not being accurately reported in the media. In addition, a lack of desire to know the real facts, and avoiding the responsibilities that come with knowing exacerbates the disorder. (The Downing Street 'smoking gun' memo: "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy of removing Saddam, through military action, justified by claims of terrorism and WMD.")

We face a conspiracy of silence from the biased mainstream media, which are very much part of the corporate sector. They are running a propaganda campaign championing the pro-corporate Bush/GOP regime as well as censoring reports of its crimes in the media's ever diligence to not offend their corporate advertisers. For people who form their beliefs on discourse from this source, it is inevitable that at least half of everything they think is wrong. The media lies about facts relating to specific situations, both current and historical, including 9/11. The lies have become so pervasive that they are no longer obvious. (Right wing talk radio, Rush Limbaugh.)

The size of the lie determines its chances of being accepted by the public. Hitler said, "The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell a big one." (Unanswered 9/11 anomalies.) Censorship, brainwashing and intimidation from the media create an environment of passivity and fear in subtle yet powerful ways that keep the delusions going with the complicity of those being deceived. (fabricating bogus intelligence)

As well as this interesting take:

Britt's Third Criteria: Enemies and Scapegoats

The third characteristic named by Dr. Lawrence Britt is identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.

The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the peoples attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice, relentless propaganda and disinformation, were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite spontaneous acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and terrorists. Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

The attention of the American people is diverted and blame is shifted as a matter of course. This is accomplished by re-framing every issue through "spin" and clever use of language repeated endlessly by pundits and party leadership. For example, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, blame was quickly shifted to Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco and even the victims themselves to divert attention from the failings at the federal level. When it became clear that someone in the White House leaked the name of a covert CIA operative, discussion was diverted to her husband.
[...]
The second most frequent target is "liberals", primarily among the Religious Right and the pundits that support them. If you listen to Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, James Dobson or Pat Robertson, you will hear relentlessly that liberals are baby-killers who hate America, coddle terrorists, want to raise your taxes, and are out to destroy Christianity. Primarily this rhetoric has come from the media and Bush supporters rather than the administration itself. However, President Bush did take advantage of this perception in the debates when he pointed to John Kerry and said "he's a liberal". Everyone knew the meaning of that statement and that it was not intended as a compliment. Imagine for a moment that Kerry had pointed to Bush and called him a conservative and you will see the different connotations of the two labels.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Ceci, Muaddib doesnt insult anyone maliciously. He's a nice guy.

I dont agree with him many times but he's always curteous.

Why are we psychoanalyzing both sides repeatedly? We already know who limps with which foot.

Something else for people to think about:

Rick Perstein's article for the Village Voice is interesting because he tries to delve into the inner psyche of a segment of the American population. His final words in the article are quite fascinating:

The Church of Bush

Conservatives see something angelic in George Bush. That's why they excuse, repress, and rationalize away so much.

And that is why conservatism is verging on becoming an un-American creed.

In a review regarding Mark Crispin Miller's book, Hijacked in the Baltimore Chronicle-Sentinel, William E. Betz provides insight why a certain segment of the American population continues to believe the present Administration:

A Government Hijacked
Miller hits the nail on the head in describing how Bush supporters, in this instance, and right-wing activists in general, are able to perpetuate their "dirty tricks" and how they are able to justify their activities in their own minds. The key is projection. Like lawless psychotics throughout history, the Busheviks and Republican evil-doers are able to persuade themselves that they are only doing what their opponents always do, are planning to do this time, and will or would do in the future if they, the defenders of liberty, let down their guard. They are right and their opponents are wrong. They are, they truly believe, motivated by higher values, and their opponents, conversely, are motivated by selfish interests. The Bushevik true believers "project" onto anyone who disagrees with them the same qualities and motivations that they themselves possess. Therefore, if the Busheviks are inclined to steal elections or manipulate the vote counts, or suppress the vote, or engage in any kind of election mischief, their justification is that they are only doing what their opponents do--or would do, if they could get away with it. This is the essential justification in the minds of the people who are coldbloodedly destroying this country--to save it.

