OP/ED: Cracks in the Facade

Define "was" funny one Semper!
Clinton was impeached for "lying under oath." Even thought the majority of the American people supported (likely even could empathize) with him, our Great Republican congress upheld the "letter of the law" and impeached anyway. I'm sure it was a really tough decision for them. As for the myriad of other allegations against President Clinton, I won't go into them here, but you can look it up yourself if you like. The "whitwater" charge was the last remaining investigation, and Clinton was cleared of any wrongdoing there last year, or maybe 2004? Can't exactly remember, and too lazy to look it up. -Wayne

Originally posted by ceci2006
Something else for people to think about:

Rick Perstein's article for the Village Voice is interesting because he tries to delve into the inner psyche of a segment of the American population. His final words in the article are quite fascinating:

The Church of Bush

Conservatives see something angelic in George Bush. That's why they excuse, repress, and rationalize away so much.

And that is why conservatism is verging on becoming an un-American creed.

..........

Riight, riight...so tell me, I am not a religious person, even though I was raised a catholic in Spain, so where do i fit in in your "all of president Bush supporters are religious fanatics"... I also know quite a few engineers from all over the world who would disagree with you, people from Iran, Iraq, Russia, France (yes even France) etc. Yes, it is true that I have also found people who don't agree with what the United States is doing, but those I have met and agree with me are also all over the world and they are not part of your "all of them are religious fanatics"...

Ceci, you are again trying to patronize and belittle those people that don't agree with you, is that all you have to show as proof?

Do you not worship Mr. Bush, Muaddib? Every night you are talking about the virtues of his government. You are his one person "cult of personality".

I simply find it astounding that anyone is remaining in the "support Bush" crowd. While I will always respect the commander 'n chief because of my military experience, I don't have to like or agree with his policies. Within a short (but seems like an eternity) 5 years this man has:


Possibly stole an election, or at the very least was appointed by the supreme court (a precedent that exists neither in the constitution or in our 230 yr history.

Handed out tax cuts (most of which benefited the top 10% of American income earners) at a time when the American budget was "in the black" for the first time in nearly twenty years.

Repealed HUNDREDS environmental laws, as well as allowing his friends in the OIL business to drill in what had formerly been wildlife refuge (some set aside by Theodore Roosevelt!)

Removed the law guaranteeing millions of workers overtime after 40 hours.

Divided our nation more deeply than I have ever seen in my 36 short years

Read "My Pet Goat" while our nation was under the very FIRST attack on our soil under his watch.

Used the fear, and anxiety created by these attacks to institute some of the most frightening intrusions on our freedoms in our history.

Squandered an opportunity to use the "good will" which the world had for us after 9/11 to put together a WORLD coalition, and fight terror from a much broader scope.


Possibly oversaw the leaking of the identity of an undercover agent of the CIA while on a mission to gather evidence FOR or AGAINST our escapade into Iraq as political payback for her husbands lack of support, the investigation is ongoing, and conventional wisdom says Karl Rove will likely be indicted.

Stilted the evidence for "weapons of mass destruction, and told the American people that the intellegince was there to support our invasion of Iraq pre-emptively

Ignored the advice of MANY high ranking generals and admin officials about invading Iraq, and summerily had those not "on board" dismissed.

Supported and sent Colin Powell to the United Nations security council to "sell" this invasion to the world using evidence he knew was possibly an outright lie, and could be described as "misleading" at best.

Ignored the remaining generals advice to use MORE troops, and to not disband the Iraqi military because it could help expedite the recovery.

Troops were sent without adequate body armor, or armor for the Hummers which forced our brave men and women to "scrounge through Iraqi junkyards" to obtain the metal to secure their transportation.

May have been involved in the atttempt by Republican party leaders to "tie up" the phone bank of Vermont's democratic headquarters, the investigation is ongoing...

Ignored all evidence in a manner that can only be described as "crimanally negligent" that hurricane Katrina could possibly be the "worst case scenario" that many meteorologists have feared....The only American president to have oversaw an attack on OUR soil, and oversee the entire destruction of an American metropolis as well.

Created an $8,000,000,000 Federal defecit. and has supported this by borrowing the money from China, a communist country known to have torture and killed unknown thousands of it's own people.

