OP/ED: Cracks in the Facade

Here is the quote I was talking about.

"A man sometimes starts up a patriot, only by disseminating discontent, and propagating reports of secret influence, of dangerous counsels, of violated rights, and encroaching usurpation. This practice is no certain note of patriotism. To instigate the populace with rage beyond the provocation, is to suspend publick happiness, if not to destroy it. He is no lover of his country, that unnecessarily disturbs its peace. Few errours and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion."

www.samueljohnson.com...

So you are saying that people should not dissent. We should lie down and take it because it is a public disturbance to criticize the government?

One other thing that really seems surreal about the times we live in, is this Guantanamo thing. While I have my plusses and minuses with the U.N. I personally never thought I would see a day when the world council recommend we close an American prison because of torture, and denial of basic rights.
NO, I don't support the terrorists, but when we behave just as they do, then WHAT does that make us? If you were one of the 23 Iraqi women and kids killed for no reason back in November, who would YOU think the terrorists are? Remember these things are being done in OUR name.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

What's scary about that is the fact there is no remorse for Gitmo, nor what happened with the Marines. It's appalling.

Originally posted by ceci2006
What's scary about that is the fact there is no remorse for Gitmo, nor what happened with the Marines. It's appalling.

There's a great article on the lapdog press, and how they are bitching about Bush spying on their contacts, when by drinking the kool-aid over and over they helped us get to this sad point. Here's a link, hope you enjoy. -Wayne
dailykos.com...

While at it Ceci, here's a great video on the aforementioned "liberal media bias" myth. Hope you enjoy.

video.google.com...

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

Originally posted by Rwearjr

You know Ceci, I'm beginning to wonder if ANYTHING will make some of those with their "mind made up" take a closer look at their allegiances?

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

What you see as allegiances may very well be someone who does not take hysterical rhetoric as fact.

In twenty years or so, the history books may very well judge GWB's presidential tenure as a failure. But there will be others who will have the honesty to look at all the accusations made against him and question whether they were fair or not.

Muaddib questions accusations. For that he is labelled as a blind follower and much worse. Unfortunately, he is a Republican at a time when it is unpopular to be one. But that does not change his conservative beliefs. For that, he has my respect.

Some of your own laundry list of accusations about Bush were outright lies. But that doesn't seem to bother you. To you, it's either your way or nothing.

Originally posted by ceci2006
So you are saying that people should not dissent. We should lie down and take it because it is a public disturbance to criticize the government?

People should use peaceful ways to make their voices heard.... Not ask for violence from other Americans....much less when the same people who are asking for violence make up claims and exagerate as to what is happening in the united States...

You gave reports from a woman that was "activelly asking people to violently overthrow the U.S. government" and then you try to use that as an excuse that there is a dictatorship when she is being investigated for inciting violence...

You have also given your own "opinion" as to why you think you are not free... You seem to think that only when a black president is in power you will be free and all problems will go away... Sorry to break into your fantasy, but as I have said many times the color of skin of a man or woman does not make them good or bad...

Obviously you like to resort to lies and exagerations trying for other people to accept your agenda...

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Muaddib]

You think everything is a lie, Muaddib. But then again, one person's lies is another one's truths. As for the VA Nurse who wrote the letter regarding Hurricane Katrina: perhaps she wrote the letter with a little emotion after seeing people suffer in the Convention Center, the Superdome as well as on rooftops in New Orleans.

Were you not affected by what you saw on television? Or was it just propaganda by the "liberal media"?

Rwearjr: Thanks for the links. I am going to check them out as soon as possible.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Rwearjr,

I just have to respond about the DailyKos article. All I could do is shake my head. It is something else for journalists who have been complacent and coddling to the present administration to whine about "being had" now. They don't have the same drive or initiative of reporters in the past. The only reporters that I do have respect for these days are Helen Thomas and Greg Palast. The others are more complicit with the system and don't care.

After reading that text, I am so glad for Democracy Now! and all the other independent media out there that actually cares about this country. The independent press are the ones to be supported now. The rest of the lot have let themselves become pundits instead of being "objective reporters" of the news. And they reap what they sow.