Chalmers Johnson in his analysis of the impact of American International policy in Mother Jones says something quite telling about what a segment of the population is willing to believe:

Exporting the American Model
We Americans have never outgrown the narcissistic notion that the rest of the world wants (or should want) to emulate us. In Iraq, bringing democracy became the default excuse for our warmongers -- it would be perfectly plausible to call them "crusaders," if Osama bin Laden had not already appropriated the term -- once the Bush lies about Iraq's alleged nuclear, chemical, and biological threats and its support for al Qaeda melted away. Bush and his neocon supporters have prattled on endlessly about how "the world is hearing the voice of freedom from the center of the Middle East," but the reality is much closer to what Noam Chomsky dubbed "deterring democracy" in a notable 1992 book of that name.

Out of the Washington Post comes an interesting study.



[edit on 16-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by dgtempe
Ceci, Muaddib doesnt insult anyone maliciously. He's a nice guy.

I dont agree with him many times but he's always curteous.

Why are we psychoanalyzing both sides repeatedly? We already know who limps with which foot.

I know, dgtempe. I think that this entire thing has been blown out of proportion. And sometimes, I think that in the quest to pursue an idea, I am a person that doggedly works until my point is made. I'm sure Muaddib is a kind person and I will give him the benefit of the doubt. As jsobecky knows, I don't hold a grudge.

I just would like someone to write an op/ed piece why they support Bush. That's all.

And yes, we do know who limps with which foot.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by ceci2006]

ceci
I have no idea how to write an op/ed, but I will tell you why I support the president, if that's ok on here.

First and foremost, I am an American and he is my president. I believe in the Red, White and Blue, I am patriotic and believe in supporting my Commander and Chief. Corny? Gullible? maybe, but it is how I was raised and who I am.
Second, I have been in combat and watched while people made the hard decisions. Decisions made to send ME into a situation that could possibly have cost my life, and I felt sorry for them. Sorry because I saw what that decision did to them emotionally. It was easier to go out and fight, than have to stand back and decide who lives and who dies. President Bush makes those decisions everyday and will live with them the rest of his life.
I can appreciate a man with convictions. Though I am sure this will make some of you laugh, some mad and others argue, I do not care. I believe that President Bush has moral convictions and has held the high ground under all of the liberal hate directed at him. He has held his head up and made the decisions that he believes are correct. The job I voted him in there to do.
I believe the economy is booming at an incredible rate. That is my perception, when in the end all that matters is our perceptions. I am doing better financially than I ever have and the tax cuts are a true relief to me.
I am not easily swayed by the media. The incredible and sometimes subtle, attacks on the President mean very little to me. As I have stated, anything that any of you can find to point one way, can easily be found to point the other. Links? Editorials? Show me one, I will show you one that disputes it. They are all basically BS ( I abhor using those terms, but it fits). This in mind, I can only rely on what I see is actually happening. I base my opinions on that. Not on what the media tells me I should or should not think. I travel extensively and observe first hand this wonderful country and the effects of our robust economy. (Yes, there are always some doing worse, not everything is perfect) I am speaking the majority.
I am a warrior at heart and believe in taking the fight to the enemy. I have and still serve my country, and support the war in Iraq 100%. I appreciate that we have not been attacked after 9/11 and still have most of our freedoms intact. MOST. (I hate the phone scan, but that is another thread) I love that regardless of the polls or favorableness of His administration, he stays the course. I admire His fortitude.
Final note: I have issues with some of the decisions made by this Administration, yet I understand that he is only the President. One man, one section of the three branches of government. To place everything wrong with this country in his lap, is ludicrous to the extreme, or a complete misunderstanding of how our government works.
I consider President Bush to be one of the finest Presidents in my lifetime. Second only to the Great Ronald Regan.
I have tried to write this without any sniping, snide comments, liberal bashing or other words of hate. I read too much of that on here. The fact that we have different opinions should encourage us to engage in complex conversations and not wind up cutting each other because we think differently. (as so often happens on here) I do not in anyway consider myself an intellect, I just really work at staying up to date with the political "goings on" and the affairs that directly effect me.
So this is why I support President Bush, The United States of America and all that she stands for.