Decided since we have an $8,000,000,000 debt that now is a good time to enact another tax cut, a tax cut which will net the average American income earner ($20-50,000 a year) $20.00

In spite of claims about making us "more secure" since 9/11 over 4,000,000 people have illegaly crossed into America via Mexico, has done absolutely nothing to secure our ports (the most likely place to smuggle in a bomb) in fact attempting to sell control of many of these ports to a middle eastern conglomerate in a country with KNOWN ties to terror.

Instead of common sense things like these we get a widspread program to monitor innocent Americans phone calls, and a database of info which I will never be convinced won't be used in an illegal manner.

Out of words.........

There are a lot of "possibly's" and "may haves" in your laundry list. Pure conjecture. Other items of your list have been debunked many times, and still others are outright bs.

But the most telling point of your post is this:

from Rwearjr
I simply find it astounding that anyone is remaining in the "support Bush" crowd.

Besides being intolerant of other people's views, and implying that they are somehow inferior to the bash Bush crowd, you fail to realize that some things are not as black and white as you see them. It appears that you are easily influenced by the left-wing press and the views of others.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you not worship Mr. Bush, Muaddib? Every night you are talking about the virtues of his government. You are his one person "cult of personality".

No Ceci... I do not worship president Bush....

Again as you keep showing, you can only try to push your idea by patronizing, and belittling those who do not agree with you...

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Muaddib]

So does that mean you hate him then, Muaddib? Or is that patronizing to ask?

[edit on 21-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
So does that mean you hate him then, Muaddib?

WTH???? So according to you you can only either worship or hate president Bush?....

No. The fact is that you defend his administration. The fact is that you find each post I did patronizing and condescending. You put down Rwearjr's post practically saying it isn't true. In fact, everything you describe about Mr. Bush is laced with emotion.

So, I must conclude that you think very highly of Mr. Bush. Or at least you admire the man.



[edit on 21-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
No. The fact is that you defend his administration. The fact is that you find each post I did patronizing and condescending. You put down Rwearjr's post practically saying it isn't true. In fact, everything you describe about Mr. Bush is laced with emotion.

So, I must conclude that you think very highly of Mr. Bush. Or at least you admire the man.

Typical liberal twisting and rhetoric...

You were attacking Republicans, giving excerpts and links which only degrade, belittle and name call Republicans...I happen to be a Republican....

I guess defending myself for being a Republican, after being called names, belittled, and patronized must be the same as worshiping president Bush according to you....

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Okay. The floor is open. Describe your politics so I won't "belittle you" anymore.

Originally posted by Rwearjr
............
Possibly stole an election, or at the very least was appointed by the supreme court (a precedent that exists neither in the constitution or in our 230 yr history.

Again, why are you saying this? because the election did not go as you planned?...

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Handed out tax cuts (most of which benefited the top 10% of American income earners) at a time when the American budget was "in the black" for the first time in nearly twenty years.

www.drozdalaw.com...

www.hslda.org...

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Repealed HUNDREDS environmental laws, as well as allowing his friends in the OIL business to drill in what had formerly been wildlife refuge (some set aside by Theodore Roosevelt!)

Although i do disagree with drilling in certain areas, the standards by which drilling companies, or those companies that provide services to drill companies, have to comply with in the United States, are some of the highest in the world.

If you go to Venezuela, for example, after Chavez got in office, their environmental laws dealing with oil businesses is near to zero. Companies such as Schlumberger have to keep the environmental standards that is used for every country, which is a standard "set by the company Schlumberger", but the government of Venezuela requires nearly no environmental laws to keep. I know of several engineers who have told me as to what happens in oil rigs in Venezuela, and thank goodness that doesn't happen in the U.S.

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Removed the law guaranteeing millions of workers overtime after 40 hours.

Really?....

Strengtherning Overtime Protection

DOL finalized reforms to overtime regulations that will provide more overtime to more work-ers, reduce litigation, and free up resources for job creation. Workers receiving overtime through a collective bargaining agreement will continue to get overtime under the new rule.

■ More Overtime for More Workers: The Department nearly tripled the salary level under which workers are guaranteed overtime, from $8,060 to $23,660, guaranteeing overtime protection to an additional 1.3 million workers. The rule also strengthens overtime protection for 5.4 million workers whose right to overtime protection was ambiguous.

■ Overtime Guaranteed: For the first time ever, the regulations explicitly guarantee overtime protection to blue collar workers, police, firefighters, EMTs, factory workers, construction workers,and licensed practical nurses, among others.