So much for "freedom of the press".

[edit on 22-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Rwearjr

You know Ceci, I'm beginning to wonder if ANYTHING will make some of those with their "mind made up" take a closer look at their allegiances?

[edit on 21-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

What you see as allegiances may very well be someone who does not take hysterical rhetoric as fact.

In twenty years or so, the history books may very well judge GWB's presidential tenure as a failure. But there will be others who will have the honesty to look at all the accusations made against him and question whether they were fair or not.

Muaddib questions accusations. For that he is labelled as a blind follower and much worse. Unfortunately, he is a Republican at a time when it is unpopular to be one. But that does not change his conservative beliefs. For that, he has my respect.

Some of your own laundry list of accusations about Bush were outright lies. But that doesn't seem to bother you. To you, it's either your way or nothing.

Wow, I never said "it's my way or nothing" to anyone on this forum or any other. As for those "having the honesty to look at all of the allegations etc....." You know, us moderates whom for the most part enjoyed the Clinton years, tolerated 8 years of the most venomous, rhetorical, vapid attacks the country has ever seen, setting a new low for American politics. At the same time these "investigations" were occuring, the American people stood by the president at an average over 60% They knew politics when they saw it, just like they do now.

So, don't come whining to us about false accusations........How does it feel when the shoe is on the other foot. huh? There may not always be justice in the world, but ye will surely reap that which you have sown. As for the "great courage" being displyed at a time when "it's unpopular to be a republican" why do you think it's so unpopular to be one? It sure has been vogue for a long time now, so what happened? Did 71% of America suddenly go stupid and forget what a great presidency, and congress this has been, or are 29% stubborn, and put party partisonship ahead of what's good for the country? Which seems more plausible to you jsobecky?

While it's only supposition, I submit to you that the people, albeit rather slowly, have begun to realize they have been duped. That is what began to bring Bush's numbers down to the 40's. Now, people are also beginning to wake up to the fact that not only have they been duped, and Washington has become a train wreck, they are also realizing how corrupt this gang really is. Inept gets you low ratings, inept/corrupt gets Nixon like polling numbers.

29% ???? Face reality Jso, the rest of us are having to do it.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

Ceci: To see ongoing current examples, and exposures of how bad our media really has become, try:
www.mediamatters.org
One of my favorite bookmarks! My apologies if you are already familiar...

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Rwearjr]

Originally posted by ceci2006
...........................
Were you not affected by what you saw on television? Or was it just propaganda by the "liberal media"?

It is a shame that people had to suffer but "asking for violence" is not going to solve any problems...

Again, the Katrina fiasco was in great part the responsibility of both the Governor of Luisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans, who did not follow the procedures which had been put for years in case something like Katrina happened....

The only thing that the present administration could have done is taken the power from both the governor, who did not want any help, and the Mayor of New Orleans...then again that action would have made many people in here scream even louder that "they are living in a dictatorship"....

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by ceci2006
...........................
Were you not affected by what you saw on television? Or was it just propaganda by the "liberal media"?

It is a shame that people had to suffer but "asking for violence" is not going to solve any problems...

Again, the Katrina fiasco was in great part the responsibility of both the Governor of Luisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans, who did not follow the procedures which had been put for years in case something like Katrina happened....

The only thing that the present administration could have done is taken the power from both the governor, who did not want any help, and the Mayor of New Orleans...then again that action would have made many people in here scream even louder that "they are living in a dictatorship"....

[edit on 22-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Exactly!!

Does not matter what he does, they will blame it on him.

We are living in a dictatorship!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes we are. I hope someone doesnt call the Rat-out-your-neighbor call line and turn me in.

If this isnt a dictatorship i;d like to know what it is. What is a dictatorship? Look around you.- It will become more evident soon, but it will not open up any eyes.

We'll all be crossing the Mexican border INTO Mexico.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Then I am very happy for you, Semperfortis. Unfortunately for the rest of us working joes, the government lets us eat "yellow cake" while gas prices are out of control.