OK go ahead, cut away.

semperfortis,

Thank you for addressing my request in a civil manner. I appreciate the effort you have made in answering my question. I do have something to say, but I'd like to take the time to think about what you've written and answer thoughtfully.

I am glad for your civility and seriousness in your treatment of my question. For that, you've earned my respect.

Your welcome ceci.

Originally quoted by semperfortis
First and foremost, I am an American and he is my president. I believe in the Red, White and Blue, I am patriotic and believe in supporting my Commander and Chief. Corny? Gullible? maybe, but it is how I was raised and who I am.

There's nothing to disagree with here. I am also American and patriotic. And yes, I do have a reverence for the office of the President. However, where we disagree is with the policies of the President and the administration. For example, the President visited the place where I grew up. No matter politically how people stood in town, they went out and saw his motorcade. And then, went to the airport and saw Air Force one. It was an awesome experience because I had never seen such a thing like that before. For that one brief moment, I forgot the corruption that was brewing in the government. I would like to feel that way all the time about the American government. But, unfortunately, current events prove otherwise.

President Bush makes those decisions everyday and will live with them the rest of his life.

I agree with you here too. He does have to make tough decisions that could have consequences on the lives of not just Americans, but international citizens too. I would not want to be POTUS for any money in the world. It takes a special person to withstand all that stress and pressure. But here, the reverence of the office differs with my opinions about his actions.

By that, I don't know whether he has handled himself well in his office. And it goes back to my question I asked on another thread: would you give someone a vote of confidence if they have ran several businesses in the ground? No. He hasn't demonstrated good leadership ability. He has not performed admirably in times of crisis. And, this is especially the fact worth noting that he is the only president that has taken more vacation days than others in his station have ever done.

And I have another question: what would you think of a soldier who had run from his post and refused to report for any orders his CO gave him? That's what Mr. Bush did. He ran from the Texas National Guard because he did not want to take a physical. And then he got out of his service by interning with a politician in Alabama. Wouldn't you say he went AWOL?

I believe that President Bush has moral convictions and has held the high ground under all of the liberal hate directed at him. He has held his head up and made the decisions that he believes are correct. The job I voted him in there to do.

Here too, I have to respectfully disagree. I think his handlers helped him achieve a moral high ground in the public's eyes. And because the media has refused to cover anything negative about him until all the corruption bubbled over the surface, then some of his veneer began to fade. From his days at Yale and Harvard, he has shown a disdain for education. As a governor in Texas, he campaigned using Lee Atwater and Karl Rove as his operatives of "dirty tricks" to undermine his opposing candidate. And he has been quoted that he doesn't think much of the Constitution, therefore he bypasses the laws of Checks and Balances in order to do what he wants to do. If he did have high moral character, he would have made reparations to the Museum of Iraq for all the looted artifacts. He would have immediately gotten off of vacation if he truly had moral fortitude during Hurricane Katrina. And he would have severed his ties with the bin Laden family if he wanted to prove he had no special interests in government. He could have done all these things. But he hasn't.

I believe the economy is booming at an incredible rate. That is my perception, when in the end all that matters is our perceptions. I am doing better financially than I ever have and the tax cuts are a true relief to me.

That would be nice for the upper echelon in society because they do not have to deal with the devestation of the economy. They don't have to deal with job competition. They don't have to struggle to send their children to college. And of course, if it passes, they won't have to pay an estate tax. So, if you are part of that one per-cent, you're lucky. But for the middle class, two jobs won't even cut it for paying the mortgage, the gas bills as well as making ends meet. And the poor are also displaced because they can't find a job. I suppose from your view that you haven't had to see much of the homeless, have you?

You're lucky here too. My parents donate their time serving the homeless at a shelter. And they run into a lot of Veterans down there who complain about the lack of services at the local VA. And besides the Vets, there are the people who have had lost their jobs due to outsourcing. They can't find a job no matter how hard they try. Not to mention those who are mentally ill due to lack of help.




(I have more to say. Part II is in the next post)





[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by semperfortis
I am not easily swayed by the media. The incredible and sometimes subtle, attacks on the President mean very little to me. As I have stated, anything that any of you can find to point one way, can easily be found to point the other.... I travel extensively and observe first hand this wonderful country and the effects of our robust economy. (Yes, there are always some doing worse, not everything is perfect) I am speaking the majority.