■ Reforms Long Overdue: Sections of the overtime regulations had not been updated since 1949, and these reforms had been on the DOL’s regulatory agenda since the Carter Administration.

■ Reduced Litigation: Overtime lawsuits are among the fastest growing areas of employment litigation today. The current regulations have invited wasteful class action lawsuits that cost the economy millions of dollars and require workers to wait years to be paid the overtime they deserve. The new overtime rules will reduce this needless burden on workers and the economy by clarifying the tests under which workers qualify for overtime.

www.dol.gov...

humm....

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Divided our nation more deeply than I have ever seen in my 36 short years

You mean more than during the Vietnam war?...

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Read "My Pet Goat" while our nation was under the very FIRST attack on our soil under his watch.

Oh yes, an "evil dictator" reading to children, when it wasn't even sure what was happening yet in that tragic day....

Originally posted by Rwearjr
Used the fear, and anxiety created by these attacks to institute some of the most frightening intrusions on our freedoms in our history.

You mean like the same "intrusions" which Theodore Rooselvelt and other presidents instituted in the past.....and we are still with no dictatorship...

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Muaddib]

You know Muaddib that is why I voted you WATs this month.

Eloquent yet compelling arguments with no hint of name calling or the condescending attitude we see on here so very often.

It simply amazes me that the Liberals tout the Dems for "standing up for the common man" when they are some of the richest people on the planet. If the "common man" means so much to them, then why doesn't Kennedy or Kerry send the "downtrodden" a check or two?

Smoke and Mirrors.

About the the Marriage tax-cuts: I think that this so-called relief is too little, too late. Single people are not helped. The elderly are not helped. And you have to get married and have children in order to experience some kind of relief. But that relief would kick in and "sunset" after your report.

I went to FactCheck.org to see whether people benefit from Mr. Bush's "so-called" tax cuts:

Here We Go Again: Bush Exaggerates Tax Cuts
It is true that everybody who paid federal income taxes is getting a cut. But according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center , 35.6 million individuals and families got zero benefit from the Bush cuts because their income was so low they were not paying federal income taxes before the cuts. This number includes 15.1 million workers who are paying federal payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare. That's 15 million "taxpayers" who were left out.
[...]
Taxpayers make out very differently depending on whether they are married or single, and how many children they have under age 17.

That's because much of the tax relief for 2003 comes in the form of a tax break for married couples -- reduction of the so-called "marriage penalty" -- and a doubling of the tax credit granted for each child under 17, to $1,000 per child. Those do nothing to benefit single taxpayers -- including unmarried workers and millions of elderly widows and widowers, for example. In fact, the Tax Policy Center calculates that nearly 13 million of those over age 65 will get no tax cut.

And the Business library at the University of Florida says when the relief will kick in:

Marriage Penalty Relief
"After facing intense criticism for many years, Congress and the White House finally did take steps this year to ease the marriage penalty. Part of the income-tax rate reductions in the law enacted in June effectively ease the marriage penalty slightly for this year. But the most significant relief won't begin until the year 2005, and those steps won't be phased in fully for several years after that, says Mr. Nissenbaum. That's so far from now that it wouldn't be prudent to count on any of that relief.

Just for the record, the new law provides a higher standard deduction and a widening of the 15% tax bracket for married couples, both starting in 2005 and phasing in gradually over several years, according to a new Ernst & Young book. After 2010, the entire new law "sunsets," which means it expires and the relief disappears."

For a fuller picture, Citizens for Tax Justice has a list of downloadable publications which fully investigate Bush's tax cuts. Their FAQ page is also very helpful.

However, in all the rosy viewed hype around marriage taxes, there is no mention of the estate tax. I wonder why is that? Because it only benefits the rich?

And about the "liberal twisting": Muaddib, you do a lot of conservative "twisting" yourself. It's so funny, like the other members of the GOP, cannot keep their facts straight. Anything to save your POTUS from looking incredibly like the "leaker (or liar) in Chief". And like them, you lie to continue your "sunny outlook" to shield yourself from the realities of everyday people.

Or maybe, we're like the "little people" to you.

Or is it that you really believe everything Mr. Bush tells you--even to the point of clouding your common sense?

No...wait....the envelope's to my head like the Great Karnak....oh yes....I can see that in your next post....Muaddib is going to say....that this is "liberal twisting" and lies.....and that it is basically part of the "evil liberal agenda to degrade Republicans".

See? Your responses are getting so predictable that they solely represent a cliche.




[edit on 21-5-2006 by ceci2006]

All I can go on is that I benefited tremendously.

You are aware the welfare program when it first began was only supposed to be a temporary stop gap and get people working don't you?

AS someone that came from a dirt farm in WV to being moderately successful, My voice is quit crying, get up, get to work and stop letting me support you. I came from nothing, with only the clothes on my back, hitchhiking to Salisbury MD, to find a job.

So It can be done, but not as long as the "poor" can sit around, complain about no jobs, never go looking for one and get a check I supply every month. Why are there help wanted adds, if there are unemployed people? Because they do not want to work!!!

GB's Tax cuts have accelerated the economy, helped me and mine, and EVERY single indicator, (Interest rates, Housing, Unemployment ETC) shows the tax cuts working. No amount of BS pulled from the web is going to change the REAL figures. Just go ask Greenspan, now that he is retired he may even answer. Or is he conservative too? He only worked for what? 5 Presidents.

So come on, stop with the internet trash that can be refuted with only more internet trash and accept the economy is not just good, it is GREAT!

Then I am very happy for you, Semperfortis. Unfortunately for the rest of us working joes, the government lets us eat "yellow cake" while gas prices are out of control.

In America, the rich must thank their lucky stars there isn't a man like Robespierre in the streets preaching revolution.

[edit on 21-5-2006 by ceci2006]

But ceci, my point is that the opportunity to exceed is out there for anyone in this country. All it takes is a will and desire to become more and then this nation offers all you need to become anything that your heart desires.

It takes a lot of hard work and that is why not everyone does it. That, however does not negate the fact that anyone can. If their desire is strong enough and they are willing to work to get it.

Rags to riches stories are out there and I'm sure you know a few. This time in economic history is geared to help those that want more and are willing to work to get it. The tax cuts are exactly that. I think that most liberals are upset because it did not increase welfare checks. Is that not what Liberals ultimately want? A HUGE government that takes good care of everyone equally? That is sure what the party platform seems like. Of course Socialism is like that also and it is proven to NOT work.

It's not a perfect world ceci, I am acutely aware of that in my work. Yet, opportunities are there for those willing to reach out for the brass ring.

Semperfortis I agree with almost everything you just said except that your view of what we liberals want is very simplistic;

What we want is this: an equal playing field as much as possible so that everyone can achieve that dream. Welfare, while overdone is far better than putting people out on the streets. A society is only as good as it treats its less fortunate. True there are lazy bums out there but the vast majority want a better future but are either under educated, disabled in some way or are simply not intelligent enough to make their way...what we pay in social welfare is minor in comparison to the benefits in social stablity that it brings. What is better corporate welfare to a multi-billion dollar conglomerate or assistance to a single mom? but weflare is just part of it, there is stewardship of the land so that there is something to pass on to our children, something valuable and beautiful as opposed to a wasted landscape of toxic sesspools...to know what the wild is.
we want a government that is accountable to all the people not just the wealthy.
we want a richer society than we have now and by richer I mean fuller, more creativity, more art, more beauty than we have now.
we want to be respected by the world not feared and foremost we want to achieve the promise of this country as the land of opportunity for all and so many of the republican policies as far as we can see give only lip service to that while pandering to as bush put it, the haves and the have mores.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And like them, you lie to continue your "sunny outlook" to shield yourself from the realities of everyday people.

No Ceci, i leave that to you, you seem to be doing pretty good. Are all tax cuts helping everybody? unfortunately no, but it is at least helping some

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or maybe, we're like the "little people" to you.

Oh i see...so now you are trying to make people believe that I must be rich... I am not rich, I make a decent living and it is because I worked hard for it, instead of pitying myself and trying to blame everything on the government, I just worked hard, and here I am....

Originally posted by ceci2006
See? Your responses are getting so predictable that they solely represent a cliche.

No Ceci, who has become predictable is yourself, excerpting nothing but rhetoric against REpublicans, and then "demanding" for Republicans not to resort to the same tactics you use and expecting Republicans to be civil with you. You expect and demand all this, after all the name calling and derogatory insults which you keep excerpting from other links, and seems to be a signature of yours...

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Muaddib]