[edit on 21-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Ceci, how can you and Rwearjr complain about both hih gas prices and Bush enviornmental record in the same breath?
There has been no new refineries or power staions builr since the early seventies, and right now, as a result of democrat passed environmental laws China and Cuba are currently drilling 50 miles off the florida coast where american companies are forbidden by law from drilling.

Originally posted by dgtempe
We are living in a dictatorship!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes we are. I hope someone doesnt call the Rat-out-your-neighbor call line and turn me in.

If this isnt a dictatorship i;d like to know what it is. What is a dictatorship? Look around you.- It will become more evident soon, but it will not open up any eyes.

We'll all be crossing the Mexican border INTO Mexico.

You have got to be kidding dg...

This is a representative Republic with a group of people who want things different... Like it was in the 90s...like it was in the 80s...like it was in the 70s...like it was in the 60s....

You go back in time and tell me when has there been any group in the United States, or any other country, that was not protesting for one thing or another.....

You want to go to Mexico? If you believe it is a lot better over there than over here, go ahead.

Originally posted by Rwearjr


So, don't come whining to us about false accusations.......

I not whining to "us". I'm saying that you made some false allegations. Stop looking to others for support - stand up on your own two feet.

As for the "great courage" being displyed at a time when "it's unpopular to be a republican" why do you think it's so unpopular to be one?

People aren't exactly flocking to the left, either. Except for those who look to see which way the wind is blowing - like you do.

Did 71% of America suddenly go stupid and forget what a great presidency, and congress this has been, or are 29% stubborn, and put party partisonship ahead of what's good for the country?

You don't know the diffference between a poll that measures a president's approval rating and one that asks whether people have changed their core beliefs.

29% ???? Face reality Jso, the rest of us are having to do it.

Yeah, and if the number was 71%, you'd be on the other side of the fence.

At this particular juncture if one still feels that this administration has acted honorably they must be paid for these defensive stands or just dumbed down beyond any point of redemption. In contrasting Bush and Clinton, Clinton was merely a more skilled liar.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Rwearjr


So, don't come whining to us about false accusations.......

I not whining to "us". I'm saying that you made some false allegations. Stop looking to others for support - stand up on your own two feet.

As for the "great courage" being displyed at a time when "it's unpopular to be a republican" why do you think it's so unpopular to be one?

People aren't exactly flocking to the left, either. Except for those who look to see which way the wind is blowing - like you do.

Did 71% of America suddenly go stupid and forget what a great presidency, and congress this has been, or are 29% stubborn, and put party partisonship ahead of what's good for the country?

You don't know the diffference between a poll that measures a president's approval rating and one that asks whether people have changed their core beliefs.

29% ???? Face reality Jso, the rest of us are having to do it.

Yeah, and if the number was 71%, you'd be on the other side of the fence.

I have already stated Becky that I don't include links to every one of the things I post online, because the information is freely available on the internet. So if i made some "false allegations" against this endearing gentle man, then list them for me to rebut, otherwise quit repeating this over and over.........if you don't it may get stuck in there with those other talking points from Rush "Oxycontin" Limbaugh like "Liberal Media," and "Environmentalist Wackos."

As for the accusation that "I look to see which way the wind is blowing," doesn't this cross the line into more of a personal attack than debate/discussion? While news info is freely available on the 'net. if you want to know anything about me personally you will either have to know me, or ask the NSA.

Would you please explain to me how anyone "changing their core beliefs" doesn't equivocate into "low approval ratings?"

I want to be clear here that as far as I am concerned this is all political discussion, and said discussion can become heated, but pretending that I know anyone's history here, (or their private life) I feel crosses the line into personal attack. I kindly ask that you debate as passionatly with me as you wish, but refrain from such "unknowables" in the future, and I will gladly extend you the same courtesy. -Wayne

For anyone interested, Wired.com has just posted the "full" account from Mark Klein (former ATT employee) about how far (at least to his knowledge) the telecom portion of the NSA wiretapping program has really went. Some may believe this is "ok," but I find it quite chilling. The article, and evidence can be found here:
[url=http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70944-0.html]