Neither am I swayed by the media. In fact, I have a healthy skepticism of it. I believe that it can be slanted to project whatever view mainstream America wants. And of course, the corporations are the ones that actually command what news, entertainment and other fare is out there. It is beyond a political compass. Instead, it serves the highest bidder. What the highest bidder wants is the latest fad. The media rarely covers anything worth of note unless it is hard to hide from the public. And that's the way it has always operated, imho.

I have also traveled across the country and have seen the beauty of places that have benefitted from the corporations. But of course, once you get past the mini-malls, there is the inner city and the shanty towns that somehow don't get the funds those suburbs have. In urban areas, buildings get neglected. Or neighborhoods get "gentrified" (like what they are trying to do to New Orleans in the rebuilding process). People get thrown out of their homes. Rent control is gone. And then only the people with the most money are able to take the flats, condos and other domiciles to live in. Well, you could say they benefitted from the economy too.

And for those pushed out of their neighborhoods? They are swept off into the streets where they don't benefit from the booming economy. Do you ever wonder where they might go?

And I respectfully have to ask, which majority are you speaking for? Of your social class? Of your gender? Your nationality? Your economic class? From your job? Or your region? There are many types of majorities in America. You need to make yourself specific here.

I am a warrior at heart and believe in taking the fight to the enemy. I have and still serve my country, and support the war in Iraq 100%. I appreciate that we have not been attacked after 9/11 and still have most of our freedoms intact. MOST. (I hate the phone scan, but that is another thread) I love that regardless of the polls or favorableness of His administration, he stays the course. I admire His fortitude.

I have a great respect for the armed forces. I have mentioned in other posts that I have relatives currently serving in the military. And I have departed family members who have served in the military before the order of de-segregation. So, I know what it means to devote one's life to the military and what an honor it is to serve for one's country. I appreciate their services to keep our country safe from harm.

But, I respectfully disagree with you about the war in Iraq. I do not believe that all the reasons for the war are altruistic. And I also believe that material gain is involved as a result of the conflicts with Afghanistan and Iraq. I grieve for our dead and wounded soldiers. But I also grieve for the dead Iraqis who have died in the conflict. Especially the civilians--those as Mr. Rumsfeld coyly said in one of his press conferences--referred as "collateral damage". I am sad that our country does not respect the Geneva Conventions with the prisons in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. And I am also sad that our country has violated the Vienna conventions.

Here too, I respectfully disagree with your perception of Mr. Bush's fortitude and moral compass. He lacks empathy in many ways. He has not expressed any guilt for at least the Iraqi civilians who died in the conflict. He has not apologized for the torture of the incarcerated. And he has not expressed remorse for those incarcerated who are innocent.

I consider President Bush to be one of the finest Presidents in my lifetime. Second only to the Great Ronald Regan.

Here, I have to respectfully disagree with you too. I believe that this perception is in the eyes of the beholder. And even in Arthur Schlesinger's poll of presidents both dignitaries do not rank as high. The three most revered presidents are: George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, for obvious reasons. And President Bush will certainly have a place in history and a legacy that will be debatable in the years to come.

I have tried to write this without any sniping, snide comments, liberal bashing or other words of hate. I read too much of that on here. The fact that we have different opinions should encourage us to engage in complex conversations and not wind up cutting each other because we think differently. (as so often happens on here) I do not in anyway consider myself an intellect, I just really work at staying up to date with the political "goings on" and the affairs that directly effect me.

I thank you for your comments and your insight of why you support Mr. Bush. I believe that having this dialogue without bickering is healthy and relevant in many ways. I have often tried to figure out what motivates certain people espousing different politics. And that is one of the reasons I had posted the different views regarding the American society after 9/11.

Your words are eloquent in proving your devotion to this country. And I honor that. And we can agree to disagree on a lot of topics. But, for the most part, I love politics. I engage in discussions because I want to learn from them. And what I strive for most (even though it doesn't always happen) is civility and respect. And you have demonstrated that forthrightly.











[